One Piece High 7-A Field Day (Wano+ Edition)

[Eminiteable]

And Apoo's music punch left a mark in an off guard Luffy and didn't turn Luffy in his serious state, while Ulti used her base Ul-Zugan while Luffy was on guard, also left a mark, and made Luffy realize he was understamating Kaido's crew (all of that after Luffy fought Apoo)

being on guard doesn't effect luffy's blunt force resistance. Ulti was shown using armament hardening on Luffy, and from what i can see on the panels he wasn't seriously harmed by Base Ulti's headbutt.

Just like Zoro wasn't serious, Drake also wasn't, he didn't even use his X-Calibur, an attack which was portrayed as being in the same level as a Kong Gun, Zoro isn't the only one who is saving energy to fight the real problems, the only reason Zoro turned serious was because he saw Kiku's severed arm, otherwise they would still be fighting, meaning none of them was interested in wasting energy against Apoo.

I agree Drake is likely higher with his X-Calibur attack, but it requires proof that he wasn't serious (also it probably requires proof that his X Calibur attack is stronger like with Zoro). For example if Zoro never did what he did we can't just claim Zoro wasn't serious and that he totally should scale higher. There isn't evidence for Drake holding back.

He wouldn't have reached this special position outside the normal ranks without showing his power to someone, be it a Calamity or Kaido himself (the latter is more likely due to Apoo being a Supernova), meaning they evaluated all the Supernovas in one point, leaving Hawkins (who has the weakest feats) as a normal headliner, Apoo with this special position and Drake as a Tobiroppo (who are only below the Calamities), so Apoo was strong enough to be above headliners (his feats are better than Hawkins') but not strong enough to be grouped with Drake and his peers (was fighting a casual Drake), this is consistent afaik.

Again no evidence for Drake being casual, Apoo's actual rank was "informant", this by no means is above or below headliner that's just your headcanon. From what we know of this rank it puts Apoo in charge of the numbers and seemingly was a role used to infiltrate other alliances (like the Kid alliance). There isn't evidence they evaluated the Supernova and deemed Hawkins or Apoo weaker than the Tobi Roppo or evidence that Apoo or Hawkins were allowed to challenge them for their position.

The Beast Pirates are based on strength but unlike DBZ they don't have scouters to easily identify who is the strongest & it doesn't seem like they regularly allow challenges for positions.

 

[Dr.Fix]

It is circular reasoning

Apoo hurt 7-A+ Luffy and Zoro, Zoro one-shot Apoo puts him at high 7-A, Apoo hurt him puts Apoo at high 7-A, Zoro one shot him puts him at High 7-A +

The solution would be to do away with "up-scaling" and just put both at 7-A+.

Alternatively @CinCameron20 was right and Zoro must have used Haki since that increases attack and DEF.

 

[Eminiteable]

Apoo hurt 7-A+ Luffy and Zoro, Zoro one-shot Apoo puts him at high 7-A, Apoo hurt him puts Apoo at high 7-A, Zoro one shot him puts him at High 7-A +

the solution is to change Zoro's durability rating to whatever Apoo's AP is. which is currently 7-A+ but I would argue should be "at least 7-A+" based on the feats he performed with his music.

Like Damage has said AP =/= Durability.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Like Damage has said AP =/= Durability.

Mmm I'm not going to comb through this mess of 400 posts. If you want to cite something than link it. Durability's =>AP. that is calling 101. Zoro can't have more AP.

Actually we could put Apoo's physicals lower than his DF ability, that would work too.

 

[Eminiteable]

We do not, unless there is a reason for it like Newton's laws.

here

 

[Dr.Fix]

here

Exactly my point. This is a case of newton's laws and Damage is replying to AP getting boosted to Durability, not the other way around.

 

[Eminiteable]

I'll wait for Damage's response to this since it was his claim and I'm only going off what he said. But, even if your interpretation is true and we did go by Zoro's durability needing to be above his AP, then I would cite literally what happened as he got cut:


Here Zoro says he couldn't see the trajectory of the attack at all and likely wasn't prepared/guarding for one. and later we also see that the damage wasn't that much since that mark on his chest is pretty much gone from this point on wards.


we also see later on Zoro (who's on guard at this point) was on the front lines of the attacking force going for Apoo yet wasn't seriously harmed when the attack hit him, this being the same attack which K.O'd Base Luffy.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm gonna act like Zoro didn't get impaled by a scythe that he used to kill someone else

 

[Damage3245]

Apoo, being 7-A+, could still slash an off-guard Zoro with his DF ability even if we scaled Zoro's durability to being baseline High 7-A.

