- 6,907
- 3,804
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
- 1,048
- 817
according to this wiki angra mainyu would be tier 0 or whatever due to having the same origin as shiki
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
You're the only one making such a claim. It's been stated that nobody ever succeeded in reaching the root cuz there was literally NO COMING BACK!!!
- 1,463
- 661
This would be based actually and totally correct.
- 1,463
- 661
THE GARCHER
- 1,048
- 817
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
He doesn't have the same origin as Shiki. Shikis origin is "Emptiness". Not to be mistakent with "Nothingness"
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
Prove that. Literally talking about every single being.
- 1,048
- 817
they’re both described in the same kanji. any difference in English is the flavor of the translator in question
- 1,048
- 817
「蒼崎。一人も生還者がいないって、どういう事だ？」
「根源に触れて、帰ってきた者は一人もいないの。世界規模でね。触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」
人間程度の魂 means"human level/ranked soul."
- 1,048
- 817
also, zepia lol
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
Lol. Why are you lying out of your ass? Even the Type-Moon wiki that's inconsistent asf realizes the difference.
Ryo8gi Shiki is the only character ever stated to have the origin of literal "Emptiness." Not to be confused with "Nothingness."
- 1,048
- 817
now, to send you to the actual novel.
「......わたしの起源は虚無だから、その肉体を持つ式は死が視える。二年間――昏睡状態で外界を見る こともできず、ただ両儀式という虚無を見つめ続けてきた式は、死の手触りを知ってしまったから 。
式はね、ずっと根源の渦と呼ばれる海に浮いていたのよ。ただひとり、「 」のなかで式というカタチをもっ て」
kanji is 虚無
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
Can you even read between the lines and understand basic contexts?
This is the translation;
It's saying that ANYONE that touches the root disappears as no one has ever come back from it. It doesn't matter who you are. No one even knows if they succeeded in reaching it lol. But for those with "human-sized souls,"(whatever tf that means) not only do they disappear, but they also revert to their original state or they become absorbed into the root.
This is not hard to understand.
- 1,048
- 817
Zepia survived. araya is stated to be able to survive in some form. angras unlimited raise dead allows bazett and himself to pass through it to revive. also, it doesn’t say or, it says and.
also, it’s human-level/ranked,not size. not sure if you’re using a tl tool,but im correcting you on this.
and again, mahoyo takes place after the age of gods, so this is a non argument to the main issue.
Last edited:
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
Yup, it's sometimes called nothingness. Doesn't make it exactly that as we know both Nothingness and Emptiness can be intertwined. It's not hard to grasp. Shikis origin is directly related to the Root itself which is Kara/Emptiness. Heck, it even follows the theme of Kara no Kyoukai's "Boundary of Emptiness."
And also, a person's origin is the most fundamental aspect of their existence. So how in the world would Angra Mainyu have an origin of the root itself? Makes absolutely no sense. This was never stated or implied.
- 1,463
- 661
Because he's super awesome and cool. (He's my favorite TM character) "Because I said so" is perfectly valid reasoning for me to scale Angoat Mainyu to Outer. /j
- 1,048
- 817
doesn’t use the character “空”, so therefore it is not “kara”,but “kyomu” very simple to understand.
he says something closer to “my nature is” instead of “my element is” in the voice acting, but HA raws are a pain to find.
the rest is already explained in other threads here.
- 1,048
- 817
but it’s almost as if….. void shiki isn’t the root….
- 1,048
- 817
based and angrapilled
- 1,048
- 817
this will probably be the last post I make today, as im gonna try and sleep
- 579
- 126
You are not addressing the argument at all. Fact is, those abilities are far superior to Distortion. MEoDP applies the concept of Death by triggering the pre-determined end of something, UL speaks to the true name of things making it impossible to resist its commands, etc.
Asagami uses distortion? Ryougi kills it. God's Word tells her to stand down or outright alters reality to where her distortion do not affect him. Touko's projection machine adapts to it like how it adapted to Alba's flames, etc. Asagami also has clear limits in what she is able to affect with Distortion. She is powerless against true abstract abilities. Her abilities are incredibly strong and unmatched when it comes to pure numerical comparisons, but, as the novel noted, even the infinity of space is powerless before the abstract acting as the foundation for the existence of space (Real numbers) as a whole.
