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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

if you have a rebuttal to aog mages living alongside the root, using it directly for energy, and modern mages trying to get the understanding AOG mages had back, please tell me. you can’t live “alongside” something with negative theology
You're the only one making such a claim. It's been stated that nobody ever succeeded in reaching the root cuz there was literally NO COMING BACK!!!
 
You're the only one making such a claim. It's been stated that nobody ever succeeded in reaching the root cuz there was literally NO COMING BACK!!!
aoko specified that was for a “human-ranked soul”

still doesn’t address anything though
 
He doesn't have the same origin as Shiki. Shikis origin is "Emptiness". Not to be mistakent with "Nothingness"
they’re both described in the same kanji. any difference in English is the flavor of the translator in question
 
Prove that. Literally talking about every single being.


「蒼崎。一人も生還者がいないって、どういう事だ?」


「根源に触れて、帰ってきた者は一人もいないの。世界規模でね。触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」



人間程度の魂 means"human level/ranked soul."
 
they’re both described in the same kanji. any difference in English is the flavor of the translator in question
Lol. Why are you lying out of your ass? Even the Type-Moon wiki that's inconsistent asf realizes the difference.
Fujino Asagami: Nothingness (虚無, Kyomu?)
Shiki Ryougi: Emptiness (空, Kara?)
Ryo8gi Shiki is the only character ever stated to have the origin of literal "Emptiness." Not to be confused with "Nothingness."
 
Lol. Why are you lying out of your ass? Even the Type-Moon wiki that's inconsistent asf realizes the difference.

Ryo8gi Shiki is the only character ever stated to have the origin of literal "Emptiness." Not to be confused with "Nothingness."
the type-moon wiki



now, to send you to the actual novel.

「......わたしの起源は虚無だから、その肉体を持つ式は死が視える。二年間――昏睡状態で外界を見る こともできず、ただ両儀式という虚無を見つめ続けてきた式は、死の手触りを知ってしまったから 。

 式はね、ずっと根源の渦と呼ばれる海に浮いていたのよ。ただひとり、「 」のなかで式というカタチをもっ て」

kanji is 虚無
 
「蒼崎。一人も生還者がいないって、どういう事だ?」


「根源に触れて、帰ってきた者は一人もいないの。世界規模でね。触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」



人間程度の魂 means"human level/ranked soul."
Can you even read between the lines and understand basic contexts?
This is the translation;
"Aozaki. What do you mean, not a single person has returned alive?"
"No one has ever come back from touching the origin. On a global scale. If you touch it, you instantly disappear. If it's a human-sized soul, the moment you touch it, you either revert to your original state, or are absorbed into the origin."
It's saying that ANYONE that touches the root disappears as no one has ever come back from it. It doesn't matter who you are. No one even knows if they succeeded in reaching it lol. But for those with "human-sized souls,"(whatever tf that means) not only do they disappear, but they also revert to their original state or they become absorbed into the root.

This is not hard to understand.
 
Can you even read between the lines and understand basic contexts?
This is the translation;

It's saying that ANYONE that touches the root disappears as no one has ever come back from it. It doesn't matter who you are. No one even knows if they succeeded in reaching it lol. But for those with "human-sized souls,"(whatever tf that means) not only do they disappear, but they also revert to their original state or they become absorbed into the root.

This is not hard to understand.
Zepia survived. araya is stated to be able to survive in some form. angras unlimited raise dead allows bazett and himself to pass through it to revive. also, it doesn’t say or, it says and.

also, it’s human-level/ranked,not size. not sure if you’re using a tl tool,but im correcting you on this.
and again, mahoyo takes place after the age of gods, so this is a non argument to the main issue.
 
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now, to send you to the actual novel.

「......わたしの起源は虚無だから、その肉体を持つ式は死が視える。二年間――昏睡状態で外界を見る こともできず、ただ両儀式という虚無を見つめ続けてきた式は、死の手触りを知ってしまったから 。

 式はね、ずっと根源の渦と呼ばれる海に浮いていたのよ。ただひとり、「 」のなかで式というカタチをもっ て」

kanji is 虚無

Yup, it's sometimes called nothingness. Doesn't make it exactly that as we know both Nothingness and Emptiness can be intertwined. It's not hard to grasp. Shikis origin is directly related to the Root itself which is Kara/Emptiness. Heck, it even follows the theme of Kara no Kyoukai's "Boundary of Emptiness."

And also, a person's origin is the most fundamental aspect of their existence. So how in the world would Angra Mainyu have an origin of the root itself? Makes absolutely no sense. This was never stated or implied.
 
So how in the world would Angra Mainyu have an origin of the root itself? Makes absolutely no sense. This was never stated or implied.
Because he's super awesome and cool. (He's my favorite TM character) "Because I said so" is perfectly valid reasoning for me to scale Angoat Mainyu to Outer. /j
 
Yup, it's sometimes called nothingness. Doesn't make it exactly that as we know both Nothingness and Emptiness can be intertwined. It's not hard to grasp. Shikis origin is directly related to the Root itself which is Kara/Emptiness. Heck, it even follows the theme of Kara no Kyoukai's "Boundary of Emptiness."
doesn’t use the character “空”, so therefore it is not “kara”,but “kyomu” very simple to understand.
And also, a person's origin is the most fundamental aspect of their existence. So how in the world would Angra Mainyu have an origin of the root itself? Makes absolutely no sense. This was never stated or implied.


IMG_3828.png

he says something closer to “my nature is” instead of “my element is” in the voice acting, but HA raws are a pain to find.

the rest is already explained in other threads here.
 
all of these abilities have easily exploitable limits. MEODP needs to be at close range. Kurogiri cannot actually use it for combat.

You are not addressing the argument at all. Fact is, those abilities are far superior to Distortion. MEoDP applies the concept of Death by triggering the pre-determined end of something, UL speaks to the true name of things making it impossible to resist its commands, etc.

