One Piece Chapter 1026: "The Pivotal Clash" (Official Release)

[TauanVictor]

So where's the CRT with Luffy's 6-B update?

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, i have a problem with Kata scaling even close to Jack, mainly because the Luffy/G3 that was equal to Katakuri's strongest attack is weaker than the one that KO'ed Paypay, who in turn is much weaker than Jack.

Also, only mrks claim Sanji is weaker than base Vergo.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Well, i have a problem with Kata scaling even close to Jack, mainly because the Luffy/G3 that was equal to Katakuri's strongest attack is weaker than the one that KO'ed Paypay, who in turn is much weaker than Jack.

Also, only mrks claim Sanji is weaker than base Vergo.

Didn’t Katakuri easily overpower G3?

I kinda agree this is weird though since pre-Udon Boundman has anti feats for scaling to 6-B

 

[Eminiteable]

Didn’t Katakuri easily overpower G3?

Round one he did with just his mochi power's, round two he grew stronger and matched his awakening.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Round one he did with just his mochi power's, round two he grew stronger and matched his awakening.

Luffy should had reactive power level on his profile for this reason.

 

[RadicalMrR]

The best sky splitting feat on panel just dropped and the main talking point is Neko vaguely getting the upperhand on Neko

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Is anyone planning to calc it? Is it not likely to provide an upgrade?

 

[theultimate5105]

Is anyone planning to calc it? Is it not likely to provide an upgrade?

I doubt it will if it happened in one panel yes but it happened over multiple panels

 

[WrongIdea21]

The problem is the timeframe

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Is there no reasons way to estimate timeframe? We at least have 3 panels of the clouds moving away from the moon.

 

[XDragnoir]

I once heard each panel can be taken as 1 second, so the timeframe wouldn't be less than 4s if that is true.

I don't remember where i heard it tho so no idea if it's true or not.

 

[WrongIdea21]

have KT's timeframe and Lightning speed been rejected in a similar calc?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Is there no reasons way to estimate timeframe? We at least have 3 panels of the clouds moving away from the moon.

Timeframe is seconds lmao

Peros was like 5 feet away from Neko before the moon showed up again

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yonkou Level Luffy, what the actual frick.

So it goes

Pre-Udon Training, Post-Udon Training and Haoshoku Coating, huh?


Imo, his Post-Training key would go something like:

At least Island Level (Can stand up to Kaido, who could one shot his Gear 4 form before), higher with Gear 2, Country Level with Gear 3, Conqueror's Coating (Can consistently harm Kaido)

This is a very rough example though. But that's how I'd scale Current Luffy.


Gear 4th is accepted as 4x stronger than Gear 2nd, so shouldn't Gear 2nd backscale from it?

Gear 4th: 12.7 Teratons (Country Level)
Gear 2nd: 3.1 Teratons (Small Country Level)

I could see the argument that "Well, Luffy is only Country Level because of Ryou and CoC, regardless of his gears"
I have no counter for it though.

 

[CinCameron20]

Kaido has only ever one-shot Luffy while using his Haoshoku coating. Frankly, we don't have a reason to assume Kaido's base AP would be capable of one-shotting WCI Gear 4th Luffy.

Kaido only threw one attack with Haoshoku coating (Thunder Bagua), and Luffy only got grazed by it. Nothing implies it wouldn't have one shot him there. Later, Kaido landed Ragnarok which was the only other Haoshoku attack we've seen him throw, and it temporarily incapacitated Luffy.

IGNORING TRANSFORMATIONS unless specified: WCI Luffy (Buso included) ~ Post-Udon Luffy (Buso included) << Kaido Base ~ Luffy (Ryuo) < Zoan Kaido < Bound-Man Luffy (Ryuo) < Kaido (Haoshoku coating) ~ Luffy (Haoshoku Coating).

Too bad there are no reliable visual indicators to show when Luffy was using Ryuo, but it's safe to assume he was using it when striking Kaido with Bound-Man.