 

[XDragnoir]

being on guard doesn't effect luffy's blunt force resistance. Ulti was shown using armament hardening on Luffy, and from what i can see on the panels he wasn't seriously harmed by Base Ulti's headbutt.

Ul-Zugan left a mark in Luffy through his haki (afaik that many black lightnings only happen in haki clashes, and the center of their head seems to be black), Luffy didn't use haki against Apoo, so it still is a better feat for Ulti, and iirc being rubber does not protect Luffy from explosions.

I agree Drake is likely higher with his X-Calibur attack, but it requires proof that he wasn't serious (also it probably requires proof that his X Calibur attack is stronger like with Zoro). For example if Zoro never did what he did we can't just claim Zoro wasn't serious and that he totally should scale higher. There isn't evidence for Drake holding back.

In the first clash Drake was using his base form, then he noticed it wouldn't be enough due to Apoo blocking it and Zoro with easy and then used his Hybrid Form, the Hybrid Form is already a good power up for Zoans, but we know Drake uses his Full Form when he wants to finish a battle, as he did that against the Pacifista, he also didn't use any named attack.

Again no evidence for Drake being casual, Apoo's actual rank was "informant", this by no means is above or below headliner that's just your headcanon. From what we know of this rank it puts Apoo in charge of the numbers and seemingly was a role used to infiltrate other alliances (like the Kid alliance). There isn't evidence they evaluated the Supernova and deemed Hawkins or Apoo weaker than the Tobi Roppo or evidence that Apoo or Hawkins were allowed to challenge them for their position.

Aren't the Numbers above the Headliners? They seem to be secret weapons, and even tho they have only been one shot so far it wasn't by casual or low-level attacks:

Yamato is above Ulti and possibly above all Tobiroppo, G4 is G4, X Calibur was a desperate attack from Drake who was running for his life, meaning it was possibly the strongest attack he has in his Hybrid Form, and the Radical Beam is stronger than Sanji's normal kick and scared Big Mom more than any other thing so far, a headliner was one-shot by one of Sanji's normal kicks, btw.

And Hawkins is clearly weaker than the Strongest Headliners, the Tobiroppo, since he is a headliner and isn't one of them, he was also killed by Zoro casual and low-level named attacks, while Apoo was only defeated by a shishi sonson/laido from Zoro and the Tobiroppo were only put down by 7A+ or above attacks and were still able to get up afterwards, with Luffy also thinking about using G4 to finish Full Form Ulti quicker.

The Beast Pirates are based on strength but unlike DBZ they don't have scouters to easily identify who is the strongest & it doesn't seem like they regularly allow challenges for positions.

They aren't unable to tell who is stronger just because they lack scouts, if the gap from Apoo to Pay-tan was big anyone would have noticed that Apoo was > P1 and thus would have turned him into a F6, and Kaido is the more likely to take care of these things since Apoo is a Supernova, there is no reason he or anyone else would see Apoo is stronger than 1, 2, 3 or more of the beast pirates 9 main fighters and give him a lower position.

 

[Eminiteable]

Ul-Zugan left a mark in Luffy through his haki (afaik that many black lightnings only happen in haki clashes, and the center of their head seems to be black), Luffy didn't use haki against Apoo, so it still is a better feat for Ulti, and iirc being rubber does not protect Luffy from explosions.

No it didn't, look at him before the encounter and after when he engages Ulti; no difference whatsoever. If you're referring too the one panel where he's holding his head look closer as that's not a mark but his hair. "rubber does not protect Luffy from explosions." never claimed it did.

In the first clash Drake was using his base form, then he noticed it wouldn't be enough due to Apoo blocking it and Zoro with easy and then used his Hybrid Form, the Hybrid Form is already a good power up for Zoans, but we know Drake uses his Full Form when he wants to finish a battle, as he did that against the Pacifista, he also didn't use any named attack.

