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also… why would the murder of someone else be a fate that awaits ryougi? a fate awaiting you would be referencing that you are the one that is being affected.
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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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please stop strawmanning and flinging accusations because you can’t attack the actual point. imade it clear here.
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to end this off:
50/50 chance against a holding back tohno, where he was just trying to get her to leave. (also, arcade unique loss quotes only exist for like 3-5 fights in the game)
Archetype mocks her, and shiki admits that no death exists within her
archetype has a win quote, shiki doesn’t.
Void was out for blood, and wanted arc to die. if she could kill archetype, she would have done it herself. but she couldn’t. and you think the weaker personality would have a chance, when she can lose to a holding back tohno
50/50 chance against a holding back tohno, where he was just trying to get her to leave. (also, arcade unique loss quotes only exist for like 3-5 fights in the game)
Archetype mocks her, and shiki admits that no death exists within her
archetype has a win quote, shiki doesn’t.
Void was out for blood, and wanted arc to die. if she could kill archetype, she would have done it herself. but she couldn’t. and you think the weaker personality would have a chance, when she can lose to a holding back tohno
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I posted the actual raw JP. You can TL it yourself, ask a friend, use MTL, or something else, I don't care. I called 'mistranslation', it's up to you to prove it after I provided both the raw and another translation.
Secondly, no. It is not the same thing. The cutscene itself is left ambiguous, and the JP is read in the same way: the outcome of the fight is a "murder of a god", inwhich both participants can be referred to as such.
You claimed with confidence that the concept of a "natural killer" was 100% an Origin.
Secondly... objectively wrong? If Ryougi dies, one would assume that Void dies with her. She's the "personality of the body", lol. Your own argument supports me. "the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will". So you're telling me that Void Shiki is bound to Ryougi's will... and Ryougi very explicitly wanted AE dead. Because of Void urging her. Thank you.
Once again, Ryougi's talk amounted to someone going "hmph, I'll show you you're wrong!". She outright admitted AE had no death on her, and the last time that happened (Araya, first encounter), she got massacred. Nor does it make sense for AE to lose in the first place - Ryougi is outright stated to be at a disadvantage against ranged opponents like Fujino's ranged attacks, and needed trial-and-error in order to view them, inwhich she was only able to do so due to an environmental advantage. She has no such luxury here.
Yes, there are multiple narrative statements for MEODP being able to kill anything... except for those who have "no concept of death", like AE herself. AE's statement about "bestowing death to what cannot die" is her pointing out what a foolish errand she's on.
Thirdly, I do not believe AE saying "How pleasant. Now - - - Cry and scamper as you can, you trash. Try and stop my grin with your death." is her 'acknowledging her capabilities'. At all. In the slightest. Lol.
Not entirely. Ryougi specifies that the dream is over "however the outcome" of the fight. That's a direct quote. One side constantly berating the other, and the other going "Hmph, I'll show you!" is not two people of equal standing.
If Ryougi dies, so does Void. That's how bodies work. She's the "personality of the body". Regardless of who wins or loses, a god dies. The Translation I provided renders your entire argument moot. "Killing anything, even if it is a god" when the author then later on goes to speak in KnK material about how that's NOT how MEODP works, and that she would be unable to kill a 'broken phone'. That's not a 'powerscaling word of god', That's 'nasu explaining how the ability works'. Genuinely a joke how you're attempting to tell me that someone openly weaker than a branch family member can kill a TYPE.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him. Ryougi is not even the most skilled Ryougi Clan Member in the modern age, she's not competing with the greatest Nanaya of all time when he's serious.
Yes, he uses greater power at times within the visual novel, but there are many times where he does NOT. Take the Yumizuka battle or in the hotel with the dogs. Or Ciel's route. "His instincts pop mid-fight sometimes" is not an argument.
You are correct, he said he would leave his usual style away that night. Which is to "destroy" someone who attempts to cause him harm. He specifically stated that he will not do so. He activated MEODP to "get her to leave".
Right! There's varying degrees to his abilities, and there are several routes where he DOESN'T tape into his instincts, and Nasu has to rely on a separate powerup for him instead, like being a Dead Apostle.
Dreamscape and TATARI Nanaya are not the real one, yes. But they are also not the one that appears in Tsukihime. Secondly, no. Nanaya does not act passive or meek in the original visual novel. He does in the remake, but if you want to use that, then we should bring up how Nanaya is VERY explicitly different from the other two mentioned. Pick your poison.
"Hard to kill" is hard-countered by "instant kill".
His kit is that he's a hivemind, and because of that, you need to kill all of his beasts at once. He's hard to kill. That is what is stated, that is what his main "strength" is. Him being capable of creating continental-level contructs is irrelevant when you're able to kill anything in one hit. His "exceptionally hard to kill and overwhelming numbers", as you say, amounted to:
- TWO beasts (implied to be a dragon and a unicorn)
- THREE crab-like creatures
- that's it lol
His only "overwhelming numbers" were the fodder-creatures that an Arcueid that could barely walk could easily wipe them all out with a swipe of her hand. There was a reason that he saw her and went "thank god you're injured."
Offensive measures that don't stack up to his defense, yes. Nero is strong, that is highlighted in the remake continuity, but in the original continuity he's consistently written to be a stepping stone.
Arcueid said that it would be "difficult" to defeat him with her full power, not "impossible". As we see in the Manga, she can bring out AE at any time. She would not allow herself to be caught in that, especially with her massive stat advantage.
Arcueid's ability scales with the "person". Nero is not a person. He's a hivemind. She would scale to his individual beasts. You don't even need to use WoG for this, this is basic common sense.
The "all evidence points to" card is referring to Tohno... wanting to kill things, inwhich the actual narrative implies it is a seperate entirely different thing. Ofwhich I provided. Your basing things on headcanon.
Your basis is "Tohno has a different set of circumstances explicitly, with the only similarities being 'they died'.".
Except he doesn't, because he breaks his brain with every usage and risks becoming a vegetable. He isn't meant to have those abilities. It was an accident that was not meant to happen. This is explicit.
| Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Unusual talent], p.184 |
| Originally, Shiki's eyes were meant to "see that which cannot be seen". However, after having two near death experiences he was somehow connected to (the Root), and his brain began to be able to comprehend death itself. Or to put it in other words, it is only by virtue of his mystic eyes and brain working together as a set that he is able to perceive death. By the way, Shiki's eyes turn blue when he intentionally tries to see death. Seeing as how blue is the color of pure eyes, it's likely that Shiki's eyes were originally of that type. |
Using Arcueid's quote as a "gotcha" when she has absolutely no idea about his past or abilities is not viable.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
He's also able to consistently dodge and evade Kouma's attacks. That same Kouma being able to overwhelm Tohno Shiki when he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves. Pick your poison, it's clear what his "intended level" is supposed to be. You have one statement in RDG that says they cannot dodge bullets (AFTER they had weakened btw), and earlier in that same story, the DHO preferred to use the Nanaya Clan (before they had weakened) as their "absolute war power" over the actual GODS in the organization.
I'll let you have this, I didn't pick up on this. However -
Very explicitly a flawed version lol.
I don't know about you, but someone who has murderous urges to the point that it's considered an "extreme personality shift" by Merem is considered a psychopath. Your argument is "they stem from Nanaya, who is his 'guiding principle", yet they very explicitly stem from TOHNO SHIKI.
Yes. Void is the "personality of the body". Ryougi is one of the "personalities of the mind". That unique prospect is why Ryougi is capable of fighting against those urges at all. The things she DOES get are literally "leaks".
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
"Dictated by their origins", and you're referring to headcanon.
The core concept of each character is the same. Regardless, the concept of the "foundation" is not a remake-only thing. Not to mention it's not made to fit with GO, but you're too stubborn to see that.
Your evidence is "they died" and "have urges for killing". I can't believe that Shirou's Origin is "saving people" now. Crazy, right? He has an urge for saving people.
