One Piece: Kenbunshoku Reactions

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think "too slow" means "I see that object in slow motion" or "I can run more quickly than that object". I think it just means "that attack is too slow to hit me", which can happen even if you're several times slower.

If the line was more specific I'd be okay with FTL reactions. But it isn't, so I'm not.

We are not arguing for FTL reactions, we are arguing for SoL reactions.

The line is "That's slow", not "too slow". (Although it varies between scanlations). Your interpretation of the line is very presumptuous. Luffy just called the beam slow while looking directly at it, just Occam's Razor it to him considering said beam slow and be done with it.

We are not saying Luffy sees the beam in slow motion.
Nor are we claiming Luffy can "run faster than it". I do not know where you even got these ideas from, presumably from the notion that we were trying to get a FTL rating.

One does not simply consider something slow if it's twice as fast as their reaction. Furthermore, after the Timeskip, Luffy's reaction speed upscales massively from his past self, which was already a whopping 0.59c. The gap is relatively little giving how much faster Luffy is, thus, I believe the evidence here is sufficient to argue this.

Trying to, again, dance around the line's meaning seems very disingenuous.

 

[Damage3245]

That's still not a specific timeframe. If you want a specific timeframe for Luffy's reactions, you've got to calc it.

 

[Agnaa]

We are not arguing for FTL reactions, we are arguing for SoL reactions.

If he sees light as slow, that would be FTL. Iihiko is FTL for calling Medaka's ability to move at the Speed of Light the "mysterious trick of moving slowly" (right after casually dodging). I can't see "slow" as meaning it's the exact same speed as you, while not being open to the possibility that Luffy could be somewhat slower.

The line is "That's slow", not "too slow". (Although it varies between scanlations).

I know enough Japanese to check something like that, if anyone can provide the raw scan, to settle this dispute.

Your interpretation of the line is very presumptuous. Luffy just called the beam slow while looking directly at it, just Occam's Razor it to him considering said beam slow and be done with it.

I don't think he was looking directly at the front end of the beam. From the way it grows smaller, it seems like the front of the beam was well past his head in that panel.

Trying to, again, dance around the line's meaning seems very disingenuous.

I'm sad that you see my actions in that light, but I can't tell why they would, so there's not much I can do to rectify it.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I don't think "too slow" means "I see that object in slow motion" or "I can run more quickly than that object". I think it just means "that attack is too slow to hit me", which can happen even if you're several times slower.

If the line was more specific I'd be okay with FTL reactions. But it isn't, so I'm not.

When the strawhats were at that island they had problems with the pacifistas and their lasers pre timeskip
Link
And now currently, luffy and the Monster trio (sanji and zoro) is here to showcase their power with what they have learnt and improved from the timeskip of the 2 years of them fully training themselves to get stronger so that situation doesn't happen anymore
Link
What luffy is saying is literally calling the lasers too slow for him now especially via having gained obs haki

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The line is "That's slow", not "too slow". (Although it varies between scanlations).

I know enough Japanese to check something like that, if anyone can provide the raw scan, to settle this dispute.

Not sure why my thing can't extract the texts

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah so that's just a slangy way of saying "Slow...."

It could fit with either of our interpretations, really; what it precisely means is quite dependent on context.

 

[SnookB]

"Luffy literally called the speed of light itself slow."
"But what if he didn't tho"
Y'all

Stop CREATING YOUR OWN INTERPERTATIONS. Oda wrote down Luffy calling light slow and you're making things up to fit your reasoning. It's that simple. There's literally no reason to take it as anything but what's blatantly given in context.

 

[Agnaa]

I think my arguments were a bit more nuanced than "what if he didn't tho", no-one's pointed out anything that I've made up, and I've looked at context that people who believe this feat to be SoL haven't responded to (the front end of the beam appears to have gone far past Luffy's head in the panel where he says that).

 

[Nierre]

It is very insane how something so obvious can be so controversial for One Piece threads. You never see this shit anywhere else. It's very mind boggling to me.

#MonkeyOfLifeWasRight

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Mh

 

[SnookB]

I think my arguments were a bit more nuanced than "what if he didn't tho", no-one's pointed out anything that I've made up, and I've looked at context that people who believe this feat to be SoL haven't responded to (the front end of the beam appears to have gone far past Luffy's head in the panel where he says that).

It's literally boiled down to 'what if he didn't.
He used Kenbun to sense LS
He called LS too slow compared to his kenbun

Any other interpertation is literally made up, false and goes entirely against the literal contexntual narrative written on the page itself.

 

[Damage3245]

He called LS too slow compared to his kenbun

You're literally making up your own interpretation too.

Don't pretend that everyone with a slightly different perspective to you is just reading an entirely different manga.

 

[SnookB]

Mh

Arc's first post there speaks my mind. No offense, but it's SO OFTEN that I see an argument against One Piece it's hypotheticals that choose to go against what's black in white and in your face.
This rabbit hole of Maybes and What ifs needs to go. Either stick to what's given or don't argue it at all.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; if manga only ever had a single interpretation of what happens in the pages, there would never be any arguments or disagreements.

But that's just not how it works.

 

[SnookB]

You're literally making up your own interpretation too.

Don't pretend that everyone with a slightly different perspective to you is just reading an entirely different manga.

if manga only ever had a single interpretation of what happens in the pages

I say what I see. I don't come up with an interpertation that isn't there for the sake of hypotheticals. The only things I agree should be left for the anime are timeframes, not statements that are in your face. Timeframe interpertations differ for extremely obvious reasons, but STATEMENTS are statements.
If someone said a character that consistently tracks LS moves at the speed of light you're not going to go asking 'but what if he's only moving so fast that character A BELIEVES he's doing that?" That's going against what the author interpertation itself is.