How do we know he uses his full form when he wants to finish a battle, because he used it once? Sorry this is just again baseless headcanon. Him not using a named attack is irrelevant since you would have to prove it increases his AP (keep in mind Zoro's "didn't use a named attack" in his High 7-A scaling was removed because there technically isn't any evidence that there's a power difference)

Aren't the Numbers above the Headliners? They seem to be secret weapons, and even tho they have only been one shot so far it wasn't by casual or low-level attacks:

Nope that's not stated, in fact actually now that i remember. When one of the numbers tried attacking Kid a beast pirate member said "you're not good enough to be a Tobi Roppo even if you kill em" although apparently random nameless beast pirate fodder is? it's confusing but Apoo and the Numbers aren't treated in the same ranking system it seems although being a Tobi Roppo seems more desirable to them.

Yamato is above Ulti and possibly above all Tobiroppo, G4 is G4, X Calibur was a desperate attack from Drake who was running for his life, meaning it was possibly the strongest attack he has in his Hybrid Form, and the Radical Beam is stronger than Sanji's normal kick and scared Big Mom more than any other thing so far, a headliner was one-shot by one of Sanji's normal kicks, btw.

Don't see how this is relevant.

And Hawkins is clearly weaker than the Strongest Headliners, the Tobiroppo, since he is a headliner and isn't one of them, he was also killed by Zoro casual and low-level named attacks, while Apoo was only defeated by a shishi sonson/laido from Zoro and the Tobiroppo were only put down by 7A+ or above attacks and were still able to get up afterwards, with Luffy also thinking about using G4 to finish Full Form Ulti quicker.

"since he isn't one of them" he literally only joined the beast pirates a week ago.

They aren't unable to tell who is stronger just because they lack scouts, if the gap from Apoo to Pay-tan was big anyone would have noticed that Apoo was > P1 and thus would have turned him into a F6, and Kaido is the more likely to take care of these things since Apoo is a Supernova, there is no reason he or anyone else would see Apoo is stronger than 1, 2, 3 or more of the beast pirates 9 main fighters and give him a lower position.

How would they have noticed that? They seem to have not noticed the Tobi Roppo are stronger than the calamities, yet, the calamities are confident in beating/fighting one of them.

Doesn't seem like your argument for Tobi Roppo > Apoo is based on anything solid imo.

 

[XDragnoir]

Doesn't seem like your argument for Tobi Roppo > Apoo is based on anything solid imo.

Okay then, i concede, so what is Apoo's reasoning for having 7A+ durability now? The whole base for that was him blocking Drake, since we can't scale his DF to his durability.

 

[Eminiteable]

Okay then, i concede, so what is Apoo's reasoning for having 7A+ durability now? The whole base for that was him blocking Drake, since we can't scale his DF to his durability.

for blocking X Drake and that hasn't changed?

 

[XDragnoir]

And what feat put Drake's AP in 7A+?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Apoo, being 7-A+, could still slash an off-guard Zoro with his DF ability even if we scaled Zoro's durability to being baseline High 7-A.

Is that not hypocritical? Zoro's defence is weaker but you're not applying the same to Apoo who was busy with Drake?

I don't really take issue with what you said @Damage3245 but at least apply it universally instead of with bias.

 

[Dr.Fix]

for blocking X Drake and that hasn't changed?

Actually precedent says that rating would apply to his weapons at best, not Apoo himself. See the case of Law VS Doflamingo and ask @CinCameron20 for a thorough response.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

and the Radical Beam is stronger than Sanji's normal kick

Not true. If you talking about the door stuff, It was said that the door could withstand any physical attacks, so the Radical Beam just ignored the door's "durability".

Edit: But I agree with Tobi roppos > Apoo > Hawkins.

 

[KingTempest]

Apoo's body has the 7-A+ rating for getting slammed by Kid.

His weapon has the durability for taking hits from a Hybrid Drake.

Hybrid has 7-A+ AP for

• Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (Should be at least stronger than Gear Third Luffy, since he could one shot a number, which Luffy had to go Gear Fourth to fight, matched a casual Zoro). Higher with Zoan Forms.

