Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Wankbreaker]

Oh, just going to address Neco's famous "microcosm" point. All we need to do is pull out the dictionary:

Akasha, the boundless source of creation, holds the building blocks for all possible things. These elements can combine to generate constructs such as space and time, thereby governing them through fundamental rules. This is why Akasha is described as a "microcosm" of the world: it represents reality at its most fundamental level, embodying the essential concepts that form the "building blocks" of all existence.

This is why the actual translation from BL forums actually describes it also as "the floor-plan of reality":

"縮図" (shukuzu) translates to "miniature" or "scaled-down version", to be as literal as possible, im going to have to break it down for you.

• 縮 (shuku): This kanji means "shrink" or "reduce."
• 図 (zu): This kanji means "diagram," "drawing," or "plan."

So, 縮図 together literally refers to a "reduced diagram" or "scaled-down plan," conveying the concept of a smaller representation of something larger.

something being more “fundamental” does not mean a reduction in scale, lol

 

[HyperZero95]

Oh guys. I know I said I would stop now. But, by a twised turn of Fate, I happened to just casually browse through the internet to accidentally find yet again another attack from this clown.

Look and behold! This is Neco's great idea of countering the argument:


LMAO, pathetic spineless worm. You are nothing more than a coward. You and your cult of children who constantly ********** 24/7 to a jobber who has never done anything meaningful but getting raped by Nanaya or losing to everyone in her own debut Visual Novel has already been destroyed by everyone.
Let this be an example of how desperate to lie about these fictions Neco is. Shows you have nothing in life In any capacity. The ultimate meaning to you is sitting on the internet lying about a fictional verse. You are literally a waste of air.

But I heard you already did very malicious things to other people, so I guess it was just a matter of time you'd do something like this because you were getting humiliated badly. Keep wanking the Nanaya victim kek.

Also, look my friend. Actually sane people agreed with my view on Araya's powers:

And this is the actual Type Moon subreddit of all places. So you are really on the losing end here.

With that being said, it's hilarious you posted an out of context screenshot of mine so that you and your little group of bottom feeding tik tokers or whatever other children platform there is can laugh about it to feel validated, but LOL! Look and behold:

This idiot unironically said the Earth > Akasha, which is worse than every claim I ever made combined (Which have all been extensively backed up by canonical evidence that he hasn't addressed at all fyi).

Now rethink your life. I'm out (Finally).

 

[Wankbreaker]

WwOh guys. I know I said I would stop now. But, by twised turn of Fate, I happened to just casually browse through the internet to accidentally find yet again another attack from this clown.

Look and behold! This is Neco's great idea of countering the argument:


LMAO, pathetic spineless worm. You are nothing more than a coward. You and your cult of children who constantly ********** 24/7 to a jobber who has never done anything meaningful but getting raped by Nanaya or losing to everyone in her own debut Visual Novel has already been destroyed by everyone.
Let this be an example of how desperate to lie about these fictions he is. Shows you have nothing in life In any capacity. The ultimate meaning to you is sitting on the internet lying about a fictional verse. You are literally a waste of air.

Keep wanking the Nanaya victim kek.

Also, look my friend. Actually sane people agreed with my view on Araya's powers:

And this is the actual Type Moon subreddit of all places. So you are really on the losing end here.

Now rethink your life.

BREAKING: Old man screams at cloud
idk who you’re referring to,but it’s clear you’re mentally unstable

 

[Wankbreaker]

Araya’s plan to use her powers to end creation would be impossible, rendering his entire quest nonsensical. This would cause the entire narrative to lose its logic. There are many other examples where this perspective falls apart. While power levels aren’t the main focus, they still play an important role in the narrative, adding tension and depth to the characters’ struggles.

almost forgot to reply to this.

Araya was interested in transplanting his brain into her, and using the mystic eyes of death perception to achieve his goal. not because of any other ability. and regardless, arayas plan involved touching the root, in which only he could do in KnK due to his origin.


and as we know from tatari and angra, this doesn’t guarantee anything, lol

and even void’s statements are uncertain about her abilities,and she would have more knowledge than araya on that regard

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Hey popping in for a quick question the profile for ORT is seem like it haven't been updated yet is there anyone working on it?

I don't think anyone is working on it right now.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

His author status is questionable since he constantly contradicts himself even on basic lore, and he has admitted to have other people force him to add new story elements, or rewrite the entirety of the story from scratch. Either he is not the one true author, or he had some mental change that made him entirely different and forget most of the original story. Or he simply had a lot of help.

What Tsukihime are you referring to?

Either way, this is, in my opinion, a completely crazy claim to make. Do you have any actual evidence for Nasu not writing it, and even if you did, why does it matter?

The main point though was that he is an unreliable source, with him admitting he is a compulsive liar on top of that. People should argue based on the source material above all, rather than external comments that contradicts not just the stories, but even themselves. For more information, you can consult this thread here. For the record, it's entirely fine if you think Nasu still wrote everything. But you cannot deny he had help and that he contradict himself in incredibly strange ways, on top of the complete shift in themes and narratives in newer series.

I mean, we had a thread that removed Nasu's word of god, so ok, I guess.

Also, I mean, yeah? There are tons of authors for various series in the Nasuverse, and Nasu himself said that he has a different mindset nowadays than when he was very depressed and cynical in his 20's.

Like I said, I wasn't following your debate, so if you don't mind, could you please fill me in on how this was relevant to your debate? I'm curious.

The guy simply makes absurd strawmans to avoid facing the actual arguments. Like him claiming I said that Shirou's Origin is "hero", just to make me look wrong, when I told him countless of times that Nameless it not the same person as FSN Archer, sending him both an official quote saying that, and a screenshot from the game itself saying that Archer's Origin is the remnant ideals of nameless heroes, which would likely include the Sword Origin of FSN Shirou.
Or him genuinely thinking that "The fate awaiting Ryougi was the murder of a god" is any different from "The destiny in store for her was being a god killer". All because their objective is keeping Arcueid as number 1. It's so bad that Neco/Marshadow literally and unironically said that Earth > the Root on CV..........

I wasn't following your debate, so I don't really know which is correct.

Hell, just look at this:

They used this to argue that Avalon can block MEoDP, which is contradicted by all lore and feats in the verse. They would use various parody meme non-canon instances to deny what is blatantly shown in the lore.

Funnily enough, April Fools 2013 is likely canon in some way. There are a decent amount of references to it throughout Type-Moon works.

Also, I don't see what's wrong here? Avalon places Mysterious Heroine X in Avalon, so Shiki and her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception wouldn't be interacting with her, but instead would be interacting with Avalon; thus, Mysterious Heroine X would be protected.

Is Avalon more powerful than the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception? As far as I know, it's not, but it would still block the attack in some way. Araya was able to block Shiki's attacks with his barriers, right? So, I don't entirely see what's wrong here.

They are entirely dishonest and should just be ignored.

Like I said, I wasn't following the debate, so I don't have enough information to judge them or you.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Yo, finally!

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

What abilities would grant absorbing one's soul in Nasuverse? I'm thinking of the ones Servant Physiology has by interacting with soul. Anything else?

Definitely soul manipulation, and as of right now, that would also be conceptual manipulation, information manipulation, and maybe mind manipulation and memory manipulation (right now it's accepted that the soul is a concept, information, and also includes the mind and memories on this site, if I recall correctly), plus, for soul eaters like Servants, it would probably be statistics amplification since they can use souls to empower themselves.

 

[HyperZero95]

What Tsukihime are you referring to?

The Original.

Either way, this is, in my opinion, a completely crazy claim to make. Do you have any actual evidence for Nasu not writing it, and even if you did, why does it matter?

He has made statements that contradict not only his own stories but also previous interviews. These contradictions aren't just about power levels, they extend to basic lore. For instance, he claimed that Aoko's age doesn't align in Kara no Kyoukai, even though the novel suggests otherwise. Similarly, he stated that a living Gilgamesh would be comparable to a living Saber Alter, which doesn't make sense and goes against established lore.

It's also known that he was pressured to add entire story elements, such as Nrvnqsr and the Kohaku route, and he even had to rewrite Tsukihime almost entirely from scratch. His work was heavily influenced and regulated by others. I already linked a thread here showing every suspicious or contradicting claims he has made.

Now, I might have gone too far by suggesting he didn’t write anything at all. However, the fact that he has contradicted himself on these matters raises some red flags. And it’s undeniable that he was forced to change, add, or remove certain elements under the influence of others.

I mean, we had a thread that removed Nasu's word of god, so ok, I guess.

Well, yes. That was my main point in highlighting his contradictory statements. Not only has he contradicted himself, but he’s also admitted to being a compulsive liar, and the Fate/Zero team even poked fun at his inconsistencies. That’s really the core of what I’m saying. If you still believe he wrote everything, that's fine. But it doesn’t change the fact that his statements have been so unreliable, even on basic lore and characterization, that his credibility as an author can be questioned.

Ultimately, we should focus on the source material itself rather than rely on external interview statements that often contradict each other. I think we can both agree on that?

