One Piece High 7-A Field Day (Wano+ Edition)

[KingTempest]

I gave Zoro the At Least since he used 1 sword to massively upscale from a Mountain+ character and he has larger and stronger techniques that we haven't seen yet, then those that scale off him get the rating as well.

• Wano-Arc Roronoa Zoro
  • Attack Potency: At least Large Mountain Level (Cut through and drew blood from Scratchmen Apoowith Ittoryu).
    • He would have to massively upscale from Mountain+ regardless since it was a one shot. The at least is because he only used one sword.

This is the reasoning I put in the OP. I apologize for not making it more clear.

Are we really going to upgrade Zoro from 377 to H7A from a single attack against someone who isn't even commander level? But Cracker and Katakuri still need a 7A+ end and Doffy may have his H7A end removed for being mostly unable to damage Boundman? Are we really going to give Zoro stats comparable to Luffy for defeating Apoo? Yeah, Zoro > Katakuri, lets go.

This wiki doesn't follow the "commander level" BS.
In the other thread we were about to put Dressrosa Gear Fourth Luffy on the same tier as the Primary Color Admirals just because they "can't" scale to Yonko and we made them High 7-A.

And I'm seriously confused why you're mad that someone scales to High 7-A in an arc where everybody and their grandmother is hurting Kaido, who's 6-C.

Luffy has a solid number, and his Wano rating for Gear Fourth would be 1.65 Gigatons. Zoro overall would be baseline High 7-A (just around 1 Gigaton) overall for 1 shotting a Mountain+.

Also.
Zoro was 377 Megatons.
For one shotting someone who sits at 377 Megatons.
Does that even sound right?
Why would he scale to someone he one shot?

The people with this reasoning will be the people who keep everyone outside of the Yonko at 7-A. Watch EOS Zoro still be 7-A+ for reasons like this.

While I could see a serious Zoro upscaling to High 7-A, I don't think that's enough for him to warrant an "At least".

I'm pretty sure X-Drake would also just be At least 7-A+.

I understand your standpoint, High 7-A it is.

I'm not sure I agree with X Drake's profile; I guess I do see the justification for his at least 7-A+ since Luffy didn't use gear third and he already should upscale to 7-A+ for pressuring Apoo & scaling to Ulti. But, I'm not sure the Zoro he fought was the same serious Zoro who one shot Apoo.

Good point. I can remove the Zoro portion, but the rest is fine?

Everybody:
I've explained my points left and right. I'll update the OP with edits from the thread and I'll revise the conclusion.
But saying "no" and "that doesn't make sense" and "opinions" is stupid.
The current profiles have been given the lowest possible ratings cause of casual feats.
Now we have a scaling chain that puts them a tier above and all I see is "too high, that doesn't make sense" left and right.

It's sad that people are fine with the verse sitting at 377-420 for the entire damn show

 

[Dr.Fix]

@KingTempest thank you for summarizing.

We scale characters off of their feats. We do not scale characters off of individual user biased perceptions of how much effort the character used to give substantially higher ratings.

Again, I think @CinCameron20 makes the most sense and this thread is heavily based on opinion.

@Damage3245 & @CinCameron20 What do you think is an appropriate rating for Zoro? 7-A+, At least 7-A+, or higher? Do you think Apoo's durability should scale to his music feat against Luffy? Lastly, do you think his being preoccupied with Drake had any effect on his ability to tank this attack and if so how much?

 

[XDragnoir]

First, my bad, i was upset for irl things, sorry if i offended someone with my previous post.

Firstly it would be due to Zoro massively up scaling from Mountain+, being able to one shot characters who upscale from other Mountain+ characters upon getting remotely serious with a Ittoryu based attack's, and the other styles are stronger.

It makes no sense to Zoro be full H7A and Apoo (who blocked his initial attacks as well as Hybrid Drake's who is above Apoo in the Beast Pirates ranking) to be simply 7A+, but if everyone is H7A then this tier which should be exclusive to very high tiers and top tiers, would have Apoo who is two ranks below the Commanders.

And my problem isn't just H7A Zoro, but Zoro being "H7A while serious, higher with Santoryu Ogi, even higher with Ashura", while Luffy is 377 even while serious and needs his strongest forms to reach H7A.

And we're also proposing getting rid of 7-A+ for Commanders

Fix and Cameron seem to disagree with it's removal.


