Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued

[Expectro2000xxx]

What's the Paul Bunyun feat again?

Paul Bunyan can shatter the entire Rocky Mountain range with a single pickaxe strike

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Just because Caliburn was inside Berserker doesn't mean anything, if he was really comparable to Caliburn, he would't have been killed 7 times over

"Just because a nuke was set off point-blank inside someone's body doesn't mean anything. If he was really comparable to the nuke he wouldn't have died, Ignore how this other character has TWO feats of tanking said nuke from the outside"

Like yeah if you ignore very basic logic that literally makes scaling even more abundantly obvious then i guess you make sense

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"Just because a nuke was set off point-blank inside someone's body doesn't mean anything. If he was really comparable to the nuke he wouldn't have died, Ignore how this other character has TWO feats of tanking said nuke from the outside"

Name the two feats of him tanking an A+ Rank Noble Phantasm

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Paul Bunyan can shatter the entire Rocky Mountain range with a single pickaxe strike

Is that feat based on Paul Bunyans Noble Phantasm and if so? What Rank is their Noble Phantasm?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Except you know... Herc got killed 7 times over by an A+ Rank Noble Phantasm

Herc got killed 7 times over by the NP inside of his own body, the sword released the light inside of him

Even disregarding the fact that internal durability being lower than the outside is a logical thing, this wouldn't make the Nero thing an outlier

And to the people saying the Nero thing is an outlier, it's evidently not because it's made consistent in its own show, it's not a one off thing, its backed up by the same event happening again, once while she's tired from fighting, and another time when she wins.

And since Fate/Stay Night is the first Fate, it takes priority as the source material

Bruh what, that's the opposite of how it works. Serveral things have been made outdated from that era, or changed and elaborated on, thus newer stuff takes precedence otherwise you get absurd stuff like Gil>Arjuna Alter because he's the strongest servant.

And since people are back on the rank thing, I implore you to go look at the earlier posts in the thread where I explain how most ranks are, in the end, relative to eachother, and the only difference is an arbitrary low amount most of the time, if at all.

Now, let's even ignore how internal durability is lower, as a wiki wide assumption. Why would Herc dying to Caliburn, in the first part of the series, make something more recent invalid? Why would him dying in the earliest part of the franchise not be the outlier when we've given other examples showing why the Nero thing wouldn't be the outlier?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Name the two feats of him tanking an A+ Rank Noble Phantasm

I said this other character.


Nero blocks galatine. Twice. That's two feats, above one feat that has very specific circumstances behind it that you oh-so-conveniently keep ignoring.

Is that feat based on Paul Bunyans Noble Phantasm and if so? What Rank is their Noble Phantasm?

It's A-rank.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Is that feat based on Paul Bunyans Noble Phantasm and if so? What Rank is their Noble Phantasm?

His NP it's A and it's bassically she stepping, because of his great size it's treated more or less like Kingprotea.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I said this other character.


Nero blocks galatine. Twice. That's two feats, above one feat that has very specific circumstances behind it that you oh-so-conveniently keep ignoring.

It's A-rank.

I mean if the Nero feats are it, then those are the outliers, I don't agree that the Berserker feat isn't valid, it's far more valid than the Nero ones

I am for downscaling Base Stats to 1/3 of A Rank Noble Phantasms, which would be 6-C Base Stats

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why focus on herc so much?

What other characters survived Rank A+ AP based NP's?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Why focus on herc so much?

What other characters survived Rank A+ AP based NP's?

Cause Herc explicity has one of the best defenses and durability's in the series

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I mean if the Nero feats are it, then those are the outliers

As Paul said. Why would Multiple nero feats be the outlier over a single feat that has special circumstances behind it.

I don't agree that the Berserker feat isn't valid, it's far more valid than the Nero ones

Prove it. You have to prove things in threads like this instead of repeating the same claim that doesn't even help your argument

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Prove it. You have to prove things in threads like this instead of repeating the same claim that doesn't even help your argument

Because it is one thing if it killed him once, but it had enough power to kill him 7 times at once!

And sorry that I don't think Fate/Extra: Last Encore, the spin-off anime of a spin-off game is more valid the original Fate/Stay Night

I'm gonna put the Paul Bunyun feat in a blog and make a new CRT when that is accepted and done

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Because it is one thing if it killed him once, but it had enough power to kill him 7 times at once!

