Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[LehenDuo]

sure, the manga and anime made with assistance from typemoon themselves are non-canon.

That's the joke, even Typemoon canon isn't canon. /s but not really
jokes are the only canon

 

[HyperZero95]

This ultimately is never talked in verse, and doesn't really matters.
What matters is that for 1 to be 1, 1 has to be defined as something and has to be different from 2. That is the limit that exist, ultimately, the limit that allows 1 =/= 2 to be true.
And that is why they say that only " " is boundless and singular/one - because infinity is boundless, but not singular, and depends on the "plurality" to be defined as infinity.

You're basically saying Akasha is what allows things to be separated, which allows things like one to be distinct from each other, right? You didn't explain yourself well, but that's what you're getting at, right?

That's not what this text says, but it wouldn't even hurt my argument in the first place. So what was the point of this? The fact it says she found the "non-existent limit" is referring to the abstract that upholds it, since the abstract is non-existent from a physical standpoint.

Literally headcannon on the inner workings of the spell.

That's not a reply to what I said. In order for space to even exist, it needs to be sourced from finite things first, with said finite things stemming from the Root and thus having flaws that traces back to it. This is explicitly stated multiple times:

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

As long as something has threads that permits its existence, Ryougi can kill it. Said threads are connected to the primordial source. MEoDP is literally the power of Akasha to end all things that flowed out from it and return them to its unity.

Bro... WHAT? Let's just compeltely ignore the entire lore on channels, noble colors and etc and create a headcanon "she did it mentally"...

....Abstract concepts are not found anywhere in space and can only be accessed mentally. TM is consistent about this, with Ryougi accessing Akasha while her physical body was in her hospital bed, or Aoko accessing it while standing in front of Touko the whole time. Or Tohno being unable to see any Death Lines on Wallachia, who is an abstract phenomena, (which he cannot comprehend the death of yet at the time) because "he didn't exist", aka he wasn't physical. So yes, Ryougi had to imagine the abstract and then erase it with MEoDP. You are basically saying that you can touch and cut the law of gravity, how the hell does that work?

And again - the limits are not necessarily abstract. AGAIN, for the third time - SURFACE OF SPHERE. It is BOUNDLESS, but has REAL LIMITS as far as the space it encompass/occupies, etc. Considering the fact Mobius Strips are cited in the KNK work (and Klein Bottles, as Kelin Coffins/Boxes), it's natural to assume this. The space itself was embedded inside the Reality Marble of Araya in some way, for example, which is FINITE.

"Non-existent limit". Which is referring to the abstract, since it is non-existent from a physical perspective. This line would make no sense with your interpretation. Klein Bottles have a real physical end to them. So Touko calling it abstract, the novel calling it a non-existent limit, and Touko distinguishing it from a physical prison contradicts your interpretation.

Not only you are not contributing to the discussion, but you are fundamentally unable to grasp the point.

 

[LehenDuo]

....Abstract concepts are not found anywhere in space and can only be accessed mentally. TM is consistent about this, with Ryougi accessing Akasha while her physical body was in her hospital bed, or Aoko accessing it while standing in front of Touko the whole time. Or Tohno being unable to see any Death Lines on Wallachia, who is an abstract phenomena, (which he cannot comprehend the death of yet at the time) because "he didn't exist", aka he wasn't physical. So yes, Ryougi had to imagine the abstract and then erase it with MEoDP. You are basically saying that you can touch and cut the law of gravity, how the hell does that work?


"Non-existent limit". Which is referring to the abstract, since it is non-existent from a physical perspective. This line would make no sense with your interpretation. Klein Bottles have a real physical end to them. So Touko calling it abstract, the novel calling it a non-existent limit, and Touko distinguishing it from a physical prison contradicts your interpretation.

The same scene which calls it "non-existing, abstract limits" also says:

"An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things."

You are just repeating the word that fits within your fiction in this case.
1) The entire exposition of the scene is about how these limits OUGHT TO EXIST for the infinite space to EVEN BE INFINITE.
2) "enclosed, inifnite space"... See what it's written there? ENCLOSED - Enclosed in what? The limits of the "space" so defined - what exactly they are don't matter, but they objectively exist and the infinite space is IN THEM EMBEDDED. Not only these limits exist, they are re-affirmed.

The thing Shiki "acessed" was her own interior, re-read the novel, please - the fact that Akasha exists outside of the World means that even physically doesn't "mean" anything there, as it is a thing defined by Textures... The whole thing was about how she was forced to "gaze upon her own interior" or something like that, in a manner similar to Void, or something of that sense. Akasha can't even be a purely physical place from the start.

( Spiritual Tomb and how it exists "tangent" to Age of Man Texture and other things shows this - "locality" makes no sense in such space, that is, outside of Age of Man Texture space or a Texture similar to it. )

Wallachia isn't abstract - as you said, he's a phenomen. Had Tohno looked at natural phenomena, the result would be the same, Phenomena aren't "true things", but merely resultants, there are paragraphs trying to explain how Nasuverse diferentiates them, and has nothing to do with this case. ( And presentation seem of Wallachia is very much physical. There is no Wallachia itself, and that is the problem that is the whole "phenomena" thing - There is no THE "Thunder" for "Thunder" to be killed yada yada )

And I'm not saying anything of that. You are merely failing at understand the concept being talked.

Not only you are not contributing to the discussion, but you are fundamentally unable to grasp the point.

Read that for yourself, please.

 

[HyperZero95]

huh? a persons existence is etched onto their soul, as f/sn says.

I don't care what SN stays. I care about what KnK said. You ignored the Epilogue quotes I sent you. Void said that Ryougi's soul and its pattern is shaped by her Origin. Void is the personality of the Origin. But since the personality of the Origin is contained within the body and distinct from the personality stemmed from the mind and the brain, it's treated as the personality of the body. Hell, the Fate/Extra shit you cited proves my point:

In the past, in the medical community, it was thought that the body = life, and the body was an output device needed to power the soul. Without a living body, a soul could not be generated.
However, in the magus community the opposite was thought to be true. The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.

The soul is contained in the body, and it requires it to exist in the material world. Hence the soul is the personality of both the body and the Origin, as the brain generates another personality altered by its experiences, making the Original personality dormant. None of this helps your point. In fact:

"As expected I don't need those eyes. As a component of Ryougi Shiki they are too dangerous. But before I destroy them --- I may need to anesthetise you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Please tell me why Araya wanted to destroy MEoDP and constantly talks about obtaining Ryougi's body specifically (Which would equate to Void even under your unsound logic of the body and the soul being different lol) if he wanted to complete his plan with MEoDP? You are reaching so hard here, you may reach another galaxy, all to deny Void's powers.

There’s a difference between “this blow is powerful enough to shatter concrete”, and “this blow is powerful enough to cause harm to Shiki, whose durability could be likened to concrete.”
the former is stated outright. the latter is a reach.

Nice try. The overall statement is saying "Shiki's body, while powerful, was still that of a young girl, so it could not withstand a blow capable of smashing concrete". It's entirely used in relation to her biological vulnerabilities. It's simply saying that even though Shiki is strong, she is not invincible and extreme physical force like that from Araya's punch could exploit her human vulnerabilities. Even if she was hypotetically as resistant to blunt force as a concrete wall or a large tree, Araya would have demolished her all the same, so her actual human body stood no chance against him. That's not a "reach", it's simply interpreting things in a logical manner. Your interpretation is overlooking the context of the entire statement and focusing narrowly on one part, which does not align with the full logical context provided.

supplementary material enforces how physically fragile she is, saying she’s surprisingly weak without her sword or knife,

I already addressed this. The source you are citing is a hypotetical fighting game, meaning that the damage the characters deal is referring to in-game mechanics. It's talking about the damage value they have in-game should the player hit the opposing character. It's not a lore info. How do we know that? Because Kishima Kouma's "damage is the highest of all the characters", so is Kouma stronger than Archetype Earth now? lol. It's fine to use the actual moves and blatant in-lore info (Like Roa's Overload or Ryougi's precog with her katana), but the damage they deal is purely related to game mechanics. If you insist on this point, then please tell me how can Kouma hit harder than Archetype Earth.

and that she struggled so much against araya’s implanted arm, when a flame could have been set to it and burned it away.

First, that's never stated anywhere. Second, and? The sarira, despite their spiritual protection, are still physical objects that can be harmed by physical force, yes. Their protection can negate metaphysical influences such as MEoDP, since they belong to someone that achieved enlightenment and removed himself from the cycle of death and rebirth. However, this protection has no bearing on the physical world, meaning you can harm them physically, even though they are still noticeably more durable than the rest of Araya's body. But..... you'd still need physical force exceeding Araya's own continental durability in order to damage them. You are not making any sense here. What even is your point? lol.

being easier to kill, does not equal being weaker.

Ryougi said that fighting and killing Nrvnqsr would be way easier than fighting and killing Araya. That can only have one implication: Araya is much stronger. That's confirmed by Ryougi dispatching Nrvnqsr without much issues despite only having her knife, while Araya wrecked her while holding back and made her fear for her life. Again, you focus on a singular line on a vacuum and overlook the entire context, it's embarassing.

Even ignoring that, in order to actually kill someone, you have to outperform them in combat and trace their lines, so their physical capabilities would be included by default. And Nrvnqsr has an entire world of creatures that automatically guards him from surprise attacks and can be spammed in large quantities in unexpected ways. That's, if anything, way harder than defeating a guy whose main shtick outside his complex are three circular barriers you can easily kill with MEoDP.

touko notes how buffed he is in his complex, and he would be equal to alba otherwise…. who is compared to kayneth of all people.

The statement that "their abilities may be equal" is vague and does not directly address physical stats, especially since Araya is explicitly described as being unmatched in close combat in the modern age:

"Thus, the only way for Araya to eliminate Touko was through close combat. Araya was a man who had survived tumultuous times. In physical combat, there was no one in the modern era who could stand against him." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This indicates that Araya's physical prowess surpasses that of anyone else in the modern era, suggesting that any vague comparison of "equal abilities" does not pertain to physical strength.

Furthermore, it cannot refer to their skillsets, as Alba and Araya have fundamentally different approaches. Alba is characterized as a "destroyer" with a focus on high-speed, ranged magic, while Araya is a close-range fighter employing bounded fields to make himself invincible. Their abilities and styles are described as fundamentally different, with Araya consistently depicted as a far bigger deal by the narrative.

