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No it has been disagreed. @Damage said Zoro was off guard. I brought up Apoo was. Just because you disagree with someone does not mean it is settled. Engage in conversation.
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One Piece High 7-A Field Day (Wano+ Edition)
- Thread starter KingTempest
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That just means Page One doesn't scale to 7-A+ in zoan Form, he was treated as the weakest flying six member due to being the youngest and to quote Sasaki again: "Pay-Pay can't hack it either" when referring too the Calamity spot. I don't know anything about the sulong forms etc but as far as I can tell X Drake has every reason to upscale since the gap is very very small
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No, I did enage in a conversation, the issue is you went silent days after without responding; Apoo's guard isn't down, he's fighting someone, his durability and his weapon durability has no reason to lower in this instance, Zoro attacked from Apoo's direction so there's no case off "well his back wasn't guarded etc", he cut through both weapon and Apoo while speed blitzing both Apoo and X Drake. You need to provide evidence for why Apoo's guard for some reason was lowered or for how X Drake helped, saying "X Drake was there" isn't enough like I've brought up above.
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Emini gave me this quote earlier:
"When one of the numbers tried attacking Kid a beast pirate member said "you're not good enough to be a Tobi Roppo even if you kill em"
Yamato damaged Ulti quite badly with a surprise attack, and didn't pay attention to her later, Yamato was shaking a little from a G3 attack:
G3 > Yamato =/> Ulti =/> Page 1 > Numbers
All that makes sense to me, mainly with the quote from Emini, unless i misinterpreted the quote.
Luffy used an Elephant Gun against a fodder, so he is indeed going for the overkill since the start of Onigashima.
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Actually it is. Apoo was distracted with someone else. Even if Zoro attacked from Apoo's direction, Drake was in the way of sight lines. I don't even know how Zoro gets through if you think he attacked straight on with Drake right there.
On the other hand Zoro only had one opponent in front of him. He should have been on guard even if he didn't see the attack coming.
The possibilities favour me here.
Apoo's music can bypass durability to some extent as a devil fruit ability
Apoo could have mixed in his Haki
Apoo's music does Not have to scale to his own physicals.
Zero could have used Haki in one instance and not in another.
Even if you do not think Drake had an effect on Apoo you still think Zoro was caught in a weakened state. The only logic for that is an application of Haki on Zoro's part.
On the other hand thinking Apoo was not using any amps or haxx to hurt Zoro AND that Zoro's stats were equal in both instances, has zero footing to stand.
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"Basically" that's reaching. He just says they can't clobbered while drunk. That is a better argument though.
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This doesn't prove his durability got lowered since like I've said the weapon got cut meaning Zoro cut through his guard; his guard being what he was putting his focus so regardless of if Apoo was focused on X Drake it's not like this is a video game where because Apoo locked on to X Drake if he's attacked by Zoro in the same position he's going to for some reason be defenseless.
Except he wasn't, pretty sure be spefically told Luffy to be on guard after he got cut. Luffy and Zoro were off guard.
Gonna need proof for all that since a lot of tga is headcanon. The only thing in there that's ok is his music not scaling to his own physicals.
No the only logic for being in a weaker state is not due to no application of haki, rather, the entire series where characters have been harmed where they shouldn't due to being off guard or not being on guard.
Got no clue what you're going on about in the second post? Again if Apoo used hax or haki it requires proof, burden of proof. But no clue owhat you mean by Zoro' stats.
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If needed I can provide examples:
- Luffy and Zoro against Bellamy since they refused to fight.
- Kaido against Oden when he was distracted by momo and had no reason to have his guard up & was attacked from behind.
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Durability doesn't magically lower. Your guard simply isn't up. In the case you just posted, Oden could not have been blocking and Kaito got a free shot in. I say could because we didn't see. Also Oden has no feats of scaling to Oni Kaido so it is entirely possible Kaido could do that with or without guard.
Haki is a conscious defence that could have played a role. I don't have to prove anything, I am merely pointing out the paths available.
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If durability doesn't magically lower then why are you claiming X Drake made a difference? Like Damage said Apoo's Ap should still be in close enough range to harm Zoro (which is even more probable if we upgrade Apoo's music to at least 7-A+)
Assuming haki is being used usually requires proof.