@Eminiteable

Zoro does not need to fight Katakuri, but giving him Katakuri level stats for fighting someone who isn't even close to Jack in power seems really wrong to me, when Zoro fights Queen, King, Kaido or whatever, i will not say anything against H7A Zoro at base, but he has yet to face a Tobiroppo.

@KingTempest

IMO, pre Enma Zoro should be 420 with secret techniques for one shoothing Pica, higher or 7A+ with Ashura due to being a whole level above everything else he has, while post Enma would be 377-420 normally, 7A+ with secret techniques and H7A with Ashura, but you guys are literally trying to get him H7A while serious (possible even without using secret techniques due to not saying "shishi sonson"), i can't agree with that. Also, when i first heard about the 6C downgrade i thought everyone would become 6C (Mihawk, Marco, Garp, Sengoku Admirals, Yonkou), but due to not being able to use "commander level, yonkou level" logic, we ended with (iirc) H7A, likely 6C admirals.


Also, if we go by the one shot route, G3 is H7A for one shooting Page One (someone higher in rank than Apoo and focused in defense due to being an Ancestral Zoan), and Yamato damaged Ulti even more (who is comparable or may even be stronger than Page One due to being older, tho the latter isn't much supported)

 

[Eminiteable]

Who's to say Jack or the Tobi Roppo are that far above Apoo to begin with? X Drake needed his hybrid form and even he couldn't break through Apoo's guard, when he's presumably one of the stronger flying six, yet, Zoro one shot this same person.

And in fact I think we need to clear up the flying six and calamities scaling above Apoo, Apoo is an informant for the Beast Pirates & the leader of the Numbers. He holds a unique rank which doesn't fall in line with the headliners and by extension the Tobi Roppo.

Baseline High 7-A and baseline 7-A+ is less than a 2 times difference, it's incredibly fair to assume Zoro one shotting Apoo (who should scale above baseline since due to what he did to base Luffy) using his weakest sword style is at the very least a 1.8 times increase.

Also Luffy never one shot Page One, he almost dislocated his jaw, I think it's a bit silly to compare these two cases.

 

[Damage3245]

who should scale above baseline since due to what he did to base Luffy

What do you mean? How does this affect his durability?

 

[Eminiteable]

I'm assuming his AP isn't some amped version of his regular stats & typically we usually scale AP to durability if there's nothing contracting it.

Although if that's not the case then Apoo's durability would still scale to 7-A+ via blocking X Drake who should upscale there himself in hybrid.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm assuming his AP isn't some amped version of his regular stats & typically we usually scale AP to durability if there's nothing contracting it.

We do not, unless there is a reason for it like Newton's laws.

 

[XDragnoir]

Apoo was interested in becoming a Tobiroppo, and we know being stronger than someone else is how you get a higher rank in the beast pirates, meaning Apoo not only wanted more than what his position granted him, but wasn't instantly put in the F6 with his strength, even tho he massively damaged a H7A (the tier Luffy will be if we keep scaling his dura to Katakuri even after removing the 7A+ end from him, tho Luffy wasn't using haki or even on guard when Apoo damaged him), while Drake is one of them and is likely the strongest.

 

[KingTempest]

Zoro does not need to fight Katakuri, but giving him Katakuri level stats for fighting someone who isn't even close to Jack in power seems really wrong to me, when Zoro fights Queen, King, Kaido or whatever, i will not say anything against H7A Zoro at base, but he has yet to face a Tobiroppo.

Zoro scales above X Drake, who is a Tobiroppo. He one shot Apoo who was matching a hybrid Drake. He broke through his Tonfas that was taking hits from a Hybrid X Drake. He should scale. Zoro has one shot everybody he fought post timeskip except Denjiro, who can wound Kaido.

@KingTempest

IMO, pre Enma Zoro should be 420 with secret techniques for one shoothing Pica, higher or 7A+ with Ashura due to being a whole level above everything else he has, while post Enma would be 377-420 normally, 7A+ with secret techniques and H7A with Ashura, but you guys are literally trying to get him H7A while serious (possible even without using secret techniques due to not saying "shishi sonson"), i can't agree with that.

I would give him 7-A+ normally for one shotting a Mountain+.
Pica is 377 Megatons.
Mountain+ starts at 550 Megatons.
The Attack Potency page says this.

