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One Piece God Tiers and Top Tiers Revision

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Damage3245

Damage3245

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The aim of this thread is primarily to revise the God Tiers of One Piece (AKA, the people who currently scale to 6-B off of this calc for Whitebeard).

This includes:
My proposition is that instead of scaling them to the calc for Whitebeard, which is multiple tiers above anything else in the verse at this point, we scale these characters to either:

At least High 7-A, likely 6-C, via Kaido one-shotting Boundman Luffy who is High 7-A, or just upscale them to baseline 6-C overall for the same feat.

We know that Big Mom and Kaido are comparable via their fight with each other, and we know that Whitebeard was counted among the strongest of each of the Yonkou. Shanks, though offscreen, also managed to stop Kaido in some fashion.

There is also the issue of Kaido have a 6-C calc for the potential energy of raising up the island of Onigashima. However it is debatable about whether or not this calc can actually apply to any of his statistics / attacks.
 
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I'm for the remove of 6-B being an outlier and upscaling them all directly to baseline 6-C since the feat was done casually by Kaido and the difference in High 7-A's tier is relatively small.

I also believe the admirals should scale to old Whitebeard via their feats against him in marineford & for scaling to Marco who recently clashed with Big Mom.
 
I agree with Eminiteable.

I'm all for the removal of 6-B as an outlier in favor of 6-C.

I think the OG Admirals should scale to Oldbeard, and Marco should also scale to them.
 
Eminiteable said:
I also believe the admirals should scale to old Whitebeard via their feats against him in marineford & for scaling to Marco who recently clashed with Big Mom.
Click to expand...
What feats do they possess that makes one think they actually, reasonably, scale to him?

Akainu impaling a dying old man having a heart attack mid-combat?

Aokiji failing to affect him in the slightest?

Kizaru failing to hit him meaningfully?

I mean heck, all of Marineford Whitebeard's feats take place after Squard, a dude nobody in their right mind would scale to an Admiral, impaled Whitebeard center mass. Add to that the heart attack and free, heavy-hitting attacks he took, and it's had to reasonably claim they outright fully scale to him.

Plus the fact it took all three combined to halt one full-powered attack from him pre-injury

As to the OP, upscale to 6-C is what I'd be in agreeance with at a glance
 
Yeah, I'm not really supportive of the Admirals scaling fully to 6-C either. High 7-A seems a lot better for them, for now.
 
Damage3245 said:
Yeah, I'm not really supportive of the Admirals scaling fully to 6-C either. High 7-A seems a lot better for them, for now.
Click to expand...
To be fully clear, I meant 6-C for everyone else, the Admirals I don't believe have strong enough showings yet to solidly place, but I'd be open to other perspectives
 
Xulrev said:
What feats do they possess that makes one think they actually, reasonably, scale to him?

Akainu impaling a dying old man having a heart attack mid-combat?

Aokiji failing to affect him in the slightest?

Kizaru failing to hit him meaningfully?

I mean heck, all of Marineford Whitebeard's feats take place after Squard, a dude nobody in their right mind would scale to an Admiral, impaled Whitebeard center mass. Add to that the heart attack and free, heavy-hitting attacks he took, and it's had to reasonably claim they outright fully scale to him.

Plus the fact it took all three combined to halt one full-powered attack from him pre-injury

As to the OP, upscale to 6-C is what I'd be in agreeance with at a glance
Click to expand...
A lot of ignorance and in this post.

"Akainu impaling a dying old man having a heart attack mid-combat?"

It's almost pathetic to try make your point stronger you're mentioning he's an "Oldman" do better. Akainu clashed equally with Whitebeard using his bisento and gura gura no mi before any heartattack has occurred and for an extended period of time they fought as equals.



"Aokiji failing to affect him in the slightest?"

Do better, Whitebeard survived due to his quake being activated when Aokiji froze him, the fight is too short to discredit either of them.

"Kizaru failing to hit him meaningfully?"

Kizaru did hit him meaningfully and completely cut through him, when Whitebeard caught Kizaru off guard; Kizaru proceeded to get up unharmed and Overpowered Whitebeard his his foot.



"I mean heck, all of Marineford Whitebeard's feats take place after Squard, a dude nobody in their right mind would scale to an Admiral, impaled Whitebeard center mass."

Provide evidence this in any way nerfs Whitebeard's physical stats if you want to use it to dismiss all of Admirals feats. Squard plainly caught him off guard, this isn't the same as the admirals and I find it laughable you would even imply they're the same.