The only thing I can think that statement could be referring to is maybe their proficiency with magecraft? Or general abilities as a magus? Pretty vague, and any significant area of comparison is blatantly contradicted in the same chapter, so idk. It falls short of the far more numerous and concrete evidence that Araya skullcrushes Alba.

Plus, nero starts with his fodder beasts anyways, and slowly ramps up.

Not always. Especially not against Ryougi, who has the same MEoDP as Nanaya Shiki, who made Nrvnqsr suffer a humiliating defeat back in Tsukihime. He would go all-out or close to it from the start, especially since he even blatantly does so when he actually meets Nanaya again in MB Re-Act. Ryougi was also still completely unimpressed by Nrvnqsr after the fight was over, meaning he is not relevant to her, nevermind Araya.

Sojuurou is stated verbatim to be the strongest TM protagonist.

By who? By Nasu? The same dude who said Living Gilgamesh would barely beat living Saber Alter? That Void is Ciel tier but then suddenly the second strongest character? The guy who said Arcueid is the strongest TM character, but then turns around and said ORT is? The guy who said Kirei can beat Ciel? The guy who can't even get basic lore about KnK right? The same guy who admitted being a compulsive liar, with the Fate/Zero team making fun of his incoeherent statements? What a great source.

Again, not only has Nasu repeatedly contradicted his supposed stories, but he contradicted even his other interview statements and is known to be unreliable as a source even by his own staff. And even if he wasn't as unreliable, the source material still takes precedence over any external comments, as the text isn't going to magically alter itself to follow what an author says on the spot, with potentially having bad memory problems or just having a different opinion at the time. Akira Toriyama forgot Super Saiyan 3 was a thing, does that mean the form is magically not canon? No, it's simply an invalid statement akin to fanfiction.
Please, argue on the source material.

the text not describing her damage doesn’t equal being damaged.

The text not describing any damage, despite emphasizing the difficulty of the maneuver, and the fact that Shiki continues to fight without issue against Asagami, strongly suggests that she wasn’t actually harmed, yeah? The novel only mentions that Shiki’s arm was being bent by Asagami, with no reference to additional damage from the fall.

also ignoring chapter 5 where she does take damage in a superior state,even while arayas barrier absorbing the impact force for her.

Dude, all it says is that it would've worsened her already existing injuries, and you have to remember that fall would be combined with her own speed. So that wouldn't have been a normal fall in the first place. Again, by your logic, Goku being harmed by Frieza throwing a mountain at him means he must be mountain level.

that is a straw man, I specifically replied under the sentence where you touted knocking someone out in one shot as being outside human capability.

Pretty sure you didn't, but even then, you are wrong. Even setting aside the difficulty of knocking someone out with a single hit (especially while tired and injured like Shiki was) what she accomplished is inherently more impressive: Shiki not only avoided the collapse of a bridge with a broken arm, which is an impossible feat for anyone IRL, but she also managed to one-shot a fully grown man despite being exhausted and having lost a significant amount of blood.

a real life person has survived a fall from 10000 meters up, so it is not impossible.

.....................

Following the bombing, Vulović spent days in a coma and was hospitalized for several months. She suffered a fractured skull, three broken vertebrae, broken legs, broken ribs, and a fractured pelvis. These injuries resulted in her being temporarily paralyzed from the waist down.

And this is the biggest outlier on the planet too. Since most people die instantly. The one person who doesn't, this still happens to them. ^ Just stop dude.

no? I’m talking about you saying they wield opposing concepts = they don’t have the same origin, when araya is just talking about their specific circumstances. this is all BEFORE he says they have the same origin anyway.

I've already detailed why their Origins cannot be exactly the same, citing several novel quotes and explaining the context behind their personalities and Origin powers. The evidence shows that while their Origins might be vaguely similar, they are fundamentally different. The text even puts "Origin" in quotation marks. The use of those quotation marks indicates that while they may have a common underlying concept or fundamental trait (Nothingness), it is not identical in every aspect. The term "diverged" further supports the idea that, despite their similarities, there are significant differences between them. They started from a common point but developed in different directions or became distinct in some ways. Kirie being the mental nothingness, Asagami the physical nothingness, and Ryougi being the actual abstract Nothigness we are interested in. They are all specific and different applications of Nothingness, which is their shared thematic element. I don't know how else to explain this to you.
Araya would have used the much more easily accessible and easy to manipulate Asagami or Kirie in that case, never bothering with Ryougi. Stop devolving the narrative into incoherent nonsense.
Not going in circles with this. If you fail to address the points I raised some posts ago, I'm going to count that as a concession.

A Mobius strip is a real like construct that can be physically made.

That's such an incredibly compelling counteargument to everything I said.

Fact is, Touko never said shit about Ryougi being physically weak or being possible to be contained by physical prisons. She was merely making fun of Araya's perspective in thinking he could contain someone who can kill all things with no exceptions, including the abstract.

so… an adaptation.

A guidebook....Is an adaptation?

...Ok dude...LOL.

i’ve already proved how calling Arcueid a god is a categorical error that the franchise takes note of several times.

It's a hyperbolic title to design top tier entities. It's also used in the context of Shiki's catchphrase of being able to kill even gods as long as they live, which she used in response to Archetype supposedly lacking a concept of Death. You are taking this way too seriously. It just refers to Ultimate Ones being perceived as God-like entities.

And even ignoring that, what the hell would the statement refer to then? It's saying that in Ryougi's ending, after killing Tohno, what she was destinated to do was killing a god, with Archetype being the person she encounters right after killing Tohno. Shiki counters Archetype’s confidence in her supposed invulnerability by asserting that no matter how a god might seem, it would still fall to her as long as it exists. The context is obvious.

**Only that the bastard's objective is to reach the Maelstrom of Origins. In that case he would open up Shiki's body, but thankfully that rat doesn’t have the guts for something like that. **He will probably think it over until time runs out. He was always like that. It was fine for him to be happy about capturing a Redcap alive, but he didn't know how to dissect it properly so it eventually rotted. Well, even the person himself said as much, but Shiki's body will probably be fine for another 7 days, of course this is in the case that she was captured safely."
Touko-san says something very disturbing.
"--- Shiki's fine. That guy, he said he was keeping her. That phrase includes the meaning that she's alive."
Me who is rebutting her words, without realising it I was glaring at Touko-san.
Because, while my mouth was saying this --- I had imagined Shiki getting murdered.
"--- And so, if we don't rescue her quickly."

This is Touko talking about Alba, not Araya. As she didn't know about him yet, only suspected later on he was behind it after actually going there. And this overall statement is typical Touko vague blabber. I already posted very explicit statements about Araya wanting Void Shiki and not giving a shit about MEoDP. Please, address those.

 

[HyperZero95]

1) The entire exposition of the scene is about how these limits OUGHT TO EXIST for the infinite space to EVEN BE INFINITE.

I've already said this is the case dude. LOL You're trying to start a disagreement where there is none.

2) "enclosed, inifnite space"... See what it's written there? ENCLOSED - Enclosed in what? The limits of the "space" so defined - what exactly they are don't matter, but they objectively exist and the infinite space is IN THEM EMBEDDED. Not only these limits exist, they are re-affirmed.

It's in the walls of his complex. You may say his complex is finite, but we know that infinite sized dimensions can exist within finite things. Just look at the Moon Cell.

The place in the complex's walls is its own realm, so it doesn't play to conventional size constraints, like having to be finite because it's in his complex. It's another space entirely.

"Enclosed" is just a way of emphasizing the spatial and practical isolation of the dimension rather than its literal shape or extent. This ensures that while the space is boundless, it is still functionally and conceptually isolated.

The thing Shiki "acessed" was her own interior, re-read the novel, please - the fact that Akasha exists outside of the World means that even physically doesn't "mean" anything there, as it is a thing defined by Textures... The whole thing was about how she was forced to "gaze upon her own interior" or something like that, in a manner similar to Void, or something of that sense. Akasha can't even be a purely physical place from the start.

Please take your own advice, since you couldn't even distinguish Coke's translation from other translations, which shows you never read the novel.

Where does it say anything about accessing her own interior to destroy Araya's reality? What does that even entail?

Wallachia isn't abstract - as you said, he's a phenomen.

....Which is abstract.

Had Tohno looked at natural phenomena, the result would be the same, Phenomena aren't "true things", but merely resultants,

Which is why it's abstract. It's not a physically definable thing. Do you even know what abstract means? I know VSBattles screws it up, since they think physical spaces like higher dimensions can contain or transcend concepts, so this may have skewered your perception of what the abstract actually is.

there are paragraphs trying to explain how Nasuverse diferentiates them, and has nothing to do with this case. ( And presentation seem of Wallachia is very much physical. There is no Wallachia itself, and that is the problem that is the whole "phenomena" thing - There is no THE "Thunder" for "Thunder" to be killed yada yada )

You aren't even forming coherent sentences here.

 

[LehenDuo]

I've already said this is the case dude. LOL You're trying to start a disagreement where there is none.

It's in the walls of his complex. You may say his complex is finite, but we know that infinite sized dimensions can exist within finite things. Just look at the Moon Cell.

You literally just defined that the infinite sized (boundless/unbounded) dimension has limits. The limits do not have to be physically extant in the infinite sized dimension itself for them to exist. (Which is not the case in KNK, that clearly defines that "infinity" is itself limited, even if unbounded.)

The place in the complex's walls is its own realm, so it doesn't play to conventional size constraints, like having to be finite because it's in his complex. It's another space entirely.

"Enclosed" is just a way of emphasizing the spatial and practical isolation of the dimension rather than its literal shape or extent. This ensures that while the space is boundless, it is still functionally and conceptually isolated.

It's not isolated - functionally it has connections to the space it's embedded in. If it didn't, the scene where Araya throws Shiki through the wall to said infinite dimension wouldn't be possible. I don't even know what "conceptually isolated" would mean in this case. What concept is the space isolated from? (the infinite space even had infinite "Earth's air"/gaseous oxygen given she didn't suffocate.)

Please take your own advice, since you couldn't even distinguish Coke's translation from other translations, which shows you never read the novel.

I'm refering to the hospital scene... That is not Coke's translation, but any translation.
Shiki in her hospital bed was "submerged into " "" or something like that not because she went to " ", but because in the coma, she was forced to "gaze inside" just like the Void/Body personality. It's reiterated in the Epilogue.

Where does it say anything about accessing her own interior to destroy Araya's reality? What does that even entail?

Literally never said that?

....Which is abstract.