Like I said, I wasn't following your debate, so if you don't mind, could you please fill me in on how this was relevant to your debate? I'm curious.

The guy was using WoG statements that directly contradicted the source material, so I pointed out just how unreliable Nasu is as a source. This unreliability is to the extent that his being the true author of everything is even questionable. And even if Nasu is the sole author, it would mean he’s changed so much that his current statements can't be trusted regarding older works. The main point remains that if an author makes an external statement that contradicts the actual work, the work itself takes precedence, rendering the external statement effectively fanfiction because it's not reflected in the lore.

As usual, this person was inflating the issue of whether Nasu is the true author to avoid addressing how the source material contradicted his claims. Furthermore, the few statements he cited from Nasu didn’t even support his arguments; he simply misinterpreted them. So, in this specific case, it’s not even Nasu’s fault.

Funnily enough, April Fools 2013 is likely canon in some way. There are a decent amount of references to it throughout Type-Moon works.

Canon or not, parodies works cannot be used for serious discussions.

Is Avalon more powerful than the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception? As far as I know, it's not, but it would still block the attack in some way. Araya was able to block Shiki's attacks with his barriers, right? So, I don't entirely see what's wrong here.

Araya could only block it thanks to his Sarira, which belonged to someone entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth. Yet, Araya stated that Shiki will eventually be able to kill those as well, as they are still an object with a cause for their movement. As long as something as a cause, Ryougi can sever and kill it:

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This is stated once again when Ryougi destroyed Araya's infinite realm. While the space was infinite, it still had an overall limit in being sourced from the abstract:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05

As long as limits exist, Ryougi can kill them. MEoDP is capable of killing everything that sourced from Akasha and relies on it to exist. All things, no matter how complex, have a thread connecting it to the Root:

The only thing that MEoDP is unable to kill would be an omnipotent, self-sustaining existence that doesn't rely on anything to exist, aka Akasha itself. That's what the text meant with "If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…."

This is further backed up by Void, stating that Ryougi with MEoDP glimpses at the floor-plan of reality (Reality at its most fundamental levels):

:—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

And that she can kill all things with no exceptions by the time of the Epilogue:

If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Finally, we have her killing Archetype Earth, who lacks the concept of Death:

With Archetype even stating that Ryougi can bestow Death on what cannot die, backed up by Ryougi being still confident in killing AE even after seeing that she has no death in her:

This shows that MEoDP at its higher levels can instill Death, and we already have statements and showings from Paradox Spiral of it being able to kill abstract concepts:

Ryougi Shiki, who could see death, was an extraordinary existence. But merely killing people was a common ability. Modern weapons created by civilization were far more lethal.

The eason Ryougi Shiki was unique among even the mages wasn't because of her ability to kill living things—it was because she could kill things that shouldn't be killable, even intangible concepts.

"That which leads to death"—that was her power.

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Which all backs up Void's statement that by the time of the Epilogue, Ryougi can kill anything with no exceptions with MEoDP. Excluding Akasha and Stillness, as they are flawless and already stopped respectively, thus they cannot be logically killed.

So, what version of MEoDP is that Avalon thing using? I could buy Avalon maybe blocking the attack against Shiki's earlier iterations, where her eyes weren't very evolved yet. But Ryougi at her peak/Void? Nah.

Like I said, I wasn't following the debate, so I don't have enough information to judge them or you.

Alright. I understand claiming that Nasu didn't write anything may sounds lunatic from an outsider's point of view. However, my primary point was to highlight the unreliability of his interview statements. I believe we don’t disagree on this, especially considering that a thread discussing this issue was accepted on this site not too long ago.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Funnily enough, April Fools 2013 is likely canon in some way. There are a decent amount of references to it throughout Type-Moon works.

Also, I don't see what's wrong here? Avalon places Mysterious Heroine X in Avalon, so Shiki and her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception wouldn't be interacting with her, but instead would be interacting with Avalon; thus, Mysterious Heroine X would be protected.

Is Avalon more powerful than the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception? As far as I know, it's not, but it would still block the attack in some way. Araya was able to block Shiki's attacks with his barriers, right? So, I don't entirely see what's wrong here.

There’s a decapitation animation previously, implying it does interact with her, you also have the 5 billion statements of Avalon being an absolute defense

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Which doesn't matter since Araya>all of fate and tsukihime and the narrtive of KNK would fall down if this wasn't the case

Outer Gods or even Chaos from Lostbelt >>> Araya

 

[Wankbreaker]

The Original.



He has made statements that contradict not only his own stories but also previous interviews. These contradictions aren't just about power levels, they extend to basic lore. For instance, he claimed that Aoko's age doesn't align in Kara no Kyoukai, even though the novel suggests otherwise. Similarly, he stated that a living Gilgamesh would be comparable to a living Saber Alter, which doesn't make sense and goes against established lore.

if you read Mahoyo, you’d know that it would take 10 more years for Aoko to completely learn the fifth magic, she just cheated time to bring that Aoko into the present

it should be painfully obvious that nasu was talking about living artoria,but whatever.

It's also known that he was pressured to add entire story elements, such as Nrvnqsr and the Kohaku route, and he even had to rewrite Tsukihime almost entirely from scratch. His work was heavily influenced and regulated by others. I already linked a thread here showing every suspicious or contradicting claims he has made.

there’s a clear difference between the suggestions “add another villain besides Roa!” and “split the maid routes into two!”
and every facet of those characters being spoonfed by nasu.

Now, I might have gone too far by suggesting he didn’t write anything at all. However, the fact that he has contradicted himself on these matters raises some red flags. And it’s undeniable that he was forced to change, add, or remove certain elements under the influence of others.

there’s a difference between editorial suggestions from takeuchi, and being forced to do something. literally almost every author has an editor. does this mean they didn’t write the series, or don’t know about their series? no.

Well, yes. That was my main point in highlighting his contradictory statements. Not only has he contradicted himself, but he’s also admitted to being a compulsive liar, and the Fate/Zero team even poked fun at his inconsistencies. That’s really the core of what I’m saying. If you still believe he wrote everything, that's fine. But it doesn’t change the fact that his statements have been so unreliable, even on basic lore and characterization, that his credibility as an author can be questioned.

Ultimately, we should focus on the source material itself rather than rely on external interview statements that often contradict each other. I think we can both agree on that?



The guy was using WoG statements that directly contradicted the source material, so I pointed out just how unreliable Nasu is as a source. This unreliability is to the extent that his being the true author of everything is even questionable. And even if Nasu is the sole author, it would mean he’s changed so much that his current statements can't be trusted regarding older works. The main point remains that if an author makes an external statement that contradicts the actual work, the work itself takes precedence, rendering the external statement effectively fanfiction because it's not reflected in the lore.

As usual, this person was inflating the issue of whether Nasu is the true author to avoid addressing how the source material contradicted his claims. Furthermore, the few statements he cited from Nasu didn’t even support his arguments; he simply misinterpreted them. So, in this specific case, it’s not even Nasu’s fault.

and you’re inflating the issue about Nasu statements,in order to leave enough room to insert your headcanon

Canon or not, parodies works cannot be used for serious discussions.



Araya could only block it thanks to his Sarira, which belonged to someone entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth. Yet, Araya stated that Shiki will eventually be able to kill those as well, as they are still an object with a cause for their movement. As long as something as a cause, Ryougi can sever and kill it:

those were probably degraded or nerfed in some way, as they can be destroyed by normal flames, and physical force ( and considering they can be burned, that wouldn’t require much either.)

“However, the sadness of bones is that instead of doing that, they can simply be turned to ashes more easily by burning. Rather than using Death-type spells, just level up and physically strike them.”

(this is laughably consistent with the fourth popularity poll entry i linked,where it says ryougi is physically weak. touko even says to araya his first mistake was not restraining her physically.)

regardless, everything araya has can be overpowered by toukos demon, and true demons are superior to them in everyway possible.

