Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[LehenDuo]

sure, the manga and anime made with assistance from typemoon themselves are non-canon.

That's the joke, even Typemoon canon isn't canon. /s but not really
jokes are the only canon

 

[HyperZero95]

This ultimately is never talked in verse, and doesn't really matters.
What matters is that for 1 to be 1, 1 has to be defined as something and has to be different from 2. That is the limit that exist, ultimately, the limit that allows 1 =/= 2 to be true.
And that is why they say that only " " is boundless and singular/one - because infinity is boundless, but not singular, and depends on the "plurality" to be defined as infinity.

You're basically saying Akasha is what allows things to be separated, which allows things like one to be distinct from each other, right? You didn't explain yourself well, but that's what you're getting at, right?

That's not what this text says, but it wouldn't even hurt my argument in the first place. So what was the point of this? The fact is says she found the "non-existent limit" is referring to the abstract that upholds it, since the abstract is non-existent from a physical standpoint.

Literally headcannon on the inner workings of the spell.

That's not a reply to what I said. In order for space to even exist, it needs to be sourced from finite things first, with said finite things stemming from the Root and thus having flaws that traces back to it. This is explicitly stated multiple times:

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

As long as something as threads that permits its existence, Ryougi can kill it. Said threads are connected to the primordial source. MEoDP is literally the power of Akasha to end all things that flowed out from it and return them to its unity.

Bro... WHAT? Let's just compeltely ignore the entire lore on channels, noble colors and etc and create a headcanon "she did it mentally"...

....Abstract concepts are not found anywhere in space and can only be accessed mentally. TM is consistent about this, with Ryougi accessing Akasha while her physical body was in her hospital bed, or Aoko accessing it while standing in front of Touko the whole time. Or Tohno being unable to see any Death Lines on Wallachia, who is an abstract phenomena, (which he cannot comprehend the death of yet at the time) because "he didn't exist", aka he wasn't physical. So yes, Ryougi had to imagine the abstract and then erase it with MEoDP. You are basically saying that you can touch and cut the law of gravity, how the hell does that work?

And again - the limits are not necessarily abstract. AGAIN, for the third time - SURFACE OF SPHERE. It is BOUNDLESS, but has REAL LIMITS as far as the space it encompass/occupies, etc. Considering the fact Mobius Strips are cited in the KNK work (and Klein Bottles, as Kelin Coffins/Boxes), it's natural to assume this. The space itself was embedded inside the Reality Marble of Araya in some way, for example, which is FINITE.

"Non-existent limit". Which is referring to the abstract, since it is non-existent from a physical perspective. This line would make no sense with your interpretation. Klein Bottles have a real physical end to them. So Touko calling it abstract, the novel calling it a non-existent limit, and Touko distinguishing it from a physical prison contradicts your interpretation.

Not only you are not contributing to the discussion, but you are fundamentally unable to grasp the point.

 

[LehenDuo]

....Abstract concepts are not found anywhere in space and can only be accessed mentally. TM is consistent about this, with Ryougi accessing Akasha while her physical body was in her hospital bed, or Aoko accessing it while standing in front of Touko the whole time. Or Tohno being unable to see any Death Lines on Wallachia, who is an abstract phenomena, (which he cannot comprehend the death of yet at the time) because "he didn't exist", aka he wasn't physical. So yes, Ryougi had to imagine the abstract and then erase it with MEoDP. You are basically saying that you can touch and cut the law of gravity, how the hell does that work?


"Non-existent limit". Which is referring to the abstract, since it is non-existent from a physical perspective. This line would make no sense with your interpretation. Klein Bottles have a real physical end to them. So Touko calling it abstract, the novel calling it a non-existent limit, and Touko distinguishing it from a physical prison contradicts your interpretation.

The same scene which calls it "non-existing, abstract limits" also says:

"An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things."

You are just repeating the word that fits within your fiction in this case.
1) The entire exposition of the scene is about how these limits OUGHT TO EXIST for the infinite space to EVEN BE INFINITE.
2) "enclosed, inifnite space"... See what it's written there? ENCLOSED - Enclosed in what? The limits of the "space" so defined - what exactly they are don't matter, but they objectively exist and the infinite space is IN THEM EMBEDDED. Not only these limits exist, they are re-affirmed.

The thing Shiki "acessed" was her own interior, re-read the novel, please - the fact that Akasha exists outside of the World means that even physically doesn't "mean" anything there, as it is a thing defined by Textures... The whole thing was about how she was forced to "gaze upon her own interior" or something like that, in a manner similar to Void, or something of that sense. Akasha can't even be a purely physical place from the start.