 

[KingTempest]

#1 Yall assumed he even used Kenbun in that instance which is the funny part, the only reason why I said it wasn't Kenbun is because yall are too petty to admit it's not Kenbun, so let's delete the "interpretation" argument right here.

#2 The mf looked at a laser and said it's too slow. There is quite literally nothing else that even moved in that instance to be called too slow.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest Can we stop the accusations of pettiness please?

 

[KingTempest]

My apologies, but when we wanna force one interpretation (he used Kenbun) then everybody gotta fall in line, but when we wanna force another interpretation (the laser was slow), then all interpretations are free.

I won't call it double standards or anything, but let's look at what we have and not shove the "interpretations" argument when it benefits us.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't want to force this; I just think it is likely that he used Kenbenshoku Haki. I don't recall saying that was the only possible interpretation of that scene.

 

[Veronica]

What if Luffy gets blitzed by Kizaru in the future?

 

[Damage3245]

What if Luffy gets blitzed by Kizaru in the future?

We'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

 

[Veronica]

We'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

What about chapter 1059 mountain slicing feat and BB unable to react or tank it

 

[Damage3245]

What about chapter 1059 mountain slicing feat and BB unable to react or tank it

That's from a chapter that isn't out yet; we don't have revisions for chapters that aren't out yet.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Use the general discussion for such questions

 

[Veronica]

That's from a chapter that isn't out yet; we don't have revisions for chapters that aren't out yet.

I have read the entire chapter. What do you mean it isn't out?

 

[KingTempest]

I have read the entire chapter. What do you mean it isn't out?

He means officially.

Regardless, yeah that chapter is useless to this thread

 

[Arnoldstone18]

(Especially when Luffy could see the Pacifista directly in front of him charging the beam to fire at him)

he dodged after it was fired and after it travelled a considerable distance anyway (anime)

 

[Eminiteable]

What if Luffy gets blitzed by Kizaru in the future?

Didn't happen with Shanks

 

[Kin201]

I agree that Luffy did use Observation Haki in that instance and he did call light slow, not the Pacifista. I think that is what most people agree with as well.

 

[KingTempest]

I'll never understand why we even consider it that he used Observation atp, but regardless atp idm to me

 

[Kachon123]

I'm confused how people even got the idea that he used Kenbun. it was never stated, implied, or even shown. All we see is Luffy dodging the beam and calling it slow.

In this same arc, when Luffy uses Kenbun it was made made extremely clear that he was using it.

 

[Nierre]

#1 Yall assumed he even used Kenbun in that instance which is the funny part, the only reason why I said it wasn't Kenbun is because yall are too petty to admit it's not Kenbun, so let's delete the "interpretation" argument right here.

#2 The mf looked at a laser and said it's too slow. There is quite literally nothing else that even moved in that instance to be called too slow.

Wait that wasn't Kenbun??

 

[Damage3245]

I'm confused how people even got the idea that he used Kenbun. it was never stated, implied, or even shown. All we see is Luffy dodging the beam and calling it slow.

In this same arc, when Luffy uses Kenbun it was made made extremely clear that he was using it.

The biggest difficulty with Kenbun Haki is that there is no visual element to it being used most of the time unlike Armament Haki or Conqueor's Haki which are way more obvious in the signs when they are used.

The implication is in how casually he dodged, along with the knowledge that he is an experienced Kenbun Haki user at this point.

 

[Kachon123]

The biggest difficulty with Kenbun Haki is that there is no visual element to it being used most of the time unlike Armament Haki or Conqueor's Haki which are way more obvious in the signs when they are used.

The implication is in how casually he dodged, along with the knowledge that he is an experienced Kenbun Haki user at this point.

So if we're not 100% sure due to it not being made clear, then why do we assume Luffy used Kenbun then?

If it's not made clear in any way, then it's much more likely that Luffy just did not use Kenbun.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kachon123 I don't see how that makes it more likely that he didn't.

 

[Agnaa]

Is whether he used Kenbun here or not relevant to the thread?

 

[KingTempest]

Is whether he used Kenbun here or not relevant to the thread?

Yeah, it removes it from his "Kenbunshoku" reactions and makes it his own self reactions

 

[Agnaa]

I'm just going off of the Haki page, but isn't Kenbun's relevant function here just precog? It's not like it's a stat amp. It shouldn't give a higher speed rating regardless.

"Reaction speed" is just how quickly you can move in a short burst that isn't useful for attacking.

"Perception speed" is just how long it takes from something being perceptible to you, and your brain processing it.

Precog would have no effect on either of those.

 

[Duedate8898]

I mean if this is just about Luffy's base reactions, then wouldn't he need a calc instead of just assuming lightspeed?

 

[KingTempest]

I'm just going off of the Haki page, but isn't Kenbun's relevant function here just precog? It's not like it's a stat amp. It shouldn't give a higher speed rating regardless.

"Reaction speed" is just how quickly you can move in a short burst that isn't useful for attacking.

"Perception speed" is just how long it takes from something being perceptible to you, and your brain processing it.

Precog would have no effect on either of those.

Not just precog, they can react to things much faster than they're capable of reacting to regularly. It's a reactions amp.

Tied to the reactions page, not reaction speed

Isn't that combat speed?

Reaction speed has been turned into speed of reacting to movements, so small dodges or blocks, and it's usually scaled to combat speed when people can combat others' reaction speed