Funnily enough, if it weren't for the Haoshoku trick, I think King might give Kaido a run for his money (assuming he can force Zoro to use Ashura)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Kaido has only ever one-shot Luffy while using his Haoshoku coating. Frankly, we don't have a reason to assume Kaido's base AP would be capable of one-shotting WCI Gear 4th Luffy.

Big Mom one-shot WCI Gear 4th Luffy without it, casually so. You don't make contact while using Haoshoku Coating.

Kaido only threw one attack with Haoshoku coating (Thunder Bagua), and Luffy only got grazed by it.

If it has Haoshoku Coating, it shouldn't matter due to extended range.

Nothing implies it wouldn't have one shot him there. Later, Kaido landed Ragnarok which was the only other Haoshoku attack we've seen him throw, and it temporarily incapacitated Luffy.

Why would he only use Haoshoku attacks on NAMED Attacks and not casually like the much-less experienced Luffy does? Like what-

Funnily enough, if it weren't for the Haoshoku trick, I think King might give Kaido a run for his money (assuming he can force Zoro to use Ashura)

What...? You really think Kaido is ONLY so much stronger due to Haoshoku?... Well that's a very interesting opinion.

 

[WrongIdea21]

At least Island Level (Can stand up to Kaido, who could one shot his Gear 4 form before), higher with Gear 2, Country Level with Gear 3, Conqueror's Coating (Can consistently harm Kaido)

He's country in his base lmao

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He's country in his base lmao

He is Country Level in any given form due to Haoshoku. He is still at least Island Level with Ryou alone though.

 

[WrongIdea21]

He is Country Level in any given form due to Haoshoku. He is still at least Island Level with Ryou alone though.

I think ryou is Durability negation, but Haoshoku coating is not. He already shown comparable to Hybrid Zoan Kaido in base form, His snakeman Also doesn't one shot Kaido, Kaido's just had insane Stamina.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think ryou is Durability negation, but Haoshoku coating is not. He already shown comparable to Hybrid Zoan Kaido in base form, His snakeman Also doesn't one shot Kaido, Kaido's just had insane Stamina.

Ryou is just flow of your haki. Internal Damage is beyond Ryou.

Again, the form he uses doesn't really matter since the level of his Haoshoku Coating doesn't change in power (you can't train it).

 

[RoyGundam]

IIRC Gouken is the durability negation application of Haki

 

[WrongIdea21]

Ryou is just flow of your haki. Internal Damage is beyond Ryou.

Ryou is just the Wano Haki Name, but people in Wano used different techniques to used Haki, They used Haki to do internal damage, we call it ryou to make it easier to explain, because the technique is different from haki in general.

Again, the form he uses doesn't really matter since the level of his Haoshoku Coating doesn't change in power (you can't train it).

yes I agree that Haoshoku is just to give buffs to attacks, but this is Luffy's base form, if base Luffy AP + Haoshoku coating is matched Kaido, of course his Gears will be stronger with Haoshoku coating.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ryou is just the Wano Haki Name, but people in Wano used different techniques to used Haki, They used Haki to do internal damage, we call it ryou to make it easier to explain, because the technique is different from haki in general.

No. Ryou literally means "Flow", you flow the haki through your fists to create an armor-like power. Internal Damage is BEYOND what people can do on Wano, as Hyogoro himself stated. Common misconception though.

yes I agree that Haoshoku is just to give buffs to attacks, but this is Luffy's base form, if base Luffy AP + Haoshoku coating is matched Kaido, of course his Gears will be stronger with Haoshoku coating.

It doesn't "buff" attacks, my guy. You don't make physical contact. At all. So your physical AP is irrelevant here, it's pure Haoshoku.

 

[WrongIdea21]

No. Ryou literally means "Flow", you flow the haki through your fists to create an armor-like power. Internal Damage is BEYOND what people can do on Wano, as Hyogoro himself stated. Common misconception though.