You are completely misunderstanding and refusing to read what I am saying. Kiri lost. He was weaker than Kouma at the time. What the text absolutely implies is that if Kiri had NOT been weakened, Kouma's head would've exploded at bare minimum, his final strike. That's the narrative of the story.
While yes, Kouma was "born broken" and "possessed it from the beginning", but the text then IMMEDIATELY says "However, there is a HORIZON that one can reach" to match.
Secondly, no. RDG Kouma is physically much more powerful than Modern Kouma, with the latter only having hellfire as a "turning point."
I am talking about the narrative implication of the work. Ryougi was not brought into any of this.
Secondly, Jihan's entire speech outright implies/says that Kiri was weakened. Both Kiri and Jihan agreed on this. Lol.
Yes, I believe that traits the body possesses is entirely different from the soul. Those are two different concepts. One that you disagree with because... "muh urges".
Your "truth" says that a monk explicitly said to be mediocre in anything other than bounded fields is more powerful than the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Nasu does not say anything near as drastic as "Ryougi's hair is green". He states how something works, or how he views things at a certain time. The author can change his mind, yes, but going "HE'S INCREDIBLY STUPID!!!" when Void Shiki hasn't been intended to be or written in an omnipotent way ever since KnK - and from what I hear from native JP speakers, even the "omnipotent" part of THAT is dubious. Though I can't read JP myself, so I'll leave that aside for now.
Nasu is the author for KnK, Tsukihime, Fate Stay/Night, and Mahoyo. He is ONE of the writers for FGO. He is the founder of the company, with him and Takeuchi working on Tsukihime on their lonesome. The fact that you're saying that Nasu did not write Tsukihime or KnK is all I need to know.
Once again. "Talented", not "innate". If he was "born with" these things, he would have it from the start. Kiri had to dabble in things himself and discovered the rest of the Nanaya Arts by accident. Does that make him "born with death"? No, it doesn't. They're completely different concepts.
"Tried" does not say anything about the outcome in this context. All we know is that he "tried" to copy them, and the next time we see any form of Nanaya in action, he has the entire thing mastered. Do the math from there.
The... psychic ability explicitly said to be the "power of a human"? Is 'beyond the boundary of a human'?
Ryougi being summoned as a Servant is irrelevant. Plenty of Servants get more powerful with their own summoning, like Dantes as an example. Next.
The amount of cope you're having towards someone having character development is actually kind of funny.
Which means "that guy is strong". Camazotz was the strongest member of the strongest race on earth and he was, quite literally, empowered by the death of every other living being on the planet, minus the deinos, as to gain not power, but ENDURANCE to keep up with ORT. He was not stronger than ORT by any means, but every time he got ripped to shreds or mostly crystallized he could regenerate back, hence why their fight lasted millions of years.
He didn't win because he "just ripped out ORT's heart", he actively spent millions of years of trial and error to find one spot ORT was just slightly weaker and he could pierce it... Then more millions of years actually getting the timing to pull it off. Then, EVEN AFTER ALL OF THAT, ORT wasn't dead. it could have regenerated a new heart at any moment, Hence why Camatotz turned it into Mictlan's sun, that way ORT could feel it was around and didn't bother with making a new one.
Then, after ALL OF THAT, and after it COMMITED SUICIDE (because it took ANOTHER ORT to BEAT ORT), it just resummoned itself.
Unless you're telling me that "fodder" means "cannot blow up a universe with only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of their strength". The Type in question is outright said to be the most powerful thing in TM, capable of blowing up a galaxy while immensely nerfed beyond belief.
Not to mention AE is explicitly nerfed in FGO and can do everything that she could in MBAA. "Types are weaker", yeah, sure. Headcanon again.
Which would be great if the thing you were whining about was true to begin with. Using Remake as an example... FGO was written based on Remake lore, not the other way around lol.
Are you saying that Shirou's Origin is "Hero"? Do you know how he has UBW in the first place?
Inwhich that Nanaya is explicitly said to be a bad killer and nerfed. Cool, right?
Your evidence for this is that... she has something that the Samurai had. When Servants are explicitly said to be above humanity, stated more times than I can count. Or, take Ryougi losing to Servants in the Mooncell, which... lol? She isn't even native to that world. I guess we can say that every single Servant is above the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Or take Apocrypha, stating that the skill of heroes transcends humanity. The BARE MINIMUM, they're above humanity.
Your explanation was "Kiri had to be weakened in order to lose to Kouma."
No, I do not think Lio would beat a Nanaya, considering just them walking confuses the opponent so much that they get confused and believe an earthquake is happening/the ground itself is moving them.
It's almost like Nanaya is explicitly not an origin personality lol
You're saying that the MMC is equal to Origins, so yes. I believe you haven't. I still don't. When I said it, I said it respectfully, instead of shouting at you over and over again.
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cook. but I’ll also add, the KNK event shiki is the living shiki, she got incinerated by Goetia, she just came to the event setting somehow to momentarily avoid this before her body burns up.I posted the actual raw JP. You can TL it yourself, ask a friend, use MTL, or something else, I don't care. I called 'mistranslation', it's up to you to prove it after I provided both the raw and another translation.
Secondly, no. It is not the same thing. The cutscene itself is left ambiguous, and the JP is read in the same way: the outcome of the fight is a "murder of a god", inwhich both participants can be referred to as such.
You claimed with confidence that the concept of a "natural killer" was 100% an Origin.
Secondly... objectively wrong? If Ryougi dies, one would assume that Void dies with her. She's the "personality of the body", lol. Your own argument supports me. "the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will". So you're telling me that Void Shiki is bound to Ryougi's will... and Ryougi very explicitly wanted AE dead. Because of Void urging her. Thank you.
Once again, Ryougi's talk amounted to someone going "hmph, I'll show you you're wrong!". She outright admitted AE had no death on her, and the last time that happened (Araya, first encounter), she got massacred. Nor does it make sense for AE to lose in the first place - Ryougi is outright stated to be at a disadvantage against ranged opponents like Fujino's ranged attacks, and needed trial-and-error in order to view them, inwhich she was only able to do so due to an environmental advantage. She has no such luxury here.
Yes, there are multiple narrative statements for MEODP being able to kill anything... except for those who have "no concept of death", like AE herself. AE's statement about "bestowing death to what cannot die" is her pointing out what a foolish errand she's on.
Thirdly, I do not believe AE saying "How pleasant. Now - - - Cry and scamper as you can, you trash. Try and stop my grin with your death." is her 'acknowledging her capabilities'. At all. In the slightest. Lol.
Not entirely. Ryougi specifies that the dream is over "however the outcome" of the fight. That's a direct quote. One side constantly berating the other, and the other going "Hmph, I'll show you!" is not two people of equal standing.
If Ryougi dies, so does Void. That's how bodies work. She's the "personality of the body". Regardless of who wins or loses, a god dies. The Translation I provided renders your entire argument moot. "Killing anything, even if it is a god" when the author then later on goes to speak in KnK material about how that's NOT how MEODP works, and that she would be unable to kill a 'broken phone'. That's not a 'powerscaling word of god', That's 'nasu explaining how the ability works'. Genuinely a joke how you're attempting to tell me that someone openly weaker than a branch family member can kill a TYPE.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him. Ryougi is not even the most skilled Ryougi Clan Member in the modern age, she's not competing with the greatest Nanaya of all time when he's serious.
Yes, he uses greater power at times within the visual novel, but there are many times where he does NOT. Take the Yumizuka battle or in the hotel with the dogs. Or Ciel's route. "His instincts pop mid-fight sometimes" is not an argument.
You are correct, he said he would leave his usual style away that night. Which is to "destroy" someone who attempts to cause him harm. He specifically stated that he will not do so. He activated MEODP to "get her to leave".
Right! There's varying degrees to his abilities, and there are several routes where he DOESN'T tape into his instincts, and Nasu has to rely on a separate powerup for him instead, like being a Dead Apostle.
