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Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued

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I dont think this thread ever decided which calc to scale to, as people kept trying to bring other stuff to get calced

As I said before, the Ishtar or Caladbolg thing are likely the best options to scale to for NPs. The two lower ones are just kinda meh. One being the side effect of a weakened version of an NP. The Caladbolg one is arguably better for scaling than the Ishtar one in my opinion but eh

As for scaling from this point its pretty simple, you just scale it to the other NPs, and vaguely and unquantifiably downscale for lower rank ones if you're absolutely dead set on scaling by ranks, since there isn't some massive power difference always shown between them to warrant them scaling to different calcs.

This then brings the issue of servant stats. To be frank, servants can not be low 7-B, 7-B, anything like that if any calc besides the CBA one is picked. NPs do not instantly delete all servants they near, they are strong, yes, they don't annihilate everyone in the war the instant they're used, as a difference in strength of these levels would imply. In fact, we have more than one example of servants surviving noble phantasms. Heracles of course with Caladbolg or whatever else like Excaliblasts or whatever, Nero face tanking Excalibur Galatine twice, Rider surviving after Via Expugnio failed to stop Excalibur, etc.
 
Paul_Frank said:
I dont think this thread ever decided which calc to scale to, as people kept trying to bring other stuff to get calced

As I said before, the Ishtar or Caladbolg thing are likely the best options to scale to for NPs. The two lower ones are just kinda meh. One being the side effect of a weakened version of an NP. The Caladbolg one is arguably better for scaling than the Ishtar one in my opinion but eh

As for scaling from this point its pretty simple, you just scale it to the other NPs, and vaguely and unquantifiably downscale for lower rank ones if you're absolutely dead set on scaling by ranks, since there isn't some massive power difference always shown between them to warrant them scaling to different calcs.

This then brings the issue of servant stats. To be frank, servants can not be low 7-B, 7-B, anything like that if any calc besides the CBA one is picked. NPs do not instantly delete all servants they near, they are strong, yes, they don't annihilate everyone in the war the instant they're used, as a difference in strength of these levels would imply. In fact, we have more than one example of servants surviving noble phantasms. Heracles of course with Caladbolg or whatever else like Excaliblasts or whatever, Nero face tanking Excalibur Galatine twice, Rider surviving after Via Expugnio failed to stop Excalibur, etc.
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Tier 6 Base Stats is a no, there is no evidence and no feats that show Servants having Base Stats above Low 7-B, if someone were to show a feat above that which Base Stats can scale to, then that would be fine, but scaling Servants to NP’s isn’t a good idea IMO
 
See but that's the thing, it both doesn't work by showings or narrative wise to have Noble Phantasms apparently be capable of vaporizing any servant in a single hit

Examples like the ones I listed above show this, such as Nero literally being hit head on with an NP twice. In general besides this, NPs are called trump cards, and considered strong yes, they however for the most part aren't considered instant victories because they delete whoever they touch

The entire logic behind them not scaling is "oh well NPs are supposed to be strong and considered trump cards" this doesn't mean "servants are several orders of magnitude weaker than NPs and would be instantly annihilated if one was ever used"
 
Well, even then, I see no reason as to backscale the Servants Base Stats when they have zero feats even remotely close to that level, I refuse to give Servants a Tier 6 rating for their Base Stats because they don’t always get obliterated by a NP
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Well, even then, I see no reason as to backscale the Servants Base Stats when they have zero feats even remotely close to that level, I refuse to give Servants a Tier 6 rating for their Base Stats because they don’t always get obliterated by a NP
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Instructions unclear, gave servants tier 5 rating instead
 
So surviving NPs isn't a feat? Your argument is basically, "servants don't have a calc of smacking with this force, so them being able to tank this force and then hurt eachother doesn't count."

I'm not sure I need to point out how little sense this makes. This is entirely disregarding blatant feats because of a preconceived notion of servants being unable to be tier 6 due to not having a calc for physical hits of that level.

This isn't even taking into account the fact that mana is technically a universal power source for them anyway, as the same mana that powers their NPs is the same mana that powers them and let's them punch
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Tier 6 Base Stats is a no, there is no evidence and no feats that show Servants having Base Stats above Low 7-B, if someone were to show a feat above that which Base Stats can scale to, then that would be fine, but scaling Servants to NP’s isn’t a good idea IMO
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Mentioned in the other thread; Servants fighting Warmonger Spartacus and blocking his physical attacks, which creates earthquakes kilometers away, is Tier 6.
The main story scales Servants to NPs though; a full-powered Excallibur has enough firepower to kill Berserker 7 times (Overcharged Caliburn stated to be equal to Excalibur, and Salter's Excalibur Morigan failing to take all of Berserk's lives). Gawain found King Hassan casually blocking his x3 amped slash to be enough evidence to acknowledge he has no chance to beat him, which would not make sense if he had an attack that is hundreds or thousands of times stronger than his slash. These are among various other indications that Servants are not thousands of times weaker than NPs.
 