Spoiler: text wall

真性悪魔【事柄】EXTRA世界にあっても、悪魔の概念は人類にとって最大の障害として扱われる。神が全知能であるのなら、悪魔は人知無能の存在。手の届く範囲にありながら決して理解できない淵ふちだ。stay nightにおいて悪魔は偽物しか存在せず、本物————受肉した悪魔に人間は太刀打ちできないとされる。（＊受肉した悪魔を退散させた例は一件のみ記録されているが、それはまた別の話）たいてい悪魔は憑くものとされ、人間の体を用いて受肉しようと働くが、苗床になる人間の精神が耐えられず、周囲に魔をまき散らして自壊するのが通例。中には自らの業によって人間でなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれる人間もいるが、これは魔人化と呼ばれるもので真性悪魔ではない。EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。悪魔、魔人化、と銘打ってはいるが、その在り方は異なる文明圏、異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらな い。なにしろこの認識宇宙における『人』でなくなったのだから。その在り方は二十世紀に流行した、とある創作神話における邪神の在り方に近い。ＣＣＣの真ルートで変生へんじようした ある人物はこの域に達しながら、些細なミスによって神の座から転落した。

and heres my translation:

True Demons [Concept] Even in the EXTRA world, the concept of demons is treated as the greatest obstacle to humanity. If God is omniscient, then demons are beings beyond human understanding. They are an abyss within reach but forever incomprehensible. In Stay Night, only fake demons exist; real demons — incarnate demons — are unbeatable by humans. (Note: There is only one recorded instance of an incarnate demon being repelled, but that is another story.) Typically, demons are believed to possess individuals, attempting to incarnate using human bodies; however, the mind of the human host usually cannot withstand the strain, causing them to self-destruct while spreading malevolence around them. Some humans, through their own actions, cease to be human and are included in the category of demons, but this is known as demonic transformation and does not qualify as a true demon. As of 2030 in the EXTRA world, no phenomena resulting in the birth of a true demon, whether through possession or transformation by one's own actions, have been successful. Although termed as demons or demonic transformations, their nature is no different from that of higher-dimensional life forms residing in different civilizations or on different planets. After all, they have ceased to be 'human' in this recognized universe. Their manner of existence closely resembles the form of eldritch gods depicted in a certain mythos popularized in the twentieth century. A certain individual in the true route of CCC, who reached this state of transformation, fell from the Throne of God due to a minor mistake.

the individual in question is Kiara, obviously.

so basically.
toukos box demon can beat araya
true demons are higher order life forms that cannot be beat by humans, and are pretty much infinitely superior to normal ones.

same kiara who is a true demon cannot beat amaterasu, as only extra arc (who is heavily nerfed, can beat her).

i dont have to get higher on the scaling chain for you to realize how dumb wanking araya is, right?

This is stated once again when Ryougi destroyed Araya's infinite realm. While the space was infinite, it still had an overall limit in being sourced from the abstract:



As long as limits exist, Ryougi can kill them. MEoDP is capable of killing everything that sourced from Akasha and relies on it to exist. All things, no matter how complex, have a thread connecting it to the Root:

The only thing that MEoDP is unable to kill would be an omnipotent, self-sustaining existence that doesn't rely on anything to exist, aka Akasha itself. That's what the text meant with "If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…."

This is further backed up by Void, stating that Ryougi with MEoDP glimpses at the floor-plan of reality (Reality at its most fundamental levels):



And that she can kill all things with no exceptions by the time of the Epilogue:



Finally, we have her killing Archetype Earth, who lacks the concept of Death:

With Archetype even stating that Ryougi can bestow Death on what cannot die, backed up by Ryougi being still confident in killing AE even after seeing that she has no death in her:

This shows that MEoDP at its higher levels can instill Death, and we already have statements and showings from Paradox Spiral of it being able to kill abstract concepts:



Which all backs up Void's statement that by the time of the Epilogue, Ryougi can kill anything with no exceptions with MEoDP. Excluding Akasha and Stillness, as they are flawless and already stopped respectively, thus they cannot be logically killed.

syn and i already responded to this,

but this guy is using a mistranslated guidebook scan, as the actual raw JP keeps it ambiguous.

but arcueid being referred to a god in any fashion is heavily contradicted by lore, as it is a categorical error.

Berserker was originally an spirit from the Earth called "True Ancestor" but, due to Gatou's misconceptions that say "she = God" her status downgraded from Planet to God, making her unable to properly display her abilities.

Their creation was not influenced by human ideas, so they are not a type of Divine Spirit. They are an existence desired by the world, but not by humans.

So, what version of MEoDP is that Avalon thing using? I could buy Avalon maybe blocking the attack against Shiki's earlier iterations, where her eyes weren't very evolved yet. But Ryougi at her peak/Void? Nah.

if we’re using “omg she can kill anything!!111”
then “omg it can defend against anything!1!1!” would be just as valid. especially since void shiki is uncertain about her own existence

Alright. I understand claiming that Nasu didn't write anything may sounds lunatic from an outsider's point of view. However, my primary point was to highlight the unreliability of his interview statements. I believe we don’t disagree on this, especially considering that a thread discussing this issue was accepted on this site not too long ago.

 

[Wankbreaker]

the mindset of the araya beats types people.



this is exactly why ryougi scalers are hated,there’s a surprising amount of people here who think araya and base ryougi can beat types

 

[Huesito88]

So the Nasuverse has gone full "agenda piece"

 

[Wankbreaker]

So the Nasuverse has gone full "agenda piece"

even agenda piece is more reasonable than some of these takes.

 

[Wankbreaker]

now that this shitfest is seemingly over, what does everyone think about the OC3 prologue/summer event?
if you don’t understand Japanese or don’t have FGO JP, Neo FGO uploads TLed versions pretty much daily

 

[BoastJr]

Nasu should stop lumping in stories together. I don't think combining Summer with OC3 stuff was a good idea especially since OC3 requires that to be cleared to enter its story.

I blame the work schedule more here.

But besides that the event has been ok'ish so far. Should be a nice little surprise for CCC fans since we all know whats likely to happen

 

[SeijiSetto]

UBW is pretty good so far
just about finished S1, will probably watch the HF trilogy once i've finished S2 and then maybe go play the VN remake

 

[KingNanaya]

UBW is pretty good so far
just about finished S1, will probably watch the HF trilogy once i've finished S2 and then maybe go play the VN remake

I'm glad you're enjoying it

 

[Wankbreaker]

maybe go play the VN remake

should have done that first, the fate route needs to be finished before the other 2

 

[SeijiSetto]

should have done that first, the fate route needs to be finished before the other 2

too late! i'm doing it after now
kinda crazy how shirou can actually just keep up with Caster-amped Kuzuki after projecting Kanshou and Bakuya
HUGE amp for someone that was basically getting blitzed and near one-shot before

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

too late! i'm doing it after now
kinda crazy how shirou can actually just keep up with Caster-amped Kuzuki after projecting Kanshou and Bakuya
HUGE amp for someone that was basically getting blitzed and near one-shot before

just imitating Archer's fighting style on its own lets him jump from 9-B/8-C to Tier 6, and then he gets stronger/more skilled throughout the route + mental amp bs

trying to convey this in the revised sandbox I have for his profile without making a billion keys or splitting it into different profiles for each route has been almost impossible

 

[KingNanaya]

too late! i'm doing it after now

you should watch Carnival Phantasm

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Root thread experience

 

[Wankbreaker]

m

Root thread experience

that thread gives me brain damage, there’s misunderstandings on both sides

 

[BoastJr]

Root thread experience

We will get Mahoyo 2 before getting any activity on the Root thread

 

[Wankbreaker]

We will get Mahoyo 2 before getting any activity on the Root thread

i will intervene soon enough… (I’ll send the draft post in the gc, help me out )

 

[HyperZero95]

Outer Gods or even Chaos from Lostbelt >>> Araya

Outer Gods? You mean the beings that were explicitly stated in GO to not actually be metaphysical, conceptual or immortal? lol.

Chaos shoots lightspeed beams, which are not going to tag someone way faster than Aoko, who could fight the sentient will of the cosmos. Araya reaching him could be difficult because of the space alteration stuff, so idk on his KnK iteration.

But Araya at his peak can apply boundaries and Stillness on an abstract level and blink:

Spoiler

Araya's Origin is Stillness/Suspension. It makes him specialized in equilibrium/balance and boundaries/division:

Those who awaken to their origin are bound by their origin. I see. My impulse was Stillness" The magus said this, not to anyone, but in irony. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This Origin is also beyond Death's reach, as it represents the ultimate equilibrium and cessation of motion. Because of this, Stillness is considered "already dead" and "stopped", which makes it logically unable to be killed:

The mage's discourse continues."As a reference, I do not die. My origin is 'suspension'. Someone who has woken to their origin becomes ruled by that origin itself. Someone who has already stopped - how can you kill him?" Shiki doesn't reply. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Ryougi could only kill Araya's physical body. Since, unlike his essence, it still participated in reality and had a faint thread that allowed its interaction with space-time:

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

His Soul, however, has achieved true immortality. Even after Shiki killed his last spare body, both him and Touko noted that he will simply wait into Akasha until he is cycled back into the material world in the next generation:

"The backup bodies? None. If we meet again, it'll be in the next generation," he said.
"There won't be any mages by then. No meeting again. You'll end up alone, until the end.
Yet, you're still not giving up?" she asked.
"Of course not. I don't acknowledge defeat," he replied. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This is important, because Death is one of the most fundamental principles in TM, to the point that Void Shiki equated it with Akasha:

—I am a hollow container which only gazes inward, which communes solely with death - in other words with what Magi call the "Root", though I see no value in it whatsoever. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

It can kill "all things without exceptions" by looking at the floor-plan of reality, and is the power that aligns the most with Ryougi's nature, as her Origin wishes for the death of all creation:

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.
—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Furthermore, during their final conversation, Touko described Araya's Origin as "Zero" (Having no clear end or beginning) and noted that his desire was "Nothingness", bringing about a perfect realm of Death:

"Forgot your reason, did you? Your desire is nothingness, and even your origin is zero. So, what are you exactly?" she asked. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
The gathered disciples each boasted about completing their magical theories and their future glory. But Araya alone replied, "I desire nothing." The disciples laughed at him, considering him a man without ambition, but Touko couldn't bring herself to laugh.
... The feeling Touko experienced at that time was fear.
Araya didn't say he desired nothing because he lacked ambition. It was that he truly desired nothing. He didn't even desire his own existence in this world. Araya Souren longed for a perfect realm of death. That's why his desire was to desire nothing.
A man who hated humanity to the point of building a shell to protect himself. Call it lack of ambition if you want. This man detested humanity's contradictions, rejecting even the most trivial happiness. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This means that Araya is fundamentally empty at his core, and his desire mirrors Void's desire in bringing about the death of all creation. In fact, Paradox Spiral features a noticeable Yin-Yang symbolic representation of him and Ryougi:


Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.

