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One Piece: Kenbunshoku Reactions

Kachon123 said:
Do you seriously not see the issue in what you're saying?
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There are two positive claims here; that Luffy dodged the beam without using Observation Haki and that Luffy dodged the beam while using Observation Haki.

Both points have logic to them. It would make sense for Luffy to use Haki, as he has used it for a lot less, and Observation Haki does not always have a visual element to depict it. It is also true that there is nobody on-panel verballing stating that Luffy did use Haki, but that is not always required.

If neither positive claim has enough evidence to be 100% true; then the simplest option is to declare neither of them absolutely true.

I can see why some people would see it differently, but that at least makes sense to me.

This is not an attempt at downplay. Luffy still has the feat in either scenario.
 
There is no logic at all saying Luffy used Observation Haki except "he just learned it". Luffy didn't sense it before it was fired, Luffy stared right at it, Luffy quite literally can't sense intent from robots. He didn't sense anything. Observation Haki is completely off the table.
 
Damage3245 said:
Both points have logic to them
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How does the claim that Luffy was using Kenbun have any logic to it? There's literally nothing from what I know that supports that way of thinking, and even though I have asked twice as to what makes you think that, you are yet to answer.
Damage3245 said:
It would make sense for Luffy to use Haki, as he has used it for a lot less,
Click to expand...
That's a very bad argument.
Damage3245 said:
Observation Haki does not always have a visual element to depict it
Click to expand...
This is not the same as Buso. In a case where someone used Buso without Koka, we can deduced that they actually used Buso due to them being able to come in contact with Logia devil fruit users.

We can not do the same here, as there is no Logia user equivalent here to use as a basis. Just because Luffy dodged something, that doesn't mean he used Kenbun. That makes no sense at all.
Damage3245 said:
but that is not always required.
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Right now, it is as you are claiming something that has nothing supporting it at all.
Damage3245 said:
then the simplest option is to declare neither of them absolutely true.
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No. The simplest option would be to pick the option that relies on much less headcanon and assumptions.
 
SnookB said:
To me it makes little difference.
If it's observation haki Luffy calling light too slow, it's LS for Luffy with kenbun
If not, then it's LS reactions for Luffy without it. Regardless, the at least LS reaction is there for Luffy, as it's written, stated and intended.
Click to expand...
Calling kuma's attack slow shouldn't be enough to just give him LS reactions. Especially since he's dodging from a distance, and as a statement it's not Luffy saying "I can react at lightspeed" or anything explictly stating he's seeing the light as slow or something. He just dodges an attack and calls it too slow. Instead, if we want to use the feat, we should just calc it as we would do with any other feat.
 
Kachon123 said:
The simplest option would be to pick the option that relies on much less headcanon and assumptions.
Click to expand...
This is what I agree with, but we have different conclusions on what that option is.


Anyway; I agree with Duedate though that the feat should just be calced.
 
How you gon call something too slow then have reactions like 14 times slower than it?
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You dodged it from a distance, that's how. If the results are so low they're found unusable, whatever toss the calc. But the statement itself is not good enough to just give Luffy lightspeed reactions without anything else.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Calling kuma's attack slow shouldn't be enough to just give him LS reactions. Especially since he's dodging from a distance, and as a statement it's not Luffy saying "I can react at lightspeed" or anything explictly stating he's seeing the light as slow or something. He just dodges an attack and calls it too slow. Instead, if we want to use the feat, we should just calc it as we would do with any other feat.
Click to expand...
he called a project that is confirmed in story and out of it to move at light speed slow.
The implication is very clear cut that light speed itself is 'slow' to Luffy, so his reflexes scale to or over it. It's explicitly stated that their lasers are from the glint fruit, and PX won't fire them any slower. They're robots that shoot to kill.
 
Damage3245 said:
That's still not a specific timeframe. If you want a specific timeframe for Luffy's reactions, you've got to calc it.
Click to expand...
We are not trying to use the feat of him dodging, first because it's casual, second because it's considerably below what he massively upscales from.

You're asking for a calc because then you can go with the simple: "Well, heh, it can't be Lightspeed because look at the result, it's so much lower", which is a red herring to the main point here.

We do not care about the feat, we care about two things:
  • Luffy's reactions massively upscaling from 0.59c even without Kenbunshoku, and adding Kenbun on top of it which massively increases the speed.
  • Him calling a Lightspeed attack slow.

If you don't want to agree that's enough evidence, just declare your disagreement.
The line is all that matters, you keep insisting on a calc for the feat for no discernable reason, which, again, is a red herring so you have a new argument to use I presume.
 
Agnaa said:
We are not arguing for FTL reactions, we are arguing for SoL reactions.

If he sees light as slow, that would be FTL. Iihiko is FTL for calling Medaka's ability to move at the Speed of Light the "mysterious trick of moving slowly" (right after casually dodging). I can't see "slow" as meaning it's the exact same speed as you, while not being open to the possibility that Luffy could be somewhat slower.
Click to expand...
That's a interpretation. He doesn't need to see it in slow motion to call it slow. A punch as fast as me would be slow if I have an ability to read movements as well.
That's why we're saying he should have LS reactions.
 