Yeah, when it was being wielded by two people at once, one of whom was ******* artoria, and it was EMBEDDED IN HIS INTERNALS THAT ARE < HIS EXTERNAL DURABILITY, that is a WIKI WIDE ASSUMPTION. If you want to discount that, good luck doing that to every single verse

Refer to paul's post, cause you seem to have ignored it in favor of mine.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Cause Herc explicity has one of the best defenses and durability's in the series

Yes, Herc has something that completely negates lower ranked attacks and is explicitly his skin

So something inside his body, where, shocker, his skin isn't covering, wouldn't really get defended against much

Now again as I said earlier in the thread and showed, the difference between ranks is absolutely not that big, so scaling them to different calcs doesn't make all too much sense, the weaker ones would just backscale from others bar special circumstances. And thus, treating surviving an A+ vs surviving an A as a major difference is an incorrect assumption. Unless you can prove that the difference between ranks is big and that NPs shouldn't be relative to eachother either.

So for other NPs he tanked, Caladbolg, with 0 damage. A broken phantasm one too so yes, it would have pierced his defense. Skinned Herc (no defenses or extra lives) survived eight hits (eight hits using his own strength which has been seen to be relative to NPs) from Nine Lives Blade Works. He survived Durandina through the chest, as did Asterios, the list goes on, and this is just for Herc.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yes, Herc has something that completely negates lower ranked attacks and is explicitly his skin

So something inside his body, where, shocker, his skin isn't covering, wouldn't really get defended against much

Now again as I said earlier in the thread and showed, the difference between ranks is absolutely not that big, so scaling them to different calcs doesn't make all too much sense, the weaker ones would just backscale from others bar special circumstances. And thus, treating surviving an A+ vs surviving an A as a major difference is an incorrect assumption. Unless you can prove that the difference between ranks is big and that NPs shouldn't be relative to eachother either.

So for other NPs he tanked, Caladbolg, with 0 damage. A broken phantasm one too so yes, it would have pierced his defense. Skinned Herc (no defenses or extra lives) survived eight hits (eight hits using his own strength which has been seen to be relative to NPs) from Nine Lives Blade Works. He survived Durandina through the chest, as did Asterios, the list goes on, and this is just for Herc.

What evidence is there that "A Rank Noble Phantasms" aren't far below "A+ Rank Noble Phantasms"?

Is that stated anywhere?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is it relevant to mention that Herc lost a life to Hekrors NP in ocean's? Just 1 life. It's rank A.

 

[Mageman460]

What about scaling him to 1/8th the value of Caliburn? As Caluburn could kill him 7 times, but not 8? Or is that not a valid approach?

 

[Regidian]

What evidence is there that "A Rank Noble Phantasms" aren't far below "A+ Rank Noble Phantasms"?

Is that stated anywhere?

I mean i don't have much problem with how you want backscake thing.

Just i don't think that heracles is not the best as he dura change each time we see him (in the last lostbelt he have tank a 4-B NP)...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Based on the info I'm seeing, I'm in agreement with Mitch. That Arondight thing came in clutch for the 1/3 scaling. 6-C base stats, 6-C+ A-Rank NPs, and Low 6-B A+ and higher NPs is what I'm gathering and I think that's good.

As for Nero, that's one character compared to others, especially when Heracles has one of the best defenses in the series. Let me put it this way: Berserker has one of the best defenses in the series and dies to an A-Rank NP, but somehow that's less valid than Nero, someone with less defensive prowess than Berserker, surviving an A+ Rank? Even if you say that the gap between A and A+ isn't much, that doesn't change the questionability of someone with less defense surviving a stronger attack when a weaker one killed a more defensively capable character.

Not even the "attacking from the inside" argument changes that fact.

 

[Regidian]

Based on the info I'm seeing, I'm in agreement with Mitch. That Arondight thing came in clutch for the 1/3 scaling. 6-C base stats, 6-C+ A-Rank NPs, and Low 6-B A+ and higher NPs is what I'm gathering and I think that's good.

As for Nero, that's one character compared to others, especially when Heracles has one of the best defenses in the series. Let me put it this way: Berserker has one of the best defenses in the series and dies to an A-Rank NP, but somehow that's less valid than Nero, someone with less defensive prowess than Berserker, surviving an A+ Rank? Even if you say that the gap between A and A+ isn't much, that doesn't change the questionability of someone with less defense surviving a stronger attack when a weaker one killed a more defensively capable character.

Not even the "attacking from the inside" argument changes that fact.

I mean in the same visual novel saber alter have tank a little weakened belcephon which is A+

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

As for Nero, that's one character compared to others, especially when Heracles has one of the best defenses in the series. Let me put it this way: Berserker has one of the best defenses in the series and dies to an A-Rank NP, but somehow that's less valid than Nero, someone with less defensive prowess than Berserker, surviving an A+ Rank? Even if you say that the gap between A and A+ isn't much, that doesn't change the questionability of someone with less defense surviving a stronger attack when a weaker one killed a more defensively capable character.

Caliburn's not A-rank, it's A+-rank.