So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.

Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:

One day, while I was absorbed in making the doll that was my goal, I met that man. Someone who possessed a unique personal history, like originally being a Tamil priest. He was a hellish man. His strong will and tempered shell, it was like an eternally burning drive for achievement.
... Hellish. What I mean by saying that, Kokuto, is that if the idea of Hell was to gain a will and take the form of a man, my hypothesis is that it would be something like him. To the degree that he couldn't accept others, he was just absorbing misery. His ability as a mage was full of flaws, but his strong ego surpassed everything.
--- It was a coarse guy like that who I fell for." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
A living hell that had collected the deaths of various humans. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

He has also been outright compared to Yama:

"Hmph. Do you like things that are one that much, Araya? Light and darkness weren't divided because they had to oppose each other, but because that had the potential for containing the greatest number of things. Everything is lonely if it's by itself. That is everything tries to multiply. You were never able to forgive that. Investigating the various deaths of humans, and making that your own by researching those lives. You would probably take even my death and make it into a piece of knowledge about the life and death of a human called Aozaki Touko to be stored away in the corner of your brain. You mean to figure out the value of a human that way, but doing that is the role of Yanma. As a human yourself, all you can do is to continue existing in a hell that keeps sucking in deaths." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Yama is the God of the underworld and the ruler of Hell:

In Buddhism, Yama is the name of the very first human to die, who then became the king of hell. He is also called Enma Dai-O. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Judgment of Yama [Technique]

This comparison makes sense once you consider Araya's role in recording Death and being able to read someone's Origin, deciding their worth. This parallels Yama's role in keeping watch over the cycle of Death and Rebirth and dealing out judgement and karmic retribution. This is further backed up by Kishima Kouma referencing Araya in MB Act Cadenza:


Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:

Kishima Kouma’s Arc Drive.
Though it bears a striking resemblance to Tohno Akiha’s Arc Drive, the nuance is completely different. In Akiha’s case, the opponent is merely mistaking the feeling of having their heat stolen as a burning sensation, while in Kouma’s case both they and the surrounding environment are actually being consumed by hellfire.
The name Jambudvīpa comes from Buddhism. It is the southernmost of the four island-continents surrounding Mount Sumeru in the Desire realm Kāmadhātu, and the place where humans live. Basically, another name for Sahā-lokadhātu, the endurance world. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Jambudvīpa Inferno [Technique]

With his Last Arc being named after Yama himself at that:

Kishima Kouma’s Last Arc.
Triggered by an aerial counter. After it starts, Kouma flies to the edge of the screen, then hits the opponent with a powerful jumping kick. There are two different things that he might yell out at this point, but one of them is extremely rare.
In Buddhism, Yama is the name of the very first human to die, who then became the king of hell. He is also called Enma Dai-O. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza ps2 Manual - Judgment of Yama [Technique]

If we go back to Red Demon God, Kiri Nanaya realized that he couldn't match up to Kishima, who innately possessed "Death" within him. Kiri, despite his talent and fascination with killing, could only ultimately pursue Death, without actually achieving it. The only thing that could match Kouma would be something born broken, like him, a "master of Death." :


This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:

The most powerful mystic eyes are those which are possessed from birth. Things like Shiki's mystic eyes that can see the death of things, or mystic eyes that can turn someone to stone with a glance, are "psychic abilities" that cannot be reenacted even with sorcery. Mystic eyes can be ranked by color. Normal mystic eyes shine red or green. Strong ones glow a luminous gold. And eyes that fall in the realm of gods glimmer with multiple colors, like jewels or rainbows. By the way, though Akiha's "Origami" bears a striking resemblance to mystic eyes, it is actually a kind of curse. And despite Shiki's eyes being called the "mystic eyes" of death perception, strictly speaking they are a psychic ability – specifically, the "pure eyes" possessed by saints and holy men. -Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes [Unusual talent], p.188

And Tohno was actually stated to have MEoDP as a natural ability, with his near death accident being merely the trigger for it:

"Just as I suspected. You had the latent ability, but that must have been the trigger... The Mystic Eyesof Death Perception, huh. Yes, with those, you could definitely kill even me."- Tsukihime- Near Side: Arcueid's route - 3/ The Black Beast I

Add the fact that the Nanaya personality only showed up after Tohno's pseudo death, him describing himself as the "guiding principle" of Tohno's body and as his "foundation", and Tohno being able to surpass the limits of his body when being guided by his mind and killing instincts, and it's clear that Tohno (And by extension Kouma) are Origin awakened beings.

Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:


Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."

This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:

"How amusing for Agrippa's direct descendant to be wallowing in the religion of the Jews. That's why you still haven't understood the true nature of this place. Hell? That kind of thing exists somewhere on this Earth at this very moment. If you want to see murder on a scale that the human mind cannot comprehend, go to a battlefield. If you wish to see humans dying on a scale you could never believe, just go to any starving nation. Something like this isn't hell. It's merely purgatory, this."
And she puts her bag down upon the floor.
Tock. A dry sound.
"A place where eternally tormented souls who committed small crimes and cannot go to heaven or hell reside. That is the true identity of this place. A closed loop where the torture isn't carried out to fulfill some purpose, but where the whole purpose is to torture. In something like this, there isn't any thaumatergical effect --- or at least, not for a outsider like you." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

So Araya is also a "Master of Death" like Kishima and Tohno/Nanaya, but he is the most superior variation of such a title, being the very embodiment of suffering and judgement. He is a static constant that controls the very framework under which both Death and Destruction operates.

Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:

Although Araya is average as a magus, his talents relating to Bound Field construction is exceptional.
A bound field divides what is inside from the outside. In order to construct a complete world from his own body, first Araya must complete himself.
Araya, who has no exceptional talents, is able to become a first-class bound field master by completing himself through the accumulation of ages and sheer determination.
That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

They are described as "worlds" contructed from his body/Origin. They are conceptual constructs that casts stasis, suppression, existential dread, reverse physical damage and distort perception to make Araya impossible to sense. They are, for all intents and purposes, actual "worlds" separating Araya Souren from the outside, untouched by conventional rules and only imposing Araya's own rules and will upon anything that enters their domain. They are even called after the six heavenly realms in Buddhism:

"Barrier: Six Realms Boundary" - Character introduction from Tsukihime's Fouth Character Poll

Meaning that they symbolize Araya's ability to control and impose judgement on all of creation and its souls, just on a very localized scale.

Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:

Although Araya is average as a magus, his talents relating to Bound Field construction is exceptional.
A bound field divides what is inside from the outside. In order to construct a complete world from his own body, first Araya must complete himself.
Araya, who has no exceptional talents, is able to become a first-class bound field master by completing himself through the accumulation of ages and sheer determination.
That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

This makes perfect sense if you look at other Origin awakened characters: The more they align with their true nature or gain knowledge about their Origin, the more powerful and versatile they become. By absorbing death and suffering as an immortal monster transferring his soul from body to body, and studying the origin and soul, Araya acted as a fundamental constant mirroring the static suffering of Hell and the role "cosmic" judge of Yama. This, overtime, resulted into Araya gaining an understanding of the cycle of transition and the fundamental truths governing existence. This understanding eventually manifested as his bounded fields, as the most basic pratical application of his Origin powers. It allowed Araya to exert his understanding of suffering and reality onto the external world.