Dreamscape and TATARI Nanaya are not the real one, yes. But they are also not the one that appears in Tsukihime. Secondly, no. Nanaya does not act passive or meek in the original visual novel. He does in the remake, but if you want to use that, then we should bring up how Nanaya is VERY explicitly different from the other two mentioned. Pick your poison.
"Hard to kill" is hard-countered by "instant kill".
His kit is that he's a hivemind, and because of that, you need to kill all of his beasts at once. He's hard to kill. That is what is stated, that is what his main "strength" is. Him being capable of creating continental-level contructs is irrelevant when you're able to kill anything in one hit. His "exceptionally hard to kill and overwhelming numbers", as you say, amounted to:
Please note that each bullet point was a "stage". He did not send those all at once. He sent two beasts, then three once those two were destroyed.
- TWO beasts (implied to be a dragon and a unicorn)
- THREE crab-like creatures
- that's it lol
His only "overwhelming numbers" were the fodder-creatures that an Arcueid that could barely walk could easily wipe them all out with a swipe of her hand. There was a reason that he saw her and went "thank god you're injured."
Offensive measures that don't stack up to his defense, yes. Nero is strong, that is highlighted in the remake continuity, but in the original continuity he's consistently written to be a stepping stone.
Arcueid said that it would be "difficult" to defeat him with her full power, not "impossible". As we see in the Manga, she can bring out AE at any time. She would not allow herself to be caught in that, especially with her massive stat advantage.
Arcueid's ability scales with the "person". Nero is not a person. He's a hivemind. She would scale to his individual beasts. You don't even need to use WoG for this, this is basic common sense.
The "all evidence points to" card is referring to Tohno... wanting to kill things, inwhich the actual narrative implies it is a seperate entirely different thing. Ofwhich I provided. Your basing things on headcanon.
Your basis is "Tohno has a different set of circumstances explicitly, with the only similarities being 'they died'.".
Except he doesn't, because he breaks his brain with every usage and risks becoming a vegetable. He isn't meant to have those abilities. It was an accident that was not meant to happen. This is explicit.
Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Unusual talent], p.184 Originally, Shiki's eyes were meant to "see that which cannot be seen". However, after having two near death experiences he was somehow connected to (the Root), and his brain began to be able to comprehend death itself. Or to put it in other words, it is only by virtue of his mystic eyes and brain working together as a set that he is able to perceive death.
By the way, Shiki's eyes turn blue when he intentionally tries to see death. Seeing as how blue is the color of pure eyes, it's likely that Shiki's eyes were originally of that type.
Using Arcueid's quote as a "gotcha" when she has absolutely no idea about his past or abilities is not viable.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
He's also able to consistently dodge and evade Kouma's attacks. That same Kouma being able to overwhelm Tohno Shiki when he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves. Pick your poison, it's clear what his "intended level" is supposed to be. You have one statement in RDG that says they cannot dodge bullets (AFTER they had weakened btw), and earlier in that same story, the DHO preferred to use the Nanaya Clan (before they had weakened) as their "absolute war power" over the actual GODS in the organization.
I'll let you have this, I didn't pick up on this. However -
Very explicitly a flawed version lol.
I don't know about you, but someone who has murderous urges to the point that it's considered an "extreme personality shift" by Merem is considered a psychopath. Your argument is "they stem from Nanaya, who is his 'guiding principle", yet they very explicitly stem from TOHNO SHIKI.
Yes. Void is the "personality of the body". Ryougi is one of the "personalities of the mind". That unique prospect is why Ryougi is capable of fighting against those urges at all. The things she DOES get are literally "leaks".
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
"Dictated by their origins", and you're referring to headcanon.
The core concept of each character is the same. Regardless, the concept of the "foundation" is not a remake-only thing. Not to mention it's not made to fit with GO, but you're too stubborn to see that.
Your evidence is "they died" and "have urges for killing". I can't believe that Shirou's Origin is "saving people" now. Crazy, right? He has an urge for saving people.
You are completely misunderstanding and refusing to read what I am saying. Kiri lost. He was weaker than Kouma at the time. What the text absolutely implies is that if Kiri had NOT been weakened, Kouma's head would've exploded at bare minimum, his final strike. That's the narrative of the story.
While yes, Kouma was "born broken" and "possessed it from the beginning", but the text then IMMEDIATELY says "However, there is a HORIZON that one can reach" to match.
Secondly, no. RDG Kouma is physically much more powerful than Modern Kouma, with the latter only having hellfire as a "turning point."
I am talking about the narrative implication of the work. Ryougi was not brought into any of this.
Secondly, Jihan's entire speech outright implies/says that Kiri was weakened. Both Kiri and Jihan agreed on this. Lol.
Yes, I believe that traits the body possesses is entirely different from the soul. Those are two different concepts. One that you disagree with because... "muh urges".
Your "truth" says that a monk explicitly said to be mediocre in anything other than bounded fields is more powerful than the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Nasu does not say anything near as drastic as "Ryougi's hair is green". He states how something works, or how he views things at a certain time. The author can change his mind, yes, but going "HE'S INCREDIBLY STUPID!!!" when Void Shiki hasn't been intended to be or written in an omnipotent way ever since KnK - and from what I hear from native JP speakers, even the "omnipotent" part of THAT is dubious. Though I can't read JP myself, so I'll leave that aside for now.
Nasu is the author for KnK, Tsukihime, Fate Stay/Night, and Mahoyo. He is ONE of the writers for FGO. He is the founder of the company, with him and Takeuchi working on Tsukihime on their lonesome. The fact that you're saying that Nasu did not write Tsukihime or KnK is all I need to know.
Once again. "Talented", not "innate". If he was "born with" these things, he would have it from the start. Kiri had to dabble in things himself and discovered the rest of the Nanaya Arts by accident. Does that make him "born with death"? No, it doesn't. They're completely different concepts.
"Tried" does not say anything about the outcome in this context. All we know is that he "tried" to copy them, and the next time we see any form of Nanaya in action, he has the entire thing mastered. Do the math from there.
The... psychic ability explicitly said to be the "power of a human"? Is 'beyond the boundary of a human'?
Ryougi being summoned as a Servant is irrelevant. Plenty of Servants get more powerful with their own summoning, like Dantes as an example. Next.
The amount of cope you're having towards someone having character development is actually kind of funny.
Which means "that guy is strong". Camazotz was the strongest member of the strongest race on earth and he was, quite literally, empowered by the death of every other living being on the planet, minus the deinos, as to gain not power, but ENDURANCE to keep up with ORT. He was not stronger than ORT by any means, but every time he got ripped to shreds or mostly crystallized he could regenerate back, hence why their fight lasted millions of years.
He didn't win because he "just ripped out ORT's heart", he actively spent millions of years of trial and error to find one spot ORT was just slightly weaker and he could pierce it... Then more millions of years actually getting the timing to pull it off. Then, EVEN AFTER ALL OF THAT, ORT wasn't dead. it could have regenerated a new heart at any moment, Hence why Camatotz turned it into Mictlan's sun, that way ORT could feel it was around and didn't bother with making a new one.
Then, after ALL OF THAT, and after it COMMITED SUICIDE (because it took ANOTHER ORT to BEAT ORT), it just resummoned itself.
Unless you're telling me that "fodder" means "cannot blow up a universe with only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of their strength". The Type in question is outright said to be the most powerful thing in TM, capable of blowing up a galaxy while immensely nerfed beyond belief.
Not to mention AE is explicitly nerfed in FGO and can do everything that she could in MBAA. "Types are weaker", yeah, sure. Headcanon again.
Which would be great if the thing you were whining about was true to begin with. Using Remake as an example... FGO was written based on Remake lore, not the other way around lol.
Are you saying that Shirou's Origin is "Hero"? Do you know how he has UBW in the first place?
Inwhich that Nanaya is explicitly said to be a bad killer and nerfed. Cool, right?