Asagami uses distortion? Ryougi kills it. God's Word tells her to stand down or outright alters reality to where her distortion do not affect him. Touko's projection machine adapts to it like how it adapted to Alba's flames, etc. Asagami also has clear limits in what she is able to affect with Distortion. She is powerless against true abstract abilities. Her abilities are incredibly strong and unmatched when it comes to pure numerical comparisons, but, as the novel noted, even the infinity of space is powerless before the abstract acting as the foundation for the existence of space (Real numbers) as a whole.

each of these characters would get twisted. also the statement just says foundation, doesn’t imply a literal physical thing, especially since her distortions have no form.

While Asagami’s distortions are immaterial, they produce physical effects and are confined to the physical realm. They can't touch the abstract or conceptual. UL, Ryougi’s MEoDP, and Araya's barriers are all noted to interact with formless, conceptual things, something Distortion simply can't do. It’s limited to bending physical substances, whereas these other abilities operate on a level that transcends the material, making them inherently superior.

Ah, and no, Ryougi began evolving her eyes in Paradox Spiral to the point where she could destroy the abstract laws governing Araya's dimension. Abstract laws, like the laws of physics, don't physically exist in space; they are non-local truths that govern how reality works. Since these laws can't be touched or located in space, the only way for Ryougi to destroy them would be to think them away, as abstract concepts can only be interacted with mentally. We already know that MEoDP can operate without necessarily needing actual physical contact, as seen with Balor. I already told you this. Ryougi has a non-local variation of MEoDP from Chapter 5 onwards that allows her to erase abstract concepts with her thoughts as opposed to physically striking lines or points. That would be why she could kill Archetype in AA, as that would require her to use her MEoDP to erase her reality warping abilities.

also wow, that would really help araya against toukos random box demon, wouldn’t it?

Uh, yes, actually. That’s exactly how Araya's barriers work, as I’ve pointed out with direct quotes from the novel. I’m not sure why you’re treating this as something unexpected.

Touko's demon being able to beat Araya...Is just a feat for the demon. Her projection machine was already non-physical and capable of adapting to many different forms of attack. The sealed box demon is even greater and can potentially consume Araya's apartment complex, which would include its infinite dimension.

you know you can’t back up your ridiculous claims

If that's the fantasies you entertain yourself with, then go ahead.

roa would be the strongest character ever if this was true ,but he actually gets weaker.

either way, you’re applying 2 very different situations and equalizing them. also if this was true, arayas goal would be complete in all timelines, yet archetype says there’s a margin to the ending, and it isn’t clear.

You talk about me being unable to back up my claims, but this is the 4th time you have refused to address the entirety of my explanation about Stillness and fundamentally misunderstood the point. Roa's situation is entirely different. He actually dies and is reborn, with his information degrading each time it cycles out and transfers into a new host. This isn’t comparable to existing within Akasha with your mind and self-awareness intact, which allows for the direct perception of abstract concepts and the potential to enact them using special powers tied to your Origin. Even then, Roa gained some abilities, like his Mystic Eyes "of Life", from his repeated reincarnations, but his knowledge and power degrade with each cycle, requiring time to recover. His power also depends heavily on his Origin and what aspects of Akasha he’s connected to, which we don't fully understand. Roa’s focus is on life, but even with that, he needs time to regain his full abilities.

Araya, on the other hand, explicitly learns and evolves over time as he gains a deeper understanding of reality. He reaches the point where he can create new realities and establish their laws. Given that he achieved this through understanding the material world, it’s logical that his versatility would drastically increase once he begins to perceive the abstract world directly.

And no, Melty Blood points out how all timelines leads to humanity's destruction. That was Wallachia's entire goal: To avoid this fate of destruction. However he found it impossible, saying the more you try, the more horrible humanity's end will be. And Arcueid actually tells him that their end is inevitable. So yeah.
 
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Also, LOL at Angra having the same Origin as Shiki. Stop butchering KnK with your fanfiction, please.

And before you whine about anything:

Right? By making Shiki confront murderers who held concepts totally opposite to her own, you made Shiki realise her own nature. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

You would have felt it. That those girls were comrades, yet murderers whose natures conflicted with Ryougi Shiki."
Shocked to the core, Shiki --- was watching the approaching darkness as it talked to her.
Watching, was all she could do.
"I failed 2 years ago. That person was too different. What was needed were those who had diverged from the same 'origin'.
That's right. Be happy, Ryougi Shiki. Those two were sacrifices that I prepared for you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Asagami and Kirie were similar, but actually completely different overall from Shiki. Thei Origin is not the actual abstract nothingness corresponding to Akasha. Kirie's corresponds to a detached mental state, while Asagami's corresponds to a physical void where her interaction with others in space is distorted.

Like, if they actually had Shiki's same Origin, Araya would have used them to complete his plan, don't you think? Lmao.
 
do NOT let hyperzero touch the pages, he’s going to make tier 0 araya and shiki

If by Tier 0 you mean backed by the boundless source tier (Haven't really kept up with the tiering system stuff), MEoDP is Tier 0 by its very nature, lol.

As for Araya, I backed it up with specific evidence from the source material. In fact, I invite others consulting the thread to read it:

Alright, so, as you know, Araya's Origin is Stillness/Suspension. It makes him specialized in equilibrium/balance and boundaries/division:

Those who awaken to their origin are bound by their origin. I see. My impulse was Stillness" The magus said this, not to anyone, but in irony. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This Origin is also beyond Death's reach, as it represents the ultimate equilibrium and cessation of motion. Because of this, Stillness is considered "already dead" and "stopped", which makes it logically unable to be killed:

The mage's discourse continues."As a reference, I do not die. My origin is 'suspension'. Someone who has woken to their origin becomes ruled by that origin itself. Someone who has already stopped - how can you kill him?" Shiki doesn't reply. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Ryougi could only kill Araya's physical body. Since, unlike his essence, it still participated in reality and had a faint thread that allowed its interaction with space-time:

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
His Soul, however, has achieved true immortality. Even after Shiki killed his last spare body, both him and Touko noted that he will simply wait into Akasha until he is cycled back into the material world in the next generation:

