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please stop strawmanning and flinging accusations because you can’t attack the actual point. imade it clear here.
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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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to end this off:
50/50 chance against a holding back tohno, where he was just trying to get her to leave. (also, arcade unique loss quotes only exist for like 3-5 fights in the game)
Archetype mocks her, and shiki admits that no death exists within her
archetype has a win quote, shiki doesn’t.
Void was out for blood, and wanted arc to die. if she could kill archetype, she would have done it herself. but she couldn’t. and you think the weaker personality would have a chance, when she can lose to a holding back tohno
50/50 chance against a holding back tohno, where he was just trying to get her to leave. (also, arcade unique loss quotes only exist for like 3-5 fights in the game)
Archetype mocks her, and shiki admits that no death exists within her
archetype has a win quote, shiki doesn’t.
Void was out for blood, and wanted arc to die. if she could kill archetype, she would have done it herself. but she couldn’t. and you think the weaker personality would have a chance, when she can lose to a holding back tohno
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I posted the actual raw JP. You can TL it yourself, ask a friend, use MTL, or something else, I don't care. I called 'mistranslation', it's up to you to prove it after I provided both the raw and another translation.
Secondly, no. It is not the same thing. The cutscene itself is left ambiguous, and the JP is read in the same way: the outcome of the fight is a "murder of a god", inwhich both participants can be referred to as such.
You claimed with confidence that the concept of a "natural killer" was 100% an Origin.
Secondly... objectively wrong? If Ryougi dies, one would assume that Void dies with her. She's the "personality of the body", lol. Your own argument supports me. "the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will". So you're telling me that Void Shiki is bound to Ryougi's will... and Ryougi very explicitly wanted AE dead. Because of Void urging her. Thank you.
Once again, Ryougi's talk amounted to someone going "hmph, I'll show you you're wrong!". She outright admitted AE had no death on her, and the last time that happened (Araya, first encounter), she got massacred. Nor does it make sense for AE to lose in the first place - Ryougi is outright stated to be at a disadvantage against ranged opponents like Fujino's ranged attacks, and needed trial-and-error in order to view them, inwhich she was only able to do so due to an environmental advantage. She has no such luxury here.
Yes, there are multiple narrative statements for MEODP being able to kill anything... except for those who have "no concept of death", like AE herself. AE's statement about "bestowing death to what cannot die" is her pointing out what a foolish errand she's on.
Thirdly, I do not believe AE saying "How pleasant. Now - - - Cry and scamper as you can, you trash. Try and stop my grin with your death." is her 'acknowledging her capabilities'. At all. In the slightest. Lol.
Not entirely. Ryougi specifies that the dream is over "however the outcome" of the fight. That's a direct quote. One side constantly berating the other, and the other going "Hmph, I'll show you!" is not two people of equal standing.
If Ryougi dies, so does Void. That's how bodies work. She's the "personality of the body". Regardless of who wins or loses, a god dies. The Translation I provided renders your entire argument moot. "Killing anything, even if it is a god" when the author then later on goes to speak in KnK material about how that's NOT how MEODP works, and that she would be unable to kill a 'broken phone'. That's not a 'powerscaling word of god', That's 'nasu explaining how the ability works'. Genuinely a joke how you're attempting to tell me that someone openly weaker than a branch family member can kill a TYPE.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him. Ryougi is not even the most skilled Ryougi Clan Member in the modern age, she's not competing with the greatest Nanaya of all time when he's serious.
Yes, he uses greater power at times within the visual novel, but there are many times where he does NOT. Take the Yumizuka battle or in the hotel with the dogs. Or Ciel's route. "His instincts pop mid-fight sometimes" is not an argument.
You are correct, he said he would leave his usual style away that night. Which is to "destroy" someone who attempts to cause him harm. He specifically stated that he will not do so. He activated MEODP to "get her to leave".
Right! There's varying degrees to his abilities, and there are several routes where he DOESN'T tape into his instincts, and Nasu has to rely on a separate powerup for him instead, like being a Dead Apostle.
Dreamscape and TATARI Nanaya are not the real one, yes. But they are also not the one that appears in Tsukihime. Secondly, no. Nanaya does not act passive or meek in the original visual novel. He does in the remake, but if you want to use that, then we should bring up how Nanaya is VERY explicitly different from the other two mentioned. Pick your poison.
"Hard to kill" is hard-countered by "instant kill".
His kit is that he's a hivemind, and because of that, you need to kill all of his beasts at once. He's hard to kill. That is what is stated, that is what his main "strength" is. Him being capable of creating continental-level contructs is irrelevant when you're able to kill anything in one hit. His "exceptionally hard to kill and overwhelming numbers", as you say, amounted to:
- TWO beasts (implied to be a dragon and a unicorn)
- THREE crab-like creatures
- that's it lol
His only "overwhelming numbers" were the fodder-creatures that an Arcueid that could barely walk could easily wipe them all out with a swipe of her hand. There was a reason that he saw her and went "thank god you're injured."
Offensive measures that don't stack up to his defense, yes. Nero is strong, that is highlighted in the remake continuity, but in the original continuity he's consistently written to be a stepping stone.
Arcueid said that it would be "difficult" to defeat him with her full power, not "impossible". As we see in the Manga, she can bring out AE at any time. She would not allow herself to be caught in that, especially with her massive stat advantage.
Arcueid's ability scales with the "person". Nero is not a person. He's a hivemind. She would scale to his individual beasts. You don't even need to use WoG for this, this is basic common sense.
The "all evidence points to" card is referring to Tohno... wanting to kill things, inwhich the actual narrative implies it is a seperate entirely different thing. Ofwhich I provided. Your basing things on headcanon.
Your basis is "Tohno has a different set of circumstances explicitly, with the only similarities being 'they died'.".
Except he doesn't, because he breaks his brain with every usage and risks becoming a vegetable. He isn't meant to have those abilities. It was an accident that was not meant to happen. This is explicit.
| Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Unusual talent], p.184 |
| Originally, Shiki's eyes were meant to "see that which cannot be seen". However, after having two near death experiences he was somehow connected to (the Root), and his brain began to be able to comprehend death itself. Or to put it in other words, it is only by virtue of his mystic eyes and brain working together as a set that he is able to perceive death. By the way, Shiki's eyes turn blue when he intentionally tries to see death. Seeing as how blue is the color of pure eyes, it's likely that Shiki's eyes were originally of that type. |
Using Arcueid's quote as a "gotcha" when she has absolutely no idea about his past or abilities is not viable.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
He's also able to consistently dodge and evade Kouma's attacks. That same Kouma being able to overwhelm Tohno Shiki when he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves. Pick your poison, it's clear what his "intended level" is supposed to be. You have one statement in RDG that says they cannot dodge bullets (AFTER they had weakened btw), and earlier in that same story, the DHO preferred to use the Nanaya Clan (before they had weakened) as their "absolute war power" over the actual GODS in the organization.
I'll let you have this, I didn't pick up on this. However -
Very explicitly a flawed version lol.
I don't know about you, but someone who has murderous urges to the point that it's considered an "extreme personality shift" by Merem is considered a psychopath. Your argument is "they stem from Nanaya, who is his 'guiding principle", yet they very explicitly stem from TOHNO SHIKI.
Yes. Void is the "personality of the body". Ryougi is one of the "personalities of the mind". That unique prospect is why Ryougi is capable of fighting against those urges at all. The things she DOES get are literally "leaks".
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
"Dictated by their origins", and you're referring to headcanon.
The core concept of each character is the same. Regardless, the concept of the "foundation" is not a remake-only thing. Not to mention it's not made to fit with GO, but you're too stubborn to see that.
Your evidence is "they died" and "have urges for killing". I can't believe that Shirou's Origin is "saving people" now. Crazy, right? He has an urge for saving people.
You are completely misunderstanding and refusing to read what I am saying. Kiri lost. He was weaker than Kouma at the time. What the text absolutely implies is that if Kiri had NOT been weakened, Kouma's head would've exploded at bare minimum, his final strike. That's the narrative of the story.
While yes, Kouma was "born broken" and "possessed it from the beginning", but the text then IMMEDIATELY says "However, there is a HORIZON that one can reach" to match.
Secondly, no. RDG Kouma is physically much more powerful than Modern Kouma, with the latter only having hellfire as a "turning point."
I am talking about the narrative implication of the work. Ryougi was not brought into any of this.
Secondly, Jihan's entire speech outright implies/says that Kiri was weakened. Both Kiri and Jihan agreed on this. Lol.
Yes, I believe that traits the body possesses is entirely different from the soul. Those are two different concepts. One that you disagree with because... "muh urges".
Your "truth" says that a monk explicitly said to be mediocre in anything other than bounded fields is more powerful than the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Nasu does not say anything near as drastic as "Ryougi's hair is green". He states how something works, or how he views things at a certain time. The author can change his mind, yes, but going "HE'S INCREDIBLY STUPID!!!" when Void Shiki hasn't been intended to be or written in an omnipotent way ever since KnK - and from what I hear from native JP speakers, even the "omnipotent" part of THAT is dubious. Though I can't read JP myself, so I'll leave that aside for now.
Nasu is the author for KnK, Tsukihime, Fate Stay/Night, and Mahoyo. He is ONE of the writers for FGO. He is the founder of the company, with him and Takeuchi working on Tsukihime on their lonesome. The fact that you're saying that Nasu did not write Tsukihime or KnK is all I need to know.
Once again. "Talented", not "innate". If he was "born with" these things, he would have it from the start. Kiri had to dabble in things himself and discovered the rest of the Nanaya Arts by accident. Does that make him "born with death"? No, it doesn't. They're completely different concepts.
"Tried" does not say anything about the outcome in this context. All we know is that he "tried" to copy them, and the next time we see any form of Nanaya in action, he has the entire thing mastered. Do the math from there.
The... psychic ability explicitly said to be the "power of a human"? Is 'beyond the boundary of a human'?
Ryougi being summoned as a Servant is irrelevant. Plenty of Servants get more powerful with their own summoning, like Dantes as an example. Next.
The amount of cope you're having towards someone having character development is actually kind of funny.
Which means "that guy is strong". Camazotz was the strongest member of the strongest race on earth and he was, quite literally, empowered by the death of every other living being on the planet, minus the deinos, as to gain not power, but ENDURANCE to keep up with ORT. He was not stronger than ORT by any means, but every time he got ripped to shreds or mostly crystallized he could regenerate back, hence why their fight lasted millions of years.
He didn't win because he "just ripped out ORT's heart", he actively spent millions of years of trial and error to find one spot ORT was just slightly weaker and he could pierce it... Then more millions of years actually getting the timing to pull it off. Then, EVEN AFTER ALL OF THAT, ORT wasn't dead. it could have regenerated a new heart at any moment, Hence why Camatotz turned it into Mictlan's sun, that way ORT could feel it was around and didn't bother with making a new one.
Then, after ALL OF THAT, and after it COMMITED SUICIDE (because it took ANOTHER ORT to BEAT ORT), it just resummoned itself.
Unless you're telling me that "fodder" means "cannot blow up a universe with only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of their strength". The Type in question is outright said to be the most powerful thing in TM, capable of blowing up a galaxy while immensely nerfed beyond belief.
Not to mention AE is explicitly nerfed in FGO and can do everything that she could in MBAA. "Types are weaker", yeah, sure. Headcanon again.
Which would be great if the thing you were whining about was true to begin with. Using Remake as an example... FGO was written based on Remake lore, not the other way around lol.
Are you saying that Shirou's Origin is "Hero"? Do you know how he has UBW in the first place?
Inwhich that Nanaya is explicitly said to be a bad killer and nerfed. Cool, right?
Your evidence for this is that... she has something that the Samurai had. When Servants are explicitly said to be above humanity, stated more times than I can count. Or, take Ryougi losing to Servants in the Mooncell, which... lol? She isn't even native to that world. I guess we can say that every single Servant is above the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Or take Apocrypha, stating that the skill of heroes transcends humanity. The BARE MINIMUM, they're above humanity.
Your explanation was "Kiri had to be weakened in order to lose to Kouma."
No, I do not think Lio would beat a Nanaya, considering just them walking confuses the opponent so much that they get confused and believe an earthquake is happening/the ground itself is moving them.
It's almost like Nanaya is explicitly not an origin personality lol
You're saying that the MMC is equal to Origins, so yes. I believe you haven't. I still don't. When I said it, I said it respectfully, instead of shouting at you over and over again.
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cook. but I’ll also add, the KNK event shiki is the living shiki, she got incinerated by Goetia, she just came to the event setting somehow to momentarily avoid this before her body burns up.I posted the actual raw JP. You can TL it yourself, ask a friend, use MTL, or something else, I don't care. I called 'mistranslation', it's up to you to prove it after I provided both the raw and another translation.
Secondly, no. It is not the same thing. The cutscene itself is left ambiguous, and the JP is read in the same way: the outcome of the fight is a "murder of a god", inwhich both participants can be referred to as such.
You claimed with confidence that the concept of a "natural killer" was 100% an Origin.
Secondly... objectively wrong? If Ryougi dies, one would assume that Void dies with her. She's the "personality of the body", lol. Your own argument supports me. "the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will". So you're telling me that Void Shiki is bound to Ryougi's will... and Ryougi very explicitly wanted AE dead. Because of Void urging her. Thank you.
