- 15,920
- 2,694
Ah yes, I completely remember every time Artoria punches with the power of Excalibur, completely not at all contradicted by anything, every single of her punches clearly scales to her absolute strongest attack.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
- Status
- 10,688
- 4,810
Paul debunked you better than I ever could.
- 15,920
- 2,694
You're seriously saying, with no amount of irony, that Artoria's punches scale to EXCALIBUR? Ok...
- 10,688
- 4,810
It's funny that I literally don't need to debunk this because even if she didn't, all the other examples of servants scaling make your points moot.
- 15,920
- 2,694
If you're claiming Servants scales to their NPs, then you definitely need to adress extremely blatant evidence to the contrary like Excalibur. Why is this NP suddenly a massive exception to the rule? Why is Artoria apparently the only Servant whose attacks aren't as strong as their NP? Why there even more cases when this is also clearly the case (Arash and many other "sword beam" users immediatly come to mind)?
- 11,750
- 16,166
Okay, so first of all, I think we should all calm down. This CRT has already stretched on for months at this point, with no end in sight, so I think fighting amongst ourselves is only going to make matters worse. Let's all try to be as productive as possible.
Now, I'm by no means an expert on the Fate series. I'm relatively new to everything, and I've primarily only dabbled in the anime series. I do love the series though, and so I'd like to make a few suggestions that may or may not help resolve the ongoing issue of whether or not Servants should physically scale to their NPs.
Like I said, I'm a relative noob when it comes to Fate, so if anything I say sounds stupid, just take it with a grain of salt XD.
With that being said, here are my suggestions.
Suggestion #1:
From my limited understanding, there seems to be an issue stemming from the fact that NPs are both meant to be a Servant's Ultimate attack/trump card, while simultaneously failing to erase other servants that are physically comparable to the NP's caster.
This sounds remarkably similar to Bijū bombs in Naruto. They're meant to be a Bijū's ultimate attack with the biggest AOE, but the Bijū/Jinchūriki have withstood them on occasion (Though not without some damage), and they can still manage to harm each other physically.
So my suggestion is, why don't we just have the servants downscale from these specific NPs they've tanked? The NP would still scale above, but not so much to where they would be able to vaporize a servant on contact.
So if a NP is 20 Gigatons for example, a servant would simply downscale from it, and that would be the end of it.
Suggestion #2:
I really don't like this one, but it is an option on the wiki for a reason. It does actually help in situations like this. We can simply utilize the "Likely/Possibly" ratings.
So the ratings would look something like this: At least Low 7-B, likely/possibly "whatever NP they would scale to"
This would essentially cover all the basis, and account for both sides of the argument. It's not perfect, but it gets the job done sometimes.
Suggestion #3:
Depending on the number of NPs that clearly scale above servants, we could simply consider those as exceptions. For example, if 8-9/10 NPs scale to physicals, but we have just one or two that break that rule, then I don't think it makes sense to work off of the exception in this case. It's a textbook example of an outlier after all, and should be treated accordingly.
Now I am nowhere near enough of an expert to verify this example, so it's something that you will all have to determine yourselves. But if only a handful of NPs don't scale to physicals, while dozens of others potentially do, then I feel like those exceptions should simply be their own thing tbh.
That's about it. I hope I didn't say anything too stupid lol, but those are pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I hope it brings us closer to finishing this seemingly never-ending CRT
.
Now, I'm by no means an expert on the Fate series. I'm relatively new to everything, and I've primarily only dabbled in the anime series. I do love the series though, and so I'd like to make a few suggestions that may or may not help resolve the ongoing issue of whether or not Servants should physically scale to their NPs.
Like I said, I'm a relative noob when it comes to Fate, so if anything I say sounds stupid, just take it with a grain of salt XD.
With that being said, here are my suggestions.
Suggestion #1:
From my limited understanding, there seems to be an issue stemming from the fact that NPs are both meant to be a Servant's Ultimate attack/trump card, while simultaneously failing to erase other servants that are physically comparable to the NP's caster.