Regarding the guard points: if he could do it outside Oni form then the narrator wouldn't have said "but the battle lasted longer than the enemy expected" and Kaido wouldn't have taken the precautions of getting rid of Hyou who could have aided Oden.
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I don't recall saying Apoo's base durability changes. If I did or you misunderstood I apologize. Rather Apoo might not have been actively guarding with hake or other defence.
Proof? The proof is in the feat if Zoro>>Apoo>Zoro>Apoo Something has to give on the circle without hypocrisy. Also Apoo somehow bypassed Luffy's DF. If that is not Haki it is still a ability that doesn't consider AP standards.
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Luffy has blunt force resistance not blunt force immunity, it can be overcome if the attack is stronger than his durability by an extent. If Apoo harmed Luffy with blunt force if just means Apoo has enough AP to overcome the resistance.
We weren't assuming Apoo was using haki at all when defending himself since he doesn't have that ability listed, so we don't assume his base durability of his weapon durability lowered when Zoro cut them.
I'm not seeing the circular scaling issue:
Since we treat Apoo's durability and AP separate since like Damage said it wouldnt apply with Newton's law it isn't a circular issue since Apoo's Ap can be close (and is since it should be "at least 7-A+) without it effecting the fact Zoro one shot him.
We weren't assuming Apoo was using haki at all when defending himself since he doesn't have that ability listed, so we don't assume his base durability of his weapon durability lowered when Zoro cut them.
I'm not seeing the circular scaling issue:
- Ittoryu Zoro >> Apoo's weapons > X Drake
- Ittoryu Zoro >>> Apoo's durability
- High 7-A = Higher sword styles >> Ittoryu Zoro
- Apoo's AP =\= Apoo's Durability
Since we treat Apoo's durability and AP separate since like Damage said it wouldnt apply with Newton's law it isn't a circular issue since Apoo's Ap can be close (and is since it should be "at least 7-A+) without it effecting the fact Zoro one shot him.
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This, even tho i conceded the point about Ulti or Drake scaling to Apoo i want to reply to that:
Apoo scales to 7A+ for "damaging luffy" but his Music Punch didn't leave any mark on Luffy, just like Ul-Zugan, and if his blunt force resistance does not come into play against explosions, then Apoo's next attack, the Music Explosion, didn't overpower the blunt resistance, since it wouldn't even be in play, meaning there isn't even a 7A+ feat here.
And again, nearly everyone agrees with Katakuri being only H7A, so there isn't a 7A+ end to Luffy to scale, even his Elephant Gun scaales for being able to stop Katakuri, which will not be a 7A+ feat anymore, but a H7A one.
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Yes, if there is a wide margin. Apoo does not have the feats to support this which tells us there's something irregular about his attacks.
Yes, I agree. As long as Apoo's durability doesn't scale then Zoro has no reason to scale high 7-A barring his other styles.
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I need this chapter
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Honestly, I would prefer waiting to annoying downgrades/ estimates that will just be revised later when new feats show up. Let’s just take this arc to arc. We have no idea how strong these characters are now. Let’s wait for Wano to finish before deciding the levels of power of Wano characters.
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It's regrettable that a lot of the scaling justifications have been accepted mid-argument and now most present here are trying to justify circular scaling (with faultly logic and inaccurate interpretations of the scans, mind you), so I'll have to eventually make a separate thread to fix everything, but I'll wait until specific calculations have been accepted so I do not have to make 3 threads back to back.
Also, didn't we decide some threads ago that it would be best to wait until at least the end of Act 3 if not the entire Wano arc before making decisions on upgrades/downgrades for characters in this arc @Damage3245 ?
Also, didn't we decide some threads ago that it would be best to wait until at least the end of Act 3 if not the entire Wano arc before making decisions on upgrades/downgrades for characters in this arc @Damage3245 ?
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@CinCameron20; waiting was my suggestion.
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He does have the feats to support this, when using the explosion attack he One hit K.O'd Luffy.
Good to know you agree with what was proposed.
Chapter 980, see Luffy's face after being punched its visibly bruised; so the punch overcame the resistance & harmed him. The explosion one didn't, you're right but it did one hit k.o him. I don't know how you can possibly view these two feats as somehow being weaker than Luffy's own durability.