You mean like this? ,when Luffy talking about Haki Hyogoro also said that haki is a foreign concept, they known haki as ryou , but they used different techniques to apply Haki .

It doesn't "buff" attacks, my guy. You don't make physical contact. At all. So your physical AP is irrelevant here, it's pure Haoshoku.

Doesn't make physical contact doesn't matter, since his attack power is differents with his casual attack with haki in base form.

 

[CinCameron20]

Big Mom one-shot WCI Gear 4th Luffy without it, casually so. You don't make contact while using Haoshoku Coating.

If it has Haoshoku Coating, it shouldn't matter due to extended range.

Why would he only use Haoshoku attacks on NAMED Attacks and not casually like the much-less experienced Luffy does? Like what-


What...? You really think Kaido is ONLY so much stronger due to Haoshoku?... Well that's a very interesting opinion.

Big Mom did not even attack Luffy. Luffy threw a single punch as promised, and then retreated. Using Gear 4th drains him greatly.

Kaido's attack itself grazed Luffy. You don't seem to get that. Luffy partially dodged the attack. Had he taken it head-on, he would have probably been temporarily KO'd like with Ragnarok.

Kaido was holding back against Luffy. Simple as that. He wasn't taking him seriously. There's no indicator that he was using Haoshoku until he used Ragnarok. He and Big Mom stated multiple times that they have underestimated the group during the fight.

You're underselling the Commanders if you think the Yonko are just worlds stronger than them. King is directly under Kaido, and the Commanders under the Yonko are praised for their power. And I said King could give Non-Haoshoku Kaido a run for his money IF he pushes Zoro into using Ashura.

 

[CinCameron20]

You mean like this? ,when Luffy talking about Haki Hyogoro also said that haki is a foreign concept, they known haki as ryou , but they used different techniques to apply Haki .

Luffy was looking back at what Hyogoro said, and realized that his use of Ryou was "too shallow", but he could not understand why until that point. All he was using was Busoshoku. It took him until this point to fully realize Haoshoku had to be involved for the desired effects. Up until 1010, Luffy had just been using regular Ryou, a far inferior version to using Haoshoku.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Big Mom did not even attack Luffy. Luffy threw a single punch as promised, and then retreated. Using Gear 4th drains him greatly.

Using it for 0.4 seconds doesn't, this weakness had no reason to randomly appear at that specific point and you're just using it as an excuse. Big Mom shrugged him off, and knocked him out with regular armament. End of story.

Kaido's attack itself grazed Luffy. You don't seem to get that. Luffy partially dodged the attack. Had he taken it head-on, he would have probablyess been temporarily KO'd like with Ragnarok.

He could take multiple hits from Hybrid Kaido in base form and he'd be knocked out by Base Kaido's Thunder Bagua?

Kaido was holding back against Luffy. Simple as that. He wasn't taking him seriously. There's no indicator that he was using Haoshoku until he used Ragnarok. He and Big Mom stated multiple times that they have underestimated the group during the fight.

Show me one panel of Kaido's attacks making contact with Luffy. Boro Breath is naturally not included.

You're underselling the Commanders if you think the Yonko are just worlds stronger than them. King is directly under Kaido, and the Commanders under the Yonko are praised for their power. And I said King could give Non-Haoshoku Kaido a run for his money IF he pushes Zoro into using Ashura.

You're the one overestimating the Commanders, the difference between Marco and Whitebeard is huge. The difference between what Katakuri has shown vs what Big Mom has shown is even bigger.
King is fighting an injured Zoro, even if Zoro pulls it off and it one shots him, King won't even come CLOSE to Hakiless Kaido, the one who could take punches from Gear 3rd Luffy, Gear 4th Luffy, and more while drunk.

 

[Damage3245]

Using it for 0.4 seconds doesn't, this weakness had no reason to randomly appear at that specific point and you're just using it as an excuse. Big Mom shrugged him off, and knocked him out with regular armament. End of story.