Your evidence for this is that... she has something that the Samurai had. When Servants are explicitly said to be above humanity, stated more times than I can count. Or, take Ryougi losing to Servants in the Mooncell, which... lol? She isn't even native to that world. I guess we can say that every single Servant is above the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Or take Apocrypha, stating that the skill of heroes transcends humanity. The BARE MINIMUM, they're above humanity.
Your explanation was "Kiri had to be weakened in order to lose to Kouma."
No, I do not think Lio would beat a Nanaya, considering just them walking confuses the opponent so much that they get confused and believe an earthquake is happening/the ground itself is moving them.
It's almost like Nanaya is explicitly not an origin personality lol
You're saying that the MMC is equal to Origins, so yes. I believe you haven't. I still don't. When I said it, I said it respectfully, instead of shouting at you over and over again.
her being a servant in the first place implies that she died there, so he has to pick his poison
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Ah there we have it, the inevitable incoherent breakdown of my opponent, just yet another Fate/Nanaya fanboy who tries to go against the most knowledgeable KnK debater on the site despite having not even read the novel. Pity.
It literally say the same exact thing as the official translation, just worded slightly different. The amount of mental gymnastic you are going through to deny a very simple statement is impressive and defies even my wildest expectations. If there is one thing you are actually good in, it's definitely coping.
I already explained all of this. After slaughtering Tohno, Ryougi confronts Archetype, who reveals that she was Void's target. Ryougi notices that AE has no Death in her. AE talks to Void and then acknowledges Ryougi, stating that she has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which she finds insulting. But since Tohno is dead, she is pissed, and thus decides to take it seriously and try to kill her, taunting her to stop her smile with the Death she brings. Ryougi so replies back and assures her that nothing can escape her MEoDP. As long as something is alive, she can kill even gods. The guidebook references this last catchphrase right as the fight begins and the game blacks out. It's confirming that Ryougi won, proving her assertion that she can kill anything as long as it lives, which has mountains of narrative backing that I can't help but notice you have completely ignored. Could it be that those statements held uncomfortable truths for you to deal with?
Yes. I don't envy the symptoms of vertigo you must be experiencing right now for finding something within that sentence that could be interpreted as " I had this vision of a user who will barge in the thread and I must say in advance that he has not read the series".
Are you saying that Ryougi dying to Archetype would count as her killing a god because if she gets killed, Void dies with her? That makes no sense if that's what you're saying. That's like saying if I have multiple personalities and die to something, I'm a murderer because I died... and the other personality as a result? lol
Besides, I have never said "Objectively wrong" to anything related to this particular topic of AE vs Ryougi, so I have frankly no idea what you are even replying to here.
She is bound to Shiki's will, yes. But Void can still send urges to her, including her murder instincts. Ryougi can resist them if she cares enough. But this time, she subconsciously agreed with the urges of killing AE. This is why she told Tohno that this night was special, as "she" was the one urging her on.
She said she has no death, then both acknowledge Ryougi can kill her regardless by instilling death.
Yes, because Araya is significantly stronger and faster than Archetype.
Unfortunately for Archetype, Ryougi at this point doesn't need trial and error for things, as her eyes are perfected now and can kill all things "without exception" according to Void:
In fact, even prior to the Epilogue, she already tapped into the non-local variation of MEoDP of Balor, as she destroyed the abstract boundaries sustaining Araya's infinite dimension:
She destroyed the abstract boundaries that are not physically located in space, but just exists as universal truths/laws that govern how Araya's dimension works. That's why the novel says "non-existent" limit, as in, it doesn't physically exist in space due to being abstract. Touko then further confirms that Ryougi can kill formless and abstract concepts:
You know what that means, right? If Shiki's MEoDP destroyed abstract concepts that have no form and don't physically exist in space, it means that the only way she could do that is by thinking them out of existence. As you can only think about the abstract and cannot physically locate it in space. Hence she started tapping into the perfected MEoDP used by Balor, to which she would then become more used to overtime, until comprehension isn't an issue anymore by the time of the Epilogue, as Void stated she can kill all things with no exceptions.
So she would just kill any ranged attack from Archetype, and think away her reality warping just like she thinked away Araya's infinite dimension.
You clearly haven't read any of the statements I sent if this is all you could understand. Allow me to repost them:
I don't really care if you fail to comprehend them even this second time. So I expect some actual counterargument now. Curious at how you'll prove that Archetype is omnipotent and doesn't rely on anything for her existence.
You're ignoring her acknowledging she can instill death.
She's shit talking. She may be confident she can win, but nothing implies she thinks it'll be a stomp. Are you saying two relative combatants never shit talk each other?
You are making distinctions without differences and arbitrarily affirming that AE's shit talk is more valid than Ryougi's shit talk. Besides, Ryougi saying this ends regardless of the outcome actually supports the notion they are comparable if anything, as the outcome is supposedly uncertain for her.
The franchise I read renders the vast majority of your takes moot.
Dear god, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. First off, all that Nasu said is that Shiki kills anything she perceives as "alive". Meaning that a broken phone cannot be killed because it is already dead to her, as its meaning ceased to be and is thus useless. Iirc there is even another statement where he says that Ryougi perceives anything interacting with reality as something she can kill, regardless of if they are alive or undead. But that's irrelevant, as I'm not interested in external comments from someone notoriously unreliable.
Second, not how MEoDP works? Say it to this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
So here is is how MEoDP works according to the story itself, not an idiot who is laughed off by the Fate/Zero's team and literally got asked in Q&As the reason he makes nonsensical statements: They observe the floor-plan of reality, allowing Ryougi to see and destroy the flaws holding an object together that traces back to Akasha. No matter how complex and diversified something is, it has a thread that permits its existence and connects it to Akasha. As long as something has limits in any capacity, Ryougi can find this limit and "cut" it. This extends to abstract and formless concepts as well. The only thing that Ryougi cannot kill are actually limitless and perfect existences like Akasha itself.
Now, the question is, is Archetype a perfect existence that relies on nothing but itself to exist? And the answer is no, as she is sourced from the Spiral of Origin. The Sarira in Araya's left arm where outright removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth, making them superior to simply not having a concept of Death in Gaia's reality. Yet, Ryougi could have killed even those, as they have cause for their existence at the end of the day (The enlightenment of a saint) and are physical objects with a history. Same thing for Araya's physical body, despite his essence being completely immortal in its truest sense.
Archetype has a physical body that physically moves and interacts with reality, with a cause for her overall existence. Meaning that Ryougi can kill her. The end.
No, that's Nasu spouting bullshit and fanboys like you wanking it as words of truth until it fits your agenda, instead of outright admitting from the start he is unreliable. Besides, Nasu did not even say what you meant. That's your poor misinterpretation of his words.
The only joke is you ignoring how Asagami is an absurd Origin awakened outlier among her family members who needs an entire week to bend a normal human's arm, that Ryougi was not at full power against Asagami and that this non-full power Ryougi was still significantly above Asagami.
His usual style is him being benign, hence he tried to introduce himself to Ryougi or whatever. Once he saw that she wasn't having it and was only interested to kill him, he took off his glasses and stated he will leave his usual style (Being benign) aside, as Ryougi openly wanted to harm him, hence he decided to "destroy her". Too bad he failed, as he was up against someone way out of his league.
Ryougi is the physical manifestation of the One, who has the potential of using all possible powers to a perfect extent should she gain knowledge of them (Like with MEoDP or Self Hypnosis), she is definitely surpassing the embodiment of just one of the countless concepts derived from her essence.
The Yumizuka fight? You mean the fight where Tohno would randomly blitz her until he reigned in his instincts again? Sure. The dogs were beings that he could and did defeat on his own.
He was hindered by the mental conflict with Roa in the Ciel Route. And prior to that? He matched Roa while noting that his body was moving on its own, while feeling the same instinct he was experiencing while he killed Arcueid at the beginning.