No, its very much concrete. Thunders aren't abstract. Wallachia isn't abstract. They just aren't singular entities.

Which is why it's abstract. It's not a physically definable thing. Do you even know what abstract means? I know VSBattles screws it up, since they think physical spaces like higher dimensions can contain or transcend concepts, so this may have skewered your perception of what the abstract actually is.

You are clearly confusing abstract and something else.
Wallachia is the phenomena that is the result of the "equation" that was added to the World by Zepia. He's a phenomena because he's no longer a singular entity, but rather a "resultant of a specific conjecture". Even if Wallachia as present is killed, when the circunstances for him to appear again arise (as per the function by Zepia engraved in the World) he will return.

But he's not in any way abstract.
You can compare the concept with Dynamic Systems, if you will.
( Tsubame Gaeshi, as an application of the Multi-Dimensional Refraction PHENOMEN also enters here... Or is "Tsubame Gaeshi", literally someone swinging a sword, abstract? )

You aren't even forming coherent sentences here.

There are entire paragraphs trying to explain how Nasuverse diferentiates them (phenomena vs rest), but it has nothing to do with this case. And the presentation/form/body that was seen of Wallachia is very much physical. There is no Wallachia itself (the entity would be Zepia, that doesn't exist anymore), and that is the problem that is the whole "phenomena" thing - There is no THE "Thunder" for "Thunder" to be killed.

 

[HyperZero95]

You literally just defined that the infinite sized (boundless/unbounded) dimension has limits. The limits do not have to be physically extant in the infinite sized dimension itself for them to exist. (Which is not the case in KNK, that clearly defines that "infinity" is itself limited, even if unbounded.)

Dude I think you need to take English classes or something because your sentences are incoherent and you seem to be completely misunderstanding mine.

I just said that Araya's dimension has limits, which are abstract limits. You SEEM to be saying the same thing. So what is the issue here? You're telling me I'm wrong, then repeating the same thing I've been saying as if I was saying something else. What's going on? Lmao.

It's not isolated - functionally it has connections to the space it's embedded in. If it didn't, the scene where Araya throws Shiki throw the wall to said infinite dimension wouldn't be possible. I don't even know what "conceptually isolated" would mean in this case. What concept is the space isolated from?

A dimension is its own space. You can access it via portals and things of that nature, but that's it

I'm refering to the hospital scene... That is not Coke's translation, but any translation.

I'm referring to you taking a jab at me a few pages ago by implying I used Coke's translation when I didn't.

Shiki in her hospital bed was "submerged into " "" or something like that not because she went to " ", but because in the coma, she was forced to "gaze inside" just like the Void/Body personality. It's reiterated in the Epilogue.

I don't see how this is a counterargument to abstract concepts only being able to be accessed mentally.

No, its very much concrete. Thunders aren't abstract. Wallachia isn't abstract. They just aren't singular entities.

Thunder/lightning is physical energy. Wallachia is information itself, which doesn't even physically manifest until spawning a Tatari body.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Got two SSR girls today. Nice!

Current state of my SSR servants:

 

[John985]

I got double SSR.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I got double SSR.

Gratz

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

So, uh, it turns out that Ciel is Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- Ciel, but she's just ended up combined with Servantverse stuff and Teach Me, Miss Ciel! after she burned down to the atomic level by Arcueid in their final battle.


NNNAAAASSSSSUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wankbreaker]

oh yea, the nero in melty is heavily nerfed, to the point that “anyone” could beat him

Nrvnqsr: "Not bad. As to be expected from Number 10. It exceeds even my former potential."

Nrvnqsr: "But───in these circumstances, it will not be enough────"

Shiki: "What's going on? ...... He's, fading......?"

Sion: "──Too early. After all, you are the only one for whom Nrvnqsr Chaos is a strongly held fear. There is not enough strength of rumor for full conceptualization. In that state, anyone could kill Tatari───"

The fight is over.

The Dead Apostle Tatari in the guise of Nrvnqsr from last year crumbles away.

Shiki: "............"

It really was incomplete.

If it was truly Nrvnqsr, it would not have been this easy.

Akiha: "It is over and the battle is decided, vampire."

Akiha walks closer.

Probably to finish it off.

 

[HyperZero95]

oh yea, the nero in melty is heavily nerfed, to the point that “anyone” could beat him

Nrvnqsr: "Not bad. As to be expected from Number 10. It exceeds even my former potential."

Nrvnqsr: "But───in these circumstances, it will not be enough────"

Shiki: "What's going on? ...... He's, fading......?"

Sion: "──Too early. After all, you are the only one for whom Nrvnqsr Chaos is a strongly held fear. There is not enough strength of rumor for full conceptualization. In that state, anyone could kill Tatari───"

Leaving out context yet again. The first statement you posted is merely referring to the manifestation of Nrvnqsr. It's saying that Tohno being the only one fearing Nrvnqsr made its Tatari last for only a limited amount of time, after which it had to fade away:

Sion saying "anyone could beat him in that state" is after he started to dematerialize/become unstable, which gave Shiki an opening.

In the very same fight, Wallachia confirmed Nrvnqsr's power exceeded his own and was worthy of the number 10 rank:

With Wallachia being above Dead Apostle Sion, who could keep up with and damage 30% Warcueid in her significantly weaker base form.

And notice how Tohno struggled massively with Nrvnqsr and only found an opening when he started fading away. That's important, as MB Tohno is so strong that Sion said Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power to attack him head-on while he was serious was akin to suicide, almost as if he cannot beat him in a direct fight due to his MEoDP:

And he has other impressive feats in the manga, which includes blitzing Dead Apostle Sion and Tatari Yumizuka, who is only a "bit behind" Arcueid according to Wallachia himself.

So no, Nrvnqsr Tatari is just as strong as the Original. Akiha herself confirmed that tataris are not lacking compared to the original people:

The ONLY scenario where tataris are weaker is the one pertaining your second quote:

The fight is over.

The Dead Apostle Tatari in the guise of Nrvnqsr from last year crumbles away.

Shiki: "............"

It really was incomplete.

If it was truly Nrvnqsr, it would not have been this easy.

Akiha: "It is over and the battle is decided, vampire."

Akiha walks closer.

Probably to finish it off.

How convenient you left out that....

It requires the full moon to be at its strongest. If it manifests earlier, it is incomplete and weakened.

You know what version of Nrvnqsr is actually weakened? The White Len tatari one, yet he is still strong enough to force Aoko Aozaki to retreat:

And then, he beats White Len Tatari Red Arcueid:

The same one that killed the real Arcueid so quickly she said "Aw, dead already?":

So even the actually nerfed nightmare manifestation of Nrvnqsr is well above 30%+ Arcueid. Which is further backed up by his other feats of defeating Powered Ciel without using his best beasts, or him being superior to Roa. But what I sent is more than enough.

So, was it the full moon when Ryougi killed Nrvnqsr? Absolutely, as Osiris in most AA routes rewrites the world with a replica of Wallachia's tatari, specifically the route where Arcueid defeats him by bringing the crimson moon into the present. This obviously happened when Wallachia was at its peak during the full moon, to the point he could manifest as Arcueid finally. We even visibly see the full moon when Ryougi fights Tohno, with her saying it's so bright hers and Tohno's MEoDP would have no troubles seeing each other.

The only other scenario where Tataris may be weakened is if Wallachia directly takes control of their bodies and their powers are too vast or foreign for him to use. But we saw in the above scans that he could easily draw out Nrvnqsr's full power anyway.

So no, sorry bud, but Ryougi casually shitstomped a full power Nrvnqsr and noted that he was complete fodder in comparison to Araya Souren. The worst part? Right afterwards, she goes on to kill Tohno Shiki and Archetype Earth.

The fact that you neither addressed any of my points nor tagged me after days of silence suggests you hoped I wouldn’t see your comment. This only highlights that you have no valid counterarguments left.

Just leave dude, your wank has been obliterated.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Leaving out context yet again. The first statement you posted is merely referring to the manifestation of Nrvnqsr. It's saying that Tohno being the only one fearing Nrvnqsr made its Tatari last for only a limited amount of time, after which it had to fade away:

Sion saying "anyone could beat him in that state" is after he started to dematerialize/become unstable, which gave Shiki an opening.

she’s talking in general because of the semi-conceptualization.

Tatari [Term]
A system that incites fear and rumors among the people, circulates them, and finally cultivates them into a single, well-defined "rule". It's like an urban legend that crops up one summer, explodes in popularity, then fades away as if it never happened at all.
The incarnation and realization of this system is known as the Dead Apostle Tatari. Because its form and abilities vary every time it appears depending on the scale of people's rumors, it is considered to be a perfect "unknown" – something with no true identity at all.

its abilities vary on the scale of peoples rumors. TATARI Nero operates on the lowest scale possible,working off of the rumors of 1 person.

In the very same fight, Wallachia confirmed Nrvnqsr's power exceeded his own and was worthy of the number 10 rank:

just an FYI, DAA ranks aren’t a direct comparison of power. the “king” of the DAAS is only rank 17, for example. and he has enough power and authority to boss nero around, despite having no special abilities besides the base dead apostle physical traits.

With Wallachia being above Dead Apostle Sion, who could keep up with and damage 30% Warcueid in her significantly weaker base form.


And notice how Tohno struggled massively with Nrvnqsr and only found an opening when he started fading away. That's important, as MB Tohno is so strong that Sion said Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power to attack him head-on while he was serious was akin to suicide, almost as if he cannot beat him in a direct fight due to his MEoDP:

sion says of how wallachia only knew about shikis raw stats without his MEODP,so it’s more talking about that than “wow!!! shiki is 5 billion times stronger than 30% arc”

And he has other impressive feats in the manga, which includes blitzing Dead Apostle Sion and Tatari Yumizuka, who is only a "bit behind" Arcueid according to Wallachia himself.


So no, Nrvnqsr Tatari is just as strong as the Original. Akiha herself confirmed that tataris are not lacking compared to the original people:

contradicted by the game itself

The ONLY scenario where tataris are weaker is the one pertaining your second quote:




How convenient you left out that....

It requires the full moon to be at its strongest. If it manifests earlier, it is incomplete and weakened.