Big Mom didn't hit Luffy.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Big Mom didn't hit Luffy.

Fair Enough. Sucks to suck. (Just read the chapter)

Still, she did take Luffy's punch with basic Haki casually. Base Kaido's physicals definitely scale.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You mean like this? ,when Luffy talking about Haki Hyogoro also said that haki is a foreign concept, they known haki as ryou , but they used different techniques to apply Haki.

Time to prove a point, I guess. There are actually four stages of Haki.


First of, Luffy was trying to learn the kind of Haki that attacks without making any contact whatsoever, which normal Armament can't do, obviously.
"It was really off the charts, I guess... If I could learn to use that"
So yeah, it was something beyond hardening. (Chapter 937, Pg. 2)

Here, he tries to imitate Rayleigh, and punch without making contact, but he couldn't pull it off, and says "That's only normal armament haki", again, separating the two. (Chapter 939)

On page 14 of the same chapter, he describes he wants to punch them without even touching to Hyogoro-Sama.

In response to that specific information, Hyogoro informs Luffy that a similar technique exists in Wano.

Notice how, when trying to demonstrate Ryou, he uses Advanced Haki, without touching, as Luffy wanted.
To which Luffy replies: "Yeah, that's it! Teach me how to do that"
Meaning Ryou cannot be normal Armament Haki, since it's the one Luffy wants to learn. Which, again, Luffy already stated it wasn't normal armament, and it was off the charts.

Here, Hyogoro-sama does say Haki IS Ryou, BUT he also says it's based on Flow, to let the unused Haki of the entire body flow through his fists, which obviously you don't have to do for regular armament. (Chapter 940)

Here, Hyogoro says: "Before you forget what you did, protect me", stating that internal damage and attacking without touching are two separate things. Ryou is still Advanced Haki though. (Chapter 946)

"Straw Hat, what you did is far beyond the Ryou I was trying to teach you" (Chapter 947)
Again, Ryou and Internal Damage are two different things too.
Which was also explained here.

The terminology would be something like:

Invisible Armament = Rudimentary Haki
Hardening (Koka) = Proficient Haki
No physical contact = Proficient Haki/Ryou
Internal Damage = Advanced Haki

Doesn't make physical contact doesn't matter, since his attack power is differents with his casual attack with haki in base form.

Haoshoku Haki cannot be trained under any circumstance, his physicals are irrelevant. His Attack Power is based purely on his Haoshoku Haki. Base Luffy's Physicals are not Country Level, only with Gear 4th.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Ryou is just the Wano Haki Name, but people in Wano used different techniques to used Haki, They used Haki to do internal damage, we call it ryou to make it easier to explain, because the technique is different from haki in general.

No. Ryou literally means "Flow", you flow the haki through your fists to create an armor-like power. Internal Damage is BEYOND what people can do on Wano, as Hyogoro himself stated.

Ryou is still Advanced Haki though

Ryou and Internal Damage are two different things too

Internal Damage = Advanced Haki

You're complicating yourself with circling explanations, even though the point is the same as mine.

Haoshoku Haki cannot be trained under any circumstance, his physicals are irrelevant.

I never saying it can be trained, his physical is still relevant since they're hold the force of their Haki.

His Attack Power is based purely on his Haoshoku Haki. Base Luffy's Physicals are not Country Level, only with Gear 4th.

Still, the Haki come from his physical body . Base Luffy could hurt and trade a force with Hybrid Kaido, g4 do the same as base but with better attack power.

Base Luffy + Haoshoku Haki = Country level or purely Haoshoku coating = Country level, which one do you think is better?

So the rating would be Like this. Country level With Haoshoku Coating.

Never seen something like this in others verse tbh

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're complicating yourself with circling explanations, even though the point is the same as mine.

You're the one who replied to me when I stated Ryou is an advanced form of Haki.

I never saying it can be trained, his physical is still relevant since they're hold the force of their Haki.