( Spiritual Tomb and how it exists "tangent" to Age of Man Texture and other things shows this - "locality" makes no sense in such space, that is, outside of Age of Man Texture space or a Texture similar to it. )

Wallachia isn't abstract - as you said, he's a phenomen. Had Tohno looked at natural phenomena, the result would be the same, Phenomena aren't "true things", but merely resultants, there are paragraphs trying to explain how Nasuverse diferentiates them, and has nothing to do with this case. ( And presentation seem of Wallachia is very much physical. There is no Wallachia itself, and that is the problem that is the whole "phenomena" thing - There is no THE "Thunder" for "Thunder" to be killed yada yada )

And I'm not saying anything of that. You are merely failing at understand the concept being talked.

Not only you are not contributing to the discussion, but you are fundamentally unable to grasp the point.

Read that for yourself, please.

 

[HyperZero95]

huh? a persons existence is etched onto their soul, as f/sn says.

I don't care what SN stays. I care about what KnK said. You ignored the Epilogue quotes I sent you. Void said that Ryougi's soul and its pattern is shaped by her Origin. Void is the personality of the Origin. But since the personality of the Origin is contained within the body and distinct from the personality stemmed from the mind and the brain, it's treated as the personality of the body. Hell, the Fate/Extra shit you cited proves my point:

In the past, in the medical community, it was thought that the body = life, and the body was an output device needed to power the soul. Without a living body, a soul could not be generated.
However, in the magus community the opposite was thought to be true. The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.

The soul is contained in the body, and it requires it to exist in the material world. Hence the soul is the personality of both the body and the Origin, as the brain generates another personality altered by its experiences, making the Original personality dormant. None of this helps your point. In fact:

"As expected I don't need those eyes. As a component of Ryougi Shiki they are too dangerous. But before I destroy them --- I may need to anesthetise you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Please tell me why Araya wanted to destroy MEoDP and constantly talks about obtaining Ryougi's body specifically (Which would equate to Void even under your unsound logic of the body and the soul being different lol) if he wanted to complete his plan with MEoDP? You are reaching so hard here, you may reach another galaxy, all to deny Void's powers.

There’s a difference between “this blow is powerful enough to shatter concrete”, and “this blow is powerful enough to cause harm to Shiki, whose durability could be likened to concrete.”
the former is stated outright. the latter is a reach.

Nice try. The overall statement is saying "Shiki's body, while powerful, was still that of a young girl, so it could not withstand a blow capable of smashing concrete". It's entirely used in relation to her biological vulnerabilities. It's simply saying that even though Shiki is strong, she is not invincible and extreme physical force like that from Araya's punch could exploit her human vulnerabilities. Even if she was hypotetically as resistant to blunt force as a concrete wall or a large tree, Araya would have demolished her all the same, so her actual human body stood no chance against him. That's not a "reach", it's simply interpreting things in a logical manner. Your interpretation is overlooking the context of the entire statement and focusing narrowly on one part, which does not align with the full logical context provided.

supplementary material enforces how physically fragile she is, saying she’s surprisingly weak without her sword or knife,

I already addressed this. The source you are citing is a hypotetical fighting game, meaning that the damage the characters deal is referring to in-game mechanics. It's talking about the damage value they have in-game should the player hit the opposing character. It's not a lore info. How do we know that? Because Kishima Kouma's "damage is the highest of all the characters", so is Kouma stronger than Archetype Earth now? lol. It's fine to use the actual moves and blatant in-lore info (Like Roa's Overload or Ryougi's precog with her katana), but the damage they deal is purely related to game mechanics. If you insist on this point, then please tell me how can Kouma hit harder than Archetype Earth.

and that she struggled so much against araya’s implanted arm, when a flame could have been set to it and burned it away.

First, that's never stated anywhere. Second, and? The sarira, despite their spiritual protection, are still physical objects that can be harmed by physical force, yes. Their protection can negate metaphysical influences such as MEoDP, since they belong to someone that achieved enlightenment and removed himself from the cycle of death and rebirth. However, this protection has no bearing on the physical world, meaning you can harm them physically, even though they are still noticeably more durable than the rest of Araya's body. But..... you'd still need physical force exceeding Araya's own continental durability in order to damage them. You are not making any sense here. What even is your point? lol.

being easier to kill, does not equal being weaker.

Ryougi said that fighting and killing Nrvnqsr would be way easier than fighting and killing Araya. That can only have one implication: Araya is much stronger. That's confirmed by Ryougi dispatching Nrvnqsr without much issues despite only having her knife, while Araya wrecked her while holding back and made her fear for her life. Again, you focus on a singular line on a vacuum and overlook the entire context, it's embarassing.

Even ignoring that, in order to actually kill someone, you have to outperform them in combat and trace their lines, so their physical capabilities would be included by default. And Nrvnqsr has an entire world of creatures that automatically guards him from surprise attacks and can be spammed in large quantities in unexpected ways. That's, if anything, way harder than defeating a guy whose main shtick outside his complex are three circular barriers you can easily kill with MEoDP.

touko notes how buffed he is in his complex, and he would be equal to alba otherwise…. who is compared to kayneth of all people.