Once again, Ryougi's talk amounted to someone going "hmph, I'll show you you're wrong!". She outright admitted AE had no death on her, and the last time that happened (Araya, first encounter), she got massacred. Nor does it make sense for AE to lose in the first place - Ryougi is outright stated to be at a disadvantage against ranged opponents like Fujino's ranged attacks, and needed trial-and-error in order to view them, inwhich she was only able to do so due to an environmental advantage. She has no such luxury here.
Yes, there are multiple narrative statements for MEODP being able to kill anything... except for those who have "no concept of death", like AE herself. AE's statement about "bestowing death to what cannot die" is her pointing out what a foolish errand she's on.
Thirdly, I do not believe AE saying "How pleasant. Now - - - Cry and scamper as you can, you trash. Try and stop my grin with your death." is her 'acknowledging her capabilities'. At all. In the slightest. Lol.
Not entirely. Ryougi specifies that the dream is over "however the outcome" of the fight. That's a direct quote. One side constantly berating the other, and the other going "Hmph, I'll show you!" is not two people of equal standing.
If Ryougi dies, so does Void. That's how bodies work. She's the "personality of the body". Regardless of who wins or loses, a god dies. The Translation I provided renders your entire argument moot. "Killing anything, even if it is a god" when the author then later on goes to speak in KnK material about how that's NOT how MEODP works, and that she would be unable to kill a 'broken phone'. That's not a 'powerscaling word of god', That's 'nasu explaining how the ability works'. Genuinely a joke how you're attempting to tell me that someone openly weaker than a branch family member can kill a TYPE.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him. Ryougi is not even the most skilled Ryougi Clan Member in the modern age, she's not competing with the greatest Nanaya of all time when he's serious.
Yes, he uses greater power at times within the visual novel, but there are many times where he does NOT. Take the Yumizuka battle or in the hotel with the dogs. Or Ciel's route. "His instincts pop mid-fight sometimes" is not an argument.
You are correct, he said he would leave his usual style away that night. Which is to "destroy" someone who attempts to cause him harm. He specifically stated that he will not do so. He activated MEODP to "get her to leave".
Right! There's varying degrees to his abilities, and there are several routes where he DOESN'T tape into his instincts, and Nasu has to rely on a separate powerup for him instead, like being a Dead Apostle.
Dreamscape and TATARI Nanaya are not the real one, yes. But they are also not the one that appears in Tsukihime. Secondly, no. Nanaya does not act passive or meek in the original visual novel. He does in the remake, but if you want to use that, then we should bring up how Nanaya is VERY explicitly different from the other two mentioned. Pick your poison.
"Hard to kill" is hard-countered by "instant kill".
His kit is that he's a hivemind, and because of that, you need to kill all of his beasts at once. He's hard to kill. That is what is stated, that is what his main "strength" is. Him being capable of creating continental-level contructs is irrelevant when you're able to kill anything in one hit. His "exceptionally hard to kill and overwhelming numbers", as you say, amounted to:
Please note that each bullet point was a "stage". He did not send those all at once. He sent two beasts, then three once those two were destroyed.
- TWO beasts (implied to be a dragon and a unicorn)
- THREE crab-like creatures
- that's it lol
His only "overwhelming numbers" were the fodder-creatures that an Arcueid that could barely walk could easily wipe them all out with a swipe of her hand. There was a reason that he saw her and went "thank god you're injured."
Offensive measures that don't stack up to his defense, yes. Nero is strong, that is highlighted in the remake continuity, but in the original continuity he's consistently written to be a stepping stone.
Arcueid said that it would be "difficult" to defeat him with her full power, not "impossible". As we see in the Manga, she can bring out AE at any time. She would not allow herself to be caught in that, especially with her massive stat advantage.
Arcueid's ability scales with the "person". Nero is not a person. He's a hivemind. She would scale to his individual beasts. You don't even need to use WoG for this, this is basic common sense.
The "all evidence points to" card is referring to Tohno... wanting to kill things, inwhich the actual narrative implies it is a seperate entirely different thing. Ofwhich I provided. Your basing things on headcanon.
Your basis is "Tohno has a different set of circumstances explicitly, with the only similarities being 'they died'.".
Except he doesn't, because he breaks his brain with every usage and risks becoming a vegetable. He isn't meant to have those abilities. It was an accident that was not meant to happen. This is explicit.
Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Unusual talent], p.184 Originally, Shiki's eyes were meant to "see that which cannot be seen". However, after having two near death experiences he was somehow connected to (the Root), and his brain began to be able to comprehend death itself. Or to put it in other words, it is only by virtue of his mystic eyes and brain working together as a set that he is able to perceive death.
By the way, Shiki's eyes turn blue when he intentionally tries to see death. Seeing as how blue is the color of pure eyes, it's likely that Shiki's eyes were originally of that type.
Using Arcueid's quote as a "gotcha" when she has absolutely no idea about his past or abilities is not viable.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
He's also able to consistently dodge and evade Kouma's attacks. That same Kouma being able to overwhelm Tohno Shiki when he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves. Pick your poison, it's clear what his "intended level" is supposed to be. You have one statement in RDG that says they cannot dodge bullets (AFTER they had weakened btw), and earlier in that same story, the DHO preferred to use the Nanaya Clan (before they had weakened) as their "absolute war power" over the actual GODS in the organization.
I'll let you have this, I didn't pick up on this. However -
Very explicitly a flawed version lol.
I don't know about you, but someone who has murderous urges to the point that it's considered an "extreme personality shift" by Merem is considered a psychopath. Your argument is "they stem from Nanaya, who is his 'guiding principle", yet they very explicitly stem from TOHNO SHIKI.
Yes. Void is the "personality of the body". Ryougi is one of the "personalities of the mind". That unique prospect is why Ryougi is capable of fighting against those urges at all. The things she DOES get are literally "leaks".
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
"Dictated by their origins", and you're referring to headcanon.
The core concept of each character is the same. Regardless, the concept of the "foundation" is not a remake-only thing. Not to mention it's not made to fit with GO, but you're too stubborn to see that.
Your evidence is "they died" and "have urges for killing". I can't believe that Shirou's Origin is "saving people" now. Crazy, right? He has an urge for saving people.
You are completely misunderstanding and refusing to read what I am saying. Kiri lost. He was weaker than Kouma at the time. What the text absolutely implies is that if Kiri had NOT been weakened, Kouma's head would've exploded at bare minimum, his final strike. That's the narrative of the story.
While yes, Kouma was "born broken" and "possessed it from the beginning", but the text then IMMEDIATELY says "However, there is a HORIZON that one can reach" to match.
Secondly, no. RDG Kouma is physically much more powerful than Modern Kouma, with the latter only having hellfire as a "turning point."
I am talking about the narrative implication of the work. Ryougi was not brought into any of this.
Secondly, Jihan's entire speech outright implies/says that Kiri was weakened. Both Kiri and Jihan agreed on this. Lol.
Yes, I believe that traits the body possesses is entirely different from the soul. Those are two different concepts. One that you disagree with because... "muh urges".
Your "truth" says that a monk explicitly said to be mediocre in anything other than bounded fields is more powerful than the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Nasu does not say anything near as drastic as "Ryougi's hair is green". He states how something works, or how he views things at a certain time. The author can change his mind, yes, but going "HE'S INCREDIBLY STUPID!!!" when Void Shiki hasn't been intended to be or written in an omnipotent way ever since KnK - and from what I hear from native JP speakers, even the "omnipotent" part of THAT is dubious. Though I can't read JP myself, so I'll leave that aside for now.
Nasu is the author for KnK, Tsukihime, Fate Stay/Night, and Mahoyo. He is ONE of the writers for FGO. He is the founder of the company, with him and Takeuchi working on Tsukihime on their lonesome. The fact that you're saying that Nasu did not write Tsukihime or KnK is all I need to know.
Once again. "Talented", not "innate". If he was "born with" these things, he would have it from the start. Kiri had to dabble in things himself and discovered the rest of the Nanaya Arts by accident. Does that make him "born with death"? No, it doesn't. They're completely different concepts.
"Tried" does not say anything about the outcome in this context. All we know is that he "tried" to copy them, and the next time we see any form of Nanaya in action, he has the entire thing mastered. Do the math from there.
The... psychic ability explicitly said to be the "power of a human"? Is 'beyond the boundary of a human'?
Ryougi being summoned as a Servant is irrelevant. Plenty of Servants get more powerful with their own summoning, like Dantes as an example. Next.
The amount of cope you're having towards someone having character development is actually kind of funny.
Which means "that guy is strong". Camazotz was the strongest member of the strongest race on earth and he was, quite literally, empowered by the death of every other living being on the planet, minus the deinos, as to gain not power, but ENDURANCE to keep up with ORT. He was not stronger than ORT by any means, but every time he got ripped to shreds or mostly crystallized he could regenerate back, hence why their fight lasted millions of years.
He didn't win because he "just ripped out ORT's heart", he actively spent millions of years of trial and error to find one spot ORT was just slightly weaker and he could pierce it... Then more millions of years actually getting the timing to pull it off. Then, EVEN AFTER ALL OF THAT, ORT wasn't dead. it could have regenerated a new heart at any moment, Hence why Camatotz turned it into Mictlan's sun, that way ORT could feel it was around and didn't bother with making a new one.
Then, after ALL OF THAT, and after it COMMITED SUICIDE (because it took ANOTHER ORT to BEAT ORT), it just resummoned itself.
Unless you're telling me that "fodder" means "cannot blow up a universe with only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of their strength". The Type in question is outright said to be the most powerful thing in TM, capable of blowing up a galaxy while immensely nerfed beyond belief.
Not to mention AE is explicitly nerfed in FGO and can do everything that she could in MBAA. "Types are weaker", yeah, sure. Headcanon again.
Which would be great if the thing you were whining about was true to begin with. Using Remake as an example... FGO was written based on Remake lore, not the other way around lol.
Are you saying that Shirou's Origin is "Hero"? Do you know how he has UBW in the first place?
Inwhich that Nanaya is explicitly said to be a bad killer and nerfed. Cool, right?
Your evidence for this is that... she has something that the Samurai had. When Servants are explicitly said to be above humanity, stated more times than I can count. Or, take Ryougi losing to Servants in the Mooncell, which... lol? She isn't even native to that world. I guess we can say that every single Servant is above the Ultimate One of the Planet.
Or take Apocrypha, stating that the skill of heroes transcends humanity. The BARE MINIMUM, they're above humanity.
Your explanation was "Kiri had to be weakened in order to lose to Kouma."
No, I do not think Lio would beat a Nanaya, considering just them walking confuses the opponent so much that they get confused and believe an earthquake is happening/the ground itself is moving them.
It's almost like Nanaya is explicitly not an origin personality lol
You're saying that the MMC is equal to Origins, so yes. I believe you haven't. I still don't. When I said it, I said it respectfully, instead of shouting at you over and over again.
her being a servant in the first place implies that she died there, so he has to pick his poison
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Ah there we have it, the inevitable incoherent breakdown of my opponent, just yet another Fate/Nanaya fanboy who tries to go against the most knowledgeable KnK debater on the site despite having not even read the novel. Pity.
It literally say the same exact thing as the official translation, just worded slightly different. The amount of mental gymnastic you are going through to deny a very simple statement is impressive and defies even my wildest expectations. If there is one thing you are actually good in, it's definitely coping.
I already explained all of this. After slaughtering Tohno, Ryougi confronts Archetype, who reveals that she was Void's target. Ryougi notices that AE has no Death in her, but is completely unfazed by this and is casually still intent on killing her. AE talks to Void and then acknowledges Ryougi, stating that she has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which she finds insulting. But since Tohno is dead, she is pissed, and thus decides to take it seriously and try to kill her, taunting her to stop her smile with the Death she brings. Ryougi so replies back and assures her that nothing can escape her MEoDP. As long as something is alive, she can kill even gods. The guidebook references this last catchphrase right as the fight begins and the game blacks out. It's confirming that Ryougi won, proving her assertion that she can kill anything as long as it lives, which has mountains of narrative backing that I can't help but notice you have completely ignored. Could it be that those statements held uncomfortable truths for you to deal with?
Yes. I don't envy the symptoms of vertigo you must be experiencing right now for finding something within that sentence that could be interpreted as " I had this vision of a user who will barge in the thread and I must say in advance that he has not read the series".
Are you saying that Ryougi dying to Archetype would count as her killing a god because if she gets killed, Void dies with her? That makes no sense if that's what you're saying. That's like saying if I have multiple personalities and die to something, I'm a murderer because I died... and the other personality as a result? lol
Besides, I have never said "Objectively wrong" to anything related to this particular topic of AE vs Ryougi, so I have frankly no idea what you are even replying to here.
She is bound to Shiki's will, yes. But Void can still send urges to her, including her murder instincts. Ryougi can resist them if she cares enough. But this time, she subconsciously agreed with the urges of killing AE. This is why she told Tohno that this night was special, as "she" was the one urging her on.
She said she has no death, then both acknowledge Ryougi can kill her regardless by instilling death.