This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:

Within this building that repeats the spiral of daily life, the original form of all the deaths that humans experience is swirling around. The records that the physical body called Araya Souren contained until now, this building has succeeded him as their container. This place was him, his will itself.
... So, that meant that she was inside his body.
Touko observed the atmosphere filling the lobby as she muttered to herself. The strained air wasn't for Araya's benefit. Rather, it was the soundless hatred of all the residents who had been murdered by this building.
This amount of hatred that threatens to crush even her, day by day, Araya keeps expanding it. To borrow his words it wasn't the amount he was increasing but the quality. Since in the end, all those hundreds of deaths were but one identical way of dying.
Murder born from love, in other words family, lover, mother, father, child.
Murder born of hatred, in other words family, lover, friend, upperclassman, stranger.
Various ways of dying for various reasons.
Repeated everyday, a conclusion that keeps getting clearer.
--- Death, becoming denser.
This building is a spell. An altar constructed to solidify Araya Soren's will. In order to carry out magecraft of a grand scale you needed not only an incantation and your own prana, but also the sacrifice of other lives and the strength of the land itself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

A temple of Taiji. It could be called the artificial manifestation of the inner landscape of Araya Souren, who did not have a Reality Marble. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
"Wait, Araya. I have one question. The original purpose of this building was to contain the Taiji, right? To manifest the Taiji?"
〝Indeed. I created this pocket dimension to completely isolate Ryougi Shiki from the outside world. All the other features are secondary." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This building not only took over Araya's role as an Hell that recorded Death and suffering in a closed loop, but it was also a temple of the Taiji, representing duality and balance. It also acted as a separate world untouched by natural physical laws:

A twisted dimension of this level should be completely separated from the physical laws of the outside world. Preparations for opening the path were finished long ago, Aozaki." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Ah, I see, this building was a kind of magic after all! It's a closed world created to capture Shiki and ensure that neither the Association, nor I, nor the world, become aware of it—a cage, in other words. If someone like you appears with the intent to kill Shiki, the world will surely act as a deterrent. This otherworld was made to conceal the fact that Shiki is imprisoned. That much is fine. It's all perfectly executed up to that point. But it's ironic, isn't it, Araya? You've made a colossal mistake in the end." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

The building even reached True Magic:

This building is a spell. An altar constructed to solidify Araya Soren's will. In order to carry out magecraft of a grand scale you needed not only an incantation and your own prana, but also the sacrifice of other lives and the strength of the land itself.
By constructing a magical temple in the present day, Araya is attempting to carry out magecraft of an even greater scale.
No, it wasn't magecraft. A mystery that used a twisted dimension of this level was already no longer on the level of magecraft.
This was --- that was right, a mystery of a province unreachable with today's knowledge. There was no doubt that this was an act of absolute power that human hands could not reach, magic. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This, once again, proves the importance of Araya's Origin, as his inner landscapes qualifies for True Magic. We also know that it represents Taiji, further expanding into his role as a cosmic judge bringing balance into the world:

Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory. It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji

The building was structured by starting to replicate the 64 possible types of Death, which represents all the possible interplay of fundamental forces:

The important thing is not the amount of deaths. It's the quality of the deaths. If you approach the origin, the ways of dying become surprisingly well-defined. By dissecting the road to death, I determined that there are 64 different methods of dying. The ones who are gathered here are people who die in everyone of those 64 ways. In other words, they are a miniature copy of the world. I experience their suffering, and engrave it into my heart. In order that I may soon simplify that from [insert here] ([insert here]: Eight divination tools drawn in the Chinese Book of Divination [insert here 8 types]. It is said that the first emperor of China created them after observing the heavens) to [insert here] ([insert here]: The four symbols of Yin-Yang. Formed by the merging of Yin and Yang there are four the manifestations called [insert here 4]), so that I may reach Yangyi." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
I have created a world within which a day is completed. However it can't become a Yangyi just because life and death are next to each other. If it isn't the life and death of the same people, it is lacking as a place to sacrifice you. It's incomplete as a spiral where you come to life after you die. If the condition is for them to be incompatible while mixing with each other, there's no solution but to connect the two. Therefore, in the Yin I prepared their corpses, and in the Yang I prepared their daily lives."
"Ha, then this side is the corpse storage, and that side is their daily life? You are sure taking a lot of care with useless things, there's no meaning to something like that."
"--- I believe I already said that there was meaning.
And then the man spotted the youth standing like a block of wood behind Shiki.
Enjoh Tomoe is still frozen after hearing the name Araya Soren.
"Yes, nothing like a reason exists. Even from the beginning it's impossible for a human to exist with two attributes at once. The dead and the living cannot exist together. In this paradoxical world there is no meaning that an individual can grasp." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This eventually allowed Araya to trace from this 64 hexagrams to the 8 Trigrams (The fundamental building blocks for the 64 hexagrams), then the 4 phenomena of Yin-Yang theory, and finally Yin-Yang itself (The Ryougi), represented by the building's two halves containing activity/life and stillness/death. The complex on itself could have then gone even further and opened a path to the One. Araya only refrained due to the Counterforce's interference:

"--- Are you trying to open the road to the origin?
But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."
"--- The Counter Force is already acting. The fact that you are in this city. The man who came to rob an empty house for no reason, as if he was possessed by something. The woman who was assaulted and killed on this road that has never known such things in the past. I tried this hard to hide my activities, but the Counter Force has already acted three times.
But that is all. I will not be going any closer to the origin. The many failures I have experienced will not go to waste. There was a time when I didn't know of the power called the Counter Force and tried to open a path, but I couldn't fool its eyes. One time I attempted this with a way to overthrow the Counter Force itself, but it always appeared with strength greater that any I could bring to bear.
There is only one conclusion. I do not have the ability."
For the first time --- the voice carries a sound which is close to emotion. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

To sum it up, the complex has the same function of Araya's barriers to separate the inside from the outside, suspend conventional rules, enforcing Araya's own will and record and manage the cycle of life and death, but on a far larger scale. The building also encapsulated every possible interaction between the fundamental forces of Yin and Yang, acting as a microcosm of creation. This enhanced Araya's understanding of reality, on top of him gaining an understanding of how to manipulate spatial boundaries by merging his body with the structure of the building:

The man looks at the woman below him. With just that, the air in the lobby changed dramatically.
Was this what they meant when they said "the air froze over"?
The tranquil atmosphere disappears. As if the building itself was getting tense after welcoming its true owner.
The air in the lobby becomes tense.
A pressure that makes you wonder if space itself is not responding to the mage's killing intent and crumpling into itself.- Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This mansion was Araya Souren himself. Walls, floors, all the traditional boundaries of a building meant nothing to him.
He could exist anywhere within the mansion, and take control of any space. This was his realm, his domain. He could teleport instantly to any location within these grounds. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
"Ah, I still stick to that principle. But that's quite impressive. I had forgotten, this is your body, right? Your magical power is infused into the building, even the air. So you can manipulate the space as you please. I've essentially stepped into a giant spell. ... Hmph, with all that preparation, why were you cornered by Shiki to the point of almost getting killed?" # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
He shot a sharp glare at the bag on the floor, and it shattered into pieces. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Just as his consciousness governed his body, so too did he control the activities of the building itself with his awareness. # - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
"Ah, I still stick to that principle. But that's quite impressive. I had forgotten, this is your body, right? Your magical power is infused into the building, even the air. So you can manipulate the space as you please. I've essentially stepped into a giant spell. ... Hmph, with all that preparation, why were you cornered by Shiki to the point of almost getting killed?" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This greater understanding of the structure of the world, on top of the building being isolated from the outside (Meaning that the Counterforce and Gaia could not override his attempts at altering their domain) allowed Araya to experiment and finally delve into abstract reality warping. This resulted into him creating an infinite dimension, and set up abstract laws to define its working:

"There is no need for you to worry. She was not confined to a single room in the building. Instead, she was thrown into an infinite space that connects different spaces. The primary purpose of creating this distorted otherworld was to generate a closed loop. No matter what methods or shocks are used, she cannot escape the infinite darkness. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
"Ah, you have no mistakes. For you, a mage, this is the ultimate solution. But what if the premise itself is wrong? What if Shiki was not isolated in some room within this mansion, but isolated within the mansion itself? A barrier that has reached the realm of magic, known as spatial isolation. It's a divine feat that only you, an expert in barriers, could accomplish. Those confined within the closed loop, the Möbius Ring of isolation, cannot escape from within. Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that."
An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Before anyone points it out, no. The dimension being described as a "closed loop" and "enclosed" does not disproves its infinity. The space itself is boundless and limitless, but is governed by abstract rules that function to isolate its contents from the outside world. The infinite nature of the space means there are no physical boundaries, while the functional rules, such as the Möbius Ring structure and the concept of spatial isolation, create an environment where escape is impossible.

However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:

Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

However, when Ryougi killed him, Araya had no more spare bodies to anchor his soul to the material world. This means that he will go into Akasha with his self awareness and mind intact due to his immortality. KnK actually mentions that Araya had never actually experienced death prior to that:

Of course, Araya Souren had not prepared identical bodies in advance in case he died, like some kind of puppet master. In fact, he has never experienced death at all. Though his body has rotted and crumbled to dust from age several times, his consciousness alone survived unbroken. Araya Souren has remained a solitary existence through to the bitter end. Therefore, there was no refuge to flee to should his current body be ruined. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This is important, as remember that even Tohno and Ryougi could only actually unlock their MEoDP by experiencing death with their mind through their near-death experiences. Ryougi was capable of reading abstract concepts like time during her experience, and she eventually became able to grasp Death with her brain:

"Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
Ryougi Shiki acquired this power after spending two years in a comatose state and contacted " " (Kara) for a prolonged period of time. Shiki's body already had the ability to perceive the Lines of Death, the accident merely awakened this power. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Others], p.035-036

Likewise, Araya, by reading abstract concepts with his mind and being in direct contact with Zero, will almost definitely be able to gain full mastery of Stillness, applying it to an abstract level.