The statement that "their abilities may be equal" is vague and does not directly address physical stats, especially since Araya is explicitly described as being unmatched in close combat in the modern age:

"Thus, the only way for Araya to eliminate Touko was through close combat. Araya was a man who had survived tumultuous times. In physical combat, there was no one in the modern era who could stand against him." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This indicates that Araya's physical prowess surpasses that of anyone else in the modern era, suggesting that any vague comparison of "equal abilities" does not pertain to physical strength.

Furthermore, it cannot refer to their skillsets, as Alba and Araya have fundamentally different approaches. Alba is characterized as a "destroyer" with a focus on high-speed, ranged magic, while Araya is a close-range fighter employing bounded fields to make himself invincible. Their abilities and styles are described as fundamentally different, with Araya consistently depicted as a far bigger deal by the narrative.

The only thing I can think that statement could be referring to is maybe their proficiency with magecraft? Or general abilities as a magus? Pretty vague, and any significant area of comparison is blatantly contradicted in the same chapter, so idk. It falls short of the far more numerous and concrete evidence that Araya skullcrushes Alba.

Plus, nero starts with his fodder beasts anyways, and slowly ramps up.

Not always. Especially not against Ryougi, who has the same MEoDP as Nanaya Shiki, who made Nrvnqsr suffer a humiliating defeat back in Tsukihime. He would go all-out or close to it from the start, especially since he even blatantly does so when he actually meets Nanaya again in MB Re-Act. Ryougi was also still completely unimpressed by Nrvnqsr after the fight was over, meaning he is not relevant to her, nevermind Araya.

Sojuurou is stated verbatim to be the strongest TM protagonist.

By who? By Nasu? The same dude who said Living Gilgamesh would barely beat living Saber Alter? That Void is Ciel tier but then suddenly the second strongest character? The guy who said Arcueid is the strongest TM character, but then turns around and said ORT is? The guy who said Kirei can beat Ciel? The guy who can't even get basic lore about KnK right? The same guy who admitted being a compulsive liar, with the Fate/Zero team making fun of his incoeherent statements? What a great source.

Again, not only has Nasu repeatedly contradicted his supposed stories, but he contradicted even his other interview statements and is known to be unreliable as a source even by his own staff. And even if he wasn't as unreliable, the source material still takes precedence over any external comments, as the text isn't going to magically alter itself to follow what an author says on the spot, with potentially having bad memory problems or just having a different opinion at the time. Akira Toriyama forgot Super Saiyan 3 was a thing, does that mean the form is magically not canon? No, it's simply an invalid statement akin to fanfiction.
Please, argue on the source material.

the text not describing her damage doesn’t equal being damaged.

The text not describing any damage, despite emphasizing the difficulty of the maneuver, and the fact that Shiki continues to fight without issue against Asagami, strongly suggests that she wasn’t actually harmed, yeah? The novel only mentions that Shiki’s arm was being bent by Asagami, with no reference to additional damage from the fall.

also ignoring chapter 5 where she does take damage in a superior state,even while arayas barrier absorbing the impact force for her.

Dude, all it says is that it would've worsened her already existing injuries, and you have to remember that fall would be combined with her own speed. So that wouldn't have been a normal fall in the first place. Again, by your logic, Goku being harmed by Frieza throwing a mountain at him means he must be mountain level.

that is a straw man, I specifically replied under the sentence where you touted knocking someone out in one shot as being outside human capability.

Pretty sure you didn't, but even then, you are wrong. Even setting aside the difficulty of knocking someone out with a single hit (especially while tired and injured like Shiki was) what she accomplished is inherently more impressive: Shiki not only avoided the collapse of a bridge with a broken arm, which is an impossible feat for anyone IRL, but she also managed to one-shot a fully grown man despite being exhausted and having lost a significant amount of blood.

a real life person has survived a fall from 10000 meters up, so it is not impossible.

.....................

Following the bombing, Vulović spent days in a coma and was hospitalized for several months. She suffered a fractured skull, three broken vertebrae, broken legs, broken ribs, and a fractured pelvis. These injuries resulted in her being temporarily paralyzed from the waist down.

And this is the biggest outlier on the planet too. Since most people die instantly. The one person who doesn't, this still happens to them. ^ Just stop dude.

no? I’m talking about you saying they wield opposing concepts = they don’t have the same origin, when araya is just talking about their specific circumstances. this is all BEFORE he says they have the same origin anyway.