"The backup bodies? None. If we meet again, it'll be in the next generation," he said.
"There won't be any mages by then. No meeting again. You'll end up alone, until the end.
Yet, you're still not giving up?" she asked.
"Of course not. I don't acknowledge defeat," he replied. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This is important, because Death is one of the most fundamental principles in TM, to the point that Void Shiki equated it with Akasha:

—I am a hollow container which only gazes inward, which communes solely with death - in other words with what Magi call the "Root", though I see no value in it whatsoever. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
It can kill "all things without exceptions" by looking at the floor-plan of reality, and is the power that aligns the most with Ryougi's nature, as her Origin wishes for the death of all creation:

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.
—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
Furthermore, during their final conversation, Touko described Araya's Origin as "Zero" (Having no clear end or beginning) and noted that his desire was "Nothingness", bringing about a perfect realm of Death:

"Forgot your reason, did you? Your desire is nothingness, and even your origin is zero. So, what are you exactly?" she asked. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
The gathered disciples each boasted about completing their magical theories and their future glory. But Araya alone replied, "I desire nothing." The disciples laughed at him, considering him a man without ambition, but Touko couldn't bring herself to laugh.
... The feeling Touko experienced at that time was fear.
Araya didn't say he desired nothing because he lacked ambition. It was that he truly desired nothing. He didn't even desire his own existence in this world. Araya Souren longed for a perfect realm of death. That's why his desire was to desire nothing.
A man who hated humanity to the point of building a shell to protect himself. Call it lack of ambition if you want. This man detested humanity's contradictions, rejecting even the most trivial happiness. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This means that Araya is fundamentally empty at his core, and his desire mirrors Void's desire in bringing about the death of all creation. In fact, Paradox Spiral features a noticeable Yin-Yang symbolic representation of him and Ryougi:

No Caption Provided
Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.

So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.

Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:

One day, while I was absorbed in making the doll that was my goal, I met that man. Someone who possessed a unique personal history, like originally being a Tamil priest. He was a hellish man. His strong will and tempered shell, it was like an eternally burning drive for achievement.
... Hellish. What I mean by saying that, Kokuto, is that if the idea of Hell was to gain a will and take the form of a man, my hypothesis is that it would be something like him. To the degree that he couldn't accept others, he was just absorbing misery. His ability as a mage was full of flaws, but his strong ego surpassed everything.
--- It was a coarse guy like that who I fell for." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

A living hell that had collected the deaths of various humans. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
He has also been outright compared to Yama:

"Hmph. Do you like things that are one that much, Araya? Light and darkness weren't divided because they had to oppose each other, but because that had the potential for containing the greatest number of things. Everything is lonely if it's by itself. That is everything tries to multiply. You were never able to forgive that. Investigating the various deaths of humans, and making that your own by researching those lives. You would probably take even my death and make it into a piece of knowledge about the life and death of a human called Aozaki Touko to be stored away in the corner of your brain. You mean to figure out the value of a human that way, but doing that is the role of Yanma. As a human yourself, all you can do is to continue existing in a hell that keeps sucking in deaths." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Yama is the God of the underworld and the ruler of Hell:

In Buddhism, Yama is the name of the very first human to die, who then became the king of hell. He is also called Enma Dai-O. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Judgment of Yama [Technique]
This comparison makes sense once you consider Araya's role in recording Death and being able to read someone's Origin, deciding their worth. This parallels Yama's role in keeping watch over the cycle of Death and Rebirth and dealing out judgement and karmic retribution. This is further backed up by Kishima Kouma referencing Araya in MB Act Cadenza:

No Caption Provided
Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:

Kishima Kouma’s Arc Drive.
Though it bears a striking resemblance to Tohno Akiha’s Arc Drive, the nuance is completely different. In Akiha’s case, the opponent is merely mistaking the feeling of having their heat stolen as a burning sensation, while in Kouma’s case both they and the surrounding environment are actually being consumed by hellfire.
The name Jambudvīpa comes from Buddhism. It is the southernmost of the four island-continents surrounding Mount Sumeru in the Desire realm Kāmadhātu, and the place where humans live. Basically, another name for Sahā-lokadhātu, the endurance world. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Jambudvīpa Inferno [Technique]
With his Last Arc being named after Yama himself at that:

Kishima Kouma’s Last Arc.
Triggered by an aerial counter. After it starts, Kouma flies to the edge of the screen, then hits the opponent with a powerful jumping kick. There are two different things that he might yell out at this point, but one of them is extremely rare.
In Buddhism, Yama is the name of the very first human to die, who then became the king of hell. He is also called Enma Dai-O. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Judgment of Yama [Technique]
If we go back to Red Demon God, Kiri Nanaya realized that he couldn't match up to Kishima, who innately possessed "Death" within him. Kiri, despite his talent and fascination with killing, could only ultimately pursue Death, without actually achieving it. The only thing that could match Kouma would be something born broken, like him, a "master of Death." :

No Caption Provided
This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:

The most powerful mystic eyes are those which are possessed from birth. Things like Shiki's mystic eyes that can see the death of things, or mystic eyes that can turn someone to stone with a glance, are "psychic abilities" that cannot be reenacted even with sorcery. Mystic eyes can be ranked by color. Normal mystic eyes shine red or green. Strong ones glow a luminous gold. And eyes that fall in the realm of gods glimmer with multiple colors, like jewels or rainbows. By the way, though Akiha's "Origami" bears a striking resemblance to mystic eyes, it is actually a kind of curse. And despite Shiki's eyes being called the "mystic eyes" of death perception, strictly speaking they are a psychic ability – specifically, the "pure eyes" possessed by saints and holy men. -Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes [Unusual talent], p.188
And Tohno was actually stated to have MEoDP as a natural ability, with his near death accident being merely the trigger for it:

"Just as I suspected. You had the latent ability, but that must have been the trigger... The Mystic Eyesof Death Perception, huh. Yes, with those, you could definitely kill even me."- Tsukihime- Near Side: Arcueid's route - 3/ The Black Beast I
Add the fact that the Nanaya personality only showed up after Tohno's pseudo death, him describing himself as the "guiding principle" of Tohno's body and as his "foundation", and Tohno being able to surpass the limits of his body when being guided by his mind and killing instincts, and it's clear that Tohno (And by extension Kouma) are Origin awakened beings.

Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:

No Caption Provided
Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."

This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:

"How amusing for Agrippa's direct descendant to be wallowing in the religion of the Jews. That's why you still haven't understood the true nature of this place. Hell? That kind of thing exists somewhere on this Earth at this very moment. If you want to see murder on a scale that the human mind cannot comprehend, go to a battlefield. If you wish to see humans dying on a scale you could never believe, just go to any starving nation. Something like this isn't hell. It's merely purgatory, this."
And she puts her bag down upon the floor.
Tock. A dry sound.
"A place where eternally tormented souls who committed small crimes and cannot go to heaven or hell reside. That is the true identity of this place. A closed loop where the torture isn't carried out to fulfill some purpose, but where the whole purpose is to torture. In something like this, there isn't any thaumatergical effect --- or at least, not for a outsider like you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
So Araya is also a "Master of Death" like Kishima and Tohno/Nanaya, but he is the most superior variation of such a title, being the very embodiment of suffering and judgement. He is a static constant that controls the very framework under which both Death and Destruction operates.

Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:

Although Araya is average as a magus, his talents relating to Bound Field construction is exceptional.
A bound field divides what is inside from the outside. In order to construct a complete world from his own body, first Araya must complete himself.
Araya, who has no exceptional talents, is able to become a first-class bound field master by completing himself through the accumulation of ages and sheer determination.
That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet:
Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
They are described as "worlds" contructed from his body/Origin. They are conceptual constructs that casts stasis, suppression, existential dread, reverse physical damage and distort perception to make Araya impossible to sense. They are, for all intents and purposes, actual "worlds" separating Araya Souren from the outside, untouched by conventional rules and only imposing Araya's own rules and will upon anything that enters their domain. They are even called after the six heavenly realms in Buddhism:

"Barrier: Six Realms Boundary" - Character introduction from Tsukihime's Fouth Character Poll
Meaning that they symbolize Araya's ability to control and impose judgement on all of creation and its souls, just on a very localized scale.

Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:

Although Araya is average as a magus, his talents relating to Bound Field construction is exceptional.
A bound field divides what is inside from the outside. In order to construct a complete world from his own body, first Araya must complete himself.
Araya, who has no exceptional talents, is able to become a first-class bound field master by completing himself through the accumulation of ages and sheer determination.
That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
This makes perfect sense if you look at other Origin awakened characters: The more they align with their true nature or gain knowledge about their Origin, the more powerful and versatile they become. By absorbing death and suffering as an immortal monster transferring his soul from body to body, and studying the origin and soul, Araya acted as a fundamental constant mirroring the static suffering of Hell and the role "cosmic" judge of Yama. This, overtime, resulted into Araya gaining an understanding of the cycle of transition and the fundamental truths governing existence. This understanding eventually manifested as his bounded fields, as the most basic pratical application of his Origin powers. It allowed Araya to exert his understanding of suffering and reality onto the external world.

This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:

Within this building that repeats the spiral of daily life, the original form of all the deaths that humans experience is swirling around. The records that the physical body called Araya Souren contained until now, this building has succeeded him as their container. This place was him, his will itself.
... So, that meant that she was inside his body.
Touko observed the atmosphere filling the lobby as she muttered to herself. The strained air wasn't for Araya's benefit. Rather, it was the soundless hatred of all the residents who had been murdered by this building.
This amount of hatred that threatens to crush even her, day by day, Araya keeps expanding it. To borrow his words it wasn't the amount he was increasing but the quality. Since in the end, all those hundreds of deaths were but one identical way of dying.
Murder born from love, in other words family, lover, mother, father, child.
Murder born of hatred, in other words family, lover, friend, upperclassman, stranger.
Various ways of dying for various reasons.
Repeated everyday, a conclusion that keeps getting clearer.
--- Death, becoming denser.
This building is a spell. An altar constructed to solidify Araya Soren's will. In order to carry out magecraft of a grand scale you needed not only an incantation and your own prana, but also the sacrifice of other lives and the strength of the land itself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
A temple of Taiji. It could be called the artificial manifestation of the inner landscape of Araya Souren, who did not have a Reality Marble. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
"Wait, Araya. I have one question. The original purpose of this building was to contain the Taiji, right? To manifest the Taiji?"
〝Indeed. I created this pocket dimension to completely isolate Ryougi Shiki from the outside world. All the other features are secondary." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This building not only took over Araya's role as an Hell that recorded Death and suffering in a closed loop, but it was also a temple of the Taiji, representing duality and balance. It also acted as a separate world untouched by natural physical laws:

A twisted dimension of this level should be completely separated from the physical laws of the outside world. Preparations for opening the path were finished long ago, Aozaki." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Ah, I see, this building was a kind of magic after all! It's a closed world created to capture Shiki and ensure that neither the Association, nor I, nor the world, become aware of it—a cage, in other words. If someone like you appears with the intent to kill Shiki, the world will surely act as a deterrent. This otherworld was made to conceal the fact that Shiki is imprisoned. That much is fine. It's all perfectly executed up to that point. But it's ironic, isn't it, Araya? You've made a colossal mistake in the end." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
The building even reached True Magic:

This building is a spell. An altar constructed to solidify Araya Soren's will. In order to carry out magecraft of a grand scale you needed not only an incantation and your own prana, but also the sacrifice of other lives and the strength of the land itself.
By constructing a magical temple in the present day, Araya is attempting to carry out magecraft of an even greater scale.
No, it wasn't magecraft. A mystery that used a twisted dimension of this level was already no longer on the level of magecraft.
This was --- that was right, a mystery of a province unreachable with today's knowledge. There was no doubt that this was an act of absolute power that human hands could not reach, magic. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This, once again, proves the importance of Araya's Origin, as his inner landscapes qualifies for True Magic. We also know that it represents Taiji, further expanding into his role as a cosmic judge bringing balance into the world:

Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory. It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji
The building was structured by starting to replicate the 64 possible types of Death, which represents all the possible interplay of fundamental forces:

The important thing is not the amount of deaths. It's the quality of the deaths. If you approach the origin, the ways of dying become surprisingly well-defined. By dissecting the road to death, I determined that there are 64 different methods of dying. The ones who are gathered here are people who die in everyone of those 64 ways. In other words, they are a miniature copy of the world. I experience their suffering, and engrave it into my heart. In order that I may soon simplify that from [insert here] ([insert here]: Eight divination tools drawn in the Chinese Book of Divination [insert here 8 types]. It is said that the first emperor of China created them after observing the heavens) to [insert here] ([insert here]: The four symbols of Yin-Yang. Formed by the merging of Yin and Yang there are four the manifestations called [insert here 4]), so that I may reach Yangyi." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
I have created a world within which a day is completed. However it can't become a Yangyi just because life and death are next to each other. If it isn't the life and death of the same people, it is lacking as a place to sacrifice you. It's incomplete as a spiral where you come to life after you die. If the condition is for them to be incompatible while mixing with each other, there's no solution but to connect the two. Therefore, in the Yin I prepared their corpses, and in the Yang I prepared their daily lives."
"Ha, then this side is the corpse storage, and that side is their daily life? You are sure taking a lot of care with useless things, there's no meaning to something like that."
"--- I believe I already said that there was meaning.
And then the man spotted the youth standing like a block of wood behind Shiki.
Enjoh Tomoe is still frozen after hearing the name Araya Soren.
"Yes, nothing like a reason exists. Even from the beginning it's impossible for a human to exist with two attributes at once. The dead and the living cannot exist together. In this paradoxical world there is no meaning that an individual can grasp." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This eventually allowed Araya to trace from this 64 hexagrams to the 8 Trigrams (The fundamental building blocks for the 64 hexagrams), then the 4 phenomena of Yin-Yang theory, and finally Yin-Yang itself (The Ryougi), represented by the building's two halves containing activity/life and stillness/death. The complex on itself could have then gone even further and opened a path to the One. Araya only refrained due to the Counterforce's interference:

"--- Are you trying to open the road to the origin?
But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."
"--- The Counter Force is already acting. The fact that you are in this city. The man who came to rob an empty house for no reason, as if he was possessed by something. The woman who was assaulted and killed on this road that has never known such things in the past. I tried this hard to hide my activities, but the Counter Force has already acted three times.
But that is all. I will not be going any closer to the origin. The many failures I have experienced will not go to waste. There was a time when I didn't know of the power called the Counter Force and tried to open a path, but I couldn't fool its eyes. One time I attempted this with a way to overthrow the Counter Force itself, but it always appeared with strength greater that any I could bring to bear.
There is only one conclusion. I do not have the ability."
For the first time --- the voice carries a sound which is close to emotion. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
To sum it up, the complex has the same function of Araya's barriers to separate the inside from the outside, suspend conventional rules, enforcing Araya's own will and record and manage the cycle of life and death, but on a far larger scale. The building also encapsulated every possible interaction between the fundamental forces of Yin and Yang, acting as a microcosm of creation. This enhanced Araya's understanding of reality, on top of him gaining an understanding of how to manipulate spatial boundaries by merging his body with the structure of the building:

The man looks at the woman below him. With just that, the air in the lobby changed dramatically.
Was this what they meant when they said "the air froze over"?
The tranquil atmosphere disappears. As if the building itself was getting tense after welcoming its true owner.
The air in the lobby becomes tense.
A pressure that makes you wonder if space itself is not responding to the mage's killing intent and crumpling into itself.- Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This mansion was Araya Souren himself. Walls, floors, all the traditional boundaries of a building meant nothing to him.
He could exist anywhere within the mansion, and take control of any space. This was his realm, his domain. He could teleport instantly to any location within these grounds. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
"Ah, I still stick to that principle. But that's quite impressive. I had forgotten, this is your body, right? Your magical power is infused into the building, even the air. So you can manipulate the space as you please. I've essentially stepped into a giant spell. ... Hmph, with all that preparation, why were you cornered by Shiki to the point of almost getting killed?" # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
He shot a sharp glare at the bag on the floor, and it shattered into pieces. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Just as his consciousness governed his body, so too did he control the activities of the building itself with his awareness. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

"Ah, I still stick to that principle. But that's quite impressive. I had forgotten, this is your body, right? Your magical power is infused into the building, even the air. So you can manipulate the space as you please. I've essentially stepped into a giant spell. ... Hmph, with all that preparation, why were you cornered by Shiki to the point of almost getting killed?" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This greater understanding of the structure of the world, on top of the building being isolated from the outside (Meaning that the Counterforce and Gaia could not override his attempts at altering their domain) allowed Araya to experiment and finally delve into abstract reality warping. This resulted into him creating an infinite dimension, and set up abstract laws to define its working:

"There is no need for you to worry. She was not confined to a single room in the building. Instead, she was thrown into an infinite space that connects different spaces. The primary purpose of creating this distorted otherworld was to generate a closed loop. No matter what methods or shocks are used, she cannot escape the infinite darkness. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
"Ah, you have no mistakes. For you, a mage, this is the ultimate solution. But what if the premise itself is wrong? What if Shiki was not isolated in some room within this mansion, but isolated within the mansion itself? A barrier that has reached the realm of magic, known as spatial isolation. It's a divine feat that only you, an expert in barriers, could accomplish. Those confined within the closed loop, the Möbius Ring of isolation, cannot escape from within. Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that."
An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Before anyone points it out, no. The dimension being described as a "closed loop" and "enclosed" does not disproves its infinity. The space itself is boundless and limitless, but is governed by abstract rules that function to isolate its contents from the outside world. The infinite nature of the space means there are no physical boundaries, while the functional rules, such as the Möbius Ring structure and the concept of spatial isolation, create an environment where escape is impossible.