For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:

Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

Stillness is the balance and the empty boundary between contradicting dualities such as life and death, destruction and creation, etc. Ensuring that the cosmic order remains intact. This further ties into the number Zero being the transitional state between positives and negatives values, while Stillness is the transition between potential and actualization. This also explains the Yin-Yang parallel between Ryougi and Araya: The One (Ryougi-Yang) is the active source of existence and the underlying unity behind all things, while Stillness (Araya-Yin) is the passive backdrops under which the One operates and that regulates its infinite potential, allowing for its expression under a logical system, rather than being everything and nothing at once.

This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:

That which divides the inside from the outside, Kara no Kyoukai is his story.
Araya symbolizes the paradoxical spiral, the most important event in this tale.
Talking about the impossible, what Araya accomplished is like achieving the pinnacle within a field while being completely oblivious of even the name of this subject field. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

So TLDR: Araya started by being able to read Origins, and his constant quest to study reality and absorbing suffering allowed for the subconscious mastery of his bounded fields. To make an easy comparison, this is like when Tohno Shiki just got his MEoDP and became able to read the Lines of living beings and enact their Death, but still struggled with non-living objects. This barriers are the starting point of Stillness' power, making the user a world of its own that can impose boundaries and structure the rules of existence.

The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.

And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.

Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:

Ether Lump
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating “Nothingness.” Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like “True Magic” In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic’s———
Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

So the First is hinted to be capable of creating "Nothingness", as in, creating shapeless and raw potential that can be later guided and shaped into anything. This mirrors the Dyad allowing for the actualization of potentials and manipulating or creating this primordial state from which all forms arise.

Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:

At the beginning, the First changed all.
...Next, the Second recognized many.
...In answer, the Third showed the future.
...Tethered, the Fourth concealed itself.
And the final Fifth had long since lost its significance. - Mahoutsukai no Yoru

"...At the beginning, the First changed all." clearly refers to the Dyad, at the beginning of creation, changing "all" (The One's wholeness and infinite potentiality) into something definable, which are then recognized by the Second as all different possible parallel worlds etc.

So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far. Before you mention it, Yumina and all of that shit has only showed up in Grand Order and recent times, no proof it applied to the older canon. And even if it did, it just means it was a subordinate lower aspect of Stillness. The broader point about its capabilities does not change.

And in case the Fate Clown Squad decides to butt in (God forbid), no. This does not apply to KnK Araya like you have dishonestly tried to make out to avoid addressing the argument. Araya in his prime powers hasn't appeared in KnK. It was Ryougi killing him that allowed him to reach either full mastery or very close to it. We know that Araya will never die, so he will achieve it eventually regardless.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Outer Gods? You mean the beings that were explicitly stated in GO to not actually be metaphysical, conceptual or immortal? lol.

Chaos shoots lightspeed beams, which are not going to tag someone way faster than Aoko, who could fight the sentient will of the cosmos. Araya reaching him could be difficult because of the space alteration stuff, so idk on his KnK iteration.

But Araya at his peak can apply boundaries and Stillness on an abstract level and blink:

Spoiler

Araya's Origin is Stillness/Suspension. It makes him specialized in equilibrium/balance and boundaries/division:


This Origin is also beyond Death's reach, as it represents the ultimate equilibrium and cessation of motion. Because of this, Stillness is considered "already dead" and "stopped", which makes it logically unable to be killed:


Ryougi could only kill Araya's physical body. Since, unlike his essence, it still participated in reality and had a faint thread that allowed its interaction with space-time:


His Soul, however, has achieved true immortality. Even after Shiki killed his last spare body, both him and Touko noted that he will simply wait into Akasha until he is cycled back into the material world in the next generation:


This is important, because Death is one of the most fundamental principles in TM, to the point that Void Shiki equated it with Akasha:


It can kill "all things without exceptions" by looking at the floor-plan of reality, and is the power that aligns the most with Ryougi's nature, as her Origin wishes for the death of all creation:


Furthermore, during their final conversation, Touko described Araya's Origin as "Zero" (Having no clear end or beginning) and noted that his desire was "Nothingness", bringing about a perfect realm of Death:


This means that Araya is fundamentally empty at his core, and his desire mirrors Void's desire in bringing about the death of all creation. In fact, Paradox Spiral features a noticeable Yin-Yang symbolic representation of him and Ryougi:


Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.

So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.

Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:


He has also been outright compared to Yama:


Yama is the God of the underworld and the ruler of Hell:


This comparison makes sense once you consider Araya's role in recording Death and being able to read someone's Origin, deciding their worth. This parallels Yama's role in keeping watch over the cycle of Death and Rebirth and dealing out judgement and karmic retribution. This is further backed up by Kishima Kouma referencing Araya in MB Act Cadenza:


Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:


With his Last Arc being named after Yama himself at that:


If we go back to Red Demon God, Kiri Nanaya realized that he couldn't match up to Kishima, who innately possessed "Death" within him. Kiri, despite his talent and fascination with killing, could only ultimately pursue Death, without actually achieving it. The only thing that could match Kouma would be something born broken, like him, a "master of Death." :


This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:


And Tohno was actually stated to have MEoDP as a natural ability, with his near death accident being merely the trigger for it:


Add the fact that the Nanaya personality only showed up after Tohno's pseudo death, him describing himself as the "guiding principle" of Tohno's body and as his "foundation", and Tohno being able to surpass the limits of his body when being guided by his mind and killing instincts, and it's clear that Tohno (And by extension Kouma) are Origin awakened beings.

Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:


Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."

This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:


So Araya is also a "Master of Death" like Kishima and Tohno/Nanaya, but he is the most superior variation of such a title, being the very embodiment of suffering and judgement. He is a static constant that controls the very framework under which both Death and Destruction operates.

Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:


They are described as "worlds" contructed from his body/Origin. They are conceptual constructs that casts stasis, suppression, existential dread, reverse physical damage and distort perception to make Araya impossible to sense. They are, for all intents and purposes, actual "worlds" separating Araya Souren from the outside, untouched by conventional rules and only imposing Araya's own rules and will upon anything that enters their domain. They are even called after the six heavenly realms in Buddhism:


Meaning that they symbolize Araya's ability to control and impose judgement on all of creation and its souls, just on a very localized scale.

Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:


This makes perfect sense if you look at other Origin awakened characters: The more they align with their true nature or gain knowledge about their Origin, the more powerful and versatile they become. By absorbing death and suffering as an immortal monster transferring his soul from body to body, and studying the origin and soul, Araya acted as a fundamental constant mirroring the static suffering of Hell and the role "cosmic" judge of Yama. This, overtime, resulted into Araya gaining an understanding of the cycle of transition and the fundamental truths governing existence. This understanding eventually manifested as his bounded fields, as the most basic pratical application of his Origin powers. It allowed Araya to exert his understanding of suffering and reality onto the external world.

This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:



This building not only took over Araya's role as an Hell that recorded Death and suffering in a closed loop, but it was also a temple of the Taiji, representing duality and balance. It also acted as a separate world untouched by natural physical laws:


The building even reached True Magic:


This, once again, proves the importance of Araya's Origin, as his inner landscapes qualifies for True Magic. We also know that it represents Taiji, further expanding into his role as a cosmic judge bringing balance into the world:


The building was structured by starting to replicate the 64 possible types of Death, which represents all the possible interplay of fundamental forces:


This eventually allowed Araya to trace from this 64 hexagrams to the 8 Trigrams (The fundamental building blocks for the 64 hexagrams), then the 4 phenomena of Yin-Yang theory, and finally Yin-Yang itself (The Ryougi), represented by the building's two halves containing activity/life and stillness/death. The complex on itself could have then gone even further and opened a path to the One. Araya only refrained due to the Counterforce's interference:


To sum it up, the complex has the same function of Araya's barriers to separate the inside from the outside, suspend conventional rules, enforcing Araya's own will and record and manage the cycle of life and death, but on a far larger scale. The building also encapsulated every possible interaction between the fundamental forces of Yin and Yang, acting as a microcosm of creation. This enhanced Araya's understanding of reality, on top of him gaining an understanding of how to manipulate spatial boundaries by merging his body with the structure of the building:


This greater understanding of the structure of the world, on top of the building being isolated from the outside (Meaning that the Counterforce and Gaia could not override his attempts at altering their domain) allowed Araya to experiment and finally delve into abstract reality warping. This resulted into him creating an infinite dimension, and set up abstract laws to define its working:


Before anyone points it out, no. The dimension being described as a "closed loop" and "enclosed" does not disproves its infinity. The space itself is boundless and limitless, but is governed by abstract rules that function to isolate its contents from the outside world. The infinite nature of the space means there are no physical boundaries, while the functional rules, such as the Möbius Ring structure and the concept of spatial isolation, create an environment where escape is impossible.