Yes, because Araya is significantly stronger and faster than Archetype.
Unfortunately for Archetype, Ryougi at this point doesn't need trial and error for things, as her eyes are perfected now and can kill all things "without exception" according to Void:
In fact, even prior to the Epilogue, she already tapped into the non-local variation of MEoDP of Balor, as she destroyed the abstract boundaries sustaining Araya's infinite dimension:
She destroyed the abstract boundaries that are not physically located in space, but just exists as universal truths/laws that govern how Araya's dimension works. That's why the novel says "non-existent" limit, as in, it doesn't physically exist in space due to being abstract. Touko then further confirms that Ryougi can kill formless and abstract concepts:
You know what that means, right? If Shiki's MEoDP destroyed abstract concepts that have no form and don't physically exist in space, it means that the only way she could do that is by thinking them out of existence. As you can only think about the abstract and cannot physically locate it in space. Hence she started tapping into the perfected MEoDP used by Balor, to which she would then become more used to overtime, until comprehension isn't an issue anymore by the time of the Epilogue, as Void stated she can kill all things with no exceptions.
So she would just kill any ranged attack from Archetype, and think away her reality warping just like she thinked away Araya's infinite dimension.
You clearly haven't read any of the statements I sent if this is all you could understand. Allow me to repost them:
I don't really care if you fail to comprehend them even this second time. So I expect some actual counterargument now. Curious at how you'll prove that Archetype is omnipotent and doesn't rely on anything for her existence.
You're ignoring her acknowledging she can instill death.
She's shit talking. She may be confident she can win, but nothing implies she thinks it'll be a stomp. Are you saying two relative combatants never shit talk each other?
You are making distinctions without differences and arbitrarily affirming that AE's shit talk is more valid than Ryougi's shit talk. Besides, Ryougi saying this ends regardless of the outcome actually supports the notion they are comparable if anything, as the outcome is supposedly uncertain for her.
The franchise I read renders the vast majority of your takes moot.
Dear god, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. First off, all that Nasu said is that Shiki kills anything she perceives as "alive". Meaning that a broken phone cannot be killed because it is already dead to her, as its meaning ceased to be and is thus useless. Iirc there is even another statement where he says that Ryougi perceives anything interacting with reality as something she can kill, regardless of if they are alive or undead. But that's irrelevant, as I'm not interested in external comments from someone notoriously unreliable.
Second, not how MEoDP works? Say it to this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
So here is is how MEoDP works according to the story itself, not an idiot who is laughed off by the Fate/Zero's team and literally got asked in Q&As the reason he makes nonsensical statements: They observe the floor-plan of reality, allowing Ryougi to see and destroy the flaws holding an object together that traces back to Akasha. No matter how complex and diversified something is, it has a thread that permits its existence and connects it to Akasha. As long as something has limits in any capacity, Ryougi can find this limit and "cut" it. This extends to abstract and formless concepts as well. The only thing that Ryougi cannot kill are actually limitless and perfect existences like Akasha itself.
Now, the question is, is Archetype a perfect existence that relies on nothing but itself to exist? And the answer is no, as she is sourced from the Spiral of Origin. The Sarira in Araya's left arm were outright removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth, making them superior to simply not having a concept of Death in Gaia's reality. Yet, Ryougi could have killed even those, as they have cause for their existence at the end of the day (The enlightenment of a saint) and are physical objects with a history. Same thing for Araya's physical body, despite his essence being completely immortal in its truest sense.
Archetype has a physical body that physically moves and interacts with reality, with a cause for her overall existence. Meaning that Ryougi can kill her. The end.
No, that's Nasu spouting bullshit and fanboys like you wanking it as words of truth until it fits your agenda, instead of outright admitting from the start he is unreliable. Besides, Nasu did not even say what you meant. That's your poor misinterpretation of his words.
The only joke is you ignoring how Asagami is an absurd Origin awakened outlier among her family members who needs an entire week to bend a normal human's arm, that Ryougi was not at full power against Asagami and that this non-full power Ryougi was still significantly above Asagami.
His usual style is him being benign, hence he tried to introduce himself to Ryougi or whatever. Once he saw that she wasn't having it and was only interested in killing him, he took off his glasses and stated he will leave his usual style (Being benign) aside, as Ryougi openly wanted to harm him, hence he decided to "destroy her". Too bad he failed, as he was up against someone way out of his league.
Ryougi is the physical manifestation of the One, who has the potential of using all possible powers to a perfect extent should she gain knowledge of them (Like with MEoDP or Self Hypnosis), she is definitely surpassing the embodiment of just one of the countless concepts derived from her essence.
The Yumizuka fight? You mean the fight where Tohno would randomly blitz her until he reigned in his instincts again? Sure. The dogs were beings that he could and did defeat on his own.
He was hindered by the mental conflict with Roa in the Ciel Route. And prior to that? He matched Roa while noting that his body was moving on its own, while feeling the same instinct he was experiencing while he killed Arcueid at the beginning.
LMAO. So he used a lethal ability to make someone leave non-lethally? Do you even hear yourself? Or are you saying that Ryougi would get scared by the oh great Tohno and ran away at the sight of his MEoDP? A MEoDP that is significantly inferior and more underdeveloped compared to hers at that.
He taps into his instincts in literally every single route.
No, but he acts still very differently from the actual Nanaya. He does act meek and passive in KT. In fact, I remember you so eagerly posting the scan of him being incredibly gentle, which is clearly different from the Original personality Nanaya.
Ignoring my argument regarding Nrvnqsr and his feats of offensively beating the shit out of Arcueid tier character. Concession accepted.
Oh, and of course his top tier beasts are lesser in number compared to the weaker ones, since they are far more powerful and requires a greater amount of lives to manifest. Furthermore, you're saying he only has a few top beasts and the rest are fodder but this is baseless.
He has fodder ones.
He has better ones that he used against Arcueid.
And then he has ones beyond that.
However, you're assuming the only ones he has that are beyond Arcueid is the few top-tier beats of his, when there could be several tiers higher than the ones Arcueid fought before you reach those best of the best ones. The reason he only sent out so few against her too is because he underestimated how much strength she has left. This is backed up by the fact Nrvnqsr though Arcueid was too weak to do anything, so he wouldn't have sent out big guns in any capacity. They were just superior to his absolute weakest ones like the dogs.
An Arcueid that could barely walk and use an ability that empowers her as physically above her opponent. Here are these "fodder creatures" severely injuring Powered Ciel, who barely manages to win:
Never said it would be impossible. I simply said Arcueid thinks defeating him wouldn't be easy due to how strong he is. You do know that Nrvnqsr defeated Red Arcueid in AC, who defeated Arcueid so easily she said "What? Dead already?", right?
I was comparing Nrvnqsr to normal Arcueid. Why bring up Archetype? lol. So you admit that Arcueid cannot beat him without resorting to summoning AE?
They are multiple lives. But they are all "Nrvnqsr Chaos". They are many, but one. As evident by his final form being one singular beast.
I...What? This isn't coherent in the slightest and is not even what I said.
I'll make it very clear for you, since you seem to struggle having basic information relayed to you:
-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point.
It's an accident because people aren't meant to awaken their Origins. Him "breaking" his brain is the result of trying to comprehend the death of things he is not supposed to comprehend as a living being. However, he gets more used to perceiving more esoteric forms of death as he uses the eyes overtime. As stated by Arcueid:
This is why in Tsukihime he nearly pass out from killing a hallway, but later on by the time of Melty Blood he can kill the metaphysical information of a Tatari and "concepts beyond human comprehension" according to Sion. What matters though is him having the ability to perceive Death's unique channel with his Pure Eyes at all. Of course there are degrees of mastery attached to it following that. You are ironically downplaying Tohno by an extreme amount with your arguments now.
Alright.....So.....You are saying that the Nanayas cannot compete with demons physically, but they are able to overcome them thanks to their skill and assassination tactics. All fine. Then you randomly say that if Kiri was in his prime, he would have smoked Kouma, something that Kiri himself explicitly said he has no hope to do. What's even the connection here? lol
Imagine using dream worlds as evidence. Kishima literally got weaker after Shiki survived his initial three strikes and diminished as his "image of Death" the more he survived against him. His power was entirely contigent on Shiki's mental perception.
Gods? What gods? If those so called gods are below people that find armed men a force to be reckoned with, then they are not that impressive, yeah?
You do realize that the Origin personality being the personality of the body, and the mind personality being capable of potentially resisting its urges if they have enough mental strength is universal to all Origin awakenings, right? The only thing Ryougi is unique in is that her Origin personality was awakened before the mind personality, when it's usually the opposite. But it has no bearing on her holding back her impulses.
He's a fictional personality in the sense he is part of the dream world that was conjured by his fears.
This is why in the real world, Tatari Nanaya, who, despite not being the real Nanaya, became a real entity in the real world, did not say he's a fictional personality, but Tohno's "guiding principle".
My bad on the second scan. It's not kid Nanaya, it's Nanaya openly saying that he's Tohno's foundation, meaning his origin, but he is not his past, aka he is not the boy from before the accident. He is the origin personality manifesting as his past child self in his mind for this last scene. This is actually MORE evidence that Nanaya is an Origin personality, so thank you for helping my case.
No, this is explictly what Origins are. They are the conceptual foundation of an individual, determining a lot of their traits, what kind of life the are going to be compatible with, their powers, etc.
No it's not the same. And the only one acting stubborn is you. Stop bringing up the remake in a discussion about the original series.
"-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point. "
Bruh, the text clearly states that Kiri’s final strike was a once-in-a-lifetime maneuver, only made possible because he created Kishima’s blind spot by gouging his eye out as a child. Kiri sensed his own inability to keep up with Kishima in a direct fight, which is why he executed this specific strike. And the strike would have penetrated his head, not "exploded his head". On top of that, his final strike instilled a sense of living into Kouma finally, making him even more powerful. Funny how that goes. After dying, the text simply said that the reason he died was because he couldn't bring himself to kill Kouma back when he was a child, nothing else.
That's just Kiri trying to find a silver lining in his situation. Even though he doesn't possess Death innately, he views it as a distant goal he might one day reach. This perspective reflects his lifelong pursuit of killing without ever truly mastering it. It's largely a form of self-delusion as he faces death. This is framed within the context of his once-in-a-lifetime final strike, which he hoped might allow him to overcome an otherwise invincible opponent.
Ah, so Kouma, after mastering martial arts, hellfire manipulation, and CRV, and finally feeling alive while seeking enlightenment, is somehow weaker than his untrained, emotionless self who lacked control over his supernatural Origin powers. Understood.
Is Jihan the doctor Kiri visited? The text indicates that after Shiki's birth, Kiri developed human emotions, shifting from a desire to "kill people" to a wish to "make people live." This change led him to retire from demon hunting, resulting in his family falling from the top and becoming a liability that needed to be eliminated. The discussion focuses more on Kiri's change in personality rather than his power.
The only power-related detail that stands out is the general claim that the Nanayas transition between generations before physical decline begins, ensuring that the next generation is already mature when the decline starts.
Since Shiki is still growing up, Kiri would be several years away from the onset of his physical decline.
They are the same thing, as stated in KnK, which you did not read. So not surprised you are talking out of your ass here too:
The mind resides in the brain, and the soul resides in the body.
"Muh, I debate series I haven't read"
See, this is why I know you have 0 knowledge of the source material and you are not approaching this in good faith. I went through the depths to prove Araya's superiority over Arcueid in my previous post, and you ignored it all entirely just to repeat the same debunked crap like a broken record. I would like my efforts to educate you to be reciprocated, thank you.
For starters, Araya is not just a monk, he is the embodiment of an abstract theory, a living monster that has achieved true immortality and gained "overwhelming power" from the anguish he accumulated overtime.
Secondly, he is only stated to be average when it comes to being a magus, which is vague. Even Aoko is said to be terrible as a general magus, in spite of her exceptional power for breaking things. Araya's own power is top class, as his Origin is only directly subordinate to Ryougi's, and he is stated to be above the entirety of the modern era in physical combat, which would include the organization similar to the Nanayas that trained Soujuurou Shizuki.
Thirdly, his natural talent for his bounded fields stems from his Origin. He literally accidentally and subconsciously mastered them simply due to them aligning with his nature and understanding of reality he has gained overtime. He then constructed his realm where he could experiment without interference from the Counterforce, and he literally made a second creation, an infinite dimension he could structure the rules of and gained full mastery over spatial boundaries. After Ryougi killed his body and his consciousness is sent into Akasha, allowing him to gain insight into the Dyad/Stillness in its truest abstract state, he will fully master his Origin powers, which are insanely beyond Archetype's.
Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks.
True, he says even dumber shit. It's embarassing really. There is a reason the Fate/Zero writes made fun of his statements.
I never mentioned Void Shiki being omnipotent. The strongest in the verse? Absolutely. Omnipotent? Nah. And the narrative would fall apart completely if she wasn't anything less or more than Nigh-omnipotent.
With that being said, what does that have anything to do with Nasu making incorrect statements on basic lore and characterization, beyond mere power levels?
You forgot that he is also a compulsive liar, as he openly admitted.