This sounds remarkably similar to Bijū bombs in Naruto. They're meant to be a Bijū's ultimate attack with the biggest AOE, but the Bijū/Jinchūriki have withstood them on occasion (Though not without some damage), and they can still manage to harm each other physically.
So my suggestion is, why don't we just have the servants downscale from these specific NPs they've tanked? The NP would still scale above, but not so much to where they would be able to vaporize a servant on contact.
So if a NP is 20 Gigatons for example, a servant would simply downscale from it, and that would be the end of it.
Suggestion #2:
I really don't like this one, but it is an option on the wiki for a reason. It does actually help in situations like this. We can simply utilize the "Likely/Possibly" ratings.
So the ratings would look something like this: At least Low 7-B, likely/possibly "whatever NP they would scale to"
This would essentially cover all the basis, and account for both sides of the argument. It's not perfect, but it gets the job done sometimes.
Suggestion #3:
Depending on the number of NPs that clearly scale above servants, we could simply consider those as exceptions. For example, if 8-9/10 NPs scale to physicals, but we have just one or two that break that rule, then I don't think it makes sense to work off of the exception in this case. It's a textbook example of an outlier after all, and should be treated accordingly.
Now I am nowhere near enough of an expert to verify this example, so it's something that you will all have to determine yourselves. But if only a handful of NPs don't scale to physicals, while dozens of others potentially do, then I feel like those exceptions should simply be their own thing tbh.
That's about it. I hope I didn't say anything too stupid lol, but those are pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I hope it brings us closer to finishing this seemingly never-ending CRT
.
Last edited:
- 4,325
- 732
I mean ruler arturia have her knee using the same power than rhongo so...
We have vritra who her np his just her dragon form.
We have santa karna who is NP is just a combinaison of his punch atk.
People tell that they backscale from it not fully scale(even tho some fully scale)
Last edited:
- 2,336
- 1,442
The main positions seems to be:
Any arguments for the first position?
- Servants have no scaling with Noble Phantasms, and are 1,000,000 times to 1,000,000,000 times weaker than Noble Phantasms.
- Servants downscale to several times weaker than their Noble Phantasms.
Any arguments for the first position?
- 1,127
- 369
Paul debunked the canon? The power of VSB users is immeasurable.
- 1,127
- 369
Bijuus can throw Bijuu bombs in seconds, multiple of those in rapid succession, this is vastly different from NPs.
- 4,325
- 732
The cannon of what? That NP are 1 million time stronger when many servant are show to litteraly do the np normaly with their body or tank a part of it?
Depend of the NP, and their mana, if they have enough mana they can spam it, and some NP doesn't even need much mana, medea can use ruler breaker any time she want, saber shiki and assassin shiki can use their death eye every time she want etc
- 1,127
- 369
We have characters with X Tier, Y with "Insert whatever".
The discussion is obviously about AP related NPs, not hax or some weird stuff.
- 4,325
- 732
Cool, doesn't change that we have praticaly more feat if people surviving a NP (while he was weakened or not) that litteraly contradict the NP having this different in tier.
Even with AP relates stuff, the only problem to them spamming it is alredy tell to be the mana consumption of their NP and we have still some that can use it in a row. (Like sieg in apo), or some np that just their true form like vritra, or ibuki that her np is just swing her sword
- 58
- 31
Not sure if any of this is relevant, but in the Fate Grand Order Turas Realta manga there are some statements that may suggest Servants are somewhat comparable to their NPs (I have no idea how 'canon' this site considers the manga so feel free to ignore this).
In the manga, Siegfried still has his statement of Fafnir's attack being too much for Mash's Noble Phantasm to handle, Jeanne then shows up and starts to physically overpower Fafnir (2nd image should come last) and deflect the same attack that was stated stronger than Mash's NP. Later on, it is implied that Heracles' power is superior to that of Fafnir's (admittedly this one's a bit vague). Flauros then claims that the magical energy of Demon God Pillars are far greater than that of Fafnir, however Servants like Drake and Atalanta can still damage it with regular attacks.