While Asagami’s distortions are immaterial, they produce physical effects and are confined to the physical realm. They can't touch the abstract or conceptual. UL, Ryougi’s MEoDP, and Araya's barriers are all noted to interact with formless, conceptual things, something Distortion simply can't do. It’s limited to bending physical substances, whereas these other abilities operate on a level that transcends the material, making them inherently superior.
Ah, and no, Ryougi began evolving her eyes in Paradox Spiral to the point where she could destroy the abstract laws governing Araya's dimension. Abstract laws, like the laws of physics, don't physically exist in space; they are non-local truths that govern how reality works. Since these laws can't be touched or located in space, the only way for Ryougi to destroy them would be to think them away, as abstract concepts can only be interacted with mentally. We already know that MEoDP can operate without necessarily needing actual physical contact, as seen with Balor. I already told you this. Ryougi has a non-local variation of MEoDP from Chapter 5 onwards that allows her to erase abstract concepts with her thoughts as opposed to physically striking lines or points. That would be why she could kill Archetype in AA, as that would require her to use her MEoDP to erase her reality warping abilities.
Uh, yes, actually. That’s exactly how Araya's barriers work, as I’ve pointed out with direct quotes from the novel. I’m not sure why you’re treating this as something unexpected.
Touko's demon being able to beat Araya...Is just a feat for the demon. Her projection machine was already non-physical and capable of adapting to many different forms of attack. The sealed box demon is even greater and can potentially consume Araya's apartment complex, which would include its infinite dimension.
If that's the fantasies you entertain yourself with, then go ahead.
You talk about me being unable to back up my claims, but this is the 4th time you have refused to address the entirety of my explanation about Stillness and fundamentally misunderstood the point. Roa's situation is entirely different. He actually dies and is reborn, with his information degrading each time it cycles out and transfers into a new host. This isn’t comparable to existing within Akasha with your mind and self-awareness intact, which allows for the direct perception of abstract concepts and the potential to enact them using special powers tied to your Origin. Even then, Roa gained some abilities, like his Mystic Eyes "of Life", from his repeated reincarnations, but his knowledge and power degrade with each cycle, requiring time to recover. His power also depends heavily on his Origin and what aspects of Akasha he’s connected to, which we don't fully understand. Roa’s focus is on life, but even with that, he needs time to regain his full abilities.
Araya, on the other hand, explicitly learns and evolves over time as he gains a deeper understanding of reality. He reaches the point where he can create new realities and establish their laws. Given that he achieved this through understanding the material world, it’s logical that his versatility would drastically increase once he begins to perceive the abstract world directly.
And no, Melty Blood points out how all timelines leads to humanity's destruction. That was Wallachia's entire goal: To avoid this fate of destruction. However he found it impossible, saying the more you try, the more horrible humanity's end will be. And Arcueid actually tells him that their end is inevitable. So yeah.
Last edited:
- 579
- 126
Also, LOL at Angra having the same Origin as Shiki. Stop butchering KnK with your fanfiction, please.
And before you whine about anything:
Asagami and Kirie were similar, but actually completely different overall from Shiki. Thei Origin is not the actual abstract nothingness corresponding to Akasha. Kirie's corresponds to a detached mental state, while Asagami's corresponds to a physical void where her interaction with others in space is distorted.
Like, if they actually had Shiki's same Origin, Araya would have used them to complete his plan, don't you think? Lmao.
And before you whine about anything:
Asagami and Kirie were similar, but actually completely different overall from Shiki. Thei Origin is not the actual abstract nothingness corresponding to Akasha. Kirie's corresponds to a detached mental state, while Asagami's corresponds to a physical void where her interaction with others in space is distorted.
Like, if they actually had Shiki's same Origin, Araya would have used them to complete his plan, don't you think? Lmao.
- 579
- 126
Considering he once said that Aoko using "True Magic" means all of True Magic rather than just specifically the Fifth, I doubt so. It's a waste of time trying to instill sense into him. I'm just bothering with him because I am curious seeing if he can back up his big talk now.
- 579
- 126
If by Tier 0 you mean backed by the boundless source tier (Haven't really kept up with the tiering system stuff), MEoDP is Tier 0 by its very nature, lol.