And all I need to know is that there is indeed evidence that he either didn't truly write everything, or that he had some drastic mental decline over the years. But this is not truly relevant to the point. It's more so of a consequence of the objectively stupid claims he makes. The point is that if an author says something that contradicts the series, his word is invalid. If he said Ryougi's hair was green, it's contradicted by the series and not valid. Simple.
He did have them from the start. He just didn't have the right trigger to become conscious of those abilities and actually use them.
Except nothing says that the version Nanaya uses is actually the complete version.
Are you ******* messing with me now? Read the story you wank so much at least:
The psychic are human powers that are actually outside the common boundaries of the human race. This has nothing to do with the Nanaya's physical abilities, which are clearly differentiated from their psychic abilities and are simply described as "trained to the limit". Meanwhile Shiki's body actually goes beyond its own limits to keep up with the superior mind enhanced by Origin awakening
Some. But the vast majority is weakened, Shiki would be among those, given that her feats completely ***** all over Servants. And I think I already made clear that I don't give a shit about her shitty discount GO depiction anyway.
There was no development. There was simply Shiki and Mikiya devolving into immature mockeries of their true selves. Character development needs to be consistent with the characters and the rules established within the narrative.
But what do you know? You haven't read the novel and you have got basic lore wrong that even anime only-watchers would find suspicious. And you think you have the audacity to tell someone who has read the novels 4 times that his interpretation of the story the narrative was explicitly going for is not contradicted in MF and GO because....Well, there is no because. There is just you grasping at straws, which is not going to work on me.
You do realize this is still just brick fighting, right? You just glorified it in hopes that it would look more impressive.
Wow, crazy man.
Blowing up a galaxy, but died to something Master Chief from Halo shrugged off.
Old Types could manipulate the fundamental rules that governed reality. New Types are bricks that dies to someone bricking harder.
This....Does not change my point in any capacity. It's still not supposed to be compatible with the original Tsukihime and Kara. I feel like your brain is on auto-pilot now from the desperation, and you are just saying random shit instead of saving whatever face left and concede.
Nameless isn't the same as the Shirou from SN. Nameless Hero's Origin being the embodiment of other nameless heroes would include the other Emiya.
Yes, cool how none of this is stated:
You ignored my entire argument about Ryougi's Self Hypnosis, her ability to mimick complex techniques like the Nanaya Martial Arts by merely watching them, the mechanics of the Ryougi's powerset, SH bringing out someone's true nature and her connection to the source of all martial arts and nothingness itself. Concession accepted.
Ryougi's sword skills are also far beyond humanity due to representing the essence of the One itself and her becoming one with the source of all martial arts. Servants meanwhile are total fodders who have worse skill showings than Shizuki or Kiri Nanaya.
You just exposed yourself for being a shitposter with this. You don't care about being objective. You don't care about being accurate. You just care about wanking a bunch of dudes who died to the weakest version of someone that literally said Araya embodied his source of power.
Ryougi in a container called Monster. Summoned by a vague wish granting device. CCC literally seal the nail on the coffin for Servants, as it shows that fraction of Ryougi's essence obliterates them passively. Talk about a L.
Cool. Ryougi is the utmost peak of swordmanship possible in the entire franchise. She is one with Nothingness and her sword strikes embodies the essence of Akasha, granting them metaphysical properties rivaling MEoDP.
What in the actual ****? Dude, am I mentally taxing you this hard? This was YOUR explanation all this time. It's like the more you reply, the more you start to break down until you're entirely incoherent. Next I'll see you arguing with yourself outright
Cool fanfics, I'll but them for 4.2 bucks.
Not an argument. I don't even know why you replied here at this point.
Yawn, more coping and denial. Sit down, kid.
Also, how can you tell someone is "shouting" in a text-based discussion? Lmao
Come back when you actually read KnK/Tsukihime, and learn the amazing superpower of putting your bias aside and looking at the matter objectively.
It literally say the same exact thing as the official translation, just worded slightly different. The amount of mental gymnastic you are going through to deny a very simple statement is impressive and defies even my wildest expectations. If there is one thing you are actually good in, it's definitely coping.
I already explained all of this. After slaughtering Tohno, Ryougi confronts Archetype, who reveals that she was Void's target. Ryougi notices that AE has no Death in her, but is completely unfazed by this and is casually still intent on killing her. AE talks to Void and then acknowledges Ryougi, stating that she has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which she finds insulting. But since Tohno is dead, she is pissed, and thus decides to take it seriously and try to kill her, taunting her to stop her smile with the Death she brings. Ryougi so replies back and assures her that nothing can escape her MEoDP. As long as something is alive, she can kill even gods. The guidebook references this last catchphrase right as the fight begins and the game blacks out. It's confirming that Ryougi won, proving her assertion that she can kill anything as long as it lives, which has mountains of narrative backing that I can't help but notice you have completely ignored. Could it be that those statements held uncomfortable truths for you to deal with?
Yes. I don't envy the symptoms of vertigo you must be experiencing right now for finding something within that sentence that could be interpreted as " I had this vision of a user who will barge in the thread and I must say in advance that he has not read the series".
Are you saying that Ryougi dying to Archetype would count as her killing a god because if she gets killed, Void dies with her? That makes no sense if that's what you're saying. That's like saying if I have multiple personalities and die to something, I'm a murderer because I died... and the other personality as a result? lol
Besides, I have never said "Objectively wrong" to anything related to this particular topic of AE vs Ryougi, so I have frankly no idea what you are even replying to here.
She is bound to Shiki's will, yes. But Void can still send urges to her, including her murder instincts. Ryougi can resist them if she cares enough. But this time, she subconsciously agreed with the urges of killing AE. This is why she told Tohno that this night was special, as "she" was the one urging her on.
She said she has no death, then both acknowledge Ryougi can kill her regardless by instilling death.
Yes, because Araya is significantly stronger and faster than Archetype.
Unfortunately for Archetype, Ryougi at this point doesn't need trial and error for things, as her eyes are perfected now and can kill all things "without exception" according to Void:
In fact, even prior to the Epilogue, she already tapped into the non-local variation of MEoDP of Balor, as she destroyed the abstract boundaries sustaining Araya's infinite dimension:
She destroyed the abstract boundaries that are not physically located in space, but just exists as universal truths/laws that govern how Araya's dimension works. That's why the novel says "non-existent" limit, as in, it doesn't physically exist in space due to being abstract. Touko then further confirms that Ryougi can kill formless and abstract concepts:
You know what that means, right? If Shiki's MEoDP destroyed abstract concepts that have no form and don't physically exist in space, it means that the only way she could do that is by thinking them out of existence. As you can only think about the abstract and cannot physically locate it in space. Hence she started tapping into the perfected MEoDP used by Balor, to which she would then become more used to overtime, until comprehension isn't an issue anymore by the time of the Epilogue, as Void stated she can kill all things with no exceptions.
So she would just kill any ranged attack from Archetype, and think away her reality warping just like she thinked away Araya's infinite dimension.
You clearly haven't read any of the statements I sent if this is all you could understand. Allow me to repost them:
MEoDP is the manifestation of the truth that all things are contingent on Akasha for their existence and can be ended by it at anytime. With the KnK novel clearly mentioning that the only thing that could not be killed by MEoDP would be something truly without limitations of any kind like " " itself:
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
I don't really care if you fail to comprehend them even this second time. So I expect some actual counterargument now. Curious at how you'll prove that Archetype is omnipotent and doesn't rely on anything for her existence.
You're ignoring her acknowledging she can instill death.
She's shit talking. She may be confident she can win, but nothing implies she thinks it'll be a stomp. Are you saying two relative combatants never shit talk each other?
You are making distinctions without differences and arbitrarily affirming that AE's shit talk is more valid than Ryougi's shit talk. Besides, Ryougi saying this ends regardless of the outcome actually supports the notion they are comparable if anything, as the outcome is supposedly uncertain for her.
The franchise I read renders the vast majority of your takes moot.
Dear god, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. First off, all that Nasu said is that Shiki kills anything she perceives as "alive". Meaning that a broken phone cannot be killed because it is already dead to her, as its meaning ceased to be and is thus useless. Iirc there is even another statement where he says that Ryougi perceives anything interacting with reality as something she can kill, regardless of if they are alive or undead. But that's irrelevant, as I'm not interested in external comments from someone notoriously unreliable.
Second, not how MEoDP works? Say it to this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
So here is is how MEoDP works according to the story itself, not an idiot who is laughed off by the Fate/Zero's team and literally got asked in Q&As the reason he makes nonsensical statements: They observe the floor-plan of reality, allowing Ryougi to see and destroy the flaws holding an object together that traces back to Akasha. No matter how complex and diversified something is, it has a thread that permits its existence and connects it to Akasha. As long as something has limits in any capacity, Ryougi can find this limit and "cut" it. This extends to abstract and formless concepts as well. The only thing that Ryougi cannot kill are actually limitless and perfect existences like Akasha itself.
Now, the question is, is Archetype a perfect existence that relies on nothing but itself to exist? And the answer is no, as she is sourced from the Spiral of Origin. The Sarira in Araya's left arm were outright removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth, making them superior to simply not having a concept of Death in Gaia's reality. Yet, Ryougi could have killed even those, as they have cause for their existence at the end of the day (The enlightenment of a saint) and are physical objects with a history. Same thing for Araya's physical body, despite his essence being completely immortal in its truest sense.
Archetype has a physical body that physically moves and interacts with reality, with a cause for her overall existence. Meaning that Ryougi can kill her. The end.
No, that's Nasu spouting bullshit and fanboys like you wanking it as words of truth until it fits your agenda, instead of outright admitting from the start he is unreliable. Besides, Nasu did not even say what you meant. That's your poor misinterpretation of his words.
The only joke is you ignoring how Asagami is an absurd Origin awakened outlier among her family members who needs an entire week to bend a normal human's arm, that Ryougi was not at full power against Asagami and that this non-full power Ryougi was still significantly above Asagami.
The guidebook YOU provided later on in your post contradicts this.
His usual style, as said in the manual, and AFTER his development post Tsukihime routes and Melty Blood, if you attack him with the intent to cause him harm, he will 'destroy you'. He later goes on to say that 'this night is special' and 'this isn't my style'. This fight is fundamentally different for him.
His usual style is him being benign, hence he tried to introduce himself to Ryougi or whatever. Once he saw that she wasn't having it and was only interested in killing him, he took off his glasses and stated he will leave his usual style (Being benign) aside, as Ryougi openly wanted to harm him, hence he decided to "destroy her". Too bad he failed, as he was up against someone way out of his league.
Ryougi is the physical manifestation of the One, who has the potential of using all possible powers to a perfect extent should she gain knowledge of them (Like with MEoDP or Self Hypnosis), she is definitely surpassing the embodiment of just one of the countless concepts derived from her essence.
The Yumizuka fight? You mean the fight where Tohno would randomly blitz her until he reigned in his instincts again? Sure. The dogs were beings that he could and did defeat on his own.
He was hindered by the mental conflict with Roa in the Ciel Route. And prior to that? He matched Roa while noting that his body was moving on its own, while feeling the same instinct he was experiencing while he killed Arcueid at the beginning.
LMAO. So he used a lethal ability to make someone leave non-lethally? Do you even hear yourself? Or are you saying that Ryougi would get scared by the oh great Tohno and ran away at the sight of his MEoDP? A MEoDP that is significantly inferior and more underdeveloped compared to hers at that.
He taps into his instincts in literally every single route.
No, but he acts still very differently from the actual Nanaya. He does act meek and passive in KT. In fact, I remember you so eagerly posting the scan of him being incredibly gentle, which is clearly different from the Original personality Nanaya.
Ignoring my argument regarding Nrvnqsr and his feats of offensively beating the shit out of Arcueid tier character. Concession accepted.
Oh, and of course his top tier beasts are lesser in number compared to the weaker ones, since they are far more powerful and requires a greater amount of lives to manifest. Furthermore, you're saying he only has a few top beasts and the rest are fodder but this is baseless.
He has fodder ones.
He has better ones that he used against Arcueid.
And then he has ones beyond that.
However, you're assuming the only ones he has that are beyond Arcueid is the few top-tier beats of his, when there could be several tiers higher than the ones Arcueid fought before you reach those best of the best ones. The reason he only sent out so few against her too is because he underestimated how much strength she has left. This is backed up by the fact Nrvnqsr though Arcueid was too weak to do anything, so he wouldn't have sent out big guns in any capacity. They were just superior to his absolute weakest ones like the dogs.
An Arcueid that could barely walk and use an ability that empowers her as physically above her opponent. Here are these "fodder creatures" severely injuring Powered Ciel, who barely manages to win:
Never said it would be impossible. I simply said Arcueid thinks defeating him wouldn't be easy due to how strong he is. You do know that Nrvnqsr defeated Red Arcueid in AC, who defeated Arcueid so easily she said "What? Dead already?", right?
I was comparing Nrvnqsr to normal Arcueid. Why bring up Archetype? lol. So you admit that Arcueid cannot beat him without resorting to summoning AE?
They are multiple lives. But they are all "Nrvnqsr Chaos". They are many, but one. As evident by his final form being one singular beast.
I...What? This isn't coherent in the slightest and is not even what I said.