 

[Dr.Fix]

hould be at least stronger than Gear Third Luffy, since he could one shot a number, which Luffy had to go Gear Fourth to fight,

This seems like a pretty big leap to me.

 

[XDragnoir]

Kid is only 7A+ because he damaged Apoo, so it would circular scaling.

Hybrid Drake's AP does not work, if Luffy going G4 means they are above G3 then Drake is H7A for one shooting a 7A+, if they can't be 7A+ for Luffy going G4 they have 0 durability feats to put them at 7A+, meaning Drake's feat is unknown for on shooting someone who does not scale above the headliners who will be >377 at best.

 

[KingTempest]

This seems like a pretty big leap to me.

Doubt it.

Luffy immediately went Gear Fourth against the numbers, and he needed a set up from Zoro before he hit the number with a Kong Gun.
Drake came out of nowhere and one shot it.

Plus, Luffy was considering going Gear Fourth after Ulti, another member of the Tobiroppo, grabbed him, right after he used Gear Third on Page One (who wasn't even that badly injured).

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Wait a second, are Numers 7A+?

 

[XDragnoir]

Zoro and Jinbe only stopped it's attack, none of them damaged the Number, and he going insta G4 was to show how much his crew has developed in 2 years.

The Tobiroppo are > Numbers, so it actually means Luffy could have damaged that number while using G3.

In the end there is nothing here saying the Numbers have 7A+ durability.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Doubt it.

I don't care about Argument from Belief

 

[Eminiteable]

@XDragnoir For being treated as one of the stronger Tobi Roppo, to quote Sasaki (who alongside Who's Who are treated at around the highest level by King being former captains):
X Drake: "I have no interest..."
Sasaki: "If you're dropping out as a candidate that'd be great"

Or how Who's Who referred to Page One and Ulti as brats. Ulti herself overpowered Base Luffy (didn't harm him), that would make her > "at least 7-A" in base and Zoan forms amp them which upscales to 7-A+. Ultimately the Tobi Roppo should scale to each other, I just argued that Apoo shouldn't scale below them since he's not within their power system as far as we're made aware.

Is that not hypocritical? Zoro's defence is weaker but you're not applying the same to Apoo who was busy with Drake?

This has literally been gone over several times now, Zoro was off-guard, fighting no one and just in a state of confusion and then got attacked. Apoo had his guard up as he was literally fighting X Drake, they're not the same.

Actually precedent says that rating would apply to his weapons at best, not Apoo himself.

"at best" what are the weapons just randomly surviving? The weapons are taking constant attacks from X Drake and enduring it just fine, there's no "at best" about it. Wouldn't they not scale to both. as far as i can tell just because you're blocking with a weapon doesn't mean that force isn't getting transferred against you (Maybe this is more evidence for Apoo's striking strength being there, but like you mentioned Newton's Law means he scales in durability)

 

[KingTempest]

I don't care about Argument from Belief

Care about the explanation under.
The fact that you didn't counter my point means it's confirmation that I'm correct.

Wait a second, are Numbers 7A+?

Idk maybe.

Zoro and Jinbe only stopped it's attack, none of them damaged the Number, and he going insta G4 was to show how much his crew has developed in 2 years.

That actually doesn't prove anything. He could've proved his strength in weaker forms if necessary.

The Tobiroppo are > Numbers, so it actually means Luffy could have damaged that number while using G3.

How? Luffy would need to go Gear Fourth on a number, he could go Gear Fourth on a Tobiroppo (which he did).

In the end there is nothing here saying the Numbers have 7A+ durability.

I never stated that. I said Luffy went Gear Fourth when he has a base and 2 other forms to use. Luffy only goes Gear Fourth when he absolutely needs to.

 

[KingTempest]

Also.

Numbers took hits from Apoo, and he basically says they only were hurt because they were drunk.

Apoo: Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (His "Fighting Music" put a deep cut into Zoro and momentarily incapacitated Base Luffy during the Siege of Onigashima. He was able to leave a mark on Luffy from a blunt force attack, even with the latter's Blunt Force Resistance).