ALso, what Regidan said. Bellerophon is A+ and hit Saber directly and she was getting back up before Shirou finished the job

Not even the "attacking from the inside" argument changes that fact.

Blocking an attack and being exhausted afterwards and dying to an equally-powerful attack that bypasses your main defense and goes off inside your internal organs are two things that can coexist, and it's really dumb to pretend they can't

 

[Paul_Frank]

What evidence is there that "A Rank Noble Phantasms" aren't far below "A+ Rank Noble Phantasms"?

Is that stated anywhere?

I'd retort with, what evidence is there that A+ rank NPs are far above A rank ones? The person making the positive claim "A+ rank NPs are far beyond A ranks" is the one who has to prove it

The closest thing we have to proof of that is the rank numeric value scale, which... is very unusable for obvious reasons if anyone who's seen more than FSN looks at

Earlier in the thread I was giving reasons why rank and designations in general aren't really absurd power differences like people like to think, mostly because ranks aren't consistent enough to be used for anything. Ranks exclusively have any semblance of consistency when they're needed for interactions with something, and even then, they're not consistent. So essentially, the proof is that ranks themselves are not consistent, especially with NPs, where lower rank ones clash with higher ones quite often nowadays.

Is it relevant to mention that Herc lost a life to Hekrors NP in ocean's? Just 1 life. It's rank A.

He died before the Hector thing actually, our group takes him out, he comes back, then Jason has Hector spear Asterios, which gets Herc as well.

As for Nero, that's one character compared to others, especially when Heracles has one of the best defenses in the series. Let me put it this way: Berserker has one of the best defenses in the series and dies to an A-Rank NP, but somehow that's less valid than Nero, someone with less defensive prowess than Berserker, surviving an A+ Rank? Even if you say that the gap between A and A+ isn't much, that doesn't change the questionability of someone with less defense surviving a stronger attack when a weaker one killed a more defensively capable character.

Except again, Nero's is more recent, thats the bottom line. Newer, if it contradicts older, takes precedent. And even disregarding that fact, Herc has survived A rank NPs before. He's also survived literal 2-A attacks, so his defenses being used as a consistent thing to rule out other examples doesn't even make sense when its inconsistent. He goes from dying to the internal attacks of Caliburn, to tanking Caladbolg, to having Gil's spears pierce him, to tanking Loptr Laegjarn, to tanking 2 shots from Artemis, to dying to Chaldea, to tanking Hector's spear and living. Yes, definitely a much more consistent thing than Nero surviving something twice, proving that it wasn't a fluke.

Not even the "attacking from the inside" argument changes that fact.

Why wouldn't it? Is internal durability suddenly equal to the external one? Is God Hand (His skin) suddenly protecting his insides too?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

In the VN, Saber didn't get hit by the full power of Bellerophon at all, Excalibur Morgan was said to have offset 90% of the attack because of the clash and even then, Saber was left crippled on the floor and would have gotten back up because of her regeneration, not because of just her durability

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Hektor kills Herc 1 time with an A-Rank Np while a Buffed Caliburn can kill Herc 7 times over. As Rank A+. That's a comparison of power isn't it? Is that a 6x difference?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Caliburn's not A-rank, it's A+-rank.

ALso, what Regidan said. Bellerophon is A+ and hit Saber directly and she was getting back up before Shirou finished the job

Blocking an attack and being exhausted afterwards and dying to an equally-powerful attack that bypasses your main defense and goes off inside your internal organs are two things that can coexist, and it's really dumb to pretend they can't

First off, I'm talking about Gil's A-Rank NP spam. A-Rank NPs from Gate of Babylon could kill him.

Second, wasn't Saber Alter heavily wounded from that and only managed to get up after Shirou couldn't will himself to finish the job? Plus, it took the combined effort of Rho Aias and Bellerophon to overpower Excalibur Morgan, and when it did hit, Excalibur Morgan knocked off 90% of its light, so that's not a good counter. Also, the notion of calling an opposition "dumb" to make people want to not feel dumb and thus agree isn't a good look. Even though I'm not even considering the internal attack part.

Except again, Nero's is more recent, thats the bottom line. Newer, if it contradicts older, takes precedent. And even disregarding that fact, Herc has survived A rank NPs before. He's also survived literal 2-A attacks, so his defenses being used as a consistent thing to rule out other examples doesn't even make sense when its inconsistent. He goes from dying to the internal attacks of Caliburn, to tanking Caladbolg, to having Gil's spears pierce him, to tanking Loptr Laegjarn, to tanking 2 shots from Artemis, to dying to Chaldea, to tanking Hector's spear and living. Yes, definitely a much more consistent thing than Nero surviving something twice, proving that it wasn't a fluke.