In the manga, Siegfried still has his statement of Fafnir's attack being too much for Mash's Noble Phantasm to handle, Jeanne then shows up and starts to physically overpower Fafnir (2nd image should come last) and deflect the same attack that was stated stronger than Mash's NP. Later on, it is implied that Heracles' power is superior to that of Fafnir's (admittedly this one's a bit vague). Flauros then claims that the magical energy of Demon God Pillars are far greater than that of Fafnir, however Servants like Drake and Atalanta can still damage it with regular attacks.
- 2,336
- 1,442
It is also explicitly stated somewhere else that the breath of dragons is comparable to their physical attacks.
"...According to a certain rulebook, the breath's damage value is the same as their physical damage. That physical damage has long since surpassed humans, but when you think of it being spread equally among the members of an entire army, for a single dragon to destroy an entire country seems reasonable."
Not to mention that many Servants scale to dragons and their breath.
^This is merely one of many evidence mentioned that Servants somewhat scale to NP.
But I have yet to see evidence presented that Servants are a million to a billion times weaker than AP Noble Phantasms. Is someone aware of the existence of such evidence? If so then please present it.
"...According to a certain rulebook, the breath's damage value is the same as their physical damage. That physical damage has long since surpassed humans, but when you think of it being spread equally among the members of an entire army, for a single dragon to destroy an entire country seems reasonable."
Not to mention that many Servants scale to dragons and their breath.
^This is merely one of many evidence mentioned that Servants somewhat scale to NP.
But I have yet to see evidence presented that Servants are a million to a billion times weaker than AP Noble Phantasms. Is someone aware of the existence of such evidence? If so then please present it.
Last edited:
- 4,325
- 732
If these two are good enough (even more the one of heracles and jeanne) then all higher tier servant should scale to fafnir since fafnir breath feat is alredy accepted here
- 2,336
- 1,442
Copying list of relevant feats:
Ishtar nukes Uruk: 6-C (10.6 Gigatons)
Caladbolg destroys Laputa: High 6-C (216.2 Gigatons)
Crying Warmonger destroys meteor: Low 6-B (3.2 Teratons)
Gugalana destroys land: 6-B (41.8 Teratons)
Chicxulub Impact Event: At least High 6-B, likely High 6-A (At least 310 Teratons, likely 13.8 Petatons)
[Unevaluated] Gawain crater/valley feat from Last Encore 6-C (18 Gigatons)
[Uncalc'd] Fafnir being able to destroy the whole region of Orleans with his breath, and Siegfried being able to match him with his NP (he has an anti-dragon buff).
[Uncalc'd] Statement that the breath attacks of dragons = their physicals, and that a single dragon can destroy an entire country with their breath attack. Multiple Servants scale to dragons and their breath. "...According to a certain rulebook, the breath's damage value is the same as their physical damage. That physical damage has long since surpassed humans, but when you think of it being spread equally among the members of an entire army, for a single dragon to destroy an entire country seems reasonable."
[Uncalc'd] Statement that Cu Alter's Gae Bolg strikes with enough power to destroy the world. The singularity they are in represents North America, and it is consistent with Tesla's statement that he can destroy the entire continent if he goes all-out with his NP.
[Uncalc'd] Physicals attacks of Crying Warmonger Spartacus while fighting Jeanne created an earthquake in the Hanging Garden, which is kilometers away in the sky. Reaches Tier 6 with radiated wave calc.
[Uncalc'd] Ig-Alima Can easily slice through a thousand mountain; probably High 7-A if we lowball. "A long and unrefined gigantic sword that can cut even through a thousand mountains. It cuts not with a blade alone. It breaks up not with mass alone. This sword made by a god comprehends the concept of “skyline.” That is the very same principle through which heaven and earth are absolutely separated, and as a result of the principle itself leaking out into the brandishing of the sword, this gigantic sword easily severs a thousand mountains."