"Plus the fact it took all three combined to halt one full-powered attack from him pre-injury"

Again provide evidence a small cut like this nerfs him when he literally took hundreds of cuts, gunshots and canon balls afterwards without ever complaining about getting weaker.

"Plus the fact it took all three combined to halt one full-powered attack from him pre-injury"

They all stopped him, there's no evidence one of them on their own wouldn't be unable to stop him. This feat in no way implies that had too. At the end of the day this was done with Ryou and it could have easily have just been a case of them needing all three to cover an aoe which protects the platform. Weak argument.

A Marco who hasn't fought in over a year was able to stalemate Big Mom.
 
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Eminiteable said:
A lot of ignorance and in this post.
Click to expand...
Off to a strong start, insulting me instead of my argument, wow so polite.

Eminiteable said:
Akainu clashed equally with Whitebeard using his bisento and gura gura no mi before any heartattack has occurred and for an extended period of time they fought as equals.
Click to expand...
Nowhere in that do we see Akainu's attack clash with the quake, the only thing you can argue is that he kicked the bisento.

Eminiteable said:
Do better, Whitebeard survived due to his quake being activated when Aokiji froze him, the fight is too short to discredit either of them.
Click to expand...
So you actually agree he doesn't scale from feats?

Eminiteable said:
Kizaru did hit him meaningfully and completely cut through him, when Whitebeard caught Kizaru off guard; Kizaru proceeded to get up unharmed and Overpowered Whitebeard his his foot.
Click to expand...
Do you.....even see Whitebeard, and how covered in damage he is? We cannot scale a dying person's highest showings because a laser, which per wiki standards bypasses durability by the way, passed through them.
Eminiteable said:
Provide evidence this in any way nerfs Whitebeard's physical stats if you want to use it to dismiss all of Admirals feats. Squard plainly caught him off guard, this isn't the same as the admirals and I find it laughable you would even imply they're the same.
Click to expand...
You want proof that being impaled and your body failing makes you physically weaker? How about all medical knowledge and history? It would be more appropriate for you to give proof that someone dying would NOT make them become more physically weak, since all common knowledge points to the opposite, and no citation nor source is necessary for common sense.

Eminiteable said:
Again provide evidence a small cut like this nerfs him when he literally took hundreds of cuts, gunshots and canon balls afterwards without ever complaining about getting weaker.
Click to expand...
A small cut, like being impaled center mass by an enormous sword? Geez, this downplay is remarkable.

Eminiteable said:
At the end of the day this was done with Ryou and it could have easily have just been a case of them needing all three to cover an aoe which protects the platform. Weak argument.
Click to expand...
Correct, it is their Haki and not their physicals, so it still doesn't scale. I'm glad you keep agreeing with my points.

Eminiteable said:
A Marco who hasn't fought in over a year was able to stalemate Big Mom.
Click to expand...
He was able to match one punch and harm Prometheus with his own flames, then she simply grabbed him and tossed him aside, unharmed. Your definition of a stalemate strains credulity.
 
Xulrev said:
Nowhere in that do we see Akainu's attack clash with the quake, the only thing you can argue is that he kicked the bisento.
Click to expand...
Yes we do, we see it in both panels.
Xulrev said:
So you actually agree he doesn't scale from feats?
Click to expand...
There isn't anything to scale from in that encounter; both avoided the others attack.
Xulrev said:
Do you.....even see Whitebeard, and how covered in damage he is?
Click to expand...
And Kizaru still overpowered him effortlessly and was unharmed.
Xulrev said:
Correct, it is their Haki and not their physicals, so it still doesn't scale. I'm glad you keep agreeing with my points.
Click to expand...
This wasn't the arguement? You said it needed 3 to stop it? And now you've conceded and started arguing haki doesn't scale to physical stats.
Xulrev said:
He was able to match one punch and harm Prometheus with his own flames, then she simply grabbed him and tossed him aside, unharmed. Your definition of a stalemate strains credulity.
Click to expand...
He clashed with her as equals, this is reason to scale. We scale shanks for clashing with Whitebeard. She was stalemated since both her homies were defeated and she ran away "a situation in which further action or progress by opposing or competing parties seems impossible."
Xulrev said:
You want proof that being impaled and your body failing makes you physically weaker? How about all medical knowledge and history? It would be more appropriate for you to give proof that someone dying would NOT make them become more physically weak, since all common knowledge points to the opposite, and no citation nor source is necessary for common sense.
Click to expand...
This is a manga, a fictional universe and the character we're discussing is someone who can survive with a portion of his head melted off and still continue fighting. Yes we shouldn't apply real life human standards to him and instead look to the manga and make a comparison; for example Zoro similarly was pierced through his torso but proceeded to one-shot Killer, we don't consider Zoro nerfed here so we shouldn't consider Whitebeard nerfed. No one in marineford said due to getting stabbed by squard Whitebeard's physical stats suddenly dropped, there's nothing suggesting he dropped in strength due to this.
 