So just because it's newer, it should take precedence when someone with higher defensive ability dies to something weaker? I don't agree with that. Also, about what you said with A and A+ Ranks, the burden of proof is on you to prove that there isn't much of a gap. You need to do that, not answer it with a question asking the opposite.

Also, for what I said about the internal attack thing, I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that even that doesn't change the inconsistency I'm addressing.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'd retort with, what evidence is there that A+ rank NPs are far above A rank ones? The person making the positive claim "A+ rank NPs are far beyond A ranks" is the one who has to prove it

Nuh uh, that's not how it works, the burden of proof is on you to prove that A Rank NP's are comparable to A+ Rank NP's, the higher Rank means a lot as A++ are far stronger than A+ NP's

Higher Rank = More Power

So you need to provide evidence as to why A Rank is the same level of power as A+ Rank

 

[Regidian]

In the VN, Saber didn't get hit by the full power of Bellerophon at all, Excalibur Morgan was said to have offset 90% of the attack because of the clash and even then, Saber was left crippled on the floor and would have gotten back up because of her regeneration, not because of just her durability

Don't have tell she get hit by the full NP and She was not really crippled, as she was able to lift up in the vn she just need regen for being able to refight. And tanking 10% A+ rank is still big

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Nuh uh, that's not how it works, the burden of proof is on you to prove that A Rank NP's are comparable to A+ Rank NP's, the higher Rank means a lot as A++ are far stronger than A+ NP's

Higher Rank = More Power

So you need to provide evidence as to why A Rank is the same level of power as A+ Rank

Hektor kills Herc 1 time with an A-Rank Np while a Buffed Caliburn can kill Herc 7 times over, As Rank A+. That's a comparison of power isn't it? Is that a 6x difference?

I have the scans if needed. not idea if this is usable though for anything though..

 

[Regidian]

Nuh uh, that's not how it works, the burden of proof is on you to prove that A Rank NP's are comparable to A+ Rank NP's, the higher Rank means a lot as A++ are far stronger than A+ NP's

Higher Rank = More Power

So you need to provide evidence as to why A Rank is the same level of power as A+ Rank

For the higher rank, is not really true in fgo (look at kama rank C, and kingprotea rank E that allow her to use her full power, Arn nova salomon D rank)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hektor kills Herc 1 time with an A-Rank Np while a Buffed Caliburn can kill Herc 7 times over. As Rank A+. That's a comparison of power isn't it? Is that a 6x difference?

I have the scans if needed. not idea if this is usable though for anything though..

Well killing Herc 1 time is still one-shotting Base Servant stats

Honestly I still think the best thing to do is to scale A+ Rank to Low 6-B and A Rank to 6-C+

Base stats would be 6-C because of Gawain

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't have tell she get hit by the full NP and She was not really crippled, as she was able to lift up in the vn she just need regen for being able to refight. And tanking 10% A+ rank is still big

Bellerophon is 2.8 teratons, so Saber Alter basically took 280 gigatons of AP and was severely injured from it. That's consistent with 6-C base Servants, and way more consistent than taking a full A+ Rank twice. Sure, it happened twice, but it's inconsistent with other feats of NPs nuking or severely wounding Servants, and even the established fact that NPs are basically special moves that are far above what a Servant can normally do.

 

[Mageman460]

I agree with 6-C servants via Gawain ... again.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Whatever. 6-C is better than Low 7-B so i'll settle for it.

 

[Regidian]

Bellerophon is 2.8 teratons, so Saber Alter basically took 280 gigatons of AP and was severely injured from it. That's consistent with 6-C base Servants, and way more consistent than taking a full A+ Rank twice. Sure, it happened twice, but it's inconsistent with other feats of NPs nuking or severely wounding Servants, and even the established fact that NPs are basically special moves that are far above what a Servant can normally do.

280 is High 6-C tho but i have no prob with this

The NP being special move in true for only a part of servant, the other part like king protea, vritra, ruler arturia, santa karna, buyan etc can do it with their own body, what we will do with them?

 

[CloverDragon03]

280 is High 6-C tho but i have no prob with this

My point for that was that she was severely injured by a 280 gigaton attack. That's consistent with the 6-C rating, as it's not uncommon in fiction to be severely wounded by attacks much stronger than you.

 

[Regidian]

Okay anyways, like i tell some servant will obligatory fully scale at least in physcial part to their NP as their do it physically or bevause NP= true form it should not be a prob no? (Kingprotea, buyan, santa karna, ruler arturia etc)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I made a Blog for the Paul Bunyun 6-C Calc, when it gets accepted, I’ll make one final CRT that will summarize the conclusions

 

[Regidian]

Okay

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sounds good, but then this would need to be closed before the conclusions CRT since no more than one CRT per verse.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

also if we used the "herc is 1/8th caliburn" thing that would be 400 gigatons dividing from crying warmonger