"+" symbol​

Currently misused to an extraordinary degree on the wiki, the "+" symbol should be used when the Attack Potency has been calculated to be greater than the average (arithmetic mean) of the high end energy level and low end energy level of a particular tier.

The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

550/377 = 1.46. Zoro should've been Mountain Level+ off of that alone.
Damage suggested just put him High 7-A overall w/ boost and such, which I can live with.

Also, if we go by the one shot route, G3 is H7A for one shooting Page One (someone higher in rank than Apoo and focused in defense due to being an Ancestral Zoan), and Yamato damaged Ulti even more (who is comparable or may even be stronger than Page One due to being older, tho the latter isn't much supported)

Luffy didn't hurt Page One badly. He didn't even crack his chin. His pain was a comedy moment for Christs sake.
But if people wanna give G3 High 7-A, I'll take it. The only thing is that Gear Fourth would be High 7-A+, and one power boost would put him to Island level, which everyone would hate.

 

[Damage3245]

From what I'm getting from this, we should probably leave Zoro's first two keys intact but give him a new one for the Onigashima Raid. Call it a Post-Training key if need be.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, I'll be revising the OP. I'll take off the Killer and Kid scaling to High 7-A just for extra justification for 7-A+ Dura for Apoo (for tanking Kid's attack).

From what I'm getting from this, we should probably leave Zoro's first two keys intact but give him a new one for the Onigashima Raid. Call it a Post-Training key if need be.

I said this in my last message, but should Zoro upscale from Pica putting him at Mountain+?

I would give him 7-A+ normally for one shotting a Mountain+.
Pica is 377 Megatons.
Mountain+ starts at 550 Megatons.
The Attack Potency page says this.

"+" symbol​

Currently misused to an extraordinary degree on the wiki, the "+" symbol should be used when the Attack Potency has been calculated to be greater than the average (arithmetic mean) of the high end energy level and low end energy level of a particular tier.

The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

550/377 = 1.46. Zoro should've been Mountain Level+ off of that alone.

 

[Damage3245]

The thing is, Zoro has a 7-A calc for his feat in that arc. I'm not a huge fan of overuse of upscaling/downscaling when we don't need to.

In Zoro's case, I think it is better for him to be "At least 7-A" in that arc.

 

[00potato]

It isn’t overuse? He shredded Pica who is extremely close to 7-A+. That isn’t overuse, it is the textbook example for when to upscale.

 

[Damage3245]

It isn’t overuse? He shredded Pica who is extremely close to 7-A+. That isn’t overuse, it is the textbook example for when to upscale.

That's not what Pica's durability scales to.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Damage's sense of judgement.

 

[KingTempest]

We can drop the previous Zoro scaling for now then.

Zoro upscaling from Mountain+ Apoo is good then?

 

[LordGinSama]

At Lesat 7-A+ is probably better for Wano Arc Zoro, as for his prior keys I'd say just leaving him at > 377 Megatons is fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Damn, alright then.

Also, we need a reasoning and a justification for the admirals being at High 7-A or High 7-A+

 

[Dr.Fix]

Damn, alright then.

Also, we need a reasoning and a justification for the admirals being at High 7-A or High 7-A

“I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

-Sherlock Holmes

 

[Ped2018]

“I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

-Sherlock Holmes

Damn dude , you're so smart

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245 @CinCameron20

So what should we do here?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Antvasima - Frankly, I do not agree with any of the High 7-A justifications due to a large handful of false info and opinions--the largest issue being "Apoo taking a kick from Kizaru" despite that kick leaving him incapacitated and clutching at his face until his eventual off-panel escape. If we scaled characters for not dying from an attack, then literally everyone would be the same tier in this particular verse.

I would also like to touch on the 6-C Doflamingo topic since it has massive impact on the scaling on the verse as a whole--more so than somehow scaling Apoo to Kizaru for being one-shot--but not killed.

I'd prefer this topic be closed, honestly. I'm not about to go into detail about every issue with the scaling justifications and how they are wrong.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I don't think we can just reject the CRT outright because you don't want to debate the issues with the scaling justifications.

But to be honest, considering that this CRT concerns a number of characters involved in ongoing fights in the Wano Arc, I would suggest as a compromise that we just put this CRT on pause until the Wano Arc is concluded and we have a firmer understanding of these character's strengths and feats.