I'll make it very clear for you, since you seem to struggle having basic information relayed to you:
-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point.
It's an accident because people aren't meant to awaken their Origins. Him "breaking" his brain is the result of trying to comprehend the death of things he is not supposed to comprehend as a living being. However, he gets more used to perceiving more esoteric forms of death as he uses the eyes overtime. As stated by Arcueid:
This is why in Tsukihime he nearly pass out from killing a hallway, but later on by the time of Melty Blood he can kill the metaphysical information of a Tatari and "concepts beyond human comprehension" according to Sion. What matters though is him having the ability to perceive Death's unique channel with his Pure Eyes at all. Of course there are degrees of mastery attached to it following that. You are ironically downplaying Tohno by an extreme amount with your arguments now.
Yes. Kiri can not compete with Kouma. Kiri cannot compete with ANY Mixblood, no human can, Shiki included. It's their skill that lets them compete. This is explicit and the ENTIRE BASIS of the Nanaya Clan.
It is VERY explicitly the "skill" of a human that allows them to compete with Demons. This same concept is used for the Kiri-Kouma fight - ergo, if Kiri was in his prime (who doesn't have an "origin awakening", as you call it), he would have smoked him.
Alright.....So.....You are saying that the Nanayas cannot compete with demons physically, but they are able to overcome them thanks to their skill and assassination tactics. All fine. Then you randomly say that if Kiri was in his prime, he would have smoked Kouma, something that Kiri himself explicitly said he has no hope to do. What's even the connection here? lol
Imagine using dream worlds as evidence. Kishima literally got weaker after Shiki survived his initial three strikes and diminished as his "image of Death" the more he survived against him. His power was entirely contigent on Shiki's mental perception.
Gods? What gods? If those so called gods are below people that find armed men a force to be reckoned with, then they are not that impressive, yeah?
You didn't make an argument here. You just said they stem from Tohno, even though they clearly do not and your own mentioning of Nanaya saying he is Tohno's "guiding principle" that he refuses to use proves this.
You do realize that the Origin personality being the personality of the body, and the mind personality being capable of potentially resisting its urges if they have enough mental strength is universal to all Origin awakenings, right? The only thing Ryougi is unique in is that her Origin personality was awakened before the mind personality, when it's usually the opposite. But it has no bearing on her holding back her impulses.
Damn, that's crazy.
So to clarify:
- Explicitly stated that Dreamscape/TATARI stem "from his fear", NOT from anything even remotely classified as an Origin.
- The Nanaya in Ciel's route is explicitly his "Foundation" and not a seperate personality. Tohno is an extension of him.
Wrong on both fronts. Crazy.
He's a fictional personality in the sense he is part of the dream world that was conjured by his fears.
This is why in the real world, Tatari Nanaya, who, despite not being the real Nanaya, became a real entity in the real world, did not say he's a fictional personality, but Tohno's "guiding principle".
My bad on the second scan. It's not kid Nanaya, it's Nanaya openly saying that he's Tohno's foundation, meaning his origin, but he is not his past, aka he is not the boy from before the accident. He is the origin personality manifesting as his past child self in his mind for this last scene. This is actually MORE evidence that Nanaya is an Origin personality, so thank you for helping my case.
No, this is explictly what Origins are. They are the conceptual foundation of an individual, determining a lot of their traits, what kind of life the are going to be compatible with, their powers, etc.
No it's not the same. And the only one acting stubborn is you. Stop bringing up the remake in a discussion about the original series.
"-MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability that was triggered by a near-death accident, just like with Ryougi. Kiri said Kouma was on another league due to being naturally born with the power of Death, which is inherently superior to those like Kiri who can only chase after death but was never born with it as a natural trait. He then states only someone born broken and was a similar master of death could truly compete with Kouma, a clear reference to Shiki, whose capacity to see Death is in fact an innate ability of his, with said ability being explicitly an Origin power in KnK. And yes, Tohno's urges are separate because they come from his Origin personality Nanaya, but they can influence him too. Just like Void can influence Ryougi with her muder impulses. Thanks for proving my point. "
Bruh, the text clearly states that Kiri’s final strike was a once-in-a-lifetime maneuver, only made possible because he created Kishima’s blind spot by gouging his eye out as a child. Kiri sensed his own inability to keep up with Kishima in a direct fight, which is why he executed this specific strike. And the strike would have penetrated his head, not "exploded his head". On top of that, his final strike instilled a sense of living into Kouma finally, making him even more powerful. Funny how that goes. After dying, the text simply said that the reason he died was because he couldn't bring himself to kill Kouma back when he was a child, nothing else.
That's just Kiri trying to find a silver lining in his situation. Even though he doesn't possess Death innately, he views it as a distant goal he might one day reach. This perspective reflects his lifelong pursuit of killing without ever truly mastering it. It's largely a form of self-delusion as he faces death. This is framed within the context of his once-in-a-lifetime final strike, which he hoped might allow him to overcome an otherwise invincible opponent.
Ah, so Kouma, after mastering martial arts, hellfire manipulation, and CRV, and finally feeling alive while seeking enlightenment, is somehow weaker than his untrained, emotionless self who lacked control over his supernatural Origin powers. Understood.
Is Jihan the doctor Kiri visited? The text indicates that after Shiki's birth, Kiri developed human emotions, shifting from a desire to "kill people" to a wish to "make people live." This change led him to retire from demon hunting, resulting in his family falling from the top and becoming a liability that needed to be eliminated. The discussion focuses more on Kiri's change in personality rather than his power.
The only power-related detail that stands out is the general claim that the Nanayas transition between generations before physical decline begins, ensuring that the next generation is already mature when the decline starts.
Since Shiki is still growing up, Kiri would be several years away from the onset of his physical decline.
They are the same thing, as stated in KnK, which you did not read. So not surprised you are talking out of your ass here too:
The mind resides in the brain, and the soul resides in the body.
"Muh, I debate series I haven't read"
See, this is why I know you have 0 knowledge of the source material and you are not approaching this in good faith. I went through the depths to prove Araya's superiority over Arcueid in my previous post, and you ignored it all entirely just to repeat the same debunked crap like a broken record. I would like my efforts to educate you to be reciprocated, thank you.
For starters, Araya is not just a monk, he is the embodiment of an abstract theory, a living monster that has achieved true immortality and gained "overwhelming power" from the anguish he accumulated overtime.
Secondly, he is only stated to be average when it comes to being a magus, which is vague. Even Aoko is said to be terrible as a general magus, in spite of her exceptional power for breaking things. Araya's own power is top class, as his Origin is only directly subordinate to Ryougi's, and he is stated to be above the entirety of the modern era in physical combat, which would include the organization similar to the Nanayas that trained Soujuurou Shizuki.
Thirdly, his natural talent for his bounded fields stems from his Origin. He literally accidentally and subconsciously mastered them simply due to them aligning with his nature and understanding of reality he has gained overtime. He then constructed his realm where he could experiment without interference from the Counterforce, and he literally made a second creation, an infinite dimension he could structure the rules of and gained full mastery over spatial boundaries. After Ryougi killed his body and his consciousness is sent into Akasha, allowing him to gain insight into the Dyad/Stillness in its truest abstract state, he will fully master his Origin powers, which are insanely beyond Archetype's.
Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks.
True, he says even dumber shit. It's embarassing really. There is a reason the Fate/Zero writes made fun of his statements.
I never mentioned Void Shiki being omnipotent. The strongest in the verse? Absolutely. Omnipotent? Nah. And the narrative would fall apart completely if she wasn't anything less or more than Nigh-omnipotent.
With that being said, what does that have anything to do with Nasu making incorrect statements on basic lore and characterization, beyond mere power levels?
You forgot that he is also a compulsive liar, as he openly admitted.
And all I need to know is that there is indeed evidence that he either didn't truly write everything, or that he had some drastic mental decline over the years. But this is not truly relevant to the point. It's more so of a consequence of the objectively stupid claims he makes. The point is that if an author says something that contradicts the series, his word is invalid. If he said Ryougi's hair was green, it's contradicted by the series and not valid. Simple.
He did have them from the start. He just didn't have the right trigger to become conscious of those abilities and actually use them.
Except nothing says that the version Nanaya uses is actually the complete version.
Are you ******* messing with me now? Read the story you wank so much at least:
The psychic are human powers that are actually outside the common boundaries of the human race. This has nothing to do with the Nanaya's physical abilities, which are clearly differentiated from their psychic abilities and are simply described as "trained to the limit". Meanwhile Shiki's body actually goes beyond its own limits to keep up with the superior mind enhanced by Origin awakening
Some. But the vast majority is weakened, Shiki would be among those, given that her feats completely ***** all over Servants. And I think I already made clear that I don't give a shit about her shitty discount GO depiction anyway.
There was no development. There was simply Shiki and Mikiya devolving into immature mockeries of their true selves. Character development needs to be consistent with the characters and the rules established within the narrative.
But what do you know? You haven't read the novel and you have got basic lore wrong that even anime only-watchers would find suspicious. And you think you have the audacity to tell someone who has read the novels 4 times that his interpretation of the story the narrative was explicitly going for is not contradicted in MF and GO because....Well, there is no because. There is just you grasping at straws, which is not going to work on me.
You do realize this is still just brick fighting, right? You just glorified it in hopes that it would look more impressive.
Wow, crazy man.
Blowing up a galaxy, but died to something Master Chief from Halo shrugged off.
Old Types could manipulate the fundamental rules that governed reality. New Types are bricks that dies to someone bricking harder.
This....Does not change my point in any capacity. It's still not supposed to be compatible with the original Tsukihime and Kara. I feel like your brain is on auto-pilot now from the desperation, and you are just saying random shit instead of saving whatever face left and concede.
Nameless isn't the same as the Shirou from SN. Nameless Hero's Origin being the embodiment of other nameless heroes would include the other Emiya.
Yes, cool how none of this is stated:
You ignored my entire argument about Ryougi's Self Hypnosis, her ability to mimick complex techniques like the Nanaya Martial Arts by merely watching them, the mechanics of the Ryougi's powerset, SH bringing out someone's true nature and her connection to the source of all martial arts and nothingness itself. Concession accepted.
Ryougi's sword skills are also far beyond humanity due to representing the essence of the One itself and her becoming one with the source of all martial arts. Servants meanwhile are total fodders who have worse skill showings than Shizuki or Kiri Nanaya.
You just exposed yourself for being a shitposter with this. You don't care about being objective. You don't care about being accurate. You just care about wanking a bunch of dudes who died to the weakest version of someone that literally said Araya embodied his source of power.
Ryougi in a container called Monster. Summoned by a vague wish granting device. CCC literally seal the nail on the coffin for Servants, as it shows that fraction of Ryougi's essence obliterates them passively. Talk about a L.
Cool. Ryougi is the utmost peak of swordmanship possible in the entire franchise. She is one with Nothingness and her sword strikes embodies the essence of Akasha, granting them metaphysical properties rivaling MEoDP.
What in the actual ****? Dude, am I mentally taxing you this hard? This was YOUR explanation all this time. It's like the more you reply, the more you start to break down until you're entirely incoherent. Next I'll see you arguing with yourself outright
Cool fanfics, I'll but them for 4.2 bucks.
Not an argument. I don't even know why you replied here at this point.
Yawn, more coping and denial. Sit down, kid.
Also, how can you tell someone is "shouting" in a text-based discussion? Lmao
Come back when you actually read KnK/Tsukihime, and learn the amazing superpower of putting your bias aside and looking at the matter objectively.
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how ironic
also, you do know that archetype being the ultimate one of earth automatically means she’s the strongest existence on earth,right?
there you go, basic lore information on ultimate ones negs your weird knk agenda
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There is a wild difference between "Her fate was to become a god killer", and the outcome of the being the "murder of a god". One is ambiguous at best, the other was not.
Your entire argument hinges on a japanese statement that doesn't say what you think it says.
It is not my fault if you make outlandish statements such as "being a natural killer = origin awaken", or "Shirou Emiya's Origin is 'Hero'". That is entirely your fault.
The outcome of the fight was "the murder of a god". If Ryougi wins, Archetype Earth dies, and she's considered a god. If AE wins, both Ryougi and Void die, and Void is considered a god. Hence "murder of a god". It's not a hard concept to understand.
Outright said to not be the case.
She was humoring her attempt. "You are here to kill something that cannot die.". It's AE mocking her. Unlike Remake Tohno, Ryougi Shiki has no such ability that gives the concept of death to something that doesn't have it.
The man who got immediately destroyed by a demon in a briefcase. Yes, sure, I believe it. Definitely.
Cool! Except AE literally 'cannot die'. Next.
You are not saying what you mean to say. Balor's MEODP works off of sight, literally killing things with a glare. Neither Ryougi nor Tohno have that, even with Remake Tohno's ability that neither of them share.
Once again, that is NOT what Balor's MEODP does. Secondly, the ability to kill "existence" is an ability all MEODP have. As in "to see a line on existence". The same thing exists for "space". This is not a 'perfected MEODP' headcanon thing, but a regular ability she has.
Archetype Earth explicitly does not have "a concept of death". She needs to be destroyed physically, not through MEODP. Her existing through Akasha is irrelevant. Tohno's eyes grow to the point that Aoko's glasses cannot contain them, while they could contain Ryougi's.