You know what version of Nrvnqsr is actually weakened? The White Len tatari one, yet he is still strong enough to force Aoko Aozaki to retreat:

aoko in react is a generic mid boss character

And then, he beats White Len Tatari Red Arcueid:

The same one that killed the real Arcueid so quickly she said "Aw, dead already?":

So even the actually nerfed nightmare manifestation of Nrvnqsr is well above 30%+ Arcueid. Which is further backed up by his other feats of defeating Powered Ciel without using his best beasts, or him being superior to Roa. But what I sent is more than enough.

yet this is completely removed in actress again, also even more reason not to take melty seriously, as you have things like base sion beating wallachia, when she explicitly couldn’t do so in the OG, beating osiris,which is literally just her but better, len beating Nanaya, and base arc beating archetype

So, was it the full moon when Ryougi killed Nrvnqsr? Absolutely, as Osiris in most AA routes rewrites the world with a replica of Wallachia's tatari, specifically the route where Arcueid defeats him by bringing the crimson moon into the present. This obviously happened when Wallachia was at its peak during the full moon, to the point he could manifest as Arcueid finally.

The only other scenario where Tataris may be weakened is if Wallachia directly takes control of their bodies and their powers are too vast or foreign for him to use. But we saw in the above scans that he could easily draw out Nrvnqsr's full power anyway.

Shiki killing TATARI Nero happens on the final day of the Og melty story… so this means nothing, as this is the exact same day as the red arc fight

So no, sorry bud, but Ryougi casually shitstomped a full power Nrvnqsr and noted that he was complete fodder in comparison to Araya Souren. The worst part? Right afterwards, she goes on to kill Tohno Shiki and Archetype Earth.

a holding back tohno just trying to get her to leave? wow impressive. and before you say “he was using his eyes”, his eyes were unbandaged during the fight with forte, and he didn’t even fight to injure her. she notes this herself.

The fact that you neither addressed any of my points nor tagged me after days of silence suggests you hoped I wouldn’t see your comment. This only highlights that you have no valid counterarguments left.

Just leave dude, your wank has been obliterated.

nah that’s not the case, I just couldn’t be bothered, i’ll get back to it eventually

 

[Wankbreaker]

just putting this out there


araya ~ toukos box demon <<<<<<<<<<< kiara (she is a true demon, so by virtue her existence and abilities are far superior.) <<<<<< Amaterasu (only extra arc is stated to be capable of beating her,and extra arc is heavily nerfed.)

 

[Wankbreaker]

also, just to show you why the melty ladder is?????

you say Nero is “well above 30% Arc”. yet:

Arcueid: Nrvnqsr Chaos......!? Amazing, a big fish like you is here? Just what wind blew you in?

Nrvnqsr: So, if it isn't the one who seeks to fence the world of vampires. It was not my intent, but I will settle things here. To take your head, I've followed you this far.

Arcueid: I see. It wasn't part of my plan, but if you want to die, I'll take you on. You were a friend of The Serpent, right? After I leave just your head, I'll make sure you tell me where he is.

---

Arcueid vs Nrvnqsr

Arcueid wins

this seems to be an alternate version of tsukihime which actually ironically lines up with the remakes order of events more, as she beats up Nero solo in that before getting killed by Shiki.


as you can see in the ending cg, she’s walking around in the city, and shiki is tailing her, so not even a nerfed tatari, she beat up the real deal. plus the fact that she’s still looking for roa in this mode
keep in mind: the 999th beast is compared in speed to 5% Arcueid.

 

[Wankbreaker]

i source my scripts from tri-Hermes like most of the community, useful tool

Menu

TYPE-MOON Lore Database

tri-hermes.org

 

[HyperZero95]

its abilities vary on the scale of peoples rumors. TATARI Nero operates on the lowest scale possible,working off of the rumors of 1 person.

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

just an FYI, DAA ranks aren’t a direct comparison of power. the “king” of the DAAS is only rank 17, for example. and he has enough power and authority to boss nero around, despite having no special abilities besides the base dead apostle physical traits.

Yes, but under this context, Wallachia was clearly referring to his power, saying it exceeded his own.

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

sion says of how wallachia only knew about shikis raw stats without his MEODP,so it’s more talking about that than “wow!!! shiki is 5 billion times stronger than 30% arc”

I never said Shiki is billions of times above 30% Arc. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

The point is that Shiki is above 30% Arcueid due to both his physical stats and MEoDP when serious, which is backed up by his other feats.

contradicted by the game itself

Nah. You posted no examples of Tataris under Wallachia and Osiris being weakened without actual context around it.

aoko in react is a generic mid boss character

She is strong enough to defeat Roa in AA, placing her well above 30% Arcueid. Also, Aoko isn't serious against everyone in AC or Re-Act, but sometimes holds back and doesn't fight seriously. It's a case by case basis on how to treat her defeats.

yet this is completely removed in actress again, also even more reason not to take melty seriously,

LMAO
What?
I'm sorry, but what?

It wasn’t 'removed' in Actress Again. Actress Again is a sequel to AC and Re-Act, so naturally, it focuses on a different story arc. In AC, White Len Tatari Nrvnqsr defeats White Len Tatari Red Arcueid. Later, in Actress Again, his Wallachia Tatari self follows a different path. Surprising, right? It’s almost as if sequels tend to have different stories than their prequels.

as you have things like base sion beating wallachia, when she explicitly couldn’t do so in the OG

Nah, Sion becomes stronger as time goes on, as noted by Ciel in the first game:

So her later showings simply means that she has improved. Nothing of so unfathomable.

, beating osiris,which is literally just her but better,

On what basis? Osiris is just a fraction of Sion's soul that developed inside of Tatari. On top of that, she represented a future version of herself that took the path of research rather than chasing after Wallachia, which would likely make her even less combatively capable compared to her true self. She is just a piece of the real Sion.

len beating Nanaya,

A weakened manifestation of Nanaya summoned by White Len and lacked MEoDP. There is nothing to my knowledge that establishes Len as being incapable of beating that version of Nanaya. She even defeated Nrvnqsr Chaos in AA, which shows she is pretty strong, as expected from the familiar of Arcueid.

and base arc beating archetype

In a mental battle for the control of their body. You have been exposed 2000 times for leaving out the context of this one. Lmao.

Shiki killing TATARI Nero happens on the final day of the Og melty story… so this means nothing, as this is the exact same day as the red arc fight

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

a holding back tohno just trying to get her to leave? wow impressive. and before you say “he was using his eyes”, his eyes were unbandaged during the fight with forte, and he didn’t even fight to injure her. she notes this herself.

Alright, let me explain this once and for all:
When Ryougi met Tohno, she made it clear that she didn’t care who he was or anything about him. Her only goal, driven by Void, was to kill him. Tohno, recognizing the seriousness of the situation, removed his glasses and activated his MEoDP. This act proves that he was fully prepared for a lethal confrontation, even stating that although this approach wasn’t typical for him, this night was different, just as Ryougi had implied. Both of them were committed to a fight to the death, setting everything else aside.

Ryougi then noted that this was her first time witnessing MEoDP in person and acknowledged their truly mystic nature. Both she and Tohno agreed that those who possess these eyes are dangerous and should be exterminated because of the anomaly they represent.

So, where exactly did you get the idea that Tohno didn’t want to kill her? Because he said he would make her 'leave'? He specifically said he would make her 'leave together with those eyes of yours,' clearly referring to the threat her eyes pose. Why wouldn’t he be willing to kill her when she’s a stranger who only wants to kill him and possesses the same deadly MEoDP?

There is no real evidence that Tohno was holding back, aside from non-canon loss quotes that contradict the story. In this context, "make you leave" could be a figurative or euphemistic way for Tohno to express his intent to kill Ryougi. By stating that she will "leave this place together with those eyes of yours," he likely means to end her life, thereby eliminating the danger posed by her Mystic Eyes. The specific mention of "those eyes" suggests that Tohno's primary concern is the threat her eyes represent. By "making her leave" with her eyes, he implies that he plans to completely neutralize her and the threat they pose.

By your logic, Archetype saying this:

Means that she didn't want to kill Ryougi and only make her run away, when it's blatantly stated she was in the mood for a fight to the death due to seeing Tohno's corpse in front of her. You need to understand that mere vague phrases like "I'll make you leave/run along" can be easily be a metaphor for death or shit talk, what matters is that the overalll context all points to Tohno being willing to kill Ryougi.

Given the context of their encounter, where both characters understand the destructive power of their eyes, Tohno’s words can be seen as an acknowledgment that this is a fight to the death. He may have accepted that lethal force is the only way to stop her. While Tohno might typically be reluctant to kill, the direct threat from someone with similar abilities makes it logical for him to consider killing her as the only viable solution.

And EVEN IF he did hold back, Ryougi went on to kill someone far more powerful immediately after (Archetype). She also previously defeated Nrvnqsr Chaos easily, while Tohno couldn’t even land a hit on him in the first Melty Blood. While Tohno would have improved by the time of Actress Again, there’s no indication he could defeat Nrvnqsr as effortlessly as Ryougi did. This is also in light of Tohno being overtaken by his Nanaya instincts during intense moments, even against people he cared about, like Akiha or Yumizuka. You have literally no way out of this: Ryougi > Tohno.

nah that’s not the case, I just couldn’t be bothered, i’ll get back to it eventually

Nah man, don't bother.

araya ~ toukos box demon <<<<<<<<<<< kiara (she is a true demon, so by virtue her existence and abilities are far superior.) <<<<<< Amaterasu (only extra arc is stated to be capable of beating her,and extra arc is heavily nerfed.)

That Amaterasu wank is getting old dude. It was stated that Arcueid is JUST about the only one capable of defeating her. Kiara is explicitly described as having universal scale and power, which massively surpasses Ama, who is merely a facet of the sun. Extra materials also states that only Buddha can actually fight Kiara due to being able to counter her seduction hax. Kiara stomps Ama due to her reality warping being of massively greater scale (The entire greater universe rather than a single celestial body) and her hard-countering her via her seduction hax.

KnK Araya = Touko's unknown demon <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Amaterasu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Kiara <<<<<<<< Extra Arcueid <<<<< Archetype Earth < Base Ryougi (After mastering MEoDP) <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Araya at his peak after mastering Stillness (His physical stats are already on this level in KnK, but his underdeveloped reality warping means he cannot beat anyone on those tiers, as their abilities make physicals irrelevant) <<<<<<<<<<< Self Hypnosis Ryougi <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Void.

also, just to show you why the melty ladder is?????

you say Nero is “well above 30% Arc”. yet:

Arcueid: Nrvnqsr Chaos......!? Amazing, a big fish like you is here? Just what wind blew you in?