I don't think "nearly everyone" agreed that Luffy's durability should be equally to Katakuri though and keep in mind it's currently accepted he will downscale from Kat's AP; Kat being "at least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A" and Luffy getting "7-A+" durability; which if Katakuri increases the only thing that would likely change to Luffy is "at least 7-A+" durability at most.
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There's now been a week of discussion and there does seem to be a circular issue with Kid and Apoo, after engaging in that discussion with fix this is my proposal to fix the scaling around these four characters:
X Drake:
Attack Potency: At least 7-A in base (Regarded by Sasaki as being strong enough to potentially become a Calamity, so should be stronger than Ulti who's regarded as a brat), 7-A+ with Zoan forms (Far stronger in Zoan forms, should be stronger than Page One who was viewed as having no chance of becoming a Calamity. Damaged Sanji with a tail swing)
Apoo:
Attack Potency: At least Mountain level+ (His "Fighting Music" put a deep cut into Zoro and momentarily incapacitated Base Luffy during the Siege of Onigashima. He was able to leave a mark on Luffy from a blunt force attack, even with the latter's Blunt Force Resistance).
Striking Strength: Mountain level+ (Could match the strikes from Zoan X Drake without much issues)
Durability: Mountain level+ (Could support the combined force or Base X Drake and a casual Zoro, his tonfas took attacks from a human-allosaurus hybrid form X Drake)
Kid:
Durability: At least Mountain level+ (Could take attacks from Apoo)
Now if Luffy's durability gets upgraded due to Katakuri getting upgraded then it would likely become "at least 7-A+" and the only things that would potentially charge are Kid's durability being "High 7-A" and Apoo's attack potency being "High 7-A".
Again, I personally don't see an issue with applying this scaling for now, mainly since it stems from Apoo who's now been defeated and we have pretty solid feats for.
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Granted, but i think a few of Luffy's feats that gave him 7A+ had haki involved, either from him or Katakuri
Not what i said, i said they agreed with Kata only having H7A, thus possibly erasing Luffy's 7A+ durability since Kata wouldn't be at that level anymore.
None of these things is 7A+, Pay-tan does not have 7A+ feats nor does Sanji, they only have that if the Tobiroppo as a whole scale to 7A+, but they don't since the Numbers do not have 7A+ feats and scaling above Apoo is baseless.
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Nope
Yes and i also covered what that would mean in terms of scaling and Luffy's durability.
Page One is blatantly treated weaker than his sister.
They upscale from Base Ulti overpowering Luffy in a clash. Page one not scaling is due to his lack of feats and being treated weaker than the others. The Numbers are irrelevant and I've left them out of this propose scaling.
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I am still confused about numbers. What are their feats?
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The Numbers have no significant feats aside from getting one-shotted by every named character they've come across tbh.
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So I remember correctly. Because I've read here from someone that they could have taken G4 Luffy's attack if they weren't drunk, but I don't remember that.
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That statement was a long and unnecessary reach, ignore it
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@Eminiteable I agree Apoo's fighting music is separate from his striking strength and durability. I do NOT agree with your interpretation of how it works, how powerful it is, or needlessly stacking Up-Scales on everyone.
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Ok
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Also this is entirely far too subjective and reaching. A better scaling would be that he should simply be comparable to those of the same rank until he gets better feats. Not superior.
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Fair enough, either works.
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Oh, the panel where Luffy is stomped was already Snakeman? Anyway, Katakuri used haki, so Luffy didn't have blunt force resistance, while Apoo overpowered said resistance, meaning his attack was stronger, i don't see how that isn't a H7A feat for Luffy's Dura and Apoo's DF, but if you guys want just an "At least 7A+", tho i still think there should be a separate thread for these two, since they aren't minor characters.
Mostly in gag moments, in fights they seem pretty close in power.
Didn't you say it would be an "at least 7A" feat? Again, just because the Zoan forms are stronger it does not mean they will jump from 377 or 420 to 7A+.
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If High 7-A is more accurate and that's what everyone agrees on then I've got no issue changing it, just put at least since via the bare minimum it needs to be stronger than Luffy's base durability.