LMAO. So he used a lethal ability to make someone leave non-lethally? Do you even hear yourself? Or are you saying that Ryougi would get scared by the oh great Tohno and ran away at the sight of his MEoDP? A MEoDP that is significantly inferior and more underveloped compared to hers at that.
He taps into his instincts in literally every single route.
No, but he acts still very differently from the actual Nanaya. He does act meek and passive in KT. In fact, I remember you so eagerly posting the scan of him being incredibly gentle, which is clearly different from the Original personality Nanaya.
Ignoring my argument regarding Nrvnqsr and his feats of offensively beating the shit out of Arcueid tier character. Concession accepted.
Oh, and of course his top tier beasts are lesser in number compared to the weaker ones, since they are far more powerful and requires a greater amount of lives to manifest. Furthermore, you're saying he only has a few top beasts and the rest are fodder but this is baseless.
He has fodder ones.
He has better ones that he used against Arcueid.
And then he has ones beyond that.
However, you're assuming the only ones he has that are beyond Arcueid is the few top-tier beats of his, when there could be several tiers higher than the ones Arcueid fought before you reach those best of the best ones. The reason he only sent out so few against her too is because he underestimated how much strength she has left. This is backed up by the fact Nrvnqsr though Arcueid was too weak to do anything, so he wouldn't have sent out big guns in any capacity. They were just superior to his absolute weakest ones like the dogs.
An Arcueid that could barely walk and use an ability that empowers her as physically above her opponent. Here are these "fodder creatures" severely injuring Powered Ciel, who barely manages to win:
Never said it would be impossible. I simply said Arcueid thinks defeating him wouldn't be easy due to how strong he is. You do know that Nrvnqsr defeated Red Arcueid in AC, who defeated Arcueid so easily she said "What? Dead already?", right?
I was comparing Nrvnqsr to normal Arcueid. Why bring up Archetype? lol. So you admit that Arcueid cannot beat him without resorting to summoning AE?
They are multiple lives. But they are all "Nrvnqsr Chaos". They are many, but one. As evident by his final form being one singular beast.
I...What? This isn't coherent in the slightest and is not even what I said.
I'll make it very clear for you, since you seem to struggle having basic information relayed to you:
-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point.
It's an accident because people aren't meant to awaken their Origins. Him "breaking" his brain is the result of trying to comprehend the death of things he is not supposed to comprehend as a living being. However, he gets more used to perceiving more esoteric forms of death as he uses the eyes overtime. As stated by Arcueid:
This is why in Tsukihime he nearly pass out from killing a hallway, but later on by the time of Melty Blood he can kill the metaphysical information of a Tatari and "concepts beyond human comprehension" according to Sion. What matters though is him having the ability to perceive Death's unique channel with his Pure Eyes at all. Of course there are degrees of mastery attached to it following that. You are ironically downplaying Tohno by an extreme amount with your arguments now.
Alright.....So.....You are saying that the Nanayas cannot compete with demons physically, but they are able to overcome them thanks to their skill and assassination tactics. All fine. Then you randomly say that if Kiri was in his prime, he would have smoked Kouma, something that Kiri himself explicitly said he has no hope to do. What's even the connection here? lol
Imagine using dream worlds as evidence. Kishima literally got weaker after Shiki survived his initial three strikes and diminished as his "image of Death" the more he survived against him. His power was entirely contigent on Shiki's mental perception.
Gods? What gods? If those so called gods are below people that find armed men a force to be reckoned with, then they are not that impressive, yeah?
You do realize that the Origin personality being the personality of the body, and the mind personality being capable of potentially resisting its urges if they have enough mental strength is universal to all Origin awakenings, right? The only thing Ryougi is unique in is that her Origin personality was awakened before the mind personality, when it's usually the opposite. But it has no bearing on her holding back her impulses.
He's a fictional personality in the sense he is part of the dream world that was conjured by his fears.
This is why in the real world, Tatari Nanaya, who, despite not being the real Nanaya, became a real entity in the real world, did not say he's a fictional personality, but Tohno's "guiding principle".
My bad on the second scan. It's not kid Nanaya, it's Nanaya openly saying that he's Tohno's foundation, meaning his origin, but he is not his past, aka he is not the boy from before the accident. He is the origin personality manifesting as his past child self in his mind for this last scene. This is actually MORE evidence that Nanaya is an Origin personality, so thank you for helping my case.
No, this is explictly what Origins are. They are the conceptual foundation of an individual, determining a lot of their traits, what kind of life the are going to be compatible with, their powers, etc.
No it's not the same. And the only one acting stubborn is you. Stop bringing up the remake in a discussion about the original series.
"-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point. "
Bruh, the text clearly states that Kiri’s final strike was a once-in-a-lifetime maneuver, only made possible because he created Kishima’s blind spot by gouging his eye out as a child. Kiri sensed his own inability to keep up with Kishima in a direct fight, which is why he executed this specific strike. And the strike would have penetrated his head, not "exploded his head". On top of that, hhis final strike instilled a sense of living into Kouma finally, making him even more powerful. Funny how that goes. After dying, the text simply said that the reason is died was because he couldn't bring himself to kill Kouma back when he was a child, nothing else.
That's just Kiri trying to find a silver lining in his situation. Even though he doesn't possess Death innately, he views it as a distant goal he might one day reach. This perspective reflects his lifelong pursuit of killing without ever truly mastering it. It's largely a form of self-delusion as he faces death. This is framed within the context of his once-in-a-lifetime final strike, which he hoped might allow him to overcome an otherwise invincible opponent.
Ah, so Kouma, after mastering martial arts, hellfire manipulation, and CRV, and finally feeling alive while seeking enlightenment, is somehow weaker than his untrained, emotionless self who lacked control over his supernatural Origin powers. Understood.
Is Jihan the doctor Kiri visited? The text indicates that after Shiki's birth, Kiri developed human emotions, shifting from a desire to "kill people" to a wish to "make people live." This change led him to retire from demon hunting, resulting in his family falling from the top and becoming a liability that needed to be eliminated. The discussion focuses more on Kiri's change in personality rather than his power.
The only power-related detail that stands out is the general claim that the Nanayas transition between generations before physical decline begins, ensuring that the next generation is already mature when the decline starts.
Since Shiki is still growing up, Kiri would be several years away from the onset of his physical decline.
They are the same thing, as stated in KnK, which you did not read. So not surprised you are talking out of your ass here too:
The mind resides in the brain, and the soul resides in the body.
"Muh, I debate series I haven't read"
See, this is why I know you have 0 knowledge of the source material and you are not approaching this in good faith. I went through the depths to prove Araya's superiority over Arcueid in my previous post, and you ignored it all entirely just to repeat the same debunked crap like a broken record. I would like my efforts to educate you to be reciprocated, thank you.
For starters, Araya is not just a monk, he is the embodiment of an abstract theory, a living monster that has achieved true immortality and gained "overwhelming power" from the anguish he accumulated overtime.
Secondly, he is only stated to be average when it comes to being a magus, which is vague. Even Aoko is said to be terrible as a general magus, in spite of her exceptional power for breaking things. Araya's own power is top class, as his Origin is only directly subordinate to Ryougi's, and he is stated to be above the entirety of the modern era in physical combat, which would include the organization similar to the Nanayas that trained Soujuurou Shizuki.
Thirdly, his natural talent for his bounded fields stems from his Origin. He literally accidentally and subconsciously mastered them simply due to them aligning with his nature and understanding of reality he has gained overtime. He then constructed his realm where he could experiment without interference from the Counterforce, and he literally made a second creation, an infinite dimension he could structure the rules of and gained full mastery over spatial boundaries. After Ryougi killed his body and his consciousness is sent into Akasha, allowing him to gain insight into the Dyad/Stillness in its truest abstract state, he will fully master his Origin powers, which are insanely beyond Archetype's.
Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks.
True, he says even dumber shit. It's embarassing really. There is a reason the Fate/Zero writes made fun of his statements.