However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:

Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
However, when Ryougi killed him, Araya had no more spare bodies to anchor his soul to the material world. This means that he will go into Akasha with his self awareness and mind intact due to his immortality. KnK actually mentions that Araya had never actually experienced death prior to that:

Of course, Araya Souren had not prepared identical bodies in advance in case he died, like some kind of puppet master. In fact, he has never experienced death at all. Though his body has rotted and crumbled to dust from age several times, his consciousness alone survived unbroken. Araya Souren has remained a solitary existence through to the bitter end. Therefore, there was no refuge to flee to should his current body be ruined. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This is important, as remember that even Tohno and Ryougi could only actually unlock their MEoDP by experiencing death with their mind through their near-death experiences. Ryougi was capable of reading abstract concepts like time during her experience, and she eventually became able to grasp Death with her brain:

"Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
Ryougi Shiki acquired this power after spending two years in a comatose state and contacted " " (Kara) for a prolonged period of time. Shiki's body already had the ability to perceive the Lines of Death, the accident merely awakened this power. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Others], p.035-036
Likewise, Araya, by reading abstract concepts with his mind and being in direct contact with Zero, will almost definitely be able to gain full mastery of Stillness, applying it to an abstract level.

For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:

Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet:
Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
Stillness is the balance and the empty boundary between contradicting dualities such as life and death, destruction and creation, etc. Ensuring that the cosmic order remains intact. This further ties into the number Zero being the transitional state between positives and negatives values, while Stillness is the transition between potential and actualization. This also explains the Yin-Yang parallel between Ryougi and Araya: The One (Ryougi-Yang) is the active source of existence and the underlying unity behind all things, while Stillness (Araya-Yin) is the passive backdrops under which the One operates and that regulates its infinite potential, allowing for its expression under a logical system, rather than being everything and nothing at once.

This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:

That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet:
Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
So TLDR: Araya started by being able to read Origins, and his constant quest to study reality and absorbing suffering allowed for the subconscious mastery of his bounded fields. To make an easy comparison, this is like when Tohno Shiki just got his MEoDP and became able to read the Lines of living beings and enact their Death, but still struggled with non-living objects. This barriers are the starting point of Stillness' power, making the user a world of its own that can impose boundaries and structure the rules of existence.

The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.

And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.

Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:

Ether Lump
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating “Nothingness.” Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like “True Magic” In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic’s———
Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
So the First is hinted to be capable of creating "Nothingness", as in, creating shapeless and raw potential that can be later guided and shaped into anything. This mirrors the Dyad allowing for the actualization of potentials and manipulating or creating this primordial state from which all forms arise.

Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:

At the beginning, the First changed all.
...Next, the Second recognized many.
...In answer, the Third showed the future.
...Tethered, the Fourth concealed itself.
And the final Fifth had long since lost its significance. - Mahoutsukai no Yoru
"...At the beginning, the First changed all." clearly refers to the Dyad, at the beginning of creation, changing "all" (The One's wholeness and infinite potentiality) into something definable, which are then recognized by the Second as all different possible parallel worlds etc.

So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far.
 
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Considering he once said that Aoko using "True Magic" means all of True Magic rather than just specifically the Fifth, I doubt so. It's a waste of time trying to instill sense into him. I'm just bothering with him because I am curious seeing if he can back up his big talk now.
what is blud even talking about
 
Also, LOL at Angra having the same Origin as Shiki. Stop butchering KnK with your fanfiction, please.

And before you whine about anything:





Asagami and Kirie were similar, but actually completely different overall from Shiki. Thei Origin is not the actual abstract nothingness corresponding to Akasha. Kirie's corresponds to a detached mental state, while Asagami's corresponds to a physical void where her interaction with others in space is distorted.

Like, if they actually had Shiki's same Origin, Araya would have used them to complete his plan, don't you think? Lmao.
araya needed the mystic eyes of death perception in particular.

also no? Araya literally says they come from the same origin
 
araya needed the mystic eyes of death perception in particular.

Bro, what does this have anything to do with anything I said? Wtf? lol

Edit: Oh, are you saying that Araya needed MEoDP to complete his plan? LOL. You have quite literally confirmed you know nothing about KnK in any capacity with no room for redemption.

What he wanted was Void Shiki, or her powers, so that he could access Akasha thanks to her connection and bring all things to Nothingness:

So, what was it that you wanted, Araya? For Shiki and SHIKI to tear each other apart and leave behind an empty shell? Or did you just want to meet Ryougi Shiki?"

"Two years ago was to draw 'her' out. But it's different now. I told you the conclusion was already out. Shiki does not require that body. That body which is connected to the origin, I shall be taking it and making it my own."

Upon hearing that undisguised statement, Touko went Huh, and her mouth hung open. Her mind that had instantly understood what Araya was saying had gone white with shock.

"It couldn't be, that you plan to move your brain to Shiki's body... ?!"



Araya does not reply to Touko's disbelieving remark. Seeing his stare that implied he had nothing to say, Touko mumbled something about him really having bad tastes. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Araya did not actually care about MEoDP, he was even going to destroy them:

"As expected I don't need those eyes. As a component of Ryougi Shiki they are too dangerous. But before I destroy them --- I may need to anesthetise you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

All he wanted were Void's reality warping powers, not MEoDP specifically. There is a reason he wanted to draw her out before Shiki even had her incident (And thus MEoDP), all he wanted was the Original personality/body connected to Akasha, so that he could do this:

"───So that's why you crave the Root. It has all the records. Even if it doesn't, it can reduce everything to nothing. You want to erase all these filthy humans for your own sake," she said. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5


Hell, look at this:

Ryougi Shiki's body will be crushed but he didn't care about how she would appear. It was sufficient for her body to remain intact enough to support human vital activity. Her head wasn't necessary in the first place. Her cranium may be crushed and her brain fluids splashed out, but that part will only be replaced by own head. What was important was her body. Only her body connected to the root. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Araya was even fine in crushing her head and replace it with his own. All that mattered was that her body would remain intact enough to allow him to transfer his brain in it and use its reality warping nigh-omnipotent powers to end creation and record humanity.

So much for KnK being of low-scale btw.



also no? Araya literally says they come from the same origin

I sent you the novel itself already saying that they are only similar, but actually completely different. Denying without a counterargument is not getting you anywhere.
 