If treating all the Tobi roppo on the same tier until more feats/info are presented is less controversial and agreed upon then that's fine by me.
Base Luffy in this key is "At least 377/420 Megatons" and Base Ulti over powered that making her > at least 377/420 Megatons.
The difference between 377/420 to 550 is 1.45/1.3 times and the base Tobi roppo would scale above that by a descent margin already in base, so the zoan forms upscaling to 550 Megatons isn't much of an upscale:
- Zoan Tobiroppo > Base Tobiroppo > Base Luffy > 377/420 Megatons
- Zoan Tobiroppo >(1.45/1.3 times)> 337/420 megatons
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I have no problem with that, but i don't know a single time we did it, normally it would be treated as upscaling (>>377 in this case) and not as a tier change, i know verses that have some really big scaling chains and not even the top tier reach "+". If we are going to do it here, fine, but we will need to do it to every other power up that is considered a whole level above, DJ, Sulong, etc.
Btw, why would Luffy be 420 in base? Can't remember any feat in this tier for his base.
Another thing, Shishi Sonson is still listed as higher for Zoro, when it did a 7A+ to baseline H7A feat (going by Damage, who said being named or not does not change an attack's power), personally, i think Zoro should be 7A+ normally (due to being equal to Hybrid Drake) H7A with Secret Techniques (one shot Apoo with a Shishi Sonson) and higher with Asura, his durability is strange, scaling to H7A for being cut by a 7A+, but whatever.
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Can't speak for those verses but in this case it should be fine since they're close enough as I presented.
No clue where Luffy scales too whether it's 377 or 420 but either one is probably once again for being able to fight against Katakuri to an extent in base or something.
For the rest of your post a lot of what you've said has already been covered in the thread (such as shishi sonson, named attacks etc etc.) So if you want answers to why I proposed the scaling that way then ahead and have a read.
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I'm assuming it should be because of the boost his other forms got and that his base should've gotten the same increase.
Base Luffy was 377 while Gear 3rd was 420.
550-420 = 130.
That would put base at 507.
I doubt that's the reasoning, but that's a possibility.
Base Luffy was 377 while Gear 3rd was 420.
550-420 = 130.
That would put base at 507.
I doubt that's the reasoning, but that's a possibility.
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Yeah I don't think you can do that but either way the upscaling should be fine with either 377 Megatons or 420 Megatons since they're scaling above either of these numbers by a decent margin.
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No, the math reasoning above is unacceptable in any fashion.
Base Luffy (Post Udon) > Base Luffy (Post Whole-Cake) =/> Base Luffy (Post TS) = Sanji's Dura = Vergo's AP =/>/< Pica's Base AP =/< Nitoryu/Santoryu Zoro = Golem Pica (377MT)... basically.
Essentially, current Base Luffy is >377MT and Base Ulti (both Haki canceling eachother out) came out ahead, so she's at least slightly stronger than Base Luffy. Doing incredibly light damage to his base form (literally a couple scratches) would not justify her fully scaling to his durability, so this should be fine.
Also, to point something out regarding the "Luffy dura vs Kata AP", It's clear that he can't scale to the Mochi thrust since, you know, it tore away the flesh it came into contact with, so how exactly can Luffy scale from that example?
Base Luffy (Post Udon) > Base Luffy (Post Whole-Cake) =/> Base Luffy (Post TS) = Sanji's Dura = Vergo's AP =/>/< Pica's Base AP =/< Nitoryu/Santoryu Zoro = Golem Pica (377MT)... basically.
Essentially, current Base Luffy is >377MT and Base Ulti (both Haki canceling eachother out) came out ahead, so she's at least slightly stronger than Base Luffy. Doing incredibly light damage to his base form (literally a couple scratches) would not justify her fully scaling to his durability, so this should be fine.
Also, to point something out regarding the "Luffy dura vs Kata AP", It's clear that he can't scale to the Mochi thrust since, you know, it tore away the flesh it came into contact with, so how exactly can Luffy scale from that example?
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wasn't using the mochi thurst rather the other one since it's more blatant ("why won't the lights go out"), I just didn't want to make a new tweet by finding the image again. Here's some more times base luffy unguarded takes attacks from Katakuri (keep in mind I don't agree with making his durability High 7-A for damage's reasons):
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