Some(not all) servant that have physical NP should obviously scale like santa karna, is NP is just a techniques of punch he use, or arturia ruler who in first acsension use her kneel as NP, how you want them to not scale to their base stat?
 
Paul_Frank said:
So surviving NPs isn't a feat? Your argument is basically, "servants don't have a calc of smacking with this force, so them being able to tank this force and then hurt eachother doesn't count."

I'm not sure I need to point out how little sense this makes. This is entirely disregarding blatant feats because of a preconceived notion of servants being unable to be tier 6 due to not having a calc for physical hits of that level.

This isn't even taking into account the fact that mana is technically a universal power source for them anyway, as the same mana that powers their NPs is the same mana that powers them and let's them punch
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Because the Base Stats scale to everyone, Shirou with Kanshou and Bakuya, who is confirmed slightly weaker than Archer Emiya, who has D Rank Strength can match and clash with Saber Alter, that makes every servants Physicals except a few scale to each other, meaning your suggestion would be scaling Archer’s physcials to Caladbolg’s High 6-C feat, which I don’t agree with, the gap of strength in feats between the Base Stats and Noble Phantasms is huge, some Servants surviving a NP isn’t convincing enough to me to make every single servant High 6-C for Base Stats
 
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DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Because the Base Stats scale to everyone, Shirou with Kanshou and Bakuya, who is confirmed slightly weaker than Archer Emiya, who has D Rank Strength can match and clash with Saber Alter, that makes every servants Physicals except a few scale to each other, meaning your suggestion would be scaling Archer’s physcials to Caladbolg’s High 6-C feat, which I don’t agree with, the gap of strength in feats between the Base Stats and Noble Phantasms is huge, some Servants surviving a NP isn’t convincing enough to me to make every single servant High 6-C for Base Stats
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Once again the argument here is "I haven't seen high 6-C punching feats from servants" essentially, let me explain why this does not matter, even ignoring the above stuff people brought up about some NPs literally being physical hits done with the body, and ignoring the fact that some NPs are done with actual sword hits meaning the servant has to take the recoil of the hit anyway.

You bring up Shirou with K&B scaling, I ask why exactly this matters? He scales to servant tier regardless of what that is, because, by feats and statements, he is able to fight them. Shirou doesn't have physically tier 7 or whatever feats by swinging K&B now does he, but we still accept that because it's visible that it scales.

Yes, every servant's physicsls, bar the obvious exceptions, would scale to eachother, because they do that even now, this is another thing I don't understand the reason to bring up.

The real argument of yours here is "the gap between the feats of base stats and Noble Phantasms is huge". So your position is essentially "let's disregard these narrative points which show that servants are still relative to their NPs, and disregard blatant showings that they are in fact relative, and say they are thousands of times weaker because I have not seen a high 6-C base stats calc". Again, this position makes 0 sense to maintain.

A servant being that tier doesn't mean they necessarily have to have calcs of like, splitting islands with swings, the reason being that AP and Durability simply don't work like that, you don't need to have a calc on a certain level if you have consistent scaling to a higher level, and a basis in the actual story to scale to that level.

Not every tier 2 on this wiki has a physically tier 2 feat for instance, they just scale to people who do, or attacks that do, this is the same logic here.

With the scaling how you'd want it, there are several things that wouldn't make sense

Sun Boosted Gawain instantly deciding Hassan is too strong since he blocked a physical swing, when, if they were completely dwarfed in strength by their NPs, Gawain would have realized "oh hey, I have an attack literally thousands of times stronger, let me try that first". Nero just tanking Excalibur Galatine. Excalibur and Caliburn not instantly deleting all of Herc's lives, when a difference in power can take off more than one at once, meaning a difference of thousands of times would easily tear through all 12 lives. Everything involing Warmonger Spartacus, etc.

What I'm saying is the entire premise of your argument is fundamentally flawed, as it assumes that in order to scale to something, even if the narrative and showings are consistent, you need your own feats on that level outside of scaling. This is sadly not how the wiki operates though, so there is actually 0 reason to say servants can't scale outside of a personal dislike of it.
 