You're talking about a line about AE mocking her. She calls her "impulse driven", and that she's the same way. 'Relative' when Ryougi's only boon isn't working on AE. Great work there.
Ryougi saying "regardless of the outcome, the dream will end" is her saying that she's going home regardless of the outcome, because the world is a dream to her. That is all. She's literally excusing herself with "if I win or lose, my mission is over." Not helping your case.
You outright admitted that the author never intends to write or believes in the things you're claiming, so I'm not sure about that.
I don't know man
| Kara no Kyoukai 3 DVD Booklet Interview (2008) |
| "As long as it's alive", however. The thing is, God is not alive or dead so Shiki can't do anything to him. However, Shiki can kill what she thinks to be "alive", for example, say a telephone that she perceives as "being alive because it's not broken". On the other hand, if it's broken and therefore feels it's "already dead", she won't see lines. |
You think that Nasu was not the one who wrote Tsukihime or KnK, so I'm not entirely sure what you're babbling about lol
Cool! She's a branch family member. She comes from a bad family, sure, but she's barely at the level of the "regular psychics" talked about in red demon god. Not helping your case.
The thing YOU quoted said "he is usually benign, BUT if you come at him with the intent to harm him, he will destroy you." Once he noticed that Ryougi wanted to harm him, he said "This night is special. I will leave my usual style behind, and make sure you leave TOGETHER with your eyes." In no world is that 'I am going all-out against you'.
- Be Ryougi Shiki
- Get destroyed by your dad in sword-combat
- Immediately fall into a coma after this
- Refuse to continue practicing
- Use a sword for one (1) fight
- Use the same techniques any other old-timey Samurai has (as that was what your clan taught you)
- People think you're the peak of swordsmanship
Yes, the Yumizuka fight. The fight where Shiki was thrown around like a ragdoll against a Yumizuka that wasn't attempting to kill him at the moment. The dogs he delt with after almost dying on the spot (ALMOST), and then almost got obliterated by Nero.
Arcueid even comments in the Nero fight, saying that if Nero hadn't toyed around with him at first it would've been over instantly.
A mental conflict with roa does not interfere with the "foundation" of a person entirely.
One would assume that when faced with the ability of "if they touch you, you die", they would run away. Neither of them know much about the other.
But not in every fight, no.
Yes, the Nanaya that was raised by Kiri, before he experienced eight years of Tohno Shiki's life. "Original Personality Nanaya" and you're talking about Shiki's edgy deviantart OC.
Ciel is not "Arcueid Tier" by any means if you're saying that his "fodder beasts" lost to her extreme-diff lol.
The fact that Nero only sent out five beasts after he took Shiki seriously implies that there aren't many "top tier" beasts in store for him. FIVE. After previously sending out literally hundreds at people.
You're switching things around. First, you claim that MEODP stems from Tohno's body/it being a Psychic Ability, which would make it genetic, then you claim that it's a power of the soul. Pick one.
Tohno's urges do not come from his "origin personality". Dreamscape Nanaya is something made from 'fear'.
Yes, those who are 'natural killers' have an inherit advantage. However, there is a "horizon" for people to reach in order to match them.
I do not think Tohno Shiki is a destroyer of worlds or a god of the franchise, no.
I gave you a quote that explicitly said that Shiki's eyes are meant to only be Pure Eyes, and that it was due to a connection to the root that he got after being "submerged in death".
| Kara no Kyoukai 3 DVD Booklet Interview (2008) |
| For example, Tohno Shiki from "Tsukihime" normally can't cut concepts like Shiki does, but that's because the specs of the Mystic's Eye's user's brain is different. Tohno Shiki is not suited in the aspect of recognizing "concepts". (Ryougi) Shiki is specialized in the visualization of events that stem from " ", while (Tohno) Shiki became submerged in death and became specialized in killing living things. |
If Kiri was in his prime, Kouma would have died from that last hit. As the text says, if Kouma was hit ANY harder, his head would have fallen off. Kiri says that those who are natural born killers are 'born broken' and start off differently from other people, and then IMMEDIATELY AFTER says "However, there is a Horizon that one could reach" if you are NOT "born with death".
So you're saying that a Tohno Shiki, who adapted to the might of a man who near-death, fading from reality, with the loss of his abilities, fought MODERN Kouma to a stalemate, was BARELY able to dodge three blows from "full power" RDG Kouma?
Thank you.
They are explicitly stated to have divine beings far above Demons in their ranks, yes.
"You said they stem from Tohno, even though they don't" you say, in response to an explicit quote saying that they do.
She's not getting the full brunt of it.
No, no. He said "originally". He's ORIGINALLY a fictional personality that was created by fear. He's not an Origin.
By "Foundation", it's literally just referring to the 'memory sets' issue that "Shiki" has going on. It's not that deep. He's the 'real' one, and Tohno took his place. If you want to use remake, this is outright said, while only implied in the original visual novel.
You can tell even further, considering OG Nanaya outright says that he wants to grow old, while TATARI Nanaya outright wanted to "go out with a bang".
Which would be great, if it wasn't for the fact that Tohno Shiki was originally NOT 'born broken'. Nanaya was not a natural killer, yet Tohno is.
- MEODP is not an Origin Power. This is outright stated.
- It is, WORD FOR WORD, saying that Tohno's urges do NOT come from anyone named "Nanaya Shiki", and that they stem from "Tohno Shiki"
- Kiri said that anyone can compete with a natural born killer given they reach the horizon.
Not "only" due to creating a blindspot, but it made it easier. The strike would have "made his neck fall off", implying that he would have been decapitated had Kiri not weakened. My saying his head would explode is an exaggeration, but the core result of "Kouma would have outright died" remains.
The 'simplest reason', not the "only". Jihan and Kiri both outright comment that Kiri retiring would cause him to die.
So, what you're telling me, "you're only allowed take certain parts of a scene as valid". Not exactly an argument on your end. Especially does not help how the scene itself is not written using Kiri's thoughts. It's an independent narrator talking about each fighters point of view, unless you're telling me that Kiri manifested as a ghost and read both Shiki and Kouma's mind after he died.
The Kouma after "gaining emotions" and weakening just like Kiri did is weaker than the natural born killer who did things naturally, yes. This was the reason why Kiri died, it is also the reason why Tohno was having so much trouble with RDG Kouma.
...what?
They outright said that Kiri would never be able to attain "the horizon" because of it, and that they accepted the end that was to come.
Cool! Doesn't apply to Nanaya Shiki, as he was not "born with death".
Araya outright notes that Touko could have killed him and destroy the entire complex if she opened her briefcase.
No, no she isn't lol.
Are you referring to Nasu joking about a dead apostle named "Curry"?
You think that Nasu did not write Tsukihime.
Then he was not "born broken". He did not have it from the start. He had to find it. "Talented", not "Natural". Kouma, for example, is outright stated to do everything naturally, to the point that he never even consciously breathed until Kiri "woke him up".
I think Tohno outright acknowledging and remembering that it's the same exact "dance" Kiri used is enough, unless you want to start talking to me about "The Nanaya Clan never mastered Nanaya Arts"
The power of Demon and Demon Hunters originate from "Nature". Psychic Ability does NOT follow those rules, as it does not follow the rules of "yin and yang".
The work, then, EXPLICITLY SAYS that Psychic Ability is the "power of the human race, who became detached from Nature". It follows the rules of a human, which is evident because -
It is consistently described as being "the power of a human". In your own words, I'm not sure you've read the scene you're quoting.
Ryougi is not one of them. That is confirmed.
| Source. |
| The Shiki in the event is the Shiki after the events of Kara no Kyoukai. But even if the characters of Kara no Kyoukai show up in the world of FGO, the whole city would’ve already been in ruins. But Shiki is special – she’s dead, but not quite. Her body had burned, but it’s yet to completely burn up. She’s there, just right before dying, asleep. The Ogawa Apartments that we see is the dream that Shiki is seeing. During the event, Shiki would say things like, “This is an awful nightmare,” or “I can’t wake up, so come with me,” and if she does wake up, she, like everyone else, would die out along with the time period she’s in. But if she doesn’t wake up, she’ll avoid the destruction of humanity as long as she’s in that dream, and she’ll be able to return to her original world. If she’s in that situation, Shiki Ryougi can show up in the scenario. The collab is between FGO and a previous TYPE-MOON work, so I wrote it so that it’s still FGO without ruining the core of the Kara no Kyoukai series. |
He has UBW. His Origin is "Sword". That is why he has UBW in the first place.
He literally calls his abilities useless in KT lol.
Her sword skills are explicitly the same as a Samurai, and her only showing against another Ryougi Clan member has been her... losing. Her sword skills are not "beyond humanity" if her greatest technique is something that ANY Samurai could do. Or her... losing to Servants. This isn't "Extraverse Ryougi", because she barged her way into the Mooncell on her own. Lol.
Touko outright says that she's in the mooncell to "find a friend of hers". She was not summoned there. She barged into there on her own. That "container" you speak of, is the games way of saying she isn't supposed to be there, otherwise she'd have one of the usual Class containers.
Right. So, to be clear
- Said in KnK that her greatest technique is something any Samurai could do
- Her ONLY swordfight on record is something she lost
- She outright loses to people who "transcend humanity". Hell, the REASON she sees Lines and Points to begin with is because she's within human limits lol.
That was what you said.
I generally should expect you to read the thing you're quoting from...
Overlord_Darkness
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7 tickets. She's quite good
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So I think Servantverse might have gotten nerfed a lil bit from Ciel’s profile.
Apparently Servantverse characters get actively nerfed when outside the Servantverse with them becoming average servants.
Apparently Servantverse characters get actively nerfed when outside the Servantverse with them becoming average servants.
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I think only Ciel's profile mentions something like that. We had an entire event where Servantverse and normal Servants fought each other in a tournament, and there wasn't any indication that the Servantverse Servants were weaker here in Fate/Grand Order's world.
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Summer Passionlip is real, and here's her expression sheet.
Here's summer female Hakuno's expression sheet.
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Here are some of Ciel's lines. She's 100% Tsukihime Remake Ciel.
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Summer CE flavor text translations
Translation of one of the Anniversary CE's flavor text
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I have a question.. Who is the strongest primordial goddes?
asthart origin?
asthart origin?
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beast Eresh says they’re equal, so she would be too
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There isn't. Not in this context. The MB guidebook says Ryougi is going to kill Archetype in their fight because the destiny in store for her is to become a god killer. This is only referring to Archetype, as the entire thing is talking about that fight. Please, seek professional help.
Projection. My argument hinges on what the official text explicitly states under a very clear context.
I still have no idea why this is such a sinful statement. Regardless, this is just more whining.
It's not my fault, since you are unable to read:
Nameless Hero is not Shirou Emiya, whose Origin is sword. He is another person whose Origin is the remnant of the ideals of nameless heroes, which would likely include Shirou.
The phrase "What destiny had in story for Ryougi next was her becoming a god killer" clearly indicates that Ryougi's fate is tied to her role as a "god killer," specifically referring to her confrontation with Archetype. This term directly links her destiny to defeating a powerful entity, not to an ambiguous outcome where multiple scenarios are considered. Your own unofficial translation is saying the same under the context of the narrative. Context is everything. But so far you have failed to grasp very basic information relayed to you. So meh.
Fact: Base Ryougi > Archetype Earth.
Outright said to not be the case.
Not sure what translation this is. Maybe Steam? Well, the more lore accurate community edition says nothing of the sorts:
Next.
Your point? How does Archetype thinking she can beat Ryougi disproves her being able to instill Death in AE at all? AE is simply confident she can kill Shiki without her being able to do that. Ryougi confirmed it as well, which is backed up by the rest of KnK and the narrative context of the omniscient Void urging her to take Arc out.
But she does. That's what the story tells us. I also love how you think Tohno can have it instead, when he is factually an inferior MEoDP user to Ryougi.
That's Alba. Araya never actually fought the suitcase demon, he simply said it might be able to beat him. However, that only speaks to the monster's strength, especially since it's stated to be able to potentially consume the entire apartment complex, which contains an infinite realm in its walls.
Also, stellar counterargument to the entire explanation regarding Araya's powers. Concession accepted.
Stellar counterargument to the statements I presented. Concession accepted.
Shirou tier statement right there.
Ryougi thinked away an abstract concept. If that's not Balor's version, then it's a superior non-local thought based version.
It does. If you insist it doesn't, then "it's a superior non-local thought based version."
You missed the point entirely. Hilarious. The space Ryougi was in was infinite. Meaning it had no actual phyical limit you could locate in space. As said space is boundless. However, it had an overall limit in the form of the abstract boundaries that governed it and defined the dimension. To even have the infinity of space, you need to have rules that allows for space to even exist in the first place: The abstract, the limit of physical infinity. But abstract things occupy 0 space and can only be mentally accessed. Since Ryougi destroyed those abstract concepts, she is capable of using a variation of MEoDP to erase things with her thoughts as opposed to physically slicing lines. The Novel even said she "cut" (Metaphorically, she didn't even have her knife) the non-existent limit of the dimension. As the abstract does not technically exist in space. This means Ryougi in that scene started tapping into a non-local version of MEoDP that requires more effort and focus than her default mode, and she would get more used to this new variation overtime just like MEoDP users become increasingly more used to perceive the Death of more complex things. Until Void by the time of the Epilogue states that Void can kill all things with no exceptions, meaning comprehension is not an issue for her anymore by then.