As for Araya, I backed it up with specific evidence from the source material. In fact, I invite others consulting the thread to read it:
Alright, so, as you know, Araya's Origin is Stillness/Suspension. It makes him specialized in equilibrium/balance and boundaries/division:
Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.
So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.
Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:
Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:
This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:
Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:
Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."
This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:
Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:
Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:
This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:
However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:
For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:
This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:
The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.
And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.
Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:
Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:
So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far.
This Origin is also beyond Death's reach, as it represents the ultimate equilibrium and cessation of motion. Because of this, Stillness is considered "already dead" and "stopped", which makes it logically unable to be killed:
Ryougi could only kill Araya's physical body. Since, unlike his essence, it still participated in reality and had a faint thread that allowed its interaction with space-time:
His Soul, however, has achieved true immortality. Even after Shiki killed his last spare body, both him and Touko noted that he will simply wait into Akasha until he is cycled back into the material world in the next generation:
This is important, because Death is one of the most fundamental principles in TM, to the point that Void Shiki equated it with Akasha:
It can kill "all things without exceptions" by looking at the floor-plan of reality, and is the power that aligns the most with Ryougi's nature, as her Origin wishes for the death of all creation:
Furthermore, during their final conversation, Touko described Araya's Origin as "Zero" (Having no clear end or beginning) and noted that his desire was "Nothingness", bringing about a perfect realm of Death:
This means that Araya is fundamentally empty at his core, and his desire mirrors Void's desire in bringing about the death of all creation. In fact, Paradox Spiral features a noticeable Yin-Yang symbolic representation of him and Ryougi:
Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.
So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.
Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:
He has also been outright compared to Yama:
Yama is the God of the underworld and the ruler of Hell:
This comparison makes sense once you consider Araya's role in recording Death and being able to read someone's Origin, deciding their worth. This parallels Yama's role in keeping watch over the cycle of Death and Rebirth and dealing out judgement and karmic retribution. This is further backed up by Kishima Kouma referencing Araya in MB Act Cadenza:
Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:
With his Last Arc being named after Yama himself at that:
If we go back to Red Demon God, Kiri Nanaya realized that he couldn't match up to Kishima, who innately possessed "Death" within him. Kiri, despite his talent and fascination with killing, could only ultimately pursue Death, without actually achieving it. The only thing that could match Kouma would be something born broken, like him, a "master of Death." :
This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:
And Tohno was actually stated to have MEoDP as a natural ability, with his near death accident being merely the trigger for it:
Add the fact that the Nanaya personality only showed up after Tohno's pseudo death, him describing himself as the "guiding principle" of Tohno's body and as his "foundation", and Tohno being able to surpass the limits of his body when being guided by his mind and killing instincts, and it's clear that Tohno (And by extension Kouma) are Origin awakened beings.
Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:
Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."
This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:
So Araya is also a "Master of Death" like Kishima and Tohno/Nanaya, but he is the most superior variation of such a title, being the very embodiment of suffering and judgement. He is a static constant that controls the very framework under which both Death and Destruction operates.
Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:
They are described as "worlds" contructed from his body/Origin. They are conceptual constructs that casts stasis, suppression, existential dread, reverse physical damage and distort perception to make Araya impossible to sense. They are, for all intents and purposes, actual "worlds" separating Araya Souren from the outside, untouched by conventional rules and only imposing Araya's own rules and will upon anything that enters their domain. They are even called after the six heavenly realms in Buddhism:
Meaning that they symbolize Araya's ability to control and impose judgement on all of creation and its souls, just on a very localized scale.
Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:
This makes perfect sense if you look at other Origin awakened characters: The more they align with their true nature or gain knowledge about their Origin, the more powerful and versatile they become. By absorbing death and suffering as an immortal monster transferring his soul from body to body, and studying the origin and soul, Araya acted as a fundamental constant mirroring the static suffering of Hell and the role "cosmic" judge of Yama. This, overtime, resulted into Araya gaining an understanding of the cycle of transition and the fundamental truths governing existence. This understanding eventually manifested as his bounded fields, as the most basic pratical application of his Origin powers. It allowed Araya to exert his understanding of suffering and reality onto the external world.