Nrvnqsr: So, if it isn't the one who seeks to fence the world of vampires. It was not my intent, but I will settle things here. To take your head, I've followed you this far.

Arcueid: I see. It wasn't part of my plan, but if you want to die, I'll take you on. You were a friend of The Serpent, right? After I leave just your head, I'll make sure you tell me where he is.

Except this was an alternate timeline in Tsukihime itself, where Arcueid fights Nrvnqsr before Nanaya kills her, which is about to happen in her arcade ending. At this point in the story, Arcueid still lacks a concept of death at night, which is when the fight with Nrvnqsr takes place.
Given this, Nrvnqsr had no real way to kill Arcueid, who not only had her backup and MP to handle him but also had the advantage of the Millennium Chains. While Nrvnqsr could typically win under these conditions, Arcueid's lack of a concept of death meant he essentially stood no chance and was ultimately outlasted by her.

i source my scripts from tri-Hermes, useful tool

Thanks man. If only it also taught people to interpret that material in good faith...

 

[HyperZero95]

keep in mind: the 999th beast is compared in speed to 5% Arcueid.

Didn't see your edit. But no, it was compared to Arcueid using her back up on Nrvnqsr's strongest beasts from within his body. This is why she was running away from his beasts at first, but then suddenly halted and stomped them, which is consistent with other instances like against Ciel. The actual weakened Arcueid is weaker than a freaking Dead...So there is no actual way she is anywhere near Dead Apostles. For someone who wanks Arcueid so much, you surely are ignorant of her capabilities and the dynamics of her fights.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Didn't see your edit. But no, it was compared to Arcueid using her back up on Nrvnqsr's strongest beasts from within his body. This is why she was running away from his beasts at first, but then suddenly halted and stomped them, which is consistent with other instances like against Ciel. The actual weakened Arcueid is weaker than a freaking Dead...So there is no actual way she is anywhere near Dead Apostles. For someone who wanks Arcueid so much, you surely are ignorant of her capabilities and the dynamics of her fights.

pre-remake arc could only focus her backup on a single existence. and when she does use her backup, it’s made known, like in the ciel route. also, source for the second sentence?

 

[HyperZero95]

pre-remake arc could only focus her backup on a single existence.

I said that she used it on Nrvnqsr's strongest beast from within his body, with Nrvnqsr being overall a single existence that includes all of his familiars. How the hell does this sentence address any of that?

Nrvnqsr's strongest beast < Arcueid using back up on It = The 999th Beast partially manifested < 999th Beast (Nanaya implied his speed was even higher than before when he tried his last attack and we visibly saw the form).

and when she does use her backup, it’s made known, like in the ciel route.

You don't need things to be spelled out in big bold letters for them to be true. The fact she was running away from his beasts but then suddenly became able to stomp them is already plenty of indication she used it. How can I trust you to understand a complex franchise like TM if you cannot even recognize basic logical deduction?

also, source for the second sentence?

In the hotel, Nrvnqsr said Arcueid's presence was weaker than that of a Dead, and she got shitstomped by a random crocodile of his. And she is not going from Dead level to Nrvnqsr level in a single night after that.

 

[Wankbreaker]

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

not a counter argument

Yes, but under this context, Wallachia was clearly referring to his power, saying it exceeded his own.

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.



I never said Shiki is billions of times above 30% Arc. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.

The point is that Shiki is above 30% Arcueid due to both his physical stats and MEoDP when serious, which is backed up by his other feats.

yet gets overpowered by her multiple times.
and 30% arc completely overpowers nero, and that 30% arc would be weaker than the current one, as she still didn’t regain the power roa siphoned from her. this power he stole was enough to get him from a normal dead apostle, to strong enough to beat altrouge. she even gains the ability to kill souls, as in mbaa, she says she’ll even tear his soul apart.


a weaker Nero had MB Shiki struggling hard, and said the real Nero would have not been this easy.

remember: roa in KT calls the 27 ants compared to the crimson moon, and sion calls them children. Nero’s direct superior had to jump arc while she was sleeping with a few other ancestors.

Nah. You posted no examples of Tataris under Wallachia and Osiris being weakened without actual context around it.



She is strong enough to defeat Roa in AA, placing her well above 30% Arcueid. Also, Aoko isn't serious against everyone in AC or Re-Act, but sometimes holds back and doesn't fight seriously. It's a case by case basis on how to treat her defeats.

there’s a general statement of her not being serious at all in react, but besides that there’s nothing implying she’s selective, she’s just a generic mid boss.

LMAO
What?
I'm sorry, but what?

It wasn’t 'removed' in Actress Again. Actress Again is a sequel to AC and Re-Act, so naturally, it focuses on a different story arc. In AC, White Len Tatari Nrvnqsr defeats White Len Tatari Red Arcueid. Later, in Actress Again, his Wallachia Tatari self follows a different path. Surprising, right? It’s almost as if sequels tend to have different stories than their prequels.

many arcade modes are unchanged,but regardless, tatari red arc is explicitly made from a “small shred” of the real one’s bloodlust.

Nah, Sion becomes stronger as time goes on, as noted by Ciel in the first game:

So her later showings simply means that she has improved. Nothing of so unfathomable.

the level of improvement you’re

On what basis? Osiris is just a fraction of Sion's soul that developed inside of Tatari. On top of that, she represented a future version of herself that took the path of research rather than chasing after Wallachia, which would likely make her even less combatively capable compared to her true self. She is just a piece of the real Sion.

a sion that was constantly fighting for control of the TATARI, learned the unified language, and inherited all of its abilities is weaker than normal sion. not to mention she has all the weapons of the original sion + Hermes.
and has enough ability to be considered an ancestor.

she’s also considered to be superior to wallachia, as she can do things with the TATARI that he can’t, like making a TATARI roa, or being able to learn 2 reality marbles.

A weakened manifestation of Nanaya summoned by White Len and lacked MEoDP. There is nothing to my knowledge that establishes Len as being incapable of beating that version of Nanaya. She even defeated Nrvnqsr Chaos in AA, which shows she is pretty strong, as expected from the familiar of Arcueid.




In a mental battle for the control of their body. You have been exposed 2000 times for leaving out the context of this one. Lmao.

yet there are craters and stuff left behind.

This is not a counter to what I said. Please try to understand and address the actual argument. Here, let me improve your reading so that you can finally debate properly.



He took his glasses off and said he will leave aside his usual style for that fight, after Ryougi openly told him she just wanted to kill him. So from what did you gather that he didn't want to kill her? Because he said he will make her "leave"? Which can be easily used as a metaphor of Death? Sorry, but there is no actual evidence Tohno was holding back, outside of non-canon loss quotes that goes against the story. Ryougi then kills someone far above him right afterwards.

“Non-canon” the quote that is exclusive to this mode, is non canon because it goes against your agenda. okay
if he wanted to kill her, he would’ve just said “kill”.

you’ve been corrected multiple times (the mistranslation, how calling Arcueid a god actually contradicts several lore details, the actual reliability of the source, not being written by typemoon), but sure man

Nah man, don't bother.



That Amaterasu wank is getting old dude. It was stated that Arcueid is JUST about the only one capable of defeating her. Kiara is explicitly described as having universal scale and power, which massively surpasses Ama, who is merely a facet of the sun. Extra materials also states that only Buddha can actually fight Kiara due to being able to counter her seduction hax. Kiara stomps Ama due to her reality warping being of massively greater scale (The entire greater universe rather than a single celestial body) and her hard-countering her via her seduction hax.

that’s actually wrong, the actual line says something closer to “likely the only one capable” of defeating ama.

regardless, the Buddha point is actually irrelevant, as one of amaterasus alter egos/names is Vairocana, the supreme Buddha. she outranks him.

KnK Araya = Touko's unknown demon <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Amaterasu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Kiara <<<<<<<< Extra Arcueid <<<<< Archetype Earth < Base Ryougi (After mastering MEoDP) <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Araya at his peak after mastering Stillness (His physical stats are already on this level in KnK, but his underdeveloped reality warping means he cannot beat anyone on those tiers, as their abilities make physicals irrelevant) <<<<<<<<<<< Self Hypnosis Ryougi <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Void.

Except this was an alternate timeline in Tsukihime itself, where Arcueid fights Nrvnqsr before Nanaya kills her, which is about to happen in her arcade ending. At this point in the story, Arcueid still lacks a concept of death at night, which is when the fight with Nrvnqsr takes place.
Given this, Nrvnqsr had no real way to kill Arcueid, who not only had her backup and MP to handle him but also had the advantage of the Millennium Chains. While Nrvnqsr could typically win under these conditions, Arcueid's lack of a concept of death meant he essentially stood no chance and was ultimately outlasted by her.



Thanks man. If only it also taught people to interpret that material in good faith...

So? the melty arc would actually be stronger because of reclaiming Roa’s stolen powers.

I said that she used it on Nrvnqsr's strongest beast from within his body, with Nrvnqsr being overall a single existence that includes all of his familiars. How the hell does this sentence address any of that?

Nrvnqsr's strongest beast < Arcueid using back up on It = The 999th Beast partially manifested < 999th Beast (Nanaya implied his speed was even higher than before when he tried his last attack and we visibly saw the form).



You don't need things to be spelled out in big bold letters for them to be true. The fact she was running away from his beasts but then suddenly became able to stomp them is already plenty of indication she used it. How can I trust you to understand a complex franchise like TM if you cannot even recognize basic logical deduction?

its obvious when she uses it, Shiki notes in ciel route that the area has been painted over with her will,and that it feels oppressive.

In the hotel, Nrvnqsr said Arcueid's presence was weaker than that of a Dead, and she got shitstomped by a random crocodile of his. And she is not going from Dead level to Nrvnqsr level in a single night after that.

He later says he underestimated her,even when weakened.

 

[Robo432343]

not a counter argument

thats literally because you're the one who didn't refute what he said first

 

[HyperZero95]

not a counter argument

Yours isn't, yeah. Did you read the sources I sent you? You may be able to keep up with me after studying it intensely.

yet gets overpowered by her multiple times.

Who? Shiki? Sion? Do I have to send "how to write" articles now?

and 30% arc completely overpowers nero,

Never happened. She only beat him once due to lacking a concept of death still and thus Nrvnqsr having no way to kill her. With that out of the way? He beat a more aggressive and powerful Red Arcueid, with normal Arcueid saying Nrvnqsr is supremely powerful and difficult to beat even with her full power.

and that 30% arc would be weaker than the current one, as she still didn’t regain the power roa siphoned from her.