Ah, who am I kidding? You didn't understand shit, did you?
Her existing through Akasha is crucial and the very reason MEoDP is as powerful as it is to begin with. But sure, dismiss the blatant evidence in front of you to keep wanking spidermen clan. Concession accepted.
Yes, because Ryougi is several ranks higher than Tohno as a MEoDP user, thus she can effortlessly control the eyes and turn them off and on on her own without needing to suppress them:
Secondly, Ryougi's feat of destroying the abstract boundaries of Araya's dimension places her beyond Tohno. As MB Tohno was unable to perceive lines on Tatari, who was an abstract phenomena like the laws sustaining Araya's dimension. Sion said only Arcueid at that stage could kill Tatari, as she can manipulate the abstract laws of Gaia through marble phantasm. Furthermore, in Dawn, when Tohno killed Maiko Yamase, Arcueid said that Tohno cannot actually kill the concept of "chaos", but can kill the concept of "you" referring to Maiko. This is further evidence he is unable to kill purely non-local phenomena like Ryougi, and is limited to perceiving the end of concrete existences.
Ryougi has both feats and statements of being a superior MEoDP user.
Give up on Tohno dude, he is unfortunately forever bound to be the lamer Shiki.
Ignoring all context and the guidebook confirming Ryougi won. Concession accepted.
Community edition time!
No mention of the sorts. How surprising (Not really).
I must ask: do you have Nasu hostage at your house and are forcing him to whispers his intentions in your ears? Because I have no idea how is this relevant to the actual text of the actual story supporting my argument.
I don't know man. Seems I already explained this in my previous comment and you just ignore it because you are impervious to critical thinking.
I said that a "regular psychic" with telekinesis has only a single channel of rotation and takes an entire week to bend a normal human's arm. Asagami can instantly crush bridges and rotate things in both directions. She is also indirectly stated by Araya himself to be an Origin awakened being, which explains why she is absurdly more powerful than all demon hunters. You ignore this and claim that she is still on the level of a regular TK user despite the very conception of her character saying otherwise. You are disconnected from reality entirely. Please, seek professional help.
Glad you agree with me and admitted he stopped being benign as usual and got serious when he perceived Ryougi had the intent to harm him. "Making her leave" is vague and could be very easily a metaphor for Death. Like how he said he'll sing Wallachia's last requiem. After all, why specifically activate MEoDP if you do not have the intention of killing someone?
Ryougi herself stated that she never actually used Self Hypnosis up until Chapter 5, prior to her going to Araya's building. So this is irrelevant to her skill. From a physical standpoint, the one that lost to her father was pre-coma Ryougi, who had none of her Origin awakening's power. It's only after her incident that connected her mind to the Death aspect of her Origin that she could benefit from the stats enhanced by the transcendental mind. She stated herself that she has suddenly gotten better right after her coma:
Regarding "the samurai technique", I already explained all relevant context with extensive amount of evidence to back it up. As usual, you completely ignored all of that and repeated your objectively wrong opinions. Concession accepted.
Yes, the same fight where he accidentally blitzed her for a brief Moment until he held back his impulses again.
Key word almost. He didn't actually risk to die since he barely managed to win.
That was referring to him killing Tohno quickly without giving Nanaya the chance to come out. And guess what? Nanaya coming out when Tohno was being mauled by Nrvnqsr's creatures.....Proves my point of Nanaya influencing or even outright taking over in near-death situations.
It does. Especially when said foundation is contingent on the mind to reason and take over the body.
Ah yes. So I'm supposed to believe that Ryougi got scared and left the scene after seeing MEoDP. Even though she literally got excited seeing them and was determinated in slaughtering them. If you think that's enough to scare Ryougi off, you are just further proving you know absolutely nothing about the character, and thus you have no right to be arguing for or against her.
Sure, but in most. And Tohno already made it clear he was going for the kill in the cutscene.
Ciel overpowered Sion in a much more convincing fashion than 30% Warcueid did. Same Sion that also forced 30%+ Arcueid to get a little serious and was praised by her for being able to keep up with her moves. Powered Ciel is even stronger than her base form.
Ok? I literally said he doesn't have many top tier beasts due to their power and amount of lives required.
My point was that this doesn't mean he lacks numerous other creatures above the ones he used on Arcueid. He just skipped straight to his stronger ones after seeing how powerful Nanaya was. And even then, the top beasts compensate their lack of numbers with much greater individual stats. Nanaya even said the sense of danger from those made the more normal beasts look like nothing.
No I'm not. You are simply unable to keep up with me in a debate. But it's not my fault you are threatening a tank with a water gun.
The personality of the Soul is contained within the body. The Soul holds all the powers of the Origin. However, the mind must gain knowledge and awareness of the Soul's nature to harness these powers through the body. The body is shaped by the Soul it contains, and is configured to manifest and utilize its powers once the mind triggers their use under the appropriate conditions.
Yes, fear of the killer within him made from unused aspects of his being, aka the Original personality.
Disregarded my explanation of the proper context of this quote. Concession accepted.
Then why are you wanking him above the actual goddess of the franchise?
Connection to the Root derived from his Origin being Death, which is a fundamental concept deeply related to Akasha indeed.
Disregarded my explanation of the proper context of the fight. Concession accepted.
Disregarded my explanation regarding the dream world and why it's irrelevant to the real Kouma. Concession accepted.
No they don't. Remake's lore is irrelevant to the original lore.
I frankly have no idea what the **** you are even about here, since your wording has devolved into a mess. Let's make it clear: Tohno's killing instincts comes from his soul/origin, that is an objective fact. It is blatantly stated that the default urges/instincts of a person stem from the Origin. And Nanaya is the personality of said soul. He can influence Tohno with his instincts and occasionally take over in dire situations. This is how it works. Everything else is irrelevant.
"originally" is in the context of him being able to replace the real Shiki despite him being a fictional entity in a dream world.
Except he says that he is not his past, aka he is not the boy from before the accident. He is the origin personality manifesting as his past child self in his mind for this last scene.
Tatari is an imperfect manifestation that became more human-like according to Kishima. He also influenced by Wallachia.
-"Tohno is not born broken", (in the context of someone being a master of death, aka innately wielding its power).
-"Tohno was a natural killer."
Ok.
What's outright stated is that it IS an Origin power:
It's a power of the body/soul personality, which is directly shaped by the Origin. Void further states that the reason Shiki can perceive DP's unique channel is her Origin being connected to Akasha:
Tohno's MEoDP are also stated to be an innate power possessed since birth:
And that it was a natural ability possessed by his body that was triggered by the accident:
Which is literally what side materials and Touko also said about Ryougi:
Notice also how Ryougi is stated to be always "Looking at the heart of everything", which shows she is naturally predisposed to seeing things invisible to normal people, just like Tohno and Pure Eyes. She is in fact stated to be able to see spirits separately from the Lines of Death:
So fact: MEoDP is an Origin power. Tohno's MEoDP is stated to be an innate ability triggered from a near death experience, with both him and Ryougi being meant to see what is normally invisible to the human eyes. Add the whole thing of RDG about natural born killers (An obvious reference to Origin awakening) outclassing talented killers that however did not innately possessed death but could only chase after it, and there you have it. This also explains why Tohno's power level depends on his mindset and how much he is willing to kill and give into his instincts, just like Ryougi and Lio, who we know are Origin awakened characters as well. Sion specifices that this is the result of Tohno's mind and killing skills surpassing his physical body's limit, amping it massively when filled with concentration. Now, why is that? Simple: Origin awakening makes the mind aware of the underlying phenomena and the soul shaping their existence, enabling them to perform beyond their natural physical limits.
So far you haven't even come close to providing a valid alternative interpretation.
They are the same person dude, lol.
Disregarded my explanation regarding the context of the fight. Concession accepted.
Disregarded my explanation regarding the context of the fight. Concession accepted.
Yes, because if the Nanayas were not at the top of demon hunting anymore, there was no reason for other organizations to leave them alive. Hence the Tohno launched their attack.
This is a misunderstanding of my point. The fact that the scene is narrated from an independent perspective doesn’t negate the validity of the information conveyed. The narration can still reflect Kiri’s thoughts and the broader context of the situation, even if it's not from his direct viewpoint. The argument isn't about limiting what can be considered valid but understanding that the narration encompasses multiple perspectives and provides a complete picture of the events.
Kouma is a natural-born killer both before and after gaining emotions. However, acquiring a sense of living unlocked his Origin powers and significantly boosted his strength. The power of an Origin-awakened being depends heavily on their willpower and mindset. For example, Ryougi Shiki struggled with Lio when she was hesitant, but she easily defeated him once she stopped caring. During his fight with Kiri, Kishima was an empty shell, uninterested in anything and content to disappear unnoticed. After the fight, however, he began to feel alive and developed a renewed drive that enhanced his mental state. By the time of Melty Blood, he was actively seeking enlightenment, had trained extensively, and practiced his family's martial arts.
KT Kouma is just a mental copy of RDG Kishima, acting as image of "death" that Tohno conjured, and whose power was directly influenced by how much Tohno feared him as said vision of Death. It has no bearing on their power levels in the actual real world.
...what?
They outright said that Kiri would never be able to attain "the horizon" because of it, and that they accepted the end that was to come.
Yes? Nothing to do with his power. Just his mentality and way of living. lol.
He was. That's why he has MEoDP. I already explained this.
Yes, that's a good showing for the demon. So? KnK Araya is physically far above Archetype, but he cannot still defeat her overall since his reality warping is very underdeveloped at that point in time. But his future self with full mastery over Stillness is literally only below Void, and no one besides her scales to him. Again, I advise you to actually read what I'm writing.
Yes, yes she is lol.
Void stated that she can go even further than normal Ryougi in terms of manipulating aspects of the Swirl of the Root, to the extent you may as well consider her to be the Swirl itself:
Void is essentially the manifestation of The One, an imperfect avatar that is still contingent on The One, as opposed to being The One itself. While she is part of it, she is not entirely the same as it. In terms of power, she derives as many capabilities as feasibly possible for a non-omnipotent being to have, since an individual's origin dictates their powers and traits. Given that her origin is The One itself, Void would logically possess the most abilities possible. However, she remains contingent upon The One, directly subordinate to it, and not The One itself. Void shows what The One's will would be if it had sentience, to the extent that if The One ever self-actualized a sentient mind, it would be Void Shiki, but omnipotent. For now, though, The One lacks a sentient mind, and Void is the next best thing.
As to what Void can do:
So it's clear Void is a nigh-omnipotent avatar of The One, expressing its hypothetical will if it were to gain sentience, with her being capable of granting almost any wish/doing almost anything, such as rewrite the laws of nature, overturn the system of the world, etc.
And we know "world" in this context refers to all creation, given the context of the rest of her conversation with Mikiya, such as this:
In the same way the narrative of KnK collapses if Void was omnipotent, it collapses if she was anything less than what she is described to be here.
Araya's whole goal was to reach The One through Shiki's origin, which is The One. His entire plan would've been pointless if Shiki was secretly just fodder. The entire narrative around him would've been mostly pointless. Hell, Void coming out at all to grant Mikiya almost any wish, along with the conversation meant to explain what she is, would've been completely pointless.
I'm referring to him being notoriously known for having the pathological need of lying constantly, which ties into him saying in Q&As that he sometimes make nonsensical statements because he has deadlines pressure, which ties into the Fate/Zero's staff laughing at his incoherent statements, which ties into his track record of contradicting both the actual stories and even his own interview statements on basic lore, beyon power levels. I'd rather you form your own argument from the source material, rather than blindly citing Nasu. Again, read the thread I sent you. It compiled a lot of his nonsense. It's precisely because I respect the original works that I'm quick to criticize his bullshit. As It undermines the actual story.
You don't seem to understand that you do not instantly access the full scope of your Origin powers when it is awakened. To fully access and enhance these powers, one must achieve a deeper understanding of their principle and related elements, as well as reach a more advanced mental state. Kouma being able to do everything naturally despite being at his absolute weakest, to the point he couldn't even consciously breathe, outclassing even a talented killer like Kiri.... quite literally proves he is an Origin awakened character. This is why Kiri put himself below him and made that whole comparison in the first place. Holy shit dude, you debunked yourself.
This is just a stupid strawman.
Edit: I misunderstood your point, but that's mostly due to your shitty wording still. Anyway, this is a non-argument. Him doing the exact same dance refers to him being able to perform the technique. It doesn't mean he can use it with the same level of proficiency as Kiri.
The power of Demon and Demon Hunters originate from "Nature". Psychic Ability does NOT follow those rules, as it does not follow the rules of "yin and yang".
The work, then, EXPLICITLY SAYS that Psychic Ability is the "power of the human race, who became detached from Nature". It follows the rules of a human, which is evident because -
It is consistently described as being "the power of a human". In your own words, I'm not sure you've read the scene you're quoting.