I need a reasoning on why we can't/shouldn't/wouldn't scale to the 6-B calc. I'm not butthurt that people are against it, but I need a valid reason on why.

Kaido​

I say that the 6-C Potential Energy for Kaido should scale to his statistics/attacks.

Kaido's feat consists of him generating flame clouds. He clearly does it casually from the other showings of him doing it.
Even in the same exact instance of him doing it he's just standing up regularly with no shown effort.

His main attack as a dragon is Boro Breath, which is him gathering fire in his mouth and letting it fly out. He's literally just using the same thing for a destructive purpose, no different than using an energy system for another purpose.
 
I just want to ask something about the Whitebeard feat, the calc takes into acount that he creates TWO earthquakes instead of just one?
 
@KingTempest; well, one of my original points a long time ago when this topic came up before was that Whitebeard's effects with his Devil Fruit are very inconsistent. He's able to casually create Country level destruction with his Devil Fruit, but he requires multiple attacks before he can destroy Marineford (the fortress) and likewise Blackbeard when showing off his new Devil Fruit fails to completely destroy Marineford.

Not to mention Whitebeard failing to shatter a metal wall when he had no reason to be holding back.

I don't want to lean on this too strongly because I'm sure this will invite the AOE Fallacy, but when Whitebeard only has one showing that is 6-B, and multiple more that are nowhere even close, let alone the rest of the verse being nowhere close to him, then it's easy to think that the one initial 6-B feat may just be an outlier.

Kaido's feat consists of him generating flame clouds. He clearly does it casually from the other showings of him doing it.
Even in the same exact instance of him doing it he's just standing up regularly with no shown effort.
Click to expand...

The lack of effort from Kaido makes it seem more like it doesn't scale to his actual statistics. It could just be hax-based flight instead of assuming he's applying some kind of propulsive force with his clouds.
 
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Id say for the Yonko they should just be 6-C no H7A while for the Admirals id personally either put them at 6-C but scale them down a little below the Yonko or something like “At least High 7-A+, likely 6-C”.
 
Yeah the walls made of wapol metal which absorbs physical impact or some shit.

Although I'm not sure if that was confirmed or just assumed.
 
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Anyway about the matter of this thread.

I still do personally think that Whitebeard's Quake is still valid and not an outlier, but if most of you think otherwise, then i guess i will have to accept it.

For Kaido lifting Onigashima, it should scale to his Attack Potency, as his Boro Breath is made by the same flames that he used to lift the island.

And it should scale to his Durability as well, since he survived his own Boro Breath reflected by Raizo.

For who scale to that feat, the Yonko and everyone who is comparable to them without question, and since it was quite casual they would be "At least 6-C".

For the OG Admirals, i think "At least High 7-A, likely 6-C" should be more than fair, as they fought Old Whitebeard back in Marineford.
 
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For Kaido lifting Onigashima, it should scale to his Attack Potency, as his Boro Breath is made by the same flames that he used to lift the island.
Click to expand...

Source on this?

Kaido making clouds for flight, and using fire breath does not mean the two have to be comparable in potency.
 
@Eminiteable; yes, but that doesn't inherently have anything to do with his breath attacks in dragon form.

I don't think we should be assuming they're directly linked until there's some supporting evidence.
 
I'm no expert on calcs, but, I do wonder as with cases like Pica regenerating his golem body of Fujitora lifting rubble these things are treated as AP feats even though they were performed casually. I'm wondering why they would be considered fine but this wouldn't.
 
The problem isn't treating it as an AP feat, because situationally Kaido totally could just lift an island this size and drop it on someone with 6-C results - the issue is assuming that his other attacks must be comparable to it when there isn't really any solid evidence for it right now.

To put it another way, Pain's Chibaku Tensei has the same "source" as his other abilities; gravity/chakra, but we don't scale his Shinra Tensei or other jutsu to be comparable to his Chibaku Tensei.
 