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wankbreaker didn't really respond to the argument
all he said was, "no" and that was pretty much it
hyper wins here
its really sad when your opponent takes the time and effort to type up a bunch of good arguments with evidence and everything and your opponent just says 'no' and only like 5 words
 
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so u concede

Bro, what does this have anything to do with anything I said? Wtf? lol

Edit: Oh, are you saying that Araya needed MEoDP to complete his plan? LOL. You have quite literally confirmed you know nothing about KnK in any capacity with no room for redemption.

What he wanted was Void Shiki, or her powers, so that he could access Akasha thanks to her connection and bring all things to Nothingness:



Araya did not actually care about MEoDP, he was even going to destroy them:



All he wanted were Void's reality warping powers, not MEoDP specifically. There is a reason he wanted to draw her out before Shiki even had her incident (And thus MEoDP), all he wanted was the Original personality/body connected to Akasha, so that he could do this:




Hell, look at this:



Araya was even fine in crushing her head and replace it with his own. All that mattered was that her body would remain intact enough to allow him to transfer his brain in it and use its reality warping nigh-omnipotent powers to end creation and record humanity.

So much for KnK being of low-scale btw.
did you ignore the part where he states that he plans to retrace the path of the Swirl of the Root by using Shiki's eyes?
also:

“The moment Shiki lost consciousness. No matter how extraordinary her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and reflexes might be, her body was still just that of a fragile young girl. Even though he held back his strength to about half, there was no way she could withstand a blow from a man capable of smashing through concrete walls.“
I sent you the novel itself already saying that they are only similar, but actually completely different. Denying without a counterargument is not getting you anywhere.
the novel doesn’t say this, lol

「二年前は失敗した。ヤツは正反対すぎた。必要だったのは同じ “起源”を持ちながら別れた者達だったのだ。そうだ、悦べ両儀式。あの二人はおまえの為だけに用意した生贄だ」




"Two years ago, I failed. That guy was too different. What was needed were those who shared the same 'origin' but were separated. Yes, Rejoice, Shiki Ryougi. Those two were prepared as sacrifices just for you.”

「同じ」 (おなじ, onaji) means "same."
「“起源”」 (きげん, kigen) means "'origin'"

it quite literally says the same.
 
did you ignore the part where he states that he plans to retrace the path of the Swirl of the Root by using Shiki's eyes?

Yes, I did. Feel free to cite that.

“The moment Shiki lost consciousness. No matter how extraordinary her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and reflexes might be, her body was still just that of a fragile young girl. Even though he held back his strength to about half, there was no way she could withstand a blow from a man capable of smashing through concrete walls.“

So? Oh wait, are you saying that this somehow implies Shiki is as weak as a normal girl?
But don't you see something that does not add up already under this interpretation? It supposedly claims that Shiki is as durable as a normal girl, yet it describes the attack she took as capable of shattering concrete walls and large trees, something that no normal human could actually survive. Humans can be fatally injured by attacks that wouldn't scratch concrete walls. A bullet can pierce a human but not a tree, and a shotgun blast can split a human while merely damaging a tree. Even within the Type-Moon universe, Kirei Kotomine needed three strikes to break a tree, despite using a technique that utilised his full body weight even while being bound to said tree. So even isolated, this passage doesn't logically follow if we take it as attributing Shiki the durability of a young girl, even though she survived something 3x stronger than the force that even Kirei can output.

Furthermore, this also find itself in stark contrast with the rest of the novel, which remarks in no uncertain terms that Shiki's body is superhuman when it comes to resilience and recovery. Here is an example from the same Chapter 5 already:

I had sustained a severe injury that would take a week to heal completely, and Mikiya had been making light visits to the hospital for his leg injury. Although my injury was far more severe, my body seemed to be more resilient than most, and the wounds healed completely within a week. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Not only is her body explicitly stated to be more resilient than most, but she also healed broken ribs and ruptured organs in just over a week, which shows that not only she is superhumanly resilient, but that even her healing capabilities are far from human level. This is supported once again later in Chapter 7:

Shirazumi's corpse did not bleed. The red spread all around the warehouse belonged only to her. Her legs, her wrist and her body were all torn, she probably would not survive for more than a few minutes...But if it was her, she could extend her remaining life many fold, and fully recover after receiving treatment. But she didn't feel like doing much. She released her grip on the knife. Ha. Exhaling. If she extends the time between her breaths and cuts off the nerves near the wounds, she should be able to recover enough to head out for help. But...."Forget it."- Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 7.
Despite suffering extensive and potentially fatal injuries ("legs, wrist, and body all torn"), Shiki has the ability to extend her life significantly and fully recover with treatment. This once again demonstrates an advanced healing capability far beyond normal human limits. On top of advanced bodily control techniques to manage and mitigate her injuries, like extending the time between her breaths and cuts off the nerves near her wounds, showing a level of bodily awareness and control beyond normal human capability.

But if you want examples of outright durability, Chapter 3 has that covered:

Fujino murmurs, but then is astonished. Shiki did get away! Unbelievably, Shiki has jumped off the bridge down to the ocean. The sound of a window being broken is heard. What athletic ability... Shiki went off the bridge and into the parking lot right underneath it. "What a ridiculous person you are." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3
As you can see, the text does not indicate that Shiki sustains any injury from the fall. Surviving such a fall unscathed strongly suggests that she possesses superhuman durability or agility. Any bridge should be high enough for a human to splatter instantly, or at least cripple them. It also mentions the sound of a window breaking, indicating that Shiki not only survived the fall but also had enough control and force to break through a window upon landing. This requires considerable strength and precision, further indicating superhuman physical capabilities.