[Uncalc'd] Sul-sagana can vaporize a myriad of seas; easy Tier 6. "A Divine Construct that burns down even a myriad of seas,"
[Uncalc'd] Ibuki-douji blows away eight valleys and peaks to create eight large rivers with the slightest glitter of her A+ sword's power.
Ishtar nukes Uruk: 6-C (10.6 Gigatons)
Caladbolg destroys Laputa: High 6-C (216.2 Gigatons)
Crying Warmonger destroys meteor: Low 6-B (3.2 Teratons)
Gugalana destroys land: 6-B (41.8 Teratons)
Chicxulub Impact Event: At least High 6-B, likely High 6-A (At least 310 Teratons, likely 13.8 Petatons)
[Unevaluated] Gawain crater/valley feat from Last Encore 6-C (18 Gigatons)
[Uncalc'd] Fafnir being able to destroy the whole region of Orleans with his breath, and Siegfried being able to match him with his NP (he has an anti-dragon buff).
[Uncalc'd] Statement that the breath attacks of dragons = their physicals, and that a single dragon can destroy an entire country with their breath attack. Multiple Servants scale to dragons and their breath. "...According to a certain rulebook, the breath's damage value is the same as their physical damage. That physical damage has long since surpassed humans, but when you think of it being spread equally among the members of an entire army, for a single dragon to destroy an entire country seems reasonable."
[Uncalc'd] Statement that Cu Alter's Gae Bolg strikes with enough power to destroy the world. The singularity they are in represents North America, and it is consistent with Tesla's statement that he can destroy the entire continent if he goes all-out with his NP.
[Uncalc'd] Physicals attacks of Crying Warmonger Spartacus while fighting Jeanne created an earthquake in the Hanging Garden, which is kilometers away in the sky. Reaches Tier 6 with radiated wave calc.
[Uncalc'd] Ig-Alima Can easily slice through a thousand mountain; probably High 7-A if we lowball. "A long and unrefined gigantic sword that can cut even through a thousand mountains. It cuts not with a blade alone. It breaks up not with mass alone. This sword made by a god comprehends the concept of “skyline.” That is the very same principle through which heaven and earth are absolutely separated, and as a result of the principle itself leaking out into the brandishing of the sword, this gigantic sword easily severs a thousand mountains."
[Uncalc'd] Sul-sagana can vaporize a myriad of seas; easy Tier 6. "A Divine Construct that burns down even a myriad of seas,"
[Uncalc'd] Ibuki-douji blows away eight valleys and peaks to create eight large rivers with the slightest glitter of her A+ sword's power.
- 4,325
- 732
Fafnir have alredy his 6-A key for being able to destroy country with his breath
Anyways other than, we have rhongo killing Vortigen, gawain being able to trap the hand of Vortigen, and fight him for many hours, same for arturia with excalibur
- 2,336
- 1,442
Yep, that is all it takes, though we have plenty of supporting evidence as well.
- 689
- 438
There is an issue with scaling to living servant feats. Some servants are just flat out weaker as servants then when they were alive, such as Gil and Heracles. Scaling NPs should be fine though I think. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
- 58
- 31
Since you can never have too many calcs for a series, I did some rough calcs myself as I was bored.
Diameter = 660km
Radius = 330km = 330,000
W = R^3 * ((27136*P+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = (330000)^3 * ((27136*1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = 2.8882005e+12 tons of TNT, which is Low 6-B, Small Country level
Volume = 3378 km^3
Density of seawater = 1.0273e+12 kg/km^3
Mass = 1.0273e+12 * 3378
Mass = 3.4702194e+15 kg
Latent heat of vaporization of water = 2264705 J/kg
3.4702194e+15 * 2264705 = 7.859023226e+21 Joules
The statement specifies a "myriad" of seas. The classical definition of a "myriad" is a unit of 10,000, but last time I checked there weren't that many seas in the world, so I'll use a low ball of a dozen (open to better estimations)
7.859023226e+21 * 12 = 9.430827872e+22 Joules = 6-B, Country level (possibly far higher depending on how many a "myriad" refers to)
I think it is pretty safe to say that Noble Phantasm's are consistently Tier 6 in power.