Hmm I see, what exactly would be needed in terms of evidence to prove it would scale to Kaido all around; instead of it just being a special hax Ability?

Would for example Momo or Yamato being eastern dragons and having the same Ability but not being able to use it to the same degree as Kaido (due to a physical strength difference) be sufficient?
 
To be honest, I was going to suggest holding off on including the Kaido feat in revisions until either the official release came out, or the next chapter came out to see if we'd get any more context for the feat or Kaido's abilities.

I don't want to dismiss the feat entirely, but I think we should probably hold off on it and upgrading Kaido until the current fight is resolved.
 
Damage3245 said:
To be honest, I was going to suggest holding off on including the Kaido feat in revisions until either the official release came out, or the next chapter came out to see if we'd get any more context for the feat or Kaido's abilities.

I don't want to dismiss the feat entirely, but I think we should probably hold off on it and upgrading Kaido until the current fight is resolved.
Click to expand...
I can definitely agree with this.
 
Edit: This was originally for Damage's quote, but this goes for everyone that wants to throw away the 6-B calc

Not targeting anyone in particular, but I find annoyance in finding the consistency of feats of a man progressively getting weaker.
The AOE fallacy would work against you, as Whitebeard can use quakes for the sole purpose of destroying Ice blades and Aokiji and nothing around them.

In reference to the Siege Wall, Aokiji even said that he wished they opened it (in context, while he was blocking Whitebeard's attack). The Siege Wall was noted to be extremely thick. We can see the multiple layers of it here when Whitebeard tried to break it (the wall behind it crumbled, but all that happened to it was a dent). They said that since Whitebeard couldn't break it, it's not ordinary steel. So that wouldn't work.

Whitebeard in the beginning with the 8.58 Teraton calc was off the Island. Every feat he had after was when he was targeting the island or when he wasn't focused on AOE. There was the theory that Whitebeard had been holding back the whole time since he didn't want to hurt his crewmates on the island, but I won't pull that card since there's no statement of it.

  1. Attack Potency Feats
    1. Blocks Aokiji's attacks and attacks Aokiji.
    2. Bullys Vice Admiral Ronse.
    3. Quaking John Giant after his famous earthquake.
    4. Breaking out of Ice.
    5. One hand punching Akainu's lava.
    6. One hand punching random Marines.
    7. Gets triggered and starts bashing Akainu.
    8. Slam quakes Blackbeard.
  2. Area of Effect Feats
    1. Destroying the Tsunamis.
    2. Famous Earthquake that tilted the seafloor but didn't touch anything in Whitebeard's area because the Admirals blocked it.
    3. One hand punching the Siege Wall.
    4. When he wanted to, he aimed a large scaled attack at the building.
    5. Number 7 of above, next page. Page after.
      1. Sengoku complimented his power at that point. Are we gonna say half face Shirohige > Regular Old wounded Shirohige just because that one DC feat?
    6. Again, targets the building, stated to not hold be holding back at that point in time.
When he started destroying everything in sight, it was noted that he just started attempting to do it.

We need to take every AOE or AP antifeat into consideration, since these people can control their attacks. It's not like Ki control where it's assumed that they do, we visually see it. Mihawk's slice couldn't cut through Daz bones (who didn't have Haki) until he wanted it to. Garp scales to Whitebeard but Luffy drew blood from him (he's clearly suppressing himself).

Heck, even Blackbeard was destroying the Island right after he got Whitebeard's fruit. Sengoku was pissed that he was going to destroy the island but he didn't show that same energy to Whitebeard? I highly doubt that Blackbeard > Whitebeard because Sengoku got involved.
  1. Destroyed the building.
  2. Tilts the seafloor.
Blackbeard even admits that he doesn't have control over the fruit, and his crewmates even tell him to stop being reckless.
In my opinion, nothing solid gives a good reason why the 6-B calc should be thrown out.
 
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I can't respond to that fully tonight, but regarding these points at least:

Mihawk's slice couldn't cut through Daz bones (who didn't have Haki) until he wanted it to.
Click to expand...

Those are two different types of attacks. He couldn't cut Daz Bones with an air slash, but he sliced through him personally at close range with a direct slash.

Garp scales to Whitebeard but Luffy drew blood from him (he's clearly suppressing himself).
Click to expand...

It's possible that Garp just wasn't using Haki to defend himself from Luffy, whereas he'd normally have some level of Haki active in fights. That's the only way he could be "suppressing" his durability.
 
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