Ok, so you think we should just scale everyone's physicals to High 6-C because of this one feat

Cause I still don't agree to that at all, and yeah I get the AOE Fallacy, but the point is that Fate is fricking huge and when dealing with such a huge verse with plenty of lore, you can't just accept one high feat as the singular scaling of all Base Stats and NP's, you need consistency, and once again, we haven't seen any Base Stat feats remotely close to Tier 6, we are told that there is a distinct difference between a Servant's Base Stats and their NP's, they are meant to be the ultimate attack of a servant and lore wise are meant to be above the standard attacks of a servant

You bring of cases of Servants Base Stats showing feats of matching or being not that far behind a Noble Phantasm and I'd just say it's an outlier, Fate is huge, of course you're going to get inconsistencies and PIS across the entire verse when literally everything is canon
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Ok, so you think we should just scale everyone's physicals to High 6-C because of this one feat

Cause I still don't agree to that at all, and yeah I get the AOE Fallacy, but the point is that Fate is fricking huge and when dealing with such a huge verse with plenty of lore, you can't just accept one high feat as the singular scaling of all Base Stats and NP's, you need consistency, and once again, we haven't seen any Base Stat feats remotely close to Tier 6, we are told that there is a distinct difference between a Servant's Base Stats and their NP's, they are meant to be the ultimate attack of a servant and lore wise are meant to be above the standard attacks of a servant

You bring of cases of Servants Base Stats showing feats of matching or being not that far behind a Noble Phantasm and I'd just say it's an outlier, Fate is huge, of course you're going to get inconsistencies and PIS across the entire verse when literally everything is canon
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It's not just one feat kek, it's more than one feat and narrative point that I've brought up, and this isn't even all the examples.

"we are told that there is a distinct difference between a Servant's Base Stats and their NP's, they are meant to be the ultimate attack of a servant and lore wise are meant to be above the standard attacks of a servant"

Yes, we are told that a Noble Phantasm is supposed to be the trump card of a servant, but this does not at all mean that we should jump to the conclusion of "any noble phantasm is an instant victory in a fight". You can argue that servant's base stats shouldn't be equal to NPs, and I agree 100%, they should be relative however, as showings point to this.

You say Fate is a huge series with a ton of lore, which is correct, but I ask, pray tell, how consistent are Noble Phantasms instantly vaporizing every servant, like this power level difference would imply? How consistent is is that when someone activates a Noble Phantasm like Crying Warmonger, the fight is instantly over and no one is able to contest them and they all die instantly, which is what what this difference in stats would imply. I'll tell you, from my experience, playing and reading almost every Nasu work, that is something that very rarely happens, as opposed to things which would imply that servants aren't that massively beneath their NPs.

If you'd truely argue that every example of them surviving NPs, or statements pointing to to fact that they should be relative to NPs are outliers, there's really nothing else to say here, as that's blatantly incorrect, since from the examples I can think of, there are not as many examples that imply a 1000x difference in strength between servants and their attacks, and without there being more statements and examples to imply that sheer gap of power, you can't argue the showings of them being relative are outliers. The only way this can even be an argument is if you blatantly disregard any feats which show them to be relative to NPs, and maintain the position of "they don't have a calc on that scale for normal hits".
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not sure what's going on here anymore.
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It's currently turned into arguing over whether or not servants should be rated as multiple tiers weaker than their NPs like this would imply, despite showings that they are not that weak compared to them
 
I don't think all NP should obviously scale to the base stat but at last let the one that are done physically to be like the one i have mention, we have even some NP who are just let the servant regain their real form (vritra for her dragon form, dioscuri for he divine spirit form etc) we have even some NP that are not even their strongest atk but just their most know etc or that their NP is not even a thing with AP (the magic of medea is more powerful than rule breaker in term of AP by ex)

It's why i don't understand why you guy just try to generalize all NP when it's should no be done like that
 
so uuhh.. been a while for this thread

What are examples of people surviving NPs without use of Command seals?
 
I obviously agree with Mitch. Tier 6 Base Servants is a massive no, Noble Phantasms are ALWAYS stronger than Servants, some of them which we calced at below Tier 6 being downright able to vaporize, so putting their regular attacks as the same level as the attacks that are consistently shown as stronger than anything they can pull out without them is completely ridiculous, let alone putting them at Tier 6.
 
Ionliosite said:
Noble Phantasms are ALWAYS stronger than Servants.
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The thing is, as I've pointed out, they are not consistently massively stronger to the point where servants aren't even relative, as I've given examples of both visual and narrative things which show they aren't that far below them, and this is again, while disregarding NPs which are physical hits, or would require the user to take the recoil from the attack via equal-opposite reactions. So even without using those, we still have examples which disprove this claim.