I never mentioned Void Shiki being omnipotent. The strongest in the verse? Absolutely. Omnipotent? Nah. And the narrative would fall apart completely if she wasn't anything less or more than Nigh-omnipotent.
With that being said, what does that have anything to do with Nasu making incorrect statements on basic lore and characterization, beyond mere power levels?
You forgot that he is also a compulsive liar, as he openly admitted.
And all I need to know is that there is indeed evidence that he either didn't truly write everything, or that he had some drastic mental decline over the years. But this is not truly relevant to the point. It's more so of a consequence of the objectively stupid claims he makes. The point is that if an author says something that contradicts the series, his word is invalid. If he said Ryougi's hair was green, it's contradicted by the series and not valid. Simple.
He did have them from the start. He just didn't have the right trigger to become conscious of those abilities and actually use them.
Except nothing says that the version Nanaya uses is actually the complete version.
Are you ******* messing with me now? Read the story you wank so much at least:
The psychic are human powers that are actually outside the common boundaries of the human race. This has nothing to do with the Nanaya's physical abilities, which are clearly differentiated from their psychic abilities and are simply described as "trained to the limit". Meanwhile Shiki's body actually goes beyond its own limits to keep up with the superior mind enhanced by Origin awakening
Some. But the vast majority is weakened, Shiki would be among those, given that her feats completely ***** all over Servants. And I think I already made clear that I don't give a shit about her shitty discount GO depiction anyway.
There was no development. There was simply Shiki and Mikiya devolving into immature mockeries of their true selves. Character development needs to be consistent with the characters and the rules established within the narrative.
But what do you know? You haven't read the novel and you have got basic lore wrong that even anime only-watchers would find suspicious. And you think you have the audacity to tell someone who has read the novels 4 times that his interpretation of the story the narrative was explicitly going for is not contradicted in MF and GO because....Well, there is no because. There is just you grasping at straws, which is not going to work on me.
You do realize this is still just brick fighting, right? You just glorified it in hopes that it would look more impressive.
Wow, crazy man.
Blowing up a galaxy, but died to something Master Chief from Halo shrugged off.
Old Types could manipulate the fundamental rules that governed reality. New Types are bricks that dies to someone bricking harder.
This....Does not change my point in any capacity. It's still not supposed to be compatible with the original Tsukihime and Kara. I feel like your brain is on auto-pilot now from the desperation, and you are just saying random shit instead of saving whatever face left and concede.
Nameless isn't the same as the Shirou from SN. Nameless Hero's Origin being the embodiment of other nameless heroes would include the other Emiya.
Yes, cool how none of this is stated:
You ignored my entire argument about Ryougi's Self Hypnosis, her ability to mimick complex techniques like the Nanaya Martial Arts by merely watching them, the mechanics of the Ryougi's powerset, SH bringing out someone's true nature and her connection to the source of all martial arts and nothingness itself. Concession accepted.
Ryougi's sword skills are also far beyond humanity due to representing the essence of the One itself and her becoming one with the source of all martial arts. Servants meanwhile are total fodders who have worse skill showings than Shizuki or Kiri Nanaya.
You just exposed yourself for being a shitposter with this. You don't care about being objective. You don't care about being accurate. You just care about wanking a bunch of dudes who died to the weakest version of someone that literally said Araya embodied his source of power.
Ryougi in a container called Monster. Summoned by a vague wish granting device. CCC literally seal the nail on the coffin for Servants, as it shows that fraction of Ryougi's essence obliterates them passively. Talk about a L.
Cool. Ryougi is the utmost peak of swordmanship possible in the entire franchise. She is one with Nothingness and her sword strikes embodies the essence of Akasha, granting them metaphysical properties rivaling MEoDP.
What in the actual ****? Dude, am I mentally taxing you this hard? This was YOUR explanation all this time. It's like the more you reply, the more you start to break down until you're entirely incoherent. Next I'll see you arguing with yourself outright
Cool fanfics, I'll but them for 4.2 bucks.
Not an argument. I don't even know why you replied here at this point.
Yawn, more coping and denial. Sit down, kid.
Also, how can you tell someone is "shouting" in a text-based discussion? Lmao
Come back when you actually read KnK/Tsukihime, and learn the amazing superpower of putting your bias aside and looking at the matter objectively.
It literally say the same exact thing as the official translation, just worded slightly different. The amount of mental gymnastic you are going through to deny a very simple statement is impressive and defies even my wildest expectations. If there is one thing you are actually good in, it's definitely coping.
I already explained all of this. After slaughtering Tohno, Ryougi confronts Archetype, who reveals that she was Void's target. Ryougi notices that AE has no Death in her. AE talks to Void and then acknowledges Ryougi, stating that she has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which she finds insulting. But since Tohno is dead, she is pissed, and thus decides to take it seriously and try to kill her, taunting her to stop her smile with the Death she brings. Ryougi so replies back and assures her that nothing can escape her MEoDP. As long as something is alive, she can kill even gods. The guidebook references this last catchphrase right as the fight begins and the game blacks out. It's confirming that Ryougi won, proving her assertion that she can kill anything as long as it lives, which has mountains of narrative backing that I can't help but notice you have completely ignored. Could it be that those statements held uncomfortable truths for you to deal with?
Yes. I don't envy the symptoms of vertigo you must be experiencing right now for finding something within that sentence that could be interpreted as " I had this vision of a user who will barge in the thread and I must say in advance that he has not read the series".
Are you saying that Ryougi dying to Archetype would count as her killing a god because if she gets killed, Void dies with her? That makes no sense if that's what you're saying. That's like saying if I have multiple personalities and die to something, I'm a murderer because I died... and the other personality as a result? lol
Besides, I have never said "Objectively wrong" to anything related to this particular topic of AE vs Ryougi, so I have frankly no idea what you are even replying to here.
She is bound to Shiki's will, yes. But Void can still send urges to her, including her murder instincts. Ryougi can resist them if she cares enough. But this time, she subconsciously agreed with the urges of killing AE. This is why she told Tohno that this night was special, as "she" was the one urging her on.
She said she has no death, then both acknowledge Ryougi can kill her regardless by instilling death.
Yes, because Araya is significantly stronger and faster than Archetype.
Unfortunately for Archetype, Ryougi at this point doesn't need trial and error for things, as her eyes are perfected now and can kill all things "without exception" according to Void:
In fact, even prior to the Epilogue, she already tapped into the non-local variation of MEoDP of Balor, as she destroyed the abstract boundaries sustaining Araya's infinite dimension:
She destroyed the abstract boundaries that are not physically located in space, but just exists as universal truths/laws that govern how Araya's dimension works. That's why the novel says "non-existent" limit, as in, it doesn't physically exist in space due to being abstract. Touko then further confirms that Ryougi can kill formless and abstract concepts:
You know what that means, right? If Shiki's MEoDP destroyed abstract concepts that have no form and don't physically exist in space, it means that the only way she could do that is by thinking them out of existence. As you can only think about the abstract and cannot physically locate it in space. Hence she started tapping into the perfected MEoDP used by Balor, to which she would then become more used to overtime, until comprehension isn't an issue anymore by the time of the Epilogue, as Void stated she can kill all things with no exceptions.
So she would just kill any ranged attack from Archetype, and think away her reality warping just like she thinked away Araya's infinite dimension.
You clearly haven't read any of the statements I sent if this is all you could understand. Allow me to repost them:
MEoDP is the manifestation of the truth that all things are contingent on Akasha for their existence and can be ended by it at anytime. With the KnK novel clearly mentioning that the only thing that could not be killed by MEoDP would be something truly without limitations of any kind like " " itself:
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
I don't really care if you fail to comprehend them even this second time. So I expect some actual counterargument now. Curious at how you'll prove that Archetype is omnipotent and doesn't rely on anything for her existence.
You're ignoring her acknowledging she can instill death.