However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:


However, when Ryougi killed him, Araya had no more spare bodies to anchor his soul to the material world. This means that he will go into Akasha with his self awareness and mind intact due to his immortality. KnK actually mentions that Araya had never actually experienced death prior to that:


This is important, as remember that even Tohno and Ryougi could only actually unlock their MEoDP by experiencing death with their mind through their near-death experiences. Ryougi was capable of reading abstract concepts like time during her experience, and she eventually became able to grasp Death with her brain:


Likewise, Araya, by reading abstract concepts with his mind and being in direct contact with Zero, will almost definitely be able to gain full mastery of Stillness, applying it to an abstract level.

For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:


Stillness is the balance and the empty boundary between contradicting dualities such as life and death, destruction and creation, etc. Ensuring that the cosmic order remains intact. This further ties into the number Zero being the transitional state between positives and negatives values, while Stillness is the transition between potential and actualization. This also explains the Yin-Yang parallel between Ryougi and Araya: The One (Ryougi-Yang) is the active source of existence and the underlying unity behind all things, while Stillness (Araya-Yin) is the passive backdrops under which the One operates and that regulates its infinite potential, allowing for its expression under a logical system, rather than being everything and nothing at once.

This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:


So TLDR: Araya started by being able to read Origins, and his constant quest to study reality and absorbing suffering allowed for the subconscious mastery of his bounded fields. To make an easy comparison, this is like when Tohno Shiki just got his MEoDP and became able to read the Lines of living beings and enact their Death, but still struggled with non-living objects. This barriers are the starting point of Stillness' power, making the user a world of its own that can impose boundaries and structure the rules of existence.

The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.

And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.

Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:


So the First is hinted to be capable of creating "Nothingness", as in, creating shapeless and raw potential that can be later guided and shaped into anything. This mirrors the Dyad allowing for the actualization of potentials and manipulating or creating this primordial state from which all forms arise.

Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:


"...At the beginning, the First changed all." clearly refers to the Dyad, at the beginning of creation, changing "all" (The One's wholeness and infinite potentiality) into something definable, which are then recognized by the Second as all different possible parallel worlds etc.

So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far. Before you mention it, Yumina and all of that shit has only showed up in Grand Order and recent times, no proof it applied to the older canon. And even if it did, it just means it was a subordinate lower aspect of Stillness. The broader point about its capabilities does not change.

And in case the Fate Clown Squad decides to butt in (God forbid), no. This does not apply to KnK Araya like you have dishonestly tried to make out to avoid addressing the argument. Araya in his prime powers hasn't appeared in KnK. It was Ryougi killing him that allowed him to reach either full mastery or very close to it. We know that Araya will never die, so he will achieve it eventually regardless.

wow, crazy.

“単純な数値比べなら、物語中最高の性能。”"Simply in terms of a numerical comparison , her capabilities are the highest in the story.”

It was Ryougi killing him that allowed him to reach either full mastery or very close to it. We know that Araya will never die, so he will achieve it eventually regardless.

what? your takes are so bad,I randomly scrolled on beasts lair and saw a few users making fun of you
when is this implied in the story
are you real

 

[Wankbreaker]

the quote is in reference to fujino, btw

 

[HyperZero95]

“単純な数値比べなら、物語中最高の性能。”"Simply in terms of a numerical comparison , her capabilities are the highest in the story.”

Yes, numerical comparison. The capabilities of the stronger KnK characters are all abstract, meaning they ignore numerical comparisons entirely. God's Word can edit the code of reality with unified language, Ryougi can kill all things by targeting the abstract flaws permitting their existence, etc. This doesn't really mean anything. Araya can no-sell her distortion with his barriers and erase her from existence. Not to mention his barriers can also reverse physical damage.

what? your takes are so bad,I randomly scrolled on beasts lair and saw a few users making fun of you

Cool? They are free to come here or somewhere else to contest me if they think my takes are so bad. But the fact no one ever tried so far is quite telling. Does not help that the few that tried like you has been completely humiliated to the point you resorted to rambing incoherently and not really debate the points.

Not sure why you think a bunch of people looking at me funny invalidates my arguments in any way. You do know that relying on what a bunch of people think is an actual logical fallacy, yeah? Not to mention I can easily reverse this on you, as I know a lot of people who don't take you seriously in any capacity and laugh at everything you say. Does that actually mean anything? Of course not. What matters is that I dismantled all of your points.

when is this implied in the story
are you real

In the......Massive and detailed explanation I gave you in my previous post? Could you actually address the argument at hand instead of being amazed at someone writing something that requires a bit more effort than usual to piece together?

Araya grows more capable the more he gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and the more he acts as the embodiment of suffering. Him recording Death in the material world allowed him to subconsciously master bounded fields to an impossible level so that he could exert his understanding of reality and his will on a very localized scale. In his complex, he brought the concept to a higher scale, while also encapsulating how creation is structured with the Taiji. He became able to manipulate space thanks to fusing his body with the building and then its scale allowed him to understand more about reality and create an infinite dimension that he applied abstract rules to. So we already know that Araya was delving into abstract reality warping within his complex. And he still lacked insight into the actual abstract world at that point, as seen by how he underestimated MEoDP. After Ryougi killed him, he had no more spare bodies to anchor him into the material world, so he goes into Akasha, and both him and Touko acknowledge he will come back into the next generation. You are telling me that Araya coming directly in contact with the abstract and his Origin is not going to let him master Stillness, even though Tohno and Ryougi unlocked MEoDP through the same experience? lol.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes, numerical comparison. The capabilities of the stronger KnK are all abstract, meaning they ignore numerical comparisons entirely. God's Word can edit the code of reality with unified language, Ryougi can kill all things by targeting the abstract flaws permitting their existence, etc. This doesn't really mean anything. Araya can no-sell her distortion with his barriers and erase her from existence. Not to mention his barriers can also reverse physical damage.

No? it just means that in overall stats, she has the highest ability. nothing anywhere implies what you’re saying, because every relevant KNK character according to you would ignore the entry on her profile. not to mention the statement says “to put it simply” in terms of a numerical comparison.

her clairvoyance ignores any barriers he would try to make, as soon as she detects araya, he would be twisted.

Cool? They are free to come here or somewhere else to contest me if they think my takes are so bad. But the fact no one ever tried so far is quite telling. Does not help that the few that tried like you has been completely humiliated to the point you resorted to rambing incoherently and not really debate the points.

Not sure why you think a bunch of people looking at me funny invalidates my arguments in any way. You do know that relying on what a bunch of people think is an actual logical fallacy, yeah? Not to mention I can easily reverse this on you, as I know a lot of people who don't take you seriously in any capacity and laugh at everything you say. Does that actually mean anything? Of course not. What matters is that I dismantled all of your points.

you’ve actually not responded to the recent posts i made in any capacity

In the......Massive and detailed explanation I gave you in my previous post? Could you actually address the argument at hand instead of being amazed at someone writing something that requires a bit more effort than usual to piece together?

please cite where any of that implies this

 

[Wankbreaker]

You are telling me that Araya coming directly in contact with the abstract and his Origin is not going to let him master Stillness, even though Tohno and Ryougi unlocked MEoDP through the same experience? lol.

They are 2 different abilities?

 

[HyperZero95]

No? it just means that in overall stats, she has the highest ability. nothing anywhere implies what you’re saying, because every relevant KNK character according to you would ignore the entry on her profile. not to mention the statement says “to put it simply” in terms of a numerical comparison.

Yes in stats. But the stronger characters operates by concepts, which transcends numbers entirely. Ryougi destroyed Asagami's distortion with MEoDP. That contradicts it being the strongest ability overall. It is the strongest in numerical parameters, but it pales in comparison to abstract abilities like MEoDP. Energy, force, mass and all physical shit is sourced from and governed by abstract concepts, even the infinity of space is "limited" in a sense because it is dependant on finite numbers to exist, which are in turn dependant on the concepts that flowed out Akasha to exist.

Want an easy example? The novel explicitly goes on about that:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05

This is basically saying that infinite has a "finite" limit in the form of the abtract that sets boundaries for it. The infinity of space... To even have that, there must be rules set in place for space to even exist: the abstract. And therefore the limit of infinity.

Ryougi Shiki, who could see death, was an extraordinary existence. But merely killing people was a common ability. Modern weapons created by civilization were far more lethal.

The eason Ryougi Shiki was unique among even the mages wasn't because of her ability to kill living things—it was because she could kill things that shouldn't be killable, even intangible concepts.

"That which leads to death"—that was her power.