I've already detailed why their Origins cannot be exactly the same, citing several novel quotes and explaining the context behind their personalities and Origin powers. The evidence shows that while their Origins might be vaguely similar, they are fundamentally different. The text even puts "Origin" in quotation marks. Araya would have used the much more easily accessible and easy to manipulate Asagami or Kirie in that case, never bothering with Ryougi. Stop devolving the narrative into incoherent nonsense.
Not going in circles with this. If you fail to address the points I raised some posts ago, I'm going to count that as a concession.

A Mobius strip is a real like construct that can be physically made.

That's such an incredibly compelling counteargument to everything I said.

Fact is, Touko never said shit about Ryougi being physically weak or being possible to be contained by physical prisons. She was merely making fun of Araya's perspective in thinking he could contain someone who can kill all things with no exceptions, including the abstract.

so… an adaptation.

A guidebook....Is an adaptation?

...Ok dude...LOL.

i’ve already proved how calling Arcueid a god is a categorical error that the franchise takes note of several times.

It's a hyperbolic title to design top tier entities. It's also used in the context of Shiki's catchphrase of being able to kill even gods as long as they live, which she used in response to Archetype supposedly lacking a concept of Death. You are taking this way too seriously. It just refers to Ultimate Ones being perceived as God-like entities.

And even ignoring that, what the hell would the statement refer to then? It's saying that in Ryougi's ending, after killing Tohno, what she was destinated to do was killing a god, with Archetype being the person she encounters right after killing Tohno. Shiki counters Archetype’s confidence in her supposed invulnerability by asserting that no matter how a god might seem, it would still fall to her as long as it exists. The context is obvious.

**Only that the bastard's objective is to reach the Maelstrom of Origins. In that case he would open up Shiki's body, but thankfully that rat doesn’t have the guts for something like that. **He will probably think it over until time runs out. He was always like that. It was fine for him to be happy about capturing a Redcap alive, but he didn't know how to dissect it properly so it eventually rotted. Well, even the person himself said as much, but Shiki's body will probably be fine for another 7 days, of course this is in the case that she was captured safely."
Touko-san says something very disturbing.
"--- Shiki's fine. That guy, he said he was keeping her. That phrase includes the meaning that she's alive."
Me who is rebutting her words, without realising it I was glaring at Touko-san.
Because, while my mouth was saying this --- I had imagined Shiki getting murdered.
"--- And so, if we don't rescue her quickly."

This is Touko talking about Alba, not Araya. As she didn't know about him yet, only suspected later on he was behind it after actually going there. And this overall statement is typical Touko vague blabber. I already posted very explicit statements about Araya wanting Void Shiki and not giving a shit about MEoDP. Please, address those.

 

[HyperZero95]

1) The entire exposition of the scene is about how these limits OUGHT TO EXIST for the infinite space to EVEN BE INFINITE.

I've already said this is the case dude. LOL You're trying to start a disagreement where there is none.

2) "enclosed, inifnite space"... See what it's written there? ENCLOSED - Enclosed in what? The limits of the "space" so defined - what exactly they are don't matter, but they objectively exist and the infinite space is IN THEM EMBEDDED. Not only these limits exist, they are re-affirmed.

It's in the walls of his complex. You may say his complex is finite, but we know that infinite sized dimensions can exist within finite things. Just look at the Moon Cell.

The place in the complex's walls is its own realm, so it doesn't play to conventional size constraints, like having to be finite because it's in his complex. It's another space entirely.

"Enclosed" is just a way of emphasizing the spatial and practical isolation of the dimension rather than its literal shape or extent. This ensures that while the space is boundless, it is still functionally and conceptually isolated.

The thing Shiki "acessed" was her own interior, re-read the novel, please - the fact that Akasha exists outside of the World means that even physically doesn't "mean" anything there, as it is a thing defined by Textures... The whole thing was about how she was forced to "gaze upon her own interior" or something like that, in a manner similar to Void, or something of that sense. Akasha can't even be a purely physical place from the start.

Please take your own advice, since you couldn't even distinguish Coke's translation from other translations, which shows you never read the novel.

Where does it say anything about accessing her own interior to destroy Araya's reality? What does that even entail?

Wallachia isn't abstract - as you said, he's a phenomen.

....Which is abstract.

Had Tohno looked at natural phenomena, the result would be the same, Phenomena aren't "true things", but merely resultants,

Which is why it's abstract. It's not a physically definable thing. Do you even know what abstract means? I know VSBattles screws it up, since they think physical spaces like higher dimensions can contain or transcend concepts, so this may have skewered your perception of what the abstract actually is.

there are paragraphs trying to explain how Nasuverse diferentiates them, and has nothing to do with this case. ( And presentation seem of Wallachia is very much physical. There is no Wallachia itself, and that is the problem that is the whole "phenomena" thing - There is no THE "Thunder" for "Thunder" to be killed yada yada )

You aren't even forming coherent sentences here.