This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:
This building not only took over Araya's role as an Hell that recorded Death and suffering in a closed loop, but it was also a temple of the Taiji, representing duality and balance. It also acted as a separate world untouched by natural physical laws:
The building even reached True Magic:
This, once again, proves the importance of Araya's Origin, as his inner landscapes qualifies for True Magic. We also know that it represents Taiji, further expanding into his role as a cosmic judge bringing balance into the world:
The building was structured by starting to replicate the 64 possible types of Death, which represents all the possible interplay of fundamental forces:
This eventually allowed Araya to trace from this 64 hexagrams to the 8 Trigrams (The fundamental building blocks for the 64 hexagrams), then the 4 phenomena of Yin-Yang theory, and finally Yin-Yang itself (The Ryougi), represented by the building's two halves containing activity/life and stillness/death. The complex on itself could have then gone even further and opened a path to the One. Araya only refrained due to the Counterforce's interference:
To sum it up, the complex has the same function of Araya's barriers to separate the inside from the outside, suspend conventional rules, enforcing Araya's own will and record and manage the cycle of life and death, but on a far larger scale. The building also encapsulated every possible interaction between the fundamental forces of Yin and Yang, acting as a microcosm of creation. This enhanced Araya's understanding of reality, on top of him gaining an understanding of how to manipulate spatial boundaries by merging his body with the structure of the building:
This greater understanding of the structure of the world, on top of the building being isolated from the outside (Meaning that the Counterforce and Gaia could not override his attempts at altering their domain) allowed Araya to experiment and finally delve into abstract reality warping. This resulted into him creating an infinite dimension, and set up abstract laws to define its working:
Before anyone points it out, no. The dimension being described as a "closed loop" and "enclosed" does not disproves its infinity. The space itself is boundless and limitless, but is governed by abstract rules that function to isolate its contents from the outside world. The infinite nature of the space means there are no physical boundaries, while the functional rules, such as the Möbius Ring structure and the concept of spatial isolation, create an environment where escape is impossible.
However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:
However, when Ryougi killed him, Araya had no more spare bodies to anchor his soul to the material world. This means that he will go into Akasha with his self awareness and mind intact due to his immortality. KnK actually mentions that Araya had never actually experienced death prior to that:
This is important, as remember that even Tohno and Ryougi could only actually unlock their MEoDP by experiencing death with their mind through their near-death experiences. Ryougi was capable of reading abstract concepts like time during her experience, and she eventually became able to grasp Death with her brain:
Likewise, Araya, by reading abstract concepts with his mind and being in direct contact with Zero, will almost definitely be able to gain full mastery of Stillness, applying it to an abstract level.
For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:
Stillness is the balance and the empty boundary between contradicting dualities such as life and death, destruction and creation, etc. Ensuring that the cosmic order remains intact. This further ties into the number Zero being the transitional state between positives and negatives values, while Stillness is the transition between potential and actualization. This also explains the Yin-Yang parallel between Ryougi and Araya: The One (Ryougi-Yang) is the active source of existence and the underlying unity behind all things, while Stillness (Araya-Yin) is the passive backdrops under which the One operates and that regulates its infinite potential, allowing for its expression under a logical system, rather than being everything and nothing at once.
This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:
So TLDR: Araya started by being able to read Origins, and his constant quest to study reality and absorbing suffering allowed for the subconscious mastery of his bounded fields. To make an easy comparison, this is like when Tohno Shiki just got his MEoDP and became able to read the Lines of living beings and enact their Death, but still struggled with non-living objects. This barriers are the starting point of Stillness' power, making the user a world of its own that can impose boundaries and structure the rules of existence.
The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.
And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.
Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:
So the First is hinted to be capable of creating "Nothingness", as in, creating shapeless and raw potential that can be later guided and shaped into anything. This mirrors the Dyad allowing for the actualization of potentials and manipulating or creating this primordial state from which all forms arise.
Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:
"...At the beginning, the First changed all." clearly refers to the Dyad, at the beginning of creation, changing "all" (The One's wholeness and infinite potentiality) into something definable, which are then recognized by the Second as all different possible parallel worlds etc.
So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far.
Last edited:
- 1,048
- 817
what is blud even talking about
- 12,447
- 5,641
so u concede
- 1,048
- 817
araya needed the mystic eyes of death perception in particular.
also no? Araya literally says they come from the same origin
- 579
- 126
Bro, what does this have anything to do with anything I said? Wtf? lol
Edit: Oh, are you saying that Araya needed MEoDP to complete his plan? LOL. You have quite literally confirmed you know nothing about KnK in any capacity with no room for redemption.