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously agree that we cannot scale pre-timeskip Apoo from Kizaru just because he didn't instantly die from a casual strike. That is just storytelling convention suspension of disbelief.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

Me just biding my time until One Piece gets crazy feats so I can come back and be like “I told you so”.

 

[KingTempest]

Alright. Since nobody agrees to them backscaling from Kizaru.

• Scratchmen Apoo
  • Durability: Mountain level+ (Took an attack from Eustass Kid, His tonfas took attacks from a human-allosaurus hybrid form X Drake)

People are still focused on the Kizaru portion to drop every single upgrade.
I assumed that I made it clear that I dropped the Kizaru portion and removed it from the OP.

 

[KingTempest]

You know what? At this point I don't care anymore. No hard feelings to anybody, but I'm genuinely tired.

I've sent my explanation on why Katakuri and Cracker scale and why Doflamingo's durability scales, which has yet to be opposed by anyone except Cin, which I've proved why they scale, and people say "I agree w/ Cin and Fix" for nonexistent reasons (unless it's the Kizaru portion which was already debunked by and conceded to Damage).

When Katakuri composed himself, Luffy stated "he's back to being tough again". Feats of Tough Katakuri to Gear Fourth Luffy?

Spoiler: Katakuri Feats Against Luffy

• Bounce-Man
  • Punches Luffy into a wall.
  • Goes around his Kong Gun and punches him.
  • Follows up the previous punch (Haki is shown where Luffy is harmed) and hits him in his stomach again.
• Snake-Man
  • Hits him with Buzz Cut Mochi and draws blood, then slams him into the ground.
  • Matches Snakeman in a brawl.
  • Blocks a 3x Accelerated Python with a regular kick.
  • Hits Luffy in the face with spike from shoe.
  • Damaged Luffy with the final attack. Knocks him out even.

For Cracker.
If Haki was the only factor, he would've pierced Tank-man.
My bad, Tank-man is too durable.
He would've cut into Bounce-man. Luffy states in base that his CoA is too hard. His soldier should've pierced base Luffy with that logic.
Saying Katakuri and Cracker doesn't scale, doesn't make sense.

One of Luffy's punches (Python, which doesn't have a charge prior, it's just a stretched punch) drew blood from Doflamingo.
Culverin w/ 2 hands (charged up to be stronger) couldn't go through 2 layer Awakening.

And Eminiteable has already explained the justification on his side as well.

I'm personally for Katakuri and Cracker not needing 7-A+ since it seems unnecessary and they already showed they scale to the Boundman more than they scale to whatever the 7-A+ shit is.

I've already conceded on Apoo or anybody scaling to Kizaru on multiple occassions.

Damn. That makes sense.

I would argue that his attacks attack the "true form" of a DF user, since he hurt Luffy with a blunt music attack, but there were no shown wounds, so that's that.

Alright. Since nobody agrees to them backscaling from Kizaru.

• Scratchmen Apoo
  • Durability: Mountain level+ (Took an attack from Eustass Kid, His tonfas took attacks from a human-allosaurus hybrid form X Drake).

And I gave him an alternative Mountain+ scaling for scaling to another supernova which has yet to be countered, discussed, opposed, etc.

The fact that everyone says that me upscaling Zoro to large mountain for one shotting a mountain+ is based on feeling and opinions when I know for a fact that I explained it is what's hitting me right now.
Not a single person has debunked or successfully countered Zoro upscaling except scaling to his earlier Wano self (which makes sense), but everyone made compromises just so "he doesn't get too high" and since I'm too annoyed to reply to baseless compromises when Eminiteable has already explained it for me even better than I could have.

It would be unfair to limit a character just because they didn't follow the same scaling chain as another, can Zoro never reach High 7-A unless he fights the same opponents Luffy does? Zoro has one shot every 377 megaton character he's fought and now one shot a 550 megaton character; one shotting a 550 megaton is a greater feat than fighting against a possibly High 7-A character imo.

I could care less.
The fact that the only reason that Luffy got High 7-A is from a verbatim multiplier and everyone that has fought him just got excuses to why they don't scale is humorous. Zoro did too until the 3x Asura multiplier was removed. I guess Luffy's god tier now since nobody scales above Luffy except the Yonko.
It's funny how Hody could fight Katakuri since Katakuri doesn't scale to G4 for some reason.