As shown on the map for the Orleans singularity, the "Orleans region" covers the distance between Paris and Marseille, which according to this website is about 660 km.
Diameter = 660km
Radius = 330km = 330,000
W = R^3 * ((27136*P+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = (330000)^3 * ((27136*1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = 2.8882005e+12 tons of TNT, which is Low 6-B, Small Country level
The smallest sea in the world (that I could find) is the Sea of Marmara, which apparently has a water volume of 3,378 km^3
Volume = 3378 km^3
Density of seawater = 1.0273e+12 kg/km^3
Mass = 1.0273e+12 * 3378
Mass = 3.4702194e+15 kg
Latent heat of vaporization of water = 2264705 J/kg
3.4702194e+15 * 2264705 = 7.859023226e+21 Joules
The statement specifies a "myriad" of seas. The classical definition of a "myriad" is a unit of 10,000, but last time I checked there weren't that many seas in the world, so I'll use a low ball of a dozen (open to better estimations)
7.859023226e+21 * 12 = 9.430827872e+22 Joules = 6-B, Country level (possibly far higher depending on how many a "myriad" refers to)
I think it is pretty safe to say that Noble Phantasm's are consistently Tier 6 in power.
- 4,325
- 732
We have too the feat of salter vaporizing Bennu that was previously calced as 6-B if i tell right
I forgot we have this feat that could be tier 6 too + all the other feat that already accepted as 6-A for servant
Last edited:
- 6,452
- 1,667
Did you put those in a blog to be evaluated?
- 2,336
- 1,442
Bennu is Large Mountain level based on impact force, and Mountain level based on vaporization of mass.
Good catch with the Paul Bunyan calcs.
So the basin area of the Mississippi is 2980000 km^2, or 2.98E+16 cm^2.
From Google-fu, the average depth of the river is between 2.7-3.7 m, with some parts being 18 m deep. So lets go with 3.2 m.
This makes the volume: 2.98E+16 x 320 = 9.536E+18 cm^3
With pulverization of soil (0.7 J/cc), that would be: 9.536E+18 x 0.7 = 6.6752E+18 J [High 7-A]
Which is much more reasonable, though not Tier 6.
Shattering the mountain range part is much more interesting.
So the volume of the smallest mountain (height of 609.6 m) is used as an average in the calc. But this is unreasonable, because the Rocky Mountains is full of large mountains. It has at least a hundred mountains whose height range from 4400 m to 3740 m.
en.wikipedia.org
If we use the calculated fragmentation value of Mount Fuji (height of 3776 m), 3.345E18 Joules, and multiply it by a hundred then we get 3.345E+20 [6-C+]
If we interrupt the word "shatter" as violent fragmentation, then the value would be 2.885E19 J, and multiplied by a hundred it would be 2.885E+21 [High 6-C+]
As a bonus, here is a Hanging Garden earthquake calc:
The Radiated Wave calc is pretty simple; it just needs the distance the shockwave travels and its displayed magnitude at that distance.
Based on a Doom calc by Firestorm808 and approved by DarkDragonMedeus:
Modified to use 3000, 5000, 7000 m, due to the Hanging Garden being several kilometers away.
(Joules of Magnitude Radiated Waves)(4*PI)((Radius in Meters)^2)) = Total Omnidirectional Energy
With the earthquake being described as violent trembling:
Good catch with the Paul Bunyan calcs.
So the basin area of the Mississippi is 2980000 km^2, or 2.98E+16 cm^2.
From Google-fu, the average depth of the river is between 2.7-3.7 m, with some parts being 18 m deep. So lets go with 3.2 m.
This makes the volume: 2.98E+16 x 320 = 9.536E+18 cm^3
With pulverization of soil (0.7 J/cc), that would be: 9.536E+18 x 0.7 = 6.6752E+18 J [High 7-A]
Which is much more reasonable, though not Tier 6.
Shattering the mountain range part is much more interesting.