To say this another way, a Noble Phantasm is the trump card of a heroic spirit, but I'd like you to show me how often one is used and it instantly delete a servant. The one example I know is going to be brought up is Caster's monster, which, I'll grant you, that's a pretty good example, Excalibur's light touched its atoms and the entire monster was blown away after repeated attacks otherwise proved ineffective.

There's a few problems with using this to argue servants aren't relative. For one, Caster's monster was very much being hurt by the other servants, the issue was the speed it healed at, and it's size, Excalibur was used specifically because it had a large enough aoe to hit the whole thing and overpower its healing.

So Excalibur being used here and one shotting the monster isn't as impressive when you realize that it was almost exclusively being of its range.

But even granting you this one as an example I'd like to see what other examples you can scrounge up that prove servants are thousands of times weaker than their NPs, because I've shown more than one that proves otherwise, and those are by no means the only ones on the franchise.
 
Gotta agree with Paul, most examples of a Noble Phantasm seem to be within the levels a combat ready servant can reach. It’s one thing if someone like Gilles is weaker than his NP, but the fact of the matter is people can often create NP level attacks with just skills (see Baritsu and Runes)
 
For the NP are always more stronger than servant it not true for all type of NP when some of them are litteraly the servant itself or just technique they use habitualy. And even by using the only feat as far i remember that have who have vaporise ennemy (who is feat done by Excalibur) i don't see how this will discard all the other that show that the difference between servant and NP are not that big, some of them can even not kill completely servant when touched by it.

Except if you tell that kingprotea is stronger than kingprotea, that vritra is stronger than vritra, that the punch of santa karna are stronger than santa karna or if you tell that by ex knight of owner is more strong than servant, and invisible air too you should not tell that all NP are always stronger than servant.

But well if you want to go with NP are ALWAYS stronger than servant then we can make all NP 2-A since they will be stronger than the 2-A servant
 
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So what we do here ? I personally think we can't let np being just low 7-B/7-B when many of them have show higher feat
 
Paul_Frank said:
The thing is, as I've pointed out, they are not consistently massively stronger to the point where servants aren't even relative, as I've given examples of both visual and narrative things which show they aren't that far below them, and this is again, while disregarding NPs which are physical hits, or would require the user to take the recoil from the attack via equal-opposite reactions. So even without using those, we still have examples which disprove this claim.

To say this another way, a Noble Phantasm is the trump card of a heroic spirit, but I'd like you to show me how often one is used and it instantly delete a servant. The one example I know is going to be brought up is Caster's monster, which, I'll grant you, that's a pretty good example, Excalibur's light touched its atoms and the entire monster was blown away after repeated attacks otherwise proved ineffective.

There's a few problems with using this to argue servants aren't relative. For one, Caster's monster was very much being hurt by the other servants, the issue was the speed it healed at, and it's size, Excalibur was used specifically because it had a large enough aoe to hit the whole thing and overpower its healing.

So Excalibur being used here and one shotting the monster isn't as impressive when you realize that it was almost exclusively being of its range.

But even granting you this one as an example I'd like to see what other examples you can scrounge up that prove servants are thousands of times weaker than their NPs, because I've shown more than one that proves otherwise, and those are by no means the only ones on the franchise.
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+ This
 
I think the best thing to do is to make. New thread with a proper summary and proper display of arguments from
Both sides
 
There is way too much info and scaling to find the right tierings for any of this series

So I can't really do anything, I don't do Fate Grand Order and yet there is a shit ton of feats from it, so yeah....
 
Just wondering, are we using the statement that "C rank NP are equal to A/A+ strength"?
 
Did we ever come to a conclusion about whether Altera destroying Rome was talking about the the capitol or the whole physical empire?
 
^
To be honest, the hype was mostly based on an early Japanese -> Korean -> English mistranslation.

Though Teardrop Photon Ray can scale to indirectly one-shotting Spartacus who vaporized a section of the Great Wall, and scale to Berserker Cu's Gae Bolg which is stated to possess enough power to destroy the world since Scathach considered Attila a threat. It can also scale to Fafnir's feat of being able to destroy the whole Orleans region with his Breath, which is supported by the statement that dragons can destroy countries.
 
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Bumping this with the reminder that it's absolutely ridiculous to not scale servants to NPs for reasons that have been well established already
 
I concur, and it would be even more ridiculous with Tier 6 NPs. After some feats are calc'd, I believe we will move into newer and more engaging discussions to decide the tiers.
 
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