Asagami’s astonishment and the description of Shiki’s action as "unbelievable" and showcasing remarkable athletic ability further implies that this feat is extraordinary. Asagami’s reaction emphasises that this is not something a normal person could achieve. Shiki then proceeds to survive the collapse of the bridge easily, despite having a broken arm and suffering from severe blood loss:

Shiki takes off her jacket and cuts away the sleeve. She wraps the cloth around her left upper arm to staunch the bleeding. A crude treatment. There's no feeling in the arm that was twisted. It will probably never move. Shiki feels a chill at that fact.She is losing blood quickly. She feels her consciousness slipping away....I'm hot-blooded anyway. If I lose some, it will just make me think more clearly…After shaking her head clear of the effect of the blood loss, Shiki gets up. She grips her knife tightly in her right hand. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3.
The parking lot shakes. The ocean in the middle of the storm appears inside of Fujino's mind. Withstanding the burning in her brain, Fujino creates a fulcrum on either side of the bridge...... And bends...BOOM!A tumultuous roar, like the crash of lightning, is heard. The metal foundation creaks and screams. The ground tilts and the ceiling starts to collapse. Fujino blankly stares at the building that is about to give way. The girl on top of her fell away as the world suddenly tilted. There is a storm outside, with the ocean below. If she falls without being able to grab onto something, she will surely die. Fujino takes command of her body, which is even having trouble breathing. She tells it that this place is going to collapse, so she has to get away from here. Dragging her nearly burned-out body, Fujino exits the parking lot. The shopping mall is relatively free of damage. The square corridor is now a rhombus - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3.
And despite all of that and being close to passing out due to exhaustion, she is still capable of instantly knocking out a guard with a single hit:

"Are you in pain?"At the end of the pain, Shiki is standing. She has a knife in one hand. Fujino turns over to face Shiki. Broad Bridge is distorted like it has been squeezed by a giant hand. After coming here in the storm in Touko-san's buggy and arguing with the guard, Shiki shows up from under the bridge with a blood-soaked arm. The guard runs up to Shiki, but she tackles him and knocks him unconscious. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3
So if the novel agrees with Shiki's superhuman physicality, what's the deal with the passage comparing her body to that of a young girl? It's quite simple actually:

With a blow that seemed capable of piercing through even a large tree, Shiki's body was lifted off the ground. Just from that one blow, Shiki vomited more blood than the mage who had been pierced through the chest and neck.
With cracking sounds, her internal organs and the bones protecting them were shattered.
"─────"
Shiki lost consciousness just like that. No matter how much she possessed the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception or exceptional physical abilities, her body was still that of a fragile girl. Even though he had held back his strength to about half, there was no way she could withstand a blow from a man who could even break through a concrete wall. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5.

Not only it is contrasting her body's fragility with her Mystic Eyes here, but it literally talks about her also having "exceptional physical abilities" (Or reflexes, motor control skills, depending on how it's translated), which makes it even more obvious that this quote is less about physique/durability/resilience, and more about vulnerability, structural integrity and overall biology.

This quote is simply constrasting Shiki's supernatural abilities (Her Mystic Eyes, her combat skills, physical stats etc.) with her human's nature. While Shiki's body has superhuman capabilities and abilities, it still remains fundamentally human biologically speaking, which means it can be injured in the same way as that of a young girl, requires the same vital organs to function, and is just as susceptible to extreme physical force damaging her. This inherent vulnerability is why Araya hitting her in a critical spot crippled her. The "hype" about Araya being able to punch through "even a large tree" or "take down a concrete wall" is a metaphor to convey the extent of the damage that Araya can cause to a human body. It's essentially saying that even if Shiki's body was made of something as solid and sturdy as concrete or was as though as a tree, Araya would have effortlessly demolished her all the same. So her actual human body, which has vulnerabilities against physical impact and trauma that concrete and wood do not present, such as flesh that can be torn, bones that can break and organs that can be damaged, had no way to withstand his attacks. It's mostly a literary device to highlight the extreme difference in strength between her and Araya, rather than saying "Yeah Shiki is normal human level and Araya is wall level" as those interpretations are contradicted repeatedly in the very same novel multiple times.

This is just one of the many NPC downplay arguments for KnK at this point. Ryougi is physically continental, she scales above characters with such feats and directly fought them. Archetype can play pinball with the continents, yet she lost to Ryougi. This statement is primarily meant as a literary device to highlight the significant difference in strength between her and Souren. Unless of course, you can explain why supposedly "normal girls" can survive tree snapping punches, or how does Shiki consistently displays superhuman endurance, durability and even healing, but suddenly in this one scene she infinitely drops down?

he novel doesn’t say this, lol

「二年前は失敗した。ヤツは正反対すぎた。必要だったのは同じ “起源”を持ちながら別れた者達だったのだ。そうだ、悦べ両儀式。あの二人はおまえの為だけに用意した生贄だ」




"Two years ago, I failed. That guy was too different. What was needed were those who shared the same 'origin' but were separated. Yes, Rejoice, Shiki Ryougi. Those two were prepared as sacrifices just for you.”

「同じ」 (おなじ, onaji) means "same."
「“起源”」 (きげん, kigen) means "'origin'"

it quite literally says the same.

Bruh.

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AI:

The translation of the Japanese text is:

"Two years ago, I failed. They were too opposite. What was needed were those who shared the same 'Origin' but had diverged paths. Yes, rejoice, Ryougi Shiki. Those two were prepared as sacrifices solely for you."

The text is indicating that the individuals mentioned share the same "Origin" but have diverged or taken different paths in life. This doesn't necessarily mean their Origins are identical in every aspect; rather, it suggests that they originate from the same fundamental concept or source but have developed or expressed that Origin in different ways.

And this should be blatantly obvious, since the story was going for Ryougi being the abstract Nothingness from which everything is sourced from, Kirie being the mental nothingness seeking Death, and Asagami being the physical nothingness where her physical sense and interactions are disrupted. And you talked about "defeating the point of KnK".

Seems like you blatantly left out the "diverged" part and only posted the "Same Origin" sentence. Classic weeb tactic.

Also, I sent you this quote as well:

Right? By making Shiki confront murderers who held concepts totally opposite to her own, you made Shiki realise her own nature. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Anything else?
 
just imitating Archer's fighting style on its own lets him jump from 9-B/8-C to Tier 6, and then he gets stronger/more skilled throughout the route + mental amp bs
do 8-C feats exist (and if so, have they been calculated)
i ask mainly because 9-A is pitiful and sad and i hate it, tier 8 is far more aesthetically pleasing
 
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