Said Arcueid after regaining that power stolen by Roa in MB lost to Tatari Red Arcueid, who then lost to Nrvnqsr. She also lost to Wallachia, who outright said Nrvnqsr is more powerful than he is.

this power he stole was enough to get him from a normal dead apostle, to strong enough to beat altrouge. she even gains the ability to kill souls, as in mbaa, she says she’ll even tear his soul apart.

She never fights Roa in AA.

a weaker Nero had MB Shiki struggling hard, and said the real Nero would have not been this easy.

I already explained this dude, lmao. Let me re-post my explanation:

How convenient you left out that....

It requires the full moon to be at its strongest. If it manifests earlier, it is incomplete and weakened.

remember: roa in KT calls the 27 ants compared to the crimson moon, and sion calls them children.

I don't recall the Roa quote, but the Sion quote is referring to how True Ancestors can command the planet with their thoughts and other abilities from their status as pseudo Types of Gaia. They have powers that are far beyond Dead Apostles naturally, but it has nothing to do with physical stats. The statements of TA's superiority are more so referring to their status and the abilities that comes from it (Back up, no concept of death, marble phantasm etc.), while DAAs have still abilities that a human could hypotetically reach with time. But TAs have abilities that cannot be gained, no matter how hard one trains or evolves. But again, none of those abilities is referring to physical stats. It does not preclude DAAs from being able to face TAs restricting their bloodlust. And even then there are DAAs that still have abstract abilities operating at Demon Lords tier due to receiving their powers from being bitten by them and not needing to restrict any bloodlust.

Nero’s direct superior had to jump arc while she was sleeping with a few other ancestors.

Who? What? When? I can only assume you mean Roa, to which that's hilarious, as he directly beat Altrouge, was left alone by the 27 DAAs due to them being unable to do shit to him, and killed the remaining True Ancestors all by himself, with statements of him being the strongest vampire.

there’s a general statement of her not being serious at all in react, but besides that there’s nothing implying she’s selective, she’s just a generic mid boss.

In some routes she is clearly playing around and holding back, which some characters even comments on. In other routes, she is serious and willing to kill. Generally, those fights where it's daytime and she acts chill are the ones where she is not going all-out. While the ones when it's night are more serious. Again, it's a case by case basis. Furthermore, you ignored how she beat Roa, making her stronger than 30% Arcueid. Concession accepted.

many arcade modes are unchanged,

AA's routes are completely different from AC's and Re-Act's. So you are just openly admitting you haven't played shit.

but regardless, tatari red arc is explicitly made from a “small shred” of the real one’s bloodlust.

Yes, that's why she is weakened when White Len summoned her. And yet she still beat the real Arcueid and lost to Nrvnqsr. Like, what is your point? Lmao.

the level of improvement you’re

You haven't pasted the full sentence your buddies sent you.

a sion that was constantly fighting for control of the TATARI, learned the unified language, and inherited all of its abilities is weaker than normal sion. not to mention she has all the weapons of the original sion + Hermes.
and has enough ability to be considered an ancestor.

How the hell does that any of that change the fact she is still a fraction of Sion? She is weaker. Both feats and her origin as a piece of the real Sion proves that. The end.

she’s also considered to be superior to wallachia, as she can do things with the TATARI that he can’t, like making a TATARI roa, or being able to learn 2 reality marbles.

That has nothing to do with combative abilities. Just her being better as Tatari.

yet there are craters and stuff left behind.

There is no crater dude. Stop lying. How the hell would Arcueid even fight Archetype for real, if they are in the same body? The location they "fought" in wasn't even visibly the same one she fought Ciel in seconds prior.

“Non-canon” the quote that is exclusive to this mode, is non canon because it goes against your agenda. okay
if he wanted to kill her, he would’ve just said “kill”.

It's non canon because it's not supposed to happen. It's non-canon because loss quotes of similar caliber have Ries and Ciel above Archetype Earth, which makes no sense, and that's because they are just random win quotes rather than alternate dead ends. The arcades are supposed to follow the character's story, which can include losses if required by the plot, but these funny win quotes are not part of it. It's non-canon because that timeline is supposed to have Ryougi killing Tohno and then Archetype. With this action being urged by Void, who is omniscient, hence the guidebook said that Ryougi's victory was "destinated", as it was set up by an omniscient god who knew Ryougi would have won.

My last post already explained the context around Tohno and why him being willing to kill Ryougi is 99% likely in AA, concession accepted.

you’ve been corrected multiple times

(the mistranslation,

The worst part? Even your so called "correct" translation says that Ryougi slaughtered Archetype. You just miss it because you are entirely disconnected from reality and filter information in a way that suits your outrageous agenda.

how calling Arcueid a god actually contradicts several lore details,

I already explained this in my last post. Concession accepted.

the actual reliability of the source,

Extremely high, given everything it says is accurate.

not being written by typemoon),

Being published by a third party does not mean it was also written by a third party or that TM wasn't involved with its creation. The guidebook is bundled with TL and has lore information that do not contradict the series in any way. You are, once again, coping hard because you cannot accept the truth. Kek.

that’s actually wrong, the actual line says something closer to “likely the only one capable” of defeating ama.

The actual line says JUST about, aka not the only one. And even the raws leaves room for other characters being able to beat Amaterasu. One of these would be Kiara. Why is that? Because greater universe > the Sun, and there is an explicit statement that says only Buddha can fight Kiara due to being the only one that can counter her seduction hax:

Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate. - Fate/Extra Material - Demonic Bodhisattva [Concept]

regardless, the Buddha point is actually irrelevant, as one of amaterasus alter egos/names is Vairocana, the supreme Buddha. she outranks him.

No she doesn't. She cannot control the greater universe and is limited to the Sun.

So? the melty arc would actually be stronger because of reclaiming Roa’s stolen powers.

She is only stronger in terms of physical stats, which doesn't mean much as she needs her back up to reach Nrvnqsr's level anyway. And again, this same Arcueid you are talking about still lost to her White Len Red Arc manifestation and Wallachia, who are both below Nrvnqsr.

its obvious when she uses it, Shiki notes in ciel route that the area has been painted over with her will,and that it feels oppressive.

That sounds more like reality warping or marble phantasm. Regardless, "its obvious" that she used it on Nrvnqsr too.

He later says he underestimated her,even when weakened.

Yes, because she could still use her back up for a bit.

 

[HyperZero95]

thats literally because you're the one who didn't refute what he said first

I have no idea why he even keeps going at this point. He is visibly ignoring most of my arguments and focusing on a smaller part he thinks he has a chance against. And even with those he keeps denying reality and spout objectively inaccuare information that are known by even casual anime watchers of KnK.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yours isn't, yeah. Did you read the sources I sent you? You may be able to keep up with me after studying it intensely.



Who? Shiki? Sion? Do I have to send "how to write" articles now?




Never happened. She only beat him once due to lacking a concept of death still and thus Nrvnqsr having no way to kill her. With that out of the way? He beat a more aggressive and powerful Red Arcueid, with normal Arcueid saying Nrvnqsr is supremely powerful and difficult to beat even with her full power.




Said Arcueid after regaining that power stolen by Roa in MB lost to Tatari Red Arcueid, who then lost to Nrvnqsr. She also lost to Wallachia, who outright said Nrvnqsr is more powerful than he is.

thanks for proving ladder scaling is inconsistent.

Nero outright remarks how weak tatari arc is compared to her real self

Nrvnqsr: ....... Hmph, already a demon? I wanted to destroy a sane Ancestor. It cannot be helped. It would be absurd to recognize you as my enemy when you are no different than a mere Dead Apostle!

---

Nrvnqsr vs Red Arcueid

Nrvnqsr wins

---

Nrvnqsr: ...... She disappeared? Was that a fake, or was it part of the Princess of the True Ancestor's vampiric impulse that became separated? Whatever the case, it wasn't the real thing.

I'll find you one day, Princess of the True Ancestors.

At that time, I will take you in and make myself supreme!

not to mention other stuff like base sion beating wallachia

She never fights Roa in AA.

She does? in his own arcade mode.

I already explained this dude, lmao. Let me re-post my explanation:

How convenient you left out that....

It requires the full moon to be at its strongest. If it manifests earlier, it is incomplete and weakened.

thanks for proving the point that a weaker Nero had Shiki struggling?

I don't recall the Roa quote, but the Sion quote is referring to how True Ancestors can command the planet with their thoughts and other abilities from their status as pseudo Types of Gaia. They have powers that are far beyond Dead Apostles naturally, but it has nothing to do with physical stats. The statements of TA's superiority are more so referring to their status and the abilities that comes from it (Back up, no concept of death, marble phantasm etc.), while DAAs have still abilities that a human could hypotetically reach with time. But TAs have abilities that cannot be gained, no matter how hard one trains or evolves. But again, none of those abilities is referring to physical stats. It does not preclude DAAs from being able to face TAs restricting their bloodlust. And even then there are DAAs that still have abstract abilities operating at Demon Lords tier due to receiving their powers from being bitten by them and not needing to restrict any bloodlust.

Doesn’t say “ant”,but rather footprint, but it’s the same sense of insignificance.

Who? What? When? I can only assume you mean Roa, to which that's hilarious, as he directly beat Altrouge, was left alone by the 27 DAAs due to them being unable to do shit to him, and killed the remaining True Ancestors all by himself, with statements of him being the strongest vampire.

I’m talking about Ortenrosse. he’s the one who ordered nero to come to Japan in the first place.

In some routes she is clearly playing around and holding back, which some characters even comments on. In other routes, she is serious and willing to kill. Generally, those fights where it's daytime and she acts chill are the ones where she is not going all-out. While the ones when it's night are more serious. Again, it's a case by case basis. Furthermore, you ignored how she beat Roa, making her stronger than 30% Arcueid. Concession accepted.

same roa who’s weaker than the same Nero who arc beat?

same roa who a weaker arc beat the shit out of, causing the vamprification of Shiki in the Ciel route?

AA's routes are completely different from AC's and Re-Act's. So you are just openly admitting you haven't played shit.



Yes, that's why she is weakened when White Len summoned her. And yet she still beat the real Arcueid and lost to Nrvnqsr. Like, what is your point? Lmao.

which is why ladder routes are inconsistent, as arc already beat Nero’s ass in one of them

You haven't pasted the full sentence your buddies sent you.

what is blud yapping about

How the hell does that any of that change the fact she is still a fraction of Sion? She is weaker. Both feats and her origin as a piece of the real Sion proves that. The end.

red arc is originated from a piece of the actual arcs bloodlust. yet you say she’s stronger. pick a stance

Red Arcueid: Wow, you sure said it. What, aren't I just a part of you? You're quite the monster, Arcueid. Compared to you, I'm just a small fry!