They don't? The actual attack power behind the Haoshoku is not related to the physical force whatsoever. It's like threating Haoshoku Coating as as a baseball, the harder you hit, the stronger the power. But it's quite literally not like that.
Haoshoku doesn't depend on momentum, or how hard you can punch, because even if Luffy were to tap Kaid- You know what, I don't even know what I'm talking about, I concede.

Base Luffy + Haoshoku Haki = Country level or purely Haoshoku coating = Country level, which one do you think is better?

So the rating would be Like this. Country level With Haoshoku Coating.

You're complicating yourself with circling explanations, even though the point is the same as mine.

Country Level with Gear 3rd and Haoshoku Coating seems fine, as I said earlier. Without it, Luffy can't do much

 

[WrongIdea21]

You're the one who replied to me when I stated Ryou is an advanced form of Haki

You said Ryou is beyond durability negation

Country Level with Gear 3rd and Haoshoku Coating seems fine, as I said earlier. Without it, Luffy can't do much

This is would be funny, base Luffy with haoshoku hurt Kaido, Gear3rd red roc basically Red hawk in gear 3rd and hurt Kaido too, Jet Culverin doing the same, overall Luffy would be Country level in his base up to gear4th.

8 Terratons ~Base Kaido~Full Dragon Kaido< Hybrid Kaido ~ Base Luffy AP< Gear 3rd < Gear 4th SM< Gear 4th BM.

Luffy surpasses All of One piece character

 

[CinCameron20]

Using it for 0.4 seconds doesn't, this weakness had no reason to randomly appear at that specific point and you're just using it as an excuse. Big Mom shrugged him off, and knocked him out with regular armament. End of story.

He could take multiple hits from Hybrid Kaido in base form and he'd be knocked out by Base Kaido's Thunder Bagua?

Show me one panel of Kaido's attacks making contact with Luffy. Boro Breath is naturally not included.

You're the one overestimating the Commanders, the difference between Marco and Whitebeard is huge. The difference between what Katakuri has shown vs what Big Mom has shown is even bigger.
King is fighting an injured Zoro, even if Zoro pulls it off and it one shots him, King won't even come CLOSE to Hakiless Kaido, the one who could take punches from Gear 3rd Luffy, Gear 4th Luffy, and more while drunk.

Big Mom didn't hit Luffy. Also, this is the only instance where Luffy has used Gear 4th for less than 25 minutes (pre-Udon), so where's the evidence that he would not be drained after using Gear 4th for a few seconds? There's nothing to counter this. All he says about Gear 4th is that is renders him unable to use Haki for 10 minutes.

You contradict yourself with your 2nd and 3rd points. You say Luffy "took multiple hits from Hybrid Kaido", but then go on to demand that I show you "one panel of Kaido's attacks making contact with Luffy"... What?? Also, here is one such instance. We also see Luffy come flying from off-panel after taking a blow from either Kaido or Big Mom before the Hybrid Kaido reveal. And why are you excluding Boro Breath?? The only person it hits directly is Luffy anyways.

• Edit: Also, yes. Kaido's Thunder Bagua in base form could very well be superior to his NORMAL Hybrid attacks. Luffy withstood Kaido's Hybrid club strike without suffering much damage, yet Ragnarok KO'd him outright for a short period. Not to mention the touch of Kaido's Thunder Bagua left Luffy reeling and bleeding despite the fact it did not hit him directly.

You're underselling the Commanders quite severely. What evidence is there that the difference between Marco and WB is "huge"? Marco clashed evenly with Akainu and later battled against him and other Marine Officers alongside the WB pirates (in fact, he was spear-heading them). Akainu could hold his ground against Whitebeard's Quakes for some time and clashed with him as well.