What he wanted was Void Shiki, or her powers, so that he could access Akasha thanks to her connection and bring all things to Nothingness:
Araya did not actually care about MEoDP, he was even going to destroy them:
All he wanted were Void's reality warping powers, not MEoDP specifically. There is a reason he wanted to draw her out before Shiki even had her incident (And thus MEoDP), all he wanted was the Original personality/body connected to Akasha, so that he could do this:
Hell, look at this:
Araya was even fine in crushing her head and replace it with his own. All that mattered was that her body would remain intact enough to allow him to transfer his brain in it and use its reality warping nigh-omnipotent powers to end creation and record humanity.
I sent you the novel itself already saying that they are only similar, but actually completely different. Denying without a counterargument is not getting you anywhere.
Last edited:
- 12,447
- 5,641
wankbreaker didn't really respond to the argument
all he said was, "no" and that was pretty much it
hyper wins here
its really sad when your opponent takes the time and effort to type up a bunch of good arguments with evidence and everything and your opponent just says 'no' and only like 5 words
all he said was, "no" and that was pretty much it
hyper wins here
its really sad when your opponent takes the time and effort to type up a bunch of good arguments with evidence and everything and your opponent just says 'no' and only like 5 words
Last edited:
- 1,048
- 817
did you ignore the part where he states that he plans to retrace the path of the Swirl of the Root by using Shiki's eyes?
also:
“The moment Shiki lost consciousness. No matter how extraordinary her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and reflexes might be, her body was still just that of a fragile young girl. Even though he held back his strength to about half, there was no way she could withstand a blow from a man capable of smashing through concrete walls.“
the novel doesn’t say this, lol
「二年前は失敗した。ヤツは正反対すぎた。必要だったのは同じ “起源”を持ちながら別れた者達だったのだ。そうだ、悦べ両儀式。あの二人はおまえの為だけに用意した生贄だ」
"Two years ago, I failed. That guy was too different. What was needed were those who shared the same 'origin' but were separated. Yes, Rejoice, Shiki Ryougi. Those two were prepared as sacrifices just for you.”
「同じ」 (おなじ, onaji) means "same."
「“起源”」 (きげん, kigen) means "'origin'"
it quite literally says the same.
KingNanaya
He/Him- 3,075
- 4,240
I don't care about ANY of that right now, new trailer drop 
- 579
- 126
Yes, I did. Feel free to cite that.
So? Oh wait, are you saying that this somehow implies Shiki is as weak as a normal girl?
But don't you see something that does not add up already under this interpretation? It supposedly claims that Shiki is as durable as a normal girl, yet it describes the attack she took as capable of shattering concrete walls and large trees, something that no normal human could actually survive. Humans can be fatally injured by attacks that wouldn't scratch concrete walls. A bullet can pierce a human but not a tree, and a shotgun blast can split a human while merely damaging a tree. Even within the Type-Moon universe, Kirei Kotomine needed three strikes to break a tree, despite using a technique that utilised his full body weight even while being bound to said tree. So even isolated, this passage doesn't logically follow if we take it as attributing Shiki the durability of a young girl, even though she survived something 3x stronger than the force that even Kirei can output.
Furthermore, this also find itself in stark contrast with the rest of the novel, which remarks in no uncertain terms that Shiki's body is superhuman when it comes to resilience and recovery. Here is an example from the same Chapter 5 already:
Not only is her body explicitly stated to be more resilient than most, but she also healed broken ribs and ruptured organs in just over a week, which shows that not only she is superhumanly resilient, but that even her healing capabilities are far from human level. This is supported once again later in Chapter 7:
Despite suffering extensive and potentially fatal injuries ("legs, wrist, and body all torn"), Shiki has the ability to extend her life significantly and fully recover with treatment. This once again demonstrates an advanced healing capability far beyond normal human limits. On top of advanced bodily control techniques to manage and mitigate her injuries, like extending the time between her breaths and cuts off the nerves near her wounds, showing a level of bodily awareness and control beyond normal human capability.