---

Red Arcueid vs Arcueid

Red Arcueid wins

---

Red Arcueid: Aw, dead already. That's really weird. Hundreds of people couldn't even kill her before. ....... Maybe it's because she was killed before?

...... Huhu, in that case, you have my thanks, unknown killer-san.

Now I've become the real thing.

---Just wait,

I'll have you take responsibility for killing me.......!

That has nothing to do with combative abilities. Just her being better as Tatari.

except she has abilities given to her by virtue of this. like tataris strongest attacks are manipulating malignant information

There is no crater dude. Stop lying. How the hell would Arcueid even fight Archetype for real, if they are in the same body? The location they "fought" in wasn't even visibly the same one she fought Ciel in seconds prior.

Ciel makes comments about the fight. regardless, we know from Tsukihime that the stronger soul/will would be the one in control. and you’re telling me base arcueid is superior in that front?

It's non canon because it's not supposed to happen. It's non-canon because loss quotes of similar caliber have Ries and Ciel above Archetype Earth, which makes no sense, and that's because they are just random win quotes rather than alternate dead ends. The arcades are supposed to follow the character's story, which can include losses if required by the plot, but these funny win quotes are not part of it. It's non-canon because that timeline is supposed to have Ryougi killing Tohno and then Archetype. With this action being urged by Void, who is omniscient, hence the guidebook said that Ryougi's victory was "destinated", as it was set up by an omniscient god who knew Ryougi would have won.

Yet arayas punch who was hyped to break concrete would smash her bones in, and knife ryougi is explicitly slower than fujinos sight.

Yet it’s posed as an alternate outcome to begin with.

like I said earlier, very few arcade modes have these alternate arcade exclusive loss
quotes.

also, are the quotes with ries and ciel arcade exclusive, or just normal quotes.

regardless,ries and ciel are far stronger than ryougi anyway, so this would be an infinitely better take, although still horribly wrong

My last post already explained the context around Tohno and why him being willing to kill Ryougi is 99% likely in AA, concession accepted.

“it’s a metaphor”, so the usual cope. Tohno doesn’t even talk metaphorically like that to begin with.

The worst part? Even your so called "correct" translation says that Ryougi slaughtered Archetype. You just miss it because you are entirely disconnected from reality and filter information in a way that suits your outrageous agenda.

“outrageous agenda”

has base ryougi win against the strongest existence of the planet she originates from

ignores the fact that a man who explicitly overpowers this version is equal to alba,who is compared to kayneth outside of his ward. his physical strength wouldn’t be affected either,just his barriers and all of that, araya was overpowering base shiki with his strength alone. meaning touko and alba would absolutely destroy her.

ignores the fact that it’s a dream route to begin with
pick one

I already explained this in my last post. Concession accepted.

no, you didn’t

Extremely high, given everything it says is accurate.

because everything else is obvious and spelt out.

Being published by a third party does not mean it was also written by a third party or that TM wasn't involved with its creation. The guidebook is bundled with TL and has lore information that do not contradict the series in any way. You are, once again, coping hard because you cannot accept the truth. Kek.

except it was, check the credits at the end.

The actual line says JUST about, aka not the only one. And even the raws leaves room for other characters being able to beat Amaterasu. One of these would be Kiara. Why is that? Because greater universe > the Sun, and there is an explicit statement that says only Buddha can fight Kiara due to being the only one that can counter her seduction hax:






No she doesn't. She cannot control the greater universe and is limited to the Sun.

Through the combination of these three kinds of thoughts and methods the Tachikawa Sect considered the unification of “Dakini = Dainichi Buddha [Vairocana] = Amaterasu Oomikami” to be the ultimate goal.
Namely, they tried to achieve enlightenment by becoming one with the fundamental truths of the universe.
…Uhhh Cas-ko-san, it seems like your followers are pretty wack… is everything gonna be all right…?

here’s a Wikipedia article to help you out

Vairocana - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

She is only stronger in terms of physical stats, which doesn't mean much as she needs her back up to reach Nrvnqsr's level anyway. And again, this same Arcueid you are talking about still lost to her White Len Red Arc manifestation and Wallachia, who are both below Nrvnqsr.

That sounds more like reality warping or marble phantasm. Regardless, "its obvious" that she used it on Nrvnqsr too.

no, as shiki sees the leylines visibly. also, her concept of death is removed when she’s getting back up anyway.

Yes, because she could still use her back up for a bit.

“for a bit” you do realize that once the backup is activated, it doesn’t go off? and I don’t think Nero has the mystic eyes of death, unless you read lunar monarch instead of Tsukihime

 

[Tdjwo]

Ain't no way this argument is still going on Void shiki solo bolos the entire verse anyways. What the hell?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Ain't no way this argument is still going on Void shiki solo bolos the entire verse anyways. What the hell?

Goetia and all around type moon say hello

 

[HyperZero95]

thanks for proving ladder scaling is inconsistent.

The only thing that is inconsistent is your view of the verse.

Nero outright remarks how weak tatari arc is compared to her real self

It's easy to gather from the context of that very quote you sent alone that Nrvnqsr is referring to Arcueid's sanity, not power:

Nrvnqsr: ....... Hmph, already a demon? I wanted to destroy a sane Ancestor. It cannot be helped. It would be absurd to recognize you as my enemy when you are no different than a mere Dead Apostle!

He is just referring to Arcueid being a deranged bloodthirsty demon ruled by her urge to drink blood, much like a Dead Apostle.

Power-wise, this Arcueid is still well above the real restricted Arcueid, as she literally defeated her, among other things.

not to mention other stuff like base sion beating wallachia

That just mean she has improved, since AA takes place after the first MB, where Ciel already told us Sion can grow in combat. This is a non-argument really.

She does? in his own arcade mode.

Cool. I was obviously referring to Arcueid fighting him in her own story, which doesn't happen. No mention of her being able to destroy souls in Roa's story either.

thanks for proving the point that a weaker Nero had Shiki struggling?

I sent you a scene explaining that Nrvnqsr in a specific story route was weaker due to Tatari not waiting until the full moon to summon him. You are now asserting that this applies to a completely different Tatari Nrvnqsr in a different route with the full moon present and with statements from Wallachia going on and on about how powerful he is.

Please, form coherent arguments, or stop replying to me.

Doesn’t say “ant”,but rather footprint, but it’s the same sense of insignificance.

First off, timestamp the part that is relevant to your argument. I don't have the time to watch an entire playthrough just to debunk an incoherent Arcueid fanboy.

Two: This doesn't mean anything. Again, Types and True Ancestors at full power can manipulate the abstract laws governing reality, which makes physicals irrelevant, on top of lacking a concept of Death and having Gaia's back up to increase their stats above their opponents. None of this contradicts DAAs being physically superior to True Ancestors and TM's base physical stats, since they all have abilities that makes physicals irrelevant.

I’m talking about Ortenrosse. he’s the one who ordered nero to come to Japan in the first place.

This must be Remake's lore, as White Wing is never mentioned in anything relevant in Tsukihime, or to have jumped Arcueid while sleeping. He is also equal to Blackmore, who can potentially kill Altrouge, and White Wing himself would be relative enough to Altrouge that she cannot just blink him and take over the opposing faction. So nothing suggests he is inferior to True Ancestors combatively.

same roa who’s weaker than the same Nero who arc beat?

Same Roa who is above Ciel, who defeated Sion more easily than 30% Arcueid.

Dude, you don't seem to understand that TM is not Dragon Ball or some cringe shounen, where people fights with just punches or brick beams. Arcueid used her back up on Nrvnqsr to become a bit stronger and faster than him, on top of MP to create any physical phenomena to use in combat. That would be quite difficult for Nrvnqsr to beat, although not impossible. But the specific instance you mentioned had Arcueid still lacking a concept of Death at night, meaning Nrvnqsr had no way to kill her and was eventually outlasted.

In terms of base physical stats: 30% Arcueid < Ciel < Roa < Nrvnqsr. But with abilities the match ups are very different.

which is why ladder routes are inconsistent, as arc already beat Nero’s ass in one of them

Already addressed this 40 times. Concession accepted.

what is blud yapping about

Yes, good question. What exactly are you trying to say? You didn’t even finish the sentence I quoted, and now, instead of clarifying your point, you’re deflecting. This has turned the entire point into a dead end because I still have no idea what you were actually trying to convey.

red arc is originated from a piece of the actual arcs bloodlust. yet you say she’s stronger. pick a stance

She is weaker than the real Red Arcueid due to lacking her abstract reality warping. She is still stronger than the real restricted Arcueid, who is fodder in comparison to her 100% self. There is no issue.

Ciel makes comments about the fight.

THEIR fight. Not Arcueid's and Archetype's fight, which could only happen in a mental plane, as they share the same physical body. Even if you disregard that, AE and Arc fought in a DIFFERENT location where Ciel was, so how could she comment on anything? This is common sense dude. Hilarious.

regardless, we know from Tsukihime that the stronger soul/will would be the one in control. and you’re telling me base arcueid is superior in that front?

In terms of willpower? Sure. Willpower does not equate to raw power lmao. Araya's will is the strongest in the verse and can overcome the collective will of 6 billions of people one by one, yet he still cannot beat Alaya due to not having mastered Stillness yet at the time of KnK. Void already stated that she is bound to Shiki's will due to being the body and Shiki being the mind. Same applies to AE and Arcueid, as Archetype is the Origin personality of Arcueid.

Yet arayas punch who was hyped to break concrete would smash her bones in

I already explained the context of this statement twice, concession accepted.

, and knife ryougi is explicitly slower than fujinos sight.

What? She is explicitly faster, as she avoided her distortion multiple times. She is just not outright capable of getting close and kill Asagami before she can look at her once again. But given that Ryougi was not at full power at the time and Asagami is still an Origin awakened character that surpassess most of the verse, that's forgivable.

Ryougi at full power dismembered Lio (Who should be around Asagami's general league) faster than he could comprehend despite being close to death and drugged. She then kills your beloved Archetype Earth in combat.

Yet it’s posed as an alternate outcome to begin with.

No it's not. Already explained it. Concession accepted.

like I said earlier, very few arcade modes have these alternate arcade exclusive loss
quotes.