She's shit talking. She may be confident she can win, but nothing implies she thinks it'll be a stomp. Are you saying two relative combatants never shit talk each other?
You are making distinctions without differences and arbitrarily affirming that AE's shit talk is more valid than Ryougi's shit talk. Besides, Ryougi saying this ends regardless of the outcome actually supports the notion they are comparable if anything, as the outcome is supposedly uncertain for her.
The franchise I read renders the vast majority of your takes moot.
Dear god, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. First off, all that Nasu said is that Shiki kills anything she perceives as "alive". Meaning that a broken phone cannot be killed because it is already dead to her, as its meaning ceased to be and is thus useless. Iirc there is even another statement where he says that Ryougi perceives anything interacting with reality as something she can kill, regardless of if they are alive or undead. But that's irrelevant, as I'm not interested in external comments from someone notoriously unreliable.
Second, not how MEoDP works? Say it to this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
So here is is how MEoDP works according to the story itself, not an idiot who is laughed off by the Fate/Zero's team and literally got asked in Q&As the reason he makes nonsensical statements: They observe the floor-plan of reality, allowing Ryougi to see and destroy the flaws holding an object together that traces back to Akasha. No matter how complex and diversified something is, it has a thread that permits its existence and connects it to Akasha. As long as something has limits in any capacity, Ryougi can find this limit and "cut" it. This extends to abstract and formless concepts as well. The only thing that Ryougi cannot kill are actually limitless and perfect existences like Akasha itself.
Now, the question is, is Archetype a perfect existence that relies on nothing but itself to exist? And the answer is no, as she is sourced from the Spiral of Origin. The Sarira in Araya's left arm where outright removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth, making them superior to simply not having a concept of Death in Gaia's reality. Yet, Ryougi could have killed even those, as they have cause for their existence at the end of the day (The enlightenment of a saint) and are physical objects with a history. Same thing for Araya's physical body, despite his essence being completely immortal in its truest sense.
Archetype has a physical body that physically moves and interacts with reality, with a cause for her overall existence. Meaning that Ryougi can kill her. The end.
No, that's Nasu spouting bullshit and fanboys like you wanking it as words of truth until it fits your agenda, instead of outright admitting from the start he is unreliable. Besides, Nasu did not even say what you meant. That's your poor misinterpretation of his words.
The only joke is you ignoring how Asagami is an absurd Origin awakened outlier among her family members who needs an entire week to bend a normal human's arm, that Ryougi was not at full power against Asagami and that this non-full power Ryougi was still significantly above Asagami.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him.
His usual style is him being benign, hence he tried to introduce himself to Ryougi or whatever. Once he saw that she wasn't having it and was only interested to kill him, he took off his glasses and stated he will leave his usual style (Being benign) aside, as Ryougi openly wanted to harm him, hence he decided to "destroy her". Too bad he failed, as he was up against someone way out of his league.
Ryougi is the physical manifestation of the One, who has the potential of using all possible powers to a perfect extent should she gain knowledge of them (Like with MEoDP or Self Hypnosis), she is definitely surpassing the embodiment of just one of the countless concepts derived from her essence.
The Yumizuka fight? You mean the fight where Tohno would randomly blitz her until he reigned in his instincts again? Sure. The dogs were beings that he could and did defeat on his own.
He was hindered by the mental conflict with Roa in the Ciel Route. And prior to that? He matched Roa while noting that his body was moving on its own, while feeling the same instinct he was experiencing while he killed Arcueid at the beginning.
LMAO. So he used a lethal ability to make someone leave non-lethally? Do you even hear yourself? Or are you saying that Ryougi would get scared by the oh great Tohno and ran away at the sight of his MEoDP? A MEoDP that is significantly inferior and more underveloped compared to hers at that.
He taps into his instincts in literally every single route.
No, but he acts still very differently from the actual Nanaya. He does act meek and passive in KT. In fact, I remember you so eagerly posting the scan of him being incredibly gentle, which is clearly different from the Original personality Nanaya.
Ignoring my argument regarding Nrvnqsr and his feats of offensively beating the shit out of Arcueid tier character. Concession accepted.
Oh, and of course his top tier beasts are lesser in number compared to the weaker ones, since they are far more powerful and requires a greater amount of lives to manifest. Furthermore, you're saying he only has a few top beasts and the rest are fodder but this is baseless.
He has fodder ones.
He has better ones that he used against Arcueid.
And then he has ones beyond that.
However, you're assuming the only ones he has that are beyond Arcueid is the few top-tier beats of his, when there could be several tiers higher than the ones Arcueid fought before you reach those best of the best ones. The reason he only sent out so few against her too is because he underestimated how much strength she has left. This is backed up by the fact Nrvnqsr though Arcueid was too weak to do anything, so he wouldn't have sent out big guns in any capacity. They were just superior to his absolute weakest ones like the dogs.
An Arcueid that could barely walk and use an ability that empowers her as physically above her opponent. Here are these "fodder creatures" severely injuring Powered Ciel, who barely manages to win:
Never said it would be impossible. I simply said Arcueid thinks defeating him wouldn't be easy due to how strong he is. You do know that Nrvnqsr defeated Red Arcueid in AC, who defeated Arcueid so easily she said "What? Dead already?", right?
I was comparing Nrvnqsr to normal Arcueid. Why bring up Archetype? lol. So you admit that Arcueid cannot beat him without resorting to summoning AE?
They are multiple lives. But they are all "Nrvnqsr Chaos". They are many, but one. As evident by his final form being one singular beast.
I...What? This isn't coherent in the slightest and is not even what I said.
I'll make it very clear for you, since you seem to struggle having basic information relayed to you:
-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point.
It's an accident because people aren't meant to awaken their Origins. Him "breaking" his brain is the result of trying to comprehend the death of things he is not supposed to comprehend as a living being. However, he gets more used to perceiving more esoteric forms of death as he uses the eyes overtime. As stated by Arcueid:
This is why in Tsukihime he nearly pass out from killing a hallway, but later on by the time of Melty Blood he can kill the metaphysical information of a Tatari and "concepts beyond human comprehension" according to Sion. What matters though is him having the ability to perceive Death's unique channel with his Pure Eyes at all. Of course there are degrees of mastery attached to it following that. You are ironically downplaying Tohno by an extreme amount with your arguments now.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
Alright.....So.....You are saying that the Nanayas cannot compete with demons physically, but they are able to overcome them thanks to their skill and assassination tactics. All fine. Then you randomly say that if Kiri was in his prime, he would have smoked Kouma, something that Kiri himself explicitly said he has no hope to do. What's even the connection here? lol
Imagine using dream worlds as evidence. Kishima literally got weaker after Shiki survived his initial three strikes and diminished as his "image of Death" the more he survived against him. His power was entirely contigent on Shiki's mental perception.
Gods? What gods? If those so called gods are below people that find armed men a force to be reckoned with, then they are not that impressive, yeah?
You didn't make an argument here. You just said they stem from Tohno, even though they clearly do not and your own mentioning of Nanaya saying he is Tohno's "guiding principle" that he refuses to use proves this.
You do realize that the Origin personality being the personality of the body, and the mind personality being capable of potentially resisting its urges if they have enough mental strength is universal to all Origin awakenings, right? The only thing Ryougi is unique in is that her Origin personality was awakened before the mind personality, when it's usually the opposite. But it has no bearing on her holding back her impulses.
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
He's a fictional personality in the sense he is part of the dream world that was conjured by his fears.
This is why in the real world, Tatari Nanaya, who, despite not being the real Nanaya, became a real entity in the real world, did not say he's a fictional personality, but Tohno's "guiding principle".
My bad on the second scan. It's not kid Nanaya, it's Nanaya openly saying that he's Tohno's foundation, meaning his origin, but he is not his past, aka he is not the boy from before the accident. He is the origin personality manifesting as his past child self in his mind for this last scene. This is actually MORE evidence that Nanaya is an Origin personality, so thank you for helping my case.