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

And other sources as well:

The constantly shifting, graffiti-like lines visible to Ryougi Shiki. The lines appeared on everything, and by slashing the lines with a knife, the object bearing the lines could be "killed". Since the lines posed no resistance, everything could be killed with the same ease. The Lines of Death are not the lines at which "an object can be easily cut apart", rather, they are the concept of longevity given form. Strictly speaking, it is not "tracing the lines causing the object to fall apart", but "ending the lifespan and killing the object". To put it into simpler terms, it is the erasure of existence rather than physical destruction.- Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Line of Death [Others], p.032

Here is God's Word with Unified Language being able to alter reality:

"If it were just a normal language, then yes. The fact that he can communicate with beasts and rocks doesn't mean that he's speaking to them directly. Instead, he speaks to the world itself. Think of it like an ontological hierarchy. As long as 'I' exist, there will always be an Aozaki Touko above me that exists within the world itself. If he were to use the Unified Language on me, I would have no way of resisting. If I were to reject his words, that'd be equal to denying the fact that I exist in this world. The very words he utter become an irreversible truth. God's Word is capable of placing all of creation under complete hypnosis. The memories that we humans possess, are also recorded by the world itself. It's a similar concept to the Akashic Records, but this is a wave phenomenon that exists on a lower level than it. You see, one of the possible methods of deciphering it is the Unified Language. That's why Kurogiri's able to gather memories that have already been forgotten. He isn't drawing their forgotten memories out of their brains, but rather from the record the world stores of the past. In the present day and age, he's the only person capable of accessing the various recordings of the past that our world has kept in store. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6

"This Place." "Inhibits." "Sight."


The voice reverberated through the chapel, which had now plunged into complete darkness. With a single word, the world turned invisible, devoid of light. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6

And here is Araya's barriers being conceptual constructs and "worlds" constructed from his essence:

Out of the three circles the mage possessed, she had just 'killed' the outermost circle."--- Ignorance." In an anxious manner the mage came forward. Another step, even though he approaches Shiki there is no change in Shiki.... The man's talismans have just shrunk from three to two. The mage clicks his tongue in exasperation. He hadn't considered the possibility that Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception would be so powerful. To think that she could kill a concept like a ward which had no form, or life, that kind of absolute power ---. - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05

A bound field divides what is inside from the outside. In order to construct a complete world from his own body, first Araya must complete himself. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

TLDR: Asagami's Distortion is the strongest ability from a physical/numerical standpoint. However, it is blatantly not the strongest ability overall, as MEoDP could effortlessly negate it once Ryougi could comprehend its death. Ryougi with MEoDP can see reality at its most fundamental level and see the threads that allows something to exist in the first place, regardless of their nature. MEoDP is the power to return all things to the One, erasing their existence. God's Word's Unified Language is a formless language that can speak to the true names of things and alter reality itself or the records of the world. Araya's barriers are concepts that imposes his soul's nature of stasis and balance. He can also erase someone from existence as seen with Enjou. What are numbers going to do against any of that?

If Asagami tries to bend Araya, his barriers would simply no-sell her Distortion, as they are a concept that exerts the concept of Stillness within their domain. There is nothing physical for Asagami to bend, while the barriers can easily cast stasis on her telekinesis. Then, Araya can just erase her from existence, or crush the space around her. Furthermore, Araya moved faster than Shiki could perceive, while Asagami struggled to keep a weaker version of Shiki in her line of sight. She is getting speedblitzed before even doing anything most likely.

you’ve actually not responded to the recent posts i made in any capacity

Because I already slapped the shit out of you and that other guy to the point you resorted to sending out of context screenshots in other websites. So there was no point in keeping the conversation going. I'm not going to entertain the same garbage for 3000 posts forever. You never conceded, you just either repeated yourself or misinterpreted what I said. There is no point in talking to a brick wall. Start actually debating in good faith, or get someone much smarter from your group, and maybe I could consider continuing the discussion.

please cite where any of that implies this

You are being lazy now. It's in the post in response to the other dude, under the spoiler block.

They are 2 different abilities?

As expected, you fundamentally did not understand my point. They are different abilities, but they are both Origin powers. The more you gain an understanding of your Origin, the more capable with its powers you become. Ryougi and Tohno unlocked the power to see Death after their mind came into contact with Akasha during their coma. Same with Araya after Ryougi "killed" him. He is in Akasha with his mind being able to directly observe how Stillness and the abstract world works. And, prior to this, he already learned to manipulate abstract rules on a basic level, with merely knowledge gathered from the material reality. There is no way he isn't mastering Stillness when he is cycled back into the material world. I suggest you to actually read what I say lol.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes in stats. But the stronger characters operates by concepts, which transcends numbers entirely. Ryougi destroyed Asagami's distortion with MEoDP. That contradicts it being the strongest ability overall. It is the strongest in numerical parameters, but it pales in comparison to abstract abilities like MEoDP. Energy, force, mass and all physical shit is sourced from and governed by abstract concepts, even the infinity of space is "limited" in a sense because it is dependant on finite numbers to exist, which are in turn dependant on the concepts that flowed out Akasha to exist.

Want an easy example? The novel explicitly goes on about that:



This is basically saying that infinite has a "finite" limit in the form of the abtract that sets boundaries for it. The infinity of space... To even have that, there must be rules set in place for space to even exist: the abstract. And therefore the limit of infinity.



And other sources as well:



Here is God's Word with Unified Language being able to alter reality:




And here is Araya's barriers being conceptual constructs and "worlds" constructed from his essence:





TLDR: Asagami's Distortion is the strongest ability from a physical/numerical standpoint. However, it is blatantly not the strongest ability overall, as MEoDP could effortlessly negate it once Ryougi could comprehend its death. Ryougi with MEoDP can see reality at its most fundamental level and see the threads that allows something to exist in the first place, regardless of their nature. MEoDP is the power to return all things to the One, erasing their existence. God's Word's Unified Language is a formless language that can speak to the true names of things and alter reality itself or the records of the world. Araya's barriers are concepts that imposes his soul's nature of stasis and balance. He can also erase someone from existence as seen with Enjou. What are numbers going to do against any of that?

all of these abilities have easily exploitable limits. MEODP needs to be at close range. Kurogiri cannot actually use it for combat.

also wow, that would really help araya against toukos random box demon, wouldn’t it?

regardless, she removes her “on-sight limitation later on”
“Tōko, that girl had a last surprise. She developed some sort of remote viewing spell in the end. That and her other power makes for a dangerous combination if left alone.”
“Remote viewing? Like scrying or clairvoyance? That is bad. She’d be able to hit you with a spell even if you were hiding behind cover. Wait—‘if left alone’?”

each of these characters would get twisted. also the statement just says foundation, doesn’t imply a literal physical thing, especially since her distortions have no form.

If Asagami tries to bend Araya, his barriers would simply no-sell her Distortion, as they are a concept that exerts the concept of Stillness within their domain. There is nothing physical for Asagami to bend, while the barriers can easily cast stasis on her telekinesis. Then, Araya can just erase her from existence, or crush the space around her. Furthermore, Araya moved faster than Shiki could perceive, while Asagami struggled to keep a weaker version of Shiki in her line of sight. She is getting speedblitzed before even doing anything most likely.

answered this above

Because I already slapped the shit out of you and that other guy to the point you resorted to sending out of context screenshots in other websites. So there was no point in keeping the conversation going. I'm not going to entertain the same garbage for 3000 posts forever. You never conceded, you just either repeated yourself or misinterpreted what I said. There is no point in talking to a brick wall. Start actually debating in good faith, or get someone much smarter from your group, and maybe I could consider continuing the discussion.

in other words:

you know you can’t back up your ridiculous claims

You are being lazy now. It's in the post in response to the other dude, under the spoiler block.



As expected, you fundamentally did not understand my point. They are different abilities, but they are both Origin powers. The more you gain an understanding of your Origin, the more capable with its powers you become. Ryougi and Tohno unlocked the power to see Death after their mind came into contact with Akasha during their coma. Same with Araya after Ryougi "killed" him. He is in Akasha with his mind being able to directly observe how Stillness and the abstract world works. And, prior to this, he already learned to manipulate abstract rules on a basic level, with merely knowledge gathered from the material reality. There is no way he isn't mastering Stillness when he is cycled back into the material world. I suggest you to actually read what I say lol.

roa would be the strongest character ever if this was true ,but he actually gets weaker.

either way, you’re applying 2 very different situations and equalizing them. also if this was true, arayas goal would be complete in all timelines, yet archetype says there’s a margin to the ending, and it isn’t clear.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Please put this energy and dedication into overhauling the character pages, I beg.
Edit: and not just the high tiers...

 

[Wankbreaker]

Please put this energy and dedication into overhauling the character pages, I beg.
Edit: and not just the high tiers...

do NOT let hyperzero touch the pages, he’s going to make tier 0 araya and shiki

 

[Tdjwo]

do NOT let hyperzero touch the pages, he’s going to make tier 0 araya and shiki

And ur going to make Arcueid on the same level as the root Mr. "Root is not Negative theology"

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Wank the Ataraxia trio (goats) to 1-B or something and I'll support whatever y'all do.

 

[Wankbreaker]

And ur going to make Arcueid on the same level as the root Mr. "Root is not Negative theology"

if you have a rebuttal to aog mages living alongside the root, using it directly for energy, and modern mages trying to get the understanding AOG mages had back, please tell me. you can’t live “alongside” something with negative theology