King is fighting a recovered Zoro, who is stated to be capable of fighting at full capacity at the cost of immense side-effects once the medicine wears off. Zoro is very much at 100% right now, and he is requiring his Haki-imbued blades to fight evenly with King who is currently restricting himself to Base form. Kinghas yet to use his Devil Fruit or his flame ability on Zoro, yet he has already matched Haki-amp'd Zoro blow for blow. Hell, King is not even using Haki right now (But this point would be irrelevant if he can not imbue his weapon with Haki, so this is a 50-50 thing)

• While I would say Zoro is likely not being amp'd by Enma atm, he still temp incapacitated Apoo with a single blow.

Kaido being drunk does not lower his durability what-so-ever. Also "and more". He took nothing "more" than Gear 4th Luffy.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Can somebody calculate the cloud splitting?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Big Mom didn't hit Luffy. Also, this is the only instance where Luffy has used Gear 4th for less than 25 minutes (pre-Udon), so where's the evidence that he would not be drained after using Gear 4th for a few seconds? There's nothing to counter this. All he says about Gear 4th is that is renders him unable to use Haki for 10 minutes.

Fair enough. But the weakness thing doesn't make any sense, it was stated he was unable to use Haki for 10 minutes because the form uses too much Haki.
It'd make zero sense for a stronger Luffy be out of Haki faster than a far weaker Luffy on Dressrosa.
Either way, I concede about Big Mom hitting Luffy, it was some kind of mixed memories from the Anime and the Manga. Sorry about that.
But that does not change the fact Big Mom took a hit from Gear 4th Luffy casually with normal armament. Base Kaido and Big Mom's physicals should scale above him regardless.

You contradict yourself with your 2nd and 3rd points. You say Luffy "took multiple hits from Hybrid Kaido", but then go on to demand that I show you "one panel of Kaido's attacks making contact with Luffy"... What??

I believe that's misinterpretation on your end. I meant that Luffy took attacks from Kaido, Haoshoku Attacks wouldn't make any contact, and since it seems like they use it casually, any average hit would be referring to Haoshoku Coating attacks. At least that's what I meant.

Also, here is one such instance. We also see Luffy come flying from off-panel after taking a blow from either Kaido or Big Mom before the Hybrid Kaido reveal.

Both of these could be Haoshoku Imbued, Thunder Bagua, which you accept as Haoshoku Imbued, is represented the exact same way. The off-panel one has no weight on your argument too.
The thing is, duh, of course Oda wouldn't show it clearly before the actual reveal of Haoshoku Coating, but Luffy implies he understands what Kaido has been doing after he gets hit, so yeah, you can see the intention there.

And why are you excluding Boro Breath?? The only person it hits directly is Luffy anyways.

Because Boro Breath can't be imbued with Haoshoku as far as we know. Lmao. Sorry, but... are you really understanding my point here?

• Edit: Also, yes. Kaido's Thunder Bagua in base form could very well be superior to his NORMAL Hybrid attacks. Luffy withstood Kaido's Hybrid club strike without suffering much damage, yet Ragnarok KO'd him outright for a short period. Not to mention the touch of Kaido's Thunder Bagua left Luffy reeling and bleeding despite the fact it did not hit him directly.

Not a fair comparison at all. Luffy got way stronger as he fought, we can see that during the fight. And Databook refutes this by saying Hybrid Kaido's physical attack is far beyond his previous forms.

It would make no sense for:
Base Kaido+Haki > Hybrid Kaido+Haki

You're underselling the Commanders quite severely. What evidence is there that the difference between Marco and WB is "huge"? Marco clashed evenly with Akainu and later battled against him and other Marine Officers alongside the WB pirates (in fact, he was spear-heading them). Akainu could hold his ground against Whitebeard's Quakes for some time and clashed with him as well.

There's the whole shtick with Marco being unable to stand up to Blackbeard specifically because of WB's Powers.

But let me counter some of your scans.
First off, "clashed evenly" is disingenuous. Mihawk clashed "evenly" with Crocodile. Crocodile clashed evenly with Doflamingo. Clashing doesn't mean much for powerscaling, if it means anything at all. Marineford had multiple "even clashes" that make no sense whatsoever. But when we actually look at how their powers are actually portrayed.