No, this is explictly what Origins are. They are the conceptual foundation of an individual, determining a lot of their traits, what kind of life the are going to be compatible with, their powers, etc.
No it's not the same. And the only one acting stubborn is you. Stop bringing up the remake in a discussion about the original series.
"-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point. "
Bruh, the text clearly states that Kiri’s final strike was a once-in-a-lifetime maneuver, only made possible because he created Kishima’s blind spot by gouging his eye out as a child. Kiri sensed his own inability to keep up with Kishima in a direct fight, which is why he executed this specific strike. And the strike would have penetrated his head, not "exploded his head". On top of that, hhis final strike instilled a sense of living into Kouma finally, making him even more powerful. Funny how that goes. After dying, the text simply said that the reason is died was because he couldn't bring himself to kill Kouma back when he was a child, nothing else.
That's just Kiri trying to find a silver lining in his situation. Even though he doesn't possess Death innately, he views it as a distant goal he might one day reach. This perspective reflects his lifelong pursuit of killing without ever truly mastering it. It's largely a form of self-delusion as he faces death. This is framed within the context of his once-in-a-lifetime final strike, which he hoped might allow him to overcome an otherwise invincible opponent.
Ah, so Kouma, after mastering martial arts, hellfire manipulation, and CRV, and finally feeling alive while seeking enlightenment, is somehow weaker than his untrained, emotionless self who lacked control over his supernatural Origin powers. Understood.
Is Jihan the doctor Kiri visited? The text indicates that after Shiki's birth, Kiri developed human emotions, shifting from a desire to "kill people" to a wish to "make people live." This change led him to retire from demon hunting, resulting in his family falling from the top and becoming a liability that needed to be eliminated. The discussion focuses more on Kiri's change in personality rather than his power.
The only power-related detail that stands out is the general claim that the Nanayas transition between generations before physical decline begins, ensuring that the next generation is already mature when the decline starts.
Since Shiki is still growing up, Kiri would be several years away from the onset of his physical decline.
They are the same thing, as stated in KnK, which you did not read. So not surprised you are talking out of your ass here too:
The mind resides in the brain, and the soul resides in the body.
"Muh, I debate series I haven't read"
See, this is why I know you have 0 knowledge of the source material and you are not approaching this in good faith. I went through the depths to prove Araya's superiority over Arcueid in my previous post, and you ignored it all entirely just to repeat the same debunked crap like a broken record. I would like my efforts to educate you to be reciprocated, thank you.
For starters, Araya is not just a monk, he is the embodiment of an abstract theory, a living monster that has achieved true immortality and gained "overwhelming power" from the anguish he accumulated overtime.
Secondly, he is only stated to be average when it comes to being a magus, which is vague. Even Aoko is said to be terrible as a general magus, in spite of her exceptional power for breaking things. Araya's own power is top class, as his Origin is only directly subordinate to Ryougi's, and he is stated to be above the entirety of the modern era in physical combat, which would include the organization similar to the Nanayas that trained Soujuurou Shizuki.
Thirdly, his natural talent for his bounded fields stems from his Origin. He literally accidentally and subconsciously mastered them simply due to them aligning with his nature and understanding of reality he has gained overtime. He then constructed his realm where he could experiment without interference from the Counterforce, and he literally made a second creation, an infinite dimension he could structure the rules of and gained full mastery over spatial boundaries. After Ryougi killed his body and his consciousness is sent into Akasha, allowing him to gain insight into the Dyad/Stillness in its truest abstract state, he will fully master his Origin powers, which are insanely beyond Archetype's.
Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks.
True, he says even dumber shit. It's embarassing really. There is a reason the Fate/Zero writes made fun of his statements.
I never mentioned Void Shiki being omnipotent. The strongest in the verse? Absolutely. Omnipotent? Nah. And the narrative would fall apart completely if she wasn't anything less or more than Nigh-omnipotent.
With that being said, what does that have anything to do with Nasu making incorrect statements on basic lore and characterization, beyond mere power levels?
You forgot that he is also a compulsive liar, as he openly admitted.
And all I need to know is that there is indeed evidence that he either didn't truly write everything, or that he had some drastic mental decline over the years. But this is not truly relevant to the point. It's more so of a consequence of the objectively stupid claims he makes. The point is that if an author says something that contradicts the series, his word is invalid. If he said Ryougi's hair was green, it's contradicted by the series and not valid. Simple.
He did have them from the start. He just didn't have the right trigger to become conscious of those abilities and actually use them.
Except nothing says that the version Nanaya uses is actually the complete version.
Are you ******* messing with me now? Read the story you wank so much at least:
The psychic are human powers that are actually outside the common boundaries of the human race. This has nothing to do with the Nanaya's physical abilities, which are clearly differentiated from their psychic abilities and are simply described as "trained to the limit". Meanwhile Shiki's body actually goes beyond its own limits to keep up with the superior mind enhanced by Origin awakening
Some. But the vast majority is weakened, Shiki would be among those, given that her feats completely ***** all over Servants. And I think I already made clear that I don't give a shit about her shitty discount GO depiction anyway.
There was no development. There was simply Shiki and Mikiya devolving into immature mockeries of their true selves. Character development needs to be consistent with the characters and the rules established within the narrative.
But what do you know? You haven't read the novel and you have got basic lore wrong that even anime only-watchers would find suspicious. And you think you have the audacity to tell someone who has read the novels 4 times that his interpretation of the story the narrative was explicitly going for is not contradicted in MF and GO because....Well, there is no because. There is just you grasping at straws, which is not going to work on me.
You do realize this is still just brick fighting, right? You just glorified it in hopes that it would look more impressive.
Wow, crazy man.
Blowing up a galaxy, but died to something Master Chief from Halo shrugged off.
Old Types could manipulate the fundamental rules that governed reality. New Types are bricks that dies to someone bricking harder.
This....Does not change my point in any capacity. It's still not supposed to be compatible with the original Tsukihime and Kara. I feel like your brain is on auto-pilot now from the desperation, and you are just saying random shit instead of saving whatever face left and concede.
Nameless isn't the same as the Shirou from SN. Nameless Hero's Origin being the embodiment of other nameless heroes would include the other Emiya.
Yes, cool how none of this is stated:
You ignored my entire argument about Ryougi's Self Hypnosis, her ability to mimick complex techniques like the Nanaya Martial Arts by merely watching them, the mechanics of the Ryougi's powerset, SH bringing out someone's true nature and her connection to the source of all martial arts and nothingness itself. Concession accepted.
Ryougi's sword skills are also far beyond humanity due to representing the essence of the One itself and her becoming one with the source of all martial arts. Servants meanwhile are total fodders who have worse skill showings than Shizuki or Kiri Nanaya.
You just exposed yourself for being a shitposter with this. You don't care about being objective. You don't care about being accurate. You just care about wanking a bunch of dudes who died to the weakest version of someone that literally said Araya embodied his source of power.
Ryougi in a container called Monster. Summoned by a vague wish granting device. CCC literally seal the nail on the coffin for Servants, as it shows that fraction of Ryougi's essence obliterates them passively. Talk about a L.
Cool. Ryougi is the utmost peak of swordmanship possible in the entire franchise. She is one with Nothingness and her sword strikes embodies the essence of Akasha, granting them metaphysical properties rivaling MEoDP.
What in the actual ****? Dude, am I mentally taxing you this hard? This was YOUR explanation all this time. It's like the more you reply, the more you start to break down until you're entirely incoherent. Next I'll see you arguing with yourself outright
Cool fanfics, I'll but them for 4.2 bucks.
Not an argument. I don't even know why you replied here at this point.
Yawn, more coping and denial. Sit down, kid.
Also, how can you tell someone is "shouting" in a text-based discussion? Lmao
Come back when you actually read KnK/Tsukihime, and learn the amazing superpower of putting your bias aside and looking at the matter objectively.