I already explained this. This specific one being exclusive does not change the fact that it outright contradict the story and is not supposed to be an alternate outcome in the first place.

also, are the quotes with ries and ciel arcade exclusive, or just normal quotes.

I don't know and I don't care. All it's needed is that they make no sense and contradict the story, just like Tohno's.

regardless,ries and ciel are far stronger than ryougi anyway, so this would be an infinitely better take, although still horribly wrong

Ciel (In her powered state no less) explicitly struggled/lost to people that Ryougi stomped (Nrvnqsr, Tohno and Archetype). My take is concretely backed up by the series and I brought up scans for each and everyone of my points. The only horrible take is the one I'm replying to.

“it’s a metaphor”, so the usual cope. Tohno doesn’t even talk metaphorically like that to begin with.

You dismissed the entire context around the conversation that I outlined in my previous post. Concession accepted. Oh, and yes, Tohno does talk like that, like when he said "he'll sing Wallachia's last requiem" as a metaphor for killing him.

“outrageous agenda”

has base ryougi win against the strongest existence of the planet she originates from

I have the avatar of Akasha and the strongest Origin awakened being (Who are explicit outliers that surpass most of the verse, drawing their immense power from the mind, which goes beyond the natural limits of the body) ranked above the avatar of a couple of celestial bodies and an Origin awakened being with an Origin that is inferior to Ryougi's. Yes, that's correct.

ignores the fact that a man who explicitly overpowers this version is equal to alba

I already explained this. Please read my posts.
The term "abilities" can mean different things depending on the context. In this case, it's clear that the statement isn't referring to physical stats or hand-to-hand combat skills. How do we know this? Because Araya is explicitly described as being above everyone in the modern era in terms of physical combat, which would include Aoko, who is physically close to 100% Arcueid already due to her beating Roa:

"Thus, the only way for Araya to eliminate Touko was through close combat. Araya was a man who had survived tumultuous times. In physical combat, there was no one in the modern era who could stand against him." - Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 5

This is further supported by Araya's feats, such as speedblitzing Ryougi and having a stronger Origin awakening than Nanaya Shiki and Kishima Kouma. In contrast, Alba couldn't even blitz Touko, and Araya’s remotely controlled doll, operating at a fraction of his true power, performed better against her than Alba did.

The quote in question also isn't referring to their skillsets, as that comparison would be illogical. Alba is primarily a ranged fighter, relying on high-speed conflagrations, while Araya is a close combatant who uses bounded fields to make himself invincible. These bounded fields are conceptual constructs that enforce his soul's nature on the environment, meaning they don't have "attack power" in the traditional sense, they impose stasis and reverse any physical damage done to Araya. The novel even emphasizes that neither Touko nor Araya are magic "destroyers" like Alba and operate on a different level. Araya's main method of defeating opponents is through hand-to-hand combat, which is unequivocally stated to be beyond Alba's capabilities.

So, what does the quote mean by "abilities"? Given the context, it's clear that Araya's close combat abilities surpass Alba's, and his magecraft focuses on enforcing specific effects on reality rather than obliterating matter like Alba's flames. There’s no area where they are genuinely comparable. Therefore, the only way for the quote to make sense is if it refers to their proficiency with their respective magecraft. Alba being just as skilled with his flames as Araya is with his bounded fields. However, this ultimately doesn’t mean much. If a statement is already vague and blatantly contradicted by feats, with more detailed and clear-cut statements aligning with those feats, it's clear the latter holds more weight. Based on all available information, Araya would finger flick Alba.

,who is compared to kayneth outside of his ward.

This is a statement from Nasu, who I've repeatedly pointed out has a history of contradicting both his own stories and other interview statements. Even Nasu himself and his staff have acknowledged that he's often unreliable and prone to making contradictory claims. I’ve also linked a thread that fully explains why his word of God statements are irrelevant. Furthermore, the source material and guidebooks take precedence over external interview statements that aren’t even consistent with each other.

For example, if Nasu were to say that Roa is a transgender werewolf, it would be an invalid, nonsensical statement because nothing in his works supports that idea. Accepting such a contradictory statement would essentially turn the established universe into fanfiction to justify it. Consider Akira Toriyama forgetting that SS3 existed: did that mean the form stopped existing? Of course not. It was just an error. Similarly, if Nasu claims that 2+2 equals 8, and I point out that he’s wrong, then he is wrong because he’s misusing logic.

Moreover, we know that Kayneth is below Servants, who passively gets disintegrated by a fraction of Ryougi's essence, and were slaughtered in the hundreds by a restricted Shiki in the Moon Cell. So we already know he is not touching Shiki in any capacity.

meaning touko and alba would absolutely destroy her.

Touko literally hired Shiki as a replacement for Beowulf due to how strong she was. Alba gets speedblitzed and erased. Kayneth dies by Shiki flexing her muscles in his general direction.

ignores the fact that it’s a dream route to begin with
pick one

Bro, I explained this 40 times, you just ignore it everytime and keeps repeating yourself. The "dream" is merely referring to the dream-like nature of Tatari, which rewrote the real world for that one night and would revert things back to normal the next day. Ryougi even noted everyone in her town disappeared. This is because everyone that is either not relevant or is capable of resisting Osiris' reality warping (Like Ryougi herself) wasn't sent inside the reality marble. It still happened. Deal with it.

no, you didn’t

"No" is not an argument. Your concession is accepted. Bring me chocolates.

because everything else is obvious and spelt out.

Yes, and so is Ryougi being at least comparable, if not superior, to Archetype Earth.

except it was, check the credits at the end.

Through the combination of these three kinds of thoughts and methods the Tachikawa Sect considered the unification of “Dakini = Dainichi Buddha [Vairocana] = Amaterasu Oomikami” to be the ultimate goal.
Namely, they tried to achieve enlightenment by becoming one with the fundamental truths of the universe.
…Uhhh Cas-ko-san, it seems like your followers are pretty wack… is everything gonna be all right…?

here’s a Wikipedia article to help you out

Wait, this is Grand Order faggotry. Irrelevant to the older canon, since Extella explicitly rewrote the Extraverse to fit with GO. In the older canon, Buddha is explicitly above that overwanked fox.

no, as shiki sees the leylines visibly. also, her concept of death is removed when she’s getting back up anyway.

Ok? Does not change the point, lmao.

“for a bit” you do realize that once the backup is activated, it doesn’t go off?

It does in her weakened state, since she can only keep it up for a limited amount of time until her stamina runs out.

unless you read lunar monarch instead of Tsukihime

Certainly better than your Lunar Waifu: The Far Side of the human brain.

Dude, it has been more than a week and none of you or anyone else in your wank circle combined has brought up any valid argument. Just stop and take the L like a man.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

ORT negs that fodder void shiki

 

[HyperZero95]

Goetia

The Zelretch victim? Ouch.

and all around type moon say hello

That's not a character lol.

 

[HyperZero95]

ORT negs that fodder void shiki

Get him past normal Ryougi, who beat Archetype Earth.

 

[Wankbreaker]

ORT negs that fodder void shiki

crystallized and eaten in under a second

 

[Wankbreaker]

The Zelretch victim? Ouch.

that explicitly vaporized her,yea
any version of shiki would be a zelretch victim

That's not a character lol.

still the same work where ryougi says voids wishgranting and such is cute compared to a god, and that she indirectly admits that the power gap is so large between them, that it seems like arc has no limits

 

[Wankbreaker]

Get him past normal Ryougi, who beat Archetype Earth.

replying to the rest but

Through the combination of these three kinds of thoughts and methods the Tachikawa Sect considered the unification of “Dakini = Dainichi Buddha [Vairocana] = Amaterasu Oomikami” to be the ultimate goal.
Namely, they tried to achieve enlightenment by becoming one with the fundamental truths of the universe.
…Uhhh Cas-ko-san, it seems like your followers are pretty wack… is everything gonna be all right…?

this is from one of the extra materials on the shingon tachikawa sect, which is not relevant to FGO in any capacity

 

[Huesito88]

that explicitly vaporized her,yea
any version of shiki would be a zelretch victim


still the same work where ryougi says voids wishgranting and such is cute compared to a god, and that she indirectly admits that the power gap is so large between them, that it seems like arc has no limits

So how weak is Shiki then?

 

[HyperZero95]

that explicitly vaporized her,yea
any version of shiki would be a zelretch victim

GO Ryougi is a rewritten version that contradicts her KnK self, with GO and the modern TM series being completely incompatible with the older series. I have already been over this. GO Ryougi does not care about Mikiya being dead and follows the shitty MF lore where she had a society brainwash about ******** out kids for no reason. With Void being the complete opposite of her KnK self, who cannot deviate due to being an Origin personality.

The original Ryougi killed Archetype Earth, who is above Type Moon, who barely lost to Zelretch. Ouch.

still the same work where ryougi says voids wishgranting and such is cute compared to a god, and that she indirectly admits that the power gap is so large between them, that it seems like arc has no limits

Yes, and where Ryougi is asked if she likes the Fate universe, or where funny haha illogical shit happens because it's a parody work akin to Carnival Phantasm.

Get lost Neco. You will forever take Ls otherwise.

 

[HyperZero95]

So how weak is Shiki then?

Ant level according to Neco.

 

[Wankbreaker]

GO Ryougi is a rewritten version that contradicts her KnK self, with GO and the modern TM series being completely incompatible with the older series. I have already been over this. GO Ryougi does not care about Mikiya being dead and follows the shitty MF lore where she had a society brainwash about ******** out kids for no reason. With Void being the complete opposite of her KnK self, who cannot deviate due to being an Original personality.

The original Ryougi killed Archetype Earth, who is above Type Moon, who barely lost to Zelretch. Ouch.

regardless of my views on this, this site uses pretty much every work for scaling, to my knowledge. don’t like it? idk complain to the staff or whatever

Yes, and where Ryougi is asked if she likes the Fate universe, or where funny haha illogical shit happens because it's a parody work akin to Carnival Phantasm.

Get lost Neco. You will forever take Ls otherwise.

acting like this doesn’t happen in melty blood is crazy
regardless, here’s a definition:

Metafiction is a literary style that draws attention to its own narrative structure and the process of its creation. It often involves a self-aware narrator or characters who comment on the story and their place in it, and can appear in many forms of media, including novels, short stories, plays, video games, film, and television.

 

[Wankbreaker]

also this site uses servant universe for scaling, so lol