Akainu faced off 10 commanders+crocodile on his own.
And defeated at least some of them while not even trying to fight, but to get to luffy
Marco could even overpower Kizaru.
Had to fight Akainu with Vista, and still couldn't do much

Also, you're... sort of lying. This wasn't a clash, Marco was on the defensive, and Akainu was attacking someone else. Marco intercepted him and blocked his attack, being knock back also. So no clash even happened in the first place.

King is fighting a recovered Zoro, who is stated to be capable of fighting at full capacity at the cost of immense side-effects once the medicine wears off. Zoro is very much at 100% right now, and he is requiring his Haki-imbued blades to fight

Zoro uses Haki-imbued blades on any major opponent. King is a major opponent.

You can't scale King, to Zoro, to then partially scale to Kaido, who has only been hurt after being in several fights. This makes no sense. The Zoro fight will not do anything for scaling.

evenly with King who is currently restricting himself to Base form. King has yet to use his Devil Fruit or his flame ability on Zoro, yet he has already matched Haki-amp'd Zoro blow for blow.

Clashes. Again, clashing isn't fit for powerscaling.

Hell, King is not even using Haki right now (But this point would be irrelevant if he can not imbue his weapon with Haki, so this is a 50-50 thing)

We literally don't know that. He might be using it on his body.

Kaido being drunk does not lower his durability what-so-ever. Also "and more". He took nothing "more" than Gear 4th Luffy.

Of course it does. He didn't even know what was happening. He wasn't using Haki to defend himself. He didn't react to any of Luffy's attacks. He had nothing and still tanked any attacks from Luffy casually.

"We have no evidence that Base Kaido's AP would One Shot Luffy", lmao. Yeah, sure.

Base Kaido (+Haki/no coating) >>>>>>> Hakiless Kaido > WCI Gear 4th Luffy

And King is supposed to have, somehow, enough Haki and natural physical capacities to give "Haoshokuless" Kaido a "run for his money"? Not even counting Hybrid Forms? Yeah, good luck with that headcanon.

There is clear King bias going on here, and I'm not here for it. Commanders can't come close to Yonkous in any way, shape or form.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You said Ryou is beyond durability negation

I said the exact opposite actually.

Ryou is just flow of your haki. Internal Damage is beyond Ryou.

This is would be funny, base Luffy with haoshoku hurt Kaido, Gear3rd red roc basically Red hawk in gear 3rd and hurt Kaido too, Jet Culverin doing the same, overall Luffy would be Country level in his base up to gear4th.

8 Terratons ~Base Kaido~Full Dragon Kaido< Hybrid Kaido ~ Base Luffy AP< Gear 3rd < Gear 4th SM< Gear 4th BM.

Luffy surpasses All of One piece character

12.7 Teratons*
Funny enough, this loophole is the reason why Gear Multipliers can't influence Haoshoku AP.

 

[CinCameron20]

Fair enough. But the weakness thing doesn't make any sense, it was stated he was unable to use Haki for 10 minutes because the form uses too much Haki.
It'd make zero sense for a stronger Luffy be out of Haki faster than a far weaker Luffy on Dressrosa.
Either way, I concede about Big Mom hitting Luffy, it was some kind of mixed memories from the Anime and the Manga. Sorry about that.
But that does not change the fact Big Mom took a hit from Gear 4th Luffy casually with normal armament. Base Kaido and Big Mom's physicals should scale above him regardless.

I believe that's misinterpretation on your end. I meant that Luffy took attacks from Kaido, Haoshoku Attacks wouldn't make any contact, and since it seems like they use it casually, any average hit would be referring to Haoshoku Coating attacks. At least that's what I meant.