So there, 7-A+ numbers

 

[Eminiteable]

Numbers took hits from Apoo, and he basically says they only were hurt because they were drunk.

I don't think they they took hits from him, but either way the numbers aren't 7-A+ anyways since X Drake and a Kong gun one shot them, nor is that even relevant.

 

[XDragnoir]

Or how Who's Who referred to Page One and Ulti as brats. Ulti herself overpowered Base Luffy (didn't harm him), that would make her > "at least 7-A" in base and Zoan forms amp them which upscales to 7-A+. Ultimately the Tobi Roppo should scale to each other, I just argued that Apoo shouldn't scale below them since he's not within their power system as far as we're made aware.

We do not upscale the Zoan forms (Hybrid or full) to 7A+ just because they amp their user. You even said there was no mark left from Base Ulti's attack in Luffy, how exactly she overpowered Luffy? If you are talking about Full Zoan Ulti it would be lifting strength only since she didn't harm him.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't think they they took hits from him, but either way the numbers aren't 7-A+ anyways since X Drake and a Kong gun one shot them, nor is that even relevant.

If the numbers aren't 7A+ and Drake does not scale above Apoo who has the only 7A+ feat them there is no 7A+ Drake to clash with Apoo.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think they they took hits from him, but either way the numbers aren't 7-A+ anyways since X Drake and a Kong gun one shot them, nor is that even relevant.

Same numbers jumped up right after, they were alright

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I don't think that numbers are really that strong, If I remember correctly Franky was confident on taking them on but he didn't want to finish his colas.

 

[KingTempest]

Franky isn't weak he has lasers (which via Kizaru, defy durability) and he was the first one to land standing hits on the Pacifista pre timeskip.

Franky ≠ weak

 

[Eminiteable]

We do not upscale the Zoan forms (Hybrid or full) to 7A+ just because they amp their user.

Since when? If Base Ulti is > at least 7-A and base X Drake is =\> base Ulti and Zoans Amp them largely then why not?

You even said there was no mark left from Base Ulti's attack in Luffy, how exactly she overpowered Luffy?

They clashed, Luffy lost the clash evidently by the fact he got smashed into the ground. Overpowring =\= damaging since Luffy has higher durability than his Base AP.

 

[Eminiteable]

Franky isn't weak he has lasers (which via Kizaru, defy durability) and he was the first one to land standing hits on the Pacifista pre timeskip.

Franky ≠ weak

Apparently Franky's lasers don't negate durability, although they should since Kizaru's only do since apparently lasers are treated as Dura negation on this wiki due to them being light.

 

[Dr.Fix]

This has literally been gone over several times now

Do not use that with me. I have been having these discussions with @Damage3245 @The_Calaca @CinCameron20 on these topics a lot longer than you.

 

[Eminiteable]

Do not use that with me. I have been having these discussions with @Damage3245 @The_Calaca @CinCameron20 on these topics a lot longer than you.

No clue what you're talking about, but on this thread alone it's been brought up several times that Apoo's durability wouldn't lower since he's not off guard, that the case with Zoro isn't a case off attacking someone while they're guard was down.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Care about the explanation under.
The fact that you didn't counter my point means it's confirmation that I'm correct.

The argument is all Belief. You think Luffy needed Gear 4 because he went into it immediately. Show me a feat and I will consider it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Since when? If Base Ulti is > at least 7-A and base X Drake is =\> base Ulti and Zoans Amp them largely then why not?

They clashed, Luffy lost the clash evidently by the fact he got smashed into the ground. Overpowring =\= damaging since Luffy has higher durability than his Base AP.

Well, i agree with you we should give these kind of transformations the next rank of AP (some Sulongs being 420 for being a massive power up to the already >377 Minks, for example) but i don't remember a single time we did that, mainly in this case where Pay-tan spilled blood from a G3 attack, meaning he isn't at this level and would be 420 at best.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Franky isn't weak he has lasers (which via Kizaru, defy durability) and he was the first one to land standing hits on the Pacifista pre timeskip.

Franky ≠ weak

But you know, there is a huuuuuuge gap between Franky and Luffy, and how can Sanji be 7-A and Numbers 7-A+ when the cook implied that he and Luffy could take on numbers, but they would have waste time?