So the volume of the smallest mountain (height of 609.6 m) is used as an average in the calc. But this is unreasonable, because the Rocky Mountains is full of large mountains. It has at least a hundred mountains whose height range from 4400 m to 3740 m.
List of mountain peaks of the Rocky Mountains - Wikipedia
If we use the calculated fragmentation value of Mount Fuji (height of 3776 m), 3.345E18 Joules, and multiply it by a hundred then we get 3.345E+20 [6-C+]
If we interrupt the word "shatter" as violent fragmentation, then the value would be 2.885E19 J, and multiplied by a hundred it would be 2.885E+21 [High 6-C+]
As a bonus, here is a Hanging Garden earthquake calc:
The Radiated Wave calc is pretty simple; it just needs the distance the shockwave travels and its displayed magnitude at that distance.
Based on a Doom calc by Firestorm808 and approved by DarkDragonMedeus:
Modified to use 3000, 5000, 7000 m, due to the Hanging Garden being several kilometers away.
(Joules of Magnitude Radiated Waves)(4*PI)((Radius in Meters)^2)) = Total Omnidirectional Energy
| Omnidirectional | Magnitude 5 | Magnitude 6 |
| Radius (m) | 2.00E+12 | 6.31E+13 |
| 3000 | 2.26E+20 [6-C+] | 7.14E+21 [Low 6-B] |
| 5000 | 6.28E+20 [High 6-C] | 1.98E+22 [Low 6-B+] |
| 7000 | 1.23E+21 [High 6-C] | 3.89E+22 [6-B] |
| Hemisphere | Magnitude 5 | Magnitude 6 |
| Radius (m) | 2.00E+12 | 6.31E+13 |
| 3000 | 1.13e+20 [6-C] | 3.57E+21 [High 6-C+] |
| 5000 | 3.14e+20 [6-C+] | 9.90E+21 [Low 6-B] |
| 7000 | 6.15e+20 [High 6-C] | 1.945e+22 [Low 6-B+] |
With the earthquake being described as violent trembling:
- 6,452
- 1,667
Where does the distance come from for the earthquake calc?
- 2,336
- 1,442
Statement that the Hanging Garden is several kilometers away, and adaptions depict it at a distance at cloud level.
- 4,325
- 732
For the Bennu one why this one is so different in calc lol (i don't know anything about calc)
vsbattles.fandom.com
Evil-man's Dynamic of A Meteor!!!
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 4,325
- 732
I mean for arturia she still alive as a servant so her garden of avalon feat should still count for here
- 689
- 438
I'm more referring to Gawain fighting Vortigern. But even still, the Vortigern fight was before Artoria was in Avalon.
Artoria is still a servant though isn't she? Same as EMIYA also getting the servant treatment when summoned, Artoria is treated as a servant. Because if Artoria scales to Vortigern and Vortigern is a Top Tier Dragon, then suddenly all servants would be Tier 6-A (according to Fafnir and Jalter's current ratings).
- 6,452
- 1,667
do you have the scans or know the rough location of them in the novel? I can get the cloud distance level from the adapation.
- 10,688
- 4,810
- 4,325
- 732
Being treated as servant doesn't change that she is still the living one, only arturia Np scale to it not arturia herself (like how arturia lancer alredy scale to it)
I mean technically many servant could scale above fafnir as we have a thing if demon god pillar>fafnir (and technically salter have fight fp jalter in her interlude)
- 6,452
- 1,667
Demon God Pillars can stop the Earths rotation which is moon level. I don't remember full context of the scene though. been a while since i got on F/Go
- 4,325
- 732
I have the scene but people tell me that not litteral
- 6,452
- 1,667
Whats their reasoning on it not being literal? thats the first time im hearing about that.
- 689
- 438
I don't think there's an issue of having the NP scale to living feats (outside of like Ea) because of how they work. But servants shouldn't scale to living feats as aren't servant bodies basically just containers? Which is why people like Shakespeare can still be vastly stronger than peak humans despite just being humans in life.
- Status
Similar threads