Both of these could be Haoshoku Imbued, Thunder Bagua, which you accept as Haoshoku Imbued, is represented the exact same way. The off-panel one has no weight on your argument too.
The thing is, duh, of course Oda wouldn't show it clearly before the actual reveal of Haoshoku Coating, but Luffy implies he understands what Kaido has been doing after he gets hit, so yeah, you can see the intention there.

Because Boro Breath can't be imbued with Haoshoku as far as we know. Lmao. Sorry, but... are you really understanding my point here?

Not a fair comparison at all. Luffy got way stronger as he fought, we can see that during the fight. And Databook refutes this by saying Hybrid Kaido's physical attack is far beyond his previous forms.

It would make no sense for:
Base Kaido+Haki > Hybrid Kaido+Haki

There's the whole shtick with Marco being unable to stand up to Blackbeard specifically because of WB's Powers.

But let me counter some of your scans.
First off, "clashed evenly" is disingenuous. Mihawk clashed "evenly" with Crocodile. Crocodile clashed evenly with Doflamingo. Clashing doesn't mean much for powerscaling, if it means anything at all. Marineford had multiple "even clashes" that make no sense whatsoever. But when we actually look at how their powers are actually portrayed.

Akainu faced off 10 commanders+crocodile on his own.
And defeated at least some of them while not even trying to fight, but to get to luffy
Marco could even overpower Kizaru.
Had to fight Akainu with Vista, and still couldn't do much

Also, you're... sort of lying. This wasn't a clash, Marco was on the defensive, and Akainu was attacking someone else. Marco intercepted him and blocked his attack, being knock back also. So no clash even happened in the first place.

Zoro uses Haki-imbued blades on any major opponent. King is a major opponent.

You can't scale King, to Zoro, to then partially scale to Kaido, who has only been hurt after being in several fights. This makes no sense. The Zoro fight will not do anything for scaling.

Clashes. Again, clashing isn't fit for powerscaling.

We literally don't know that. He might be using it on his body.

Of course it does. He didn't even know what was happening. He wasn't using Haki to defend himself. He didn't react to any of Luffy's attacks. He had nothing and still tanked any attacks from Luffy casually.

"We have no evidence that Base Kaido's AP would One Shot Luffy", lmao. Yeah, sure.

Base Kaido (+Haki/no coating) >>>>>>> Hakiless Kaido > WCI Gear 4th Luffy

And King is supposed to have, somehow, enough Haki and natural physical capacities to give "Haoshokuless" Kaido a "run for his money"? Not even counting Hybrid Forms? Yeah, good luck with that headcanon.

There is clear King bias going on here, and I'm not here for it. Commanders can't come close to Yonkous in any way, shape or form.

You seem to be ignoring my points entirely, so i'm just gonna point one thing out. I'm saying Kaido one-shots Luffy when using Haoshoku EXCLUSIVELY. Kaido has no evidence of being able to one-shot Luffy without it, because he has only been able to do so with HAOSHOKU.

 

[RoyGundam]

I don't think Top Commander <<< Yonko makes a lot of sense. A severely injured Zoro with Ashura put a permanent scar on Kaido - which is basically the same level of feat as achieved by Oden 20 years ago. If King is able to push Zoro into using Ashura again, then I feel like it only makes sense to scale both of them to Oden

Note : present day Kaido is likely stronger than he was 20 years ago

 

[Ebitan34]

I don't think Top Commander <<< Yonko makes a lot of sense. A severely injured Zoro with Ashura put a permanent scar on Kaido - which is basically the same level of feat as achieved by Oden 20 years ago. If King is able to push Zoro into using Ashura again, then I feel like it only makes sense to scale both of them to Oden

Note : present day Kaido is likely stronger than he was 20 years ago

I mean while he did put a permanent scar on Kaido, Kaido wasn't slowed down in the slightest in subsequent fights. Meanwhile Kaido one shotted Zoro and Law with a single Thunder Bagua putting them out of combat for the time being.

Yonko still >> Top Commander no matter how you look at it.