But if you want examples of outright durability, Chapter 3 has that covered:
As you can see, the text does not indicate that Shiki sustains any injury from the fall. Surviving such a fall unscathed strongly suggests that she possesses superhuman durability or agility. Any bridge should be high enough for a human to splatter instantly, or at least cripple them. It also mentions the sound of a window breaking, indicating that Shiki not only survived the fall but also had enough control and force to break through a window upon landing. This requires considerable strength and precision, further indicating superhuman physical capabilities.
Asagami’s astonishment and the description of Shiki’s action as "unbelievable" and showcasing remarkable athletic ability further implies that this feat is extraordinary. Asagami’s reaction emphasises that this is not something a normal person could achieve. Shiki then proceeds to survive the collapse of the bridge easily, despite having a broken arm and suffering from severe blood loss:
And despite all of that and being close to passing out due to exhaustion, she is still capable of instantly knocking out a guard with a single hit:
So if the novel agrees with Shiki's superhuman physicality, what's the deal with the passage comparing her body to that of a young girl? It's quite simple actually:
Not only it is contrasting her body's fragility with her Mystic Eyes here, but it literally talks about her also having "exceptional physical abilities" (Or reflexes, motor control skills, depending on how it's translated), which makes it even more obvious that this quote is less about physique/durability/resilience, and more about vulnerability, structural integrity and overall biology.
This quote is simply constrasting Shiki's supernatural abilities (Her Mystic Eyes, her combat skills, physical stats etc.) with her human's nature. While Shiki's body has superhuman capabilities and abilities, it still remains fundamentally human biologically speaking, which means it can be injured in the same way as that of a young girl, requires the same vital organs to function, and is just as susceptible to extreme physical force damaging her. This inherent vulnerability is why Araya hitting her in a critical spot crippled her. The "hype" about Araya being able to punch through "even a large tree" or "take down a concrete wall" is a metaphor to convey the extent of the damage that Araya can cause to a human body. It's essentially saying that even if Shiki's body was made of something as solid and sturdy as concrete or was as though as a tree, Araya would have effortlessly demolished her all the same. So her actual human body, which has vulnerabilities against physical impact and trauma that concrete and wood do not present, such as flesh that can be torn, bones that can break and organs that can be damaged, had no way to withstand his attacks. It's mostly a literary device to highlight the extreme difference in strength between her and Araya, rather than saying "Yeah Shiki is normal human level and Araya is wall level" as those interpretations are contradicted repeatedly in the very same novel multiple times.
This is just one of the many NPC downplay arguments for KnK at this point. Ryougi is physically continental, she scales above characters with such feats and directly fought them. Archetype can play pinball with the continents, yet she lost to Ryougi. This statement is primarily meant as a literary device to highlight the significant difference in strength between her and Souren. Unless of course, you can explain why supposedly "normal girls" can survive tree snapping punches, or how does Shiki consistently displays superhuman endurance, durability and even healing, but suddenly in this one scene she infinitely drops down?
Bruh.
AI:
The translation of the Japanese text is:
"Two years ago, I failed. They were too opposite. What was needed were those who shared the same 'Origin' but had diverged paths. Yes, rejoice, Ryougi Shiki. Those two were prepared as sacrifices solely for you."
The text is indicating that the individuals mentioned share the same "Origin" but have diverged or taken different paths in life. This doesn't necessarily mean their Origins are identical in every aspect; rather, it suggests that they originate from the same fundamental concept or source but have developed or expressed that Origin in different ways.
And this should be blatantly obvious, since the story was going for Ryougi being the abstract Nothingness from which everything is sourced from, Kirie being the mental nothingness seeking Death, and Asagami being the physical nothingness where her physical sense and interactions are disrupted. And you talked about "defeating the point of KnK".
Seems like you blatantly left out the "diverged" part and only posted the "Same Origin" sentence. Classic weeb tactic.
Also, I sent you this quote as well:
Anything else?
- 579
- 126
I don't care about ANY of that right now, new trailer drop
Bad move on SR's end. Could have saved its dignity.
- 2,341
- 2,140
do 8-C feats exist (and if so, have they been calculated)
i ask mainly because 9-A is pitiful and sad and i hate it, tier 8 is far more aesthetically pleasing
- 288
- 213
strange Fake)
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 2,341
- 2,140
realstrange Fake)
- 12,822
- 2,599
fake
- 2,341
- 2,140
strange
- 1,808
- 1,477
Fake