A character reacting to light can be slower than it, be it thanks to aim dodging or distance playing a factor.
A character dodging light and specifically refering to its speed as 'SLOW' shouldn't be viewed as slower based on their own statement. That's the whole point.

Luffy didn't factor in distance, aim-dodging or anything like that. He looked at the laser and called it slow flat out. LS is slower than Luffy's reflexes, plain and simple
 
SnookB said:
Luffy didn't factor in distance, aim-dodging or anything like that. He looked at the laser and called it slow flat out. LS is slower than Luffy's reflexes, plain and simple
Click to expand...
When did Luffy mention his own reflexes?
 
Luffy cannot precog the pacifista...

They have no emotions or mind to read...
0560-006.png

五感を研ぎ澄まし気配を悟る!
周囲にいる生き物の気配や、感情の動きをも察する覇気である。戦いにおいてだけでなく、危険を予見し回避するにも有効だ!

Sharpen your senses and realize the presence!
It is a high spirit that detects the presence of creatures around you and their emotions. It is effective not only in battle, but also in foreseeing and avoiding danger!
Click to expand...
相手の心を読み、次に取る行動を感知!敵の攻撃を避けたり、動きを予見して攻撃を当てるなど、様々な状況で応用可能な能力だ。

Read the mind of the opponent and sense the next action to be taken! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
MonkeyOfLife said:
Obs haki isn't just precog, it enhances all of your senses and more...
236-237.jpg



Also it makes sense that those who dislike or are consistently against one piece at all times every time I see them, be the one who disagrees... That shouldn't be a thing. They are here to disagree and nothing else, even if proof is brought up they will just stay quiet which is a trash/toxic environment to be in... That's how I see it 🤷‍♂️
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I would like to add onto this, but in the usopp scene we see that when he first gets it he can see farther and more clear. It's never shown or stated to help you see the future like some may say.
 
Trax said:
I would like to add onto this, but in the usopp scene we see that when he first gets it he can see farther and more clear. It's never shown or stated to help you see the future like some may say.
Click to expand...
Read Luffy vs Hody
Or Rayleigh explaining haki
Or.. Luffy vs Katakuri-

Far sight is just one of its abilities
 
Trax said:
I would like to add onto this, but in the usopp scene we see that when he first gets it he can see farther and more clear. It's never shown or stated to help you see the future like some may say.
Click to expand...
Read
五感を研ぎ澄まし気配を悟る!
周囲にいる生き物の気配や、感情の動きをも察する覇気である。戦いにおいてだけでなく、危険を予見し回避するにも有効だ!

Sharpen your senses and realize the presence!
It is a high spirit that detects the presence of creatures around you and their emotions. It is effective not only in battle, but also in foreseeing and avoiding danger!
Click to expand...
相手の心を読み、次に取る行動を感知!敵の攻撃を避けたり、動きを予見して攻撃を当てるなど、様々な状況で応用可能な能力だ。

Read the mind of the opponent and sense the next action to be taken! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This is from Databook... Observation haki can do many things
 
Kachon123 said:
Read Luffy vs the Boa sisters.
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That one boa sister is the only exception. She probably had advanced observation . But it wasn't established at that point.
SnookB said:
Read Luffy vs Hody
Or Rayleigh explaining haki
Or.. Luffy vs Katakuri-

Far sight is just one of its abilities
Click to expand...
Luffy vs katukuri thats adv version, rayleigh explained about presence but in wci then he starts talking about future sight. And luffy vs hody doesn't say nothing about seeing the future.
 
Trax said:
That one boa sister is the only exception. She probably had advanced observation . But it wasn't established at that point.

Luffy vs katukuri thats adv version, rayleigh explained about presence but in wci then he starts talking about future sight. And luffy vs hody doesn't say nothing about seeing the future.
Click to expand...
Zoro vs Hody's water bullets
Luffy tapping into baseline observation accidentally and foreseeing his arms getting lopped off
Enel's mantra being also baseline observation and is shown to be basically precognition and mind reading to an extent

Not the thread for it, but just read the haki page tbh. There's likely more examples there
 
SnookB said:
Zoro vs Hody's water bullets
Luffy tapping into baseline observation accidentally and foreseeing his arms getting lopped off
Enel's mantra being also baseline observation and is shown to be basically precognition and mind reading to an extent

Not the thread for it, but just read the haki page tbh. There's likely more examples there
Click to expand...
Wasn't enel reading minds and that's why he was able to and not because he was able to read the future.
Luffy didn't use observation haki though or accidentally used it. Either A mihawk shown him or B Luffy was terrified because he already faced mihawk previously so he knew it was going to happen.

Zoro vs hody, he didn't see the future in the whole fight or was stated to. All that was said was the water drops were turning into arrows because he was able to see it with observation haki.
 
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