Even those who said in the last thread that the Admirals should be High 7-A, possibly 6-C don't have anything to say now, especially when the other half of the thread was Admiral scaling.

A lot of these characters have "possibly" on their ranking for High 7-A. The possibly's have no backing to why they're possibles, even though some of them scale off Luffy who has a solid High 7-A rating.
Some scale off the Admirals who were decided in this thread to be High 7-A or High 7-A+.

All we had for the Admirals is this calc for Aokiji.

Damage had the High 7-A, possibly 6-C for the Admirals, but we need a solid basis on it as well. Any numbers or calcs or anything will be appreciated.

But everybody's worried about Apoo and Kizaru, which has already been conceded on and removed from the OP over 24 hours ago.

Y'all can close this shit if y'all want to. If you want to keep going, go ahead. But I'd really appreciate if my CRT doesn't get "no"ed into Necro since people don't like to back up claims.

 

[BlackeJan]

So what’s going on?

 

[KingTempest]

Apoo scaling to Kizaru was denied and conceded.

Zoro will be put to Mountain+ for one shotting Apoo and for cutting through his weapons that took hits from a Hybrid X Drake.

Admirals have no basis on their rankings.

Katakuri, Cracker, and Doflamingo are in limbo since feelings matter more than feats.

Base Luffy's durability will probably not scale to High 7-A Katakuri for taking a myriad of hits from him.

What else are we forgetting?

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@KingTempest The downplay is pretty ridiculous, but I’m not surprised. You are just going to have to wait until EOS One Piece and then watch every character get raised exponentially. These people treat Admirals like they are city level. Don‘t worry though, they have already changed the climate of an island permanently as a side effect of their battle, so we know they will get crazy feats later. The main problem, that people don‘t seem to understand, is that One Piece characters do not actively attempt to destroy things or show off their powers (Enel was an exception and look how strong he was). One Piece characters won’t just go around busting islands and countries for fun. Unfortunately for OP fans, that means that every feat is scrutinized heavily, even if the same standards aren’t applied to other verses on the wiki. Lol even when they revise something again and again, they still end up getting it completely wrong. I hope something insane happens during Chapter 1000.

 

[Damage3245]

Unfortunately for OP fans, that means that every feat is scrutinized heavily, even if the same standards aren’t applied to other verses on the wiki.

I can't speak for other fans, but I try to scrutinize all verses I'm familiar with heavily.

 

[Eminiteable]

Would appreciate if we didn't derail, at the very least I'd appreciate if we could sort out Onigashima Zoro's upscaling to baseline High 7-A.

 

[KingTempest]

Here's my reasoning for it.

Apoo has Mountain+ durability for taking an attack (getting his full body slammed) from an enraged Kid, and his Tonfas get the durability for taking hits from a Hybrid X Drake.

Zoro cut through both with a no named anime swordsman slice that mimics Shishi Sonson, which uses 1 sword.
Zoro can use 3 swords. Not even including Asura.
Zoro should get minimum High 7-A, as that's the law of upscaling.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yep I agree with that completely, I'm for baseline high 7-A.

Kaido got upscaled to 6-C which was around 2 times increase, since everyone seemingly agreed that Kaido shouldn't be in the same tier as someone he one shot. Zoro would only be increased by 1.8 times in comparison.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Zoro on Onigashima upscaling to that level, but I don't think all of the Scabbards should be "At least High 7-A", upscaling from Zoro.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah I agree with that, I'm for an Onigashima raid key like damage suggested.

 

[KingTempest]

That's understandable.

The scabbards still need solid ratings as well.
They should all scale off Jack. Kin'emon's still Low 7-B for some reason.

I'll edit the OP for the scabbards, but if the scabbards all scale to each other, I don't know why Kin'emon's weaker than base Sanji.

 

[KingTempest]

Jack would scale to Fujitora who scales to Sabo who hurt Burgess who took attacks from Ace, who's High 7-A via the OP.

Jack's AP ≥ Fujitora's AP ≥ Sabo's AP > Burgess' Dura > Ace's AP ~ Marineford Aokiji's AP ~ High 7-A from the suggestions of the previous threads.

 

[Eminiteable]

I think the Burgess' scaling to ace and Sengoku got denied before in the past.

 

[KingTempest]

Deadass?

I understand Sengoku, but why Ace?