No, the term "human" here refers to powers that are naturally developed by certain individuals and do not interact directly with nature, but still fall outside the normal human capabilities. Essentially, these are superhuman abilities that extend beyond typical human limits, yet still stem from humanity, so they are categorized as "human" powers from a definitional standpoint. Furthermore, this distinction is irrelevant to your point anyways:
The Nanaya’s body is described as being "trained to the limit," which means it is inferior to Tohno’s and other Origin-awakened beings. This description is clearly separate from the "power outside the boundary of a human," which refers specifically to their psychic abilities, as highlighted by the context of the entire conversation. The text just also notes that the Nanayas trained their physical abilities to the utmost limits of human capability, in addition to their psychic powers, which operated beyond the normal realm of human's possibility, which is why they were known as the strongest demon hunters.
Imagine using info from GO. If we are going to arbitrarily pick butchered and contradicting versions of characters, then I can easily take AATM Arcueid who admitted Saber is more pratical than her, meaning she is beyond fodder. Funny, isn't it?
I already explained this. Concession accepted. Oh, you also completely ignored Rani, White Sakura and the Servants blatantly stating that MMCs are Origin awakenings and them using the same exact black box imagery as KnK. Double concession accepted. Your only counter to that is crying "muh you said FSN hirou's Origin is Hero (Not true to begin with)". Lmao, waste of time.
Yet he could easily use them. "Useless if I stopped practicing" could refer to getting rusty, but it could refer to it being useless if he doesn't master it all. Pretty sure there is context about that, but I honestly have stopped caring enough to actually consider you worthy of my time. Regardless, dream world. The poll is referring to the MB Nanaya, not KT. Irrelevant.
I will explain this to you one more time, Mr. broken record whose reading comprehension is distorted by the compelling need to wank Arcueid in any capacity possible.
1. The Shiki that lost to her father was NOT using Self Hypnosis (She stated she hand't used her family's way of fighting even as late as the start of Paradox Spiral) and was her pre-coma self with none of the amps from her Origin Awakening. Even though it was already awakened, she had no actual awareness of her Origin yet. She could only benefit from it after her incident made her grasp the Death aspect of her Origin with her mind, thus allowing her to actually know and wield that portion of her Origin awakening in the form of MEoDP, which also came with the general limit-breaking stats tied to the mind. This is why she noticed that she actually improved after her coma, rather than being rusty.
2. The main principle used by the Ryougis was Self Hypnosis, which aligns them with the principle of martial arts and allows them to build an individualized self-made style that resonated with their true nature. This is the same SH used by Mages for Magecraft. The stronger the effect, the more the user brings out their nature to customize the system's execution. In other words, the individual specifics and mechanics of a Ryougi's member fighting style derived from the strength of the suggestion used and by their individual traits.
3. The SH of the Ryougis is the one developed by samurais of ancient times, who brought the concept to an absolute level, transforming both the body and the mind entirely for combat, turning into a living weapon that achieved unity of mind and body and could use a fighting style aligned with their true nature. They'd represent the peak of human skill in swordmanship most likely, with each of them having specific fighting styles based on their innate traits.
4. Ryougi's Self Hypnosis is specifically vastly beyond even that, due to her nature as an Origin awakened being and said true nature being that very Nothingness all of martial arts are based on, representing the pinnacle of swordmanship skill. This allows her to access Void's swordmanship skills (which are an extension of the One's perfection applied to sword combat) and wield it just like she could wield MEoDP (Which is an expression of the One's perfection in being able to end all things that flowed out from it) after observing Death with her brain. This allows Shiki to foresee the future and counter supernatural phenomena, similar to her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Araya explicitly stated that her stance was the strongest and most fundamental, symbolizing Ryougi’s connection to the essence of all martial arts. Through this, she achieves the state of Nothingness and a perfect unity of body and mind, becoming one with her sword and attaining complete mental clarity.
5. Servants "transcending humanity" is meaningless because Fate is filled with hyperboles and anti-feats. This is blatantly not true for all Servants. Heck, iirc this was said in regards to Mordred, who is below Artoria, who got dropped by Kuzuki. Soujuurou and Kiri have significantly better skill feats than most Servants we have seen in FSN and F/Z. Not to mention, even Assassin's Tsubame Gaeshi was hyped for being able to perform something beyond human capabilities. Which make the claim that every Servant is generally beyond humanity in skill suspect. The Nanayas can already manipulate space to attack from multiple angles at the same time with their techniques, similarly to Assassin. Of course, there are some Servants that actually transcends human skill, but those are the same Servants whose skill does indeed culminate into special techniques that even other Servants struggle with. In this context, the ancient Samurai with Self Hypnosis would very well be comparable to the higher tier Servants (Excluding physical stats differences). But Ryougi goes FAR beyond even them, and access Nothingness itself, the source of all martial arts and existence. This aligns Shiki's skill with fundamental truths, allowing her to see into the future and "unify" her opponent's existence with the purity and simplicity of martial arts. Exposing the truth that all things are extensions of the One, she can damage their true essence regardless of whatever their nature would be, carrying metaphysical properties just as effective as MEoDP against non-physical entities. Last time I checked, Musashi found the Nothingness state the peak of skill. And she was already equal to Assassin, one of the most skilled Servants. So Shiki's default state is literally what Servants consider the peak of swordmanship. Even Stay Night stated the core principle of all martial arts is Nothingness itself. You know it's bad when Fate itself wanks Nothingness as the ultimate swordmanship state....Which is consistent with Fate also finding Origin Awakening to be extreme power ups that no normal Servant is allowed to wield. Literally Fate itself is telling you that Servants are below Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, yet you go against it. You good bro?
Ryougi even outmatched Souren, who is above every modern fighter in hand to hand combat:
So even Araya would "transcends humanity" by your metric, yet Ryougi is above even him. This statement would also include Soujuurou Shizuki (Especially since the narration was including Touko's perspective in that statement, who has seen Shizuki in action against Beowulf), who has better skill showings than most Servants.
I have completely explained all of this to you already. You just ignored it for the billionth time. And now I explained it YET again. Concession accepted.
Ryougi in a container called Monster. Summoned by a vague wish granting device. CCC literally seal the nail on the coffin for Servants, as it shows that fraction of Ryougi's essence obliterates them passively. Talk about a L.
Except she was specifically summoned by Taiga for the Grail War. This is basic knowledge. And even the Moon Cell itself puts shit it summons into a container of some sorts, nevermind whatever vague device she used. Normal Ryougi has feats that obliterates Servants both in KnK and MB. What Touko said is far too vague and changes nothing. At most, that could very well be the reason the device summoned her for Taiga. The device could have picked up on her need to find this supposed friend and gave the opportunity for her to do that while participating in the HGW for Taiga. It changes nothing. Lowkey was just nonsensical fanservice, not even like Arcueid, who got actual lore. Meanwhile the actual lore of CCC that was crucial for the story had Servants finding a single phenomena sourced from Ryougi's soul the end-all-be-all, lmao.
You also just admitted she has a container, lol. And the reason hers is not usual is because she isn't a proper Servant, but she is still a summoned entity. The Moon Cell literally summoned a piece of SE.RA.PH's physical manifestation to punish Hakuno. It was technically its Type, but a massively restricted version that just had high stats. You think an unknown wish device made by Taiga of all people would do any better in summoning something?
Actually, let me just completely kill your cope right now:
-The Moon Cell stops those who are too powerful to make the Holy Grail War fair from entering it by sealing them in the Far Side:
Now, at the end, Gilgamesh seems to say that the Moon Cell could not seal him, but he decided to go to the Far Side anyways:
He admits this is a lie later though and was sealed in the Far Side against his will:
Now, Gilgamesh at this point has become so powerful that he could break the law preventing him from escaping the Far Side, but even if he did, the Near Side's laws would nerf him instantly the moment he goes there:
One of these "various restrictions" is losing 90% of his treasury:
So Ryougi, by default, the moment she entered the Near Side, would've been nerfed too. We also don't know how much Extra Ryougi's eyes have evolved either, so she may not be at the stage where she can kill abstract laws, meaning she can't undo her nerf.
You lose.
Ignored my entire explanation on Shiki's skill. Concession accepted.
While not using Self Hypnosis to begin with and being much weaker than her post-coma self. Yes.
Schizo statement. Anyways, I already posted Ryougi killing abstract concepts and observing the floor-plan of reality. With the narration specifically stating that only Akasha itself cannot be killed by Shiki. Everything else she has no limit as to what she can kill. Because everything is contingent on the Root in the end, no matter what. Keep crying "muh human limits", the actual story has Ryougi killing abstract concepts and all things with no exceptions according to the omniscient avatar of the god of the verse.
This is simply what Tohno is feeling as he is watching those movements. Does not change the fact Lio solos the Nanayas outside of Shiki himself. He naturally embodies this same fighting style you are wanking, and then surpassed it entirely by going past "the line of an actual animal".
Anyways, done yet? Or do you want to keep embarassing yourself over and over? Honestly, you are starting to bore me now. At first you were somewhat entertaining to debate, but now you have devolved into a slightly less unhinges version of Neco. You are all just the same in the end, lol.
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I have a question. I saw this claim in a thread, and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on whether or not it's true. The thread is closed, so I'm asking the question here.
Claim: Void states that the combined forces of her and Chaldea would stand no chance against a monster of Gaia, such as Primate Murder.
Is this line true?
I'm just asking for the sake of curiosity, and if you can give me a reason as to why this is incorrect, I'd really appreciate it.
Claim: Void states that the combined forces of her and Chaldea would stand no chance against a monster of Gaia, such as Primate Murder.
Is this line true?
I'm just asking for the sake of curiosity, and if you can give me a reason as to why this is incorrect, I'd really appreciate it.
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She supposedly said that they could not defeat Primate Murder, but Void in Grand Order is significantly limited by her Servant container. This limitation is evident when comparing her agility and Mystic Eyes of Death Perception rank to that of normal Shiki. Despite being a more powerful entity, Void has lower parameters, which doesn't logically follow. The only explanation given for her Death Perception being inferior-ranked is that "she doesn't need them," indicating that the Servant container imposes arbitrary restrictions. These constraints do not accurately reflect Void's true capabilities. Even Archetype Earth said that being a Servant limited her power.
Here is Base Ryougi preparing to face off against Archetype Earth.
And here is the official guidebook confirming that she won the fight and killed her.
Here is Aoko, who is using a singular aspect of Void's power, folding the Red Shadow and the entirety of Gaia.
So clearly, Primate Murder is not really doing anything to Void. Heck, he wouldn't even beat normal Ryougi, given she killed Archetype, who is above Type-Moon, whom PM only surpasses "in a way" when fighting together with Altrouge, who is already relative to TM.
Edit: I'd also like to post Araya planning to return all things to Nothingness and bring about a perfect realm of Death, something that he planned to do by using Void's power:
Notice how Araya considers the Counter Force irrelevant if he manages to finally obtain Shiki's body and use its power in the last quote. There are other examples, like MEoDP being able to kill all things without exceptions by looking at the floor plan or reality:
And we see this in action when Ryougi destroyed Araya's infinite dimension:
The "Non existent" limit mentioned by the novel refers to the abstract law of said reality that doesn't physically exist in space, but it just "Is" as with the law of gravity for example: Infinity has no physical limit, but it still has an overall limit of having its existence sourced from something else. It cannot exist on its own, but rather It is an extension of the finite numbers, which are in turn sourced from the abstract laws that flowed from the One and merged to generate space (Real numbers). In the same way a table is made up of particles and how particles are made up of sub-atomic particles and how sub-atomic particles are fundamentally dependent on the concepts that flowed out from the One too. So even the infinity of space-time has limits in a sense, just not physical limits. Only the One is flawless, as it is a self sustaining perfect existence with no limitation of any kind.
Everything that diversifies and flows from The One is contingent upon it for its existence, meaning nothing is truly immutable that flows from it. No matter how complex or diversified something is, it still has a slender thread that connects it to the One source, which is the necessary cause for that something to exist. Nothing can be a perfect, self-sustaining existence outside of the One, which is the First Cause of everything that exists. Therefore, everything has "flaws" that trace back to the One source, permitting its existence:
And MEoDP is merely one of Void's vast powers:
She even said that while Ryougi with MEoDP looks at a glimpse of the Spiral of Origin's floor-plan for reality, Void stated that she can go even further than her (in terms of manipulating aspects of the Swirl of the Root), to the extent you may as well consider her to be the Swirl itself:
There is more, but I think you can agree with me that her superiority over Gaia and PM is very explicit.
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it’s true.
The Shiki in the event is the Shiki after the events of Kara no Kyoukai. But even if the characters of Kara no Kyoukai show up in the world of FGO, the whole city would’ve already been in ruins. But Shiki is special – she’s dead, but not quite. Her body had burned, but it’s yet to completely burn up. She’s there, just right before dying, asleep. The Ogawa Apartments that we see is the dream that Shiki is seeing. During the event, Shiki would say things like, “This is an awful nightmare,” or “I can’t wake up, so come with me,” and if she does wake up, she, like everyone else, would die out along with the time period she’s in. But if she doesn’t wake up, she’ll avoid the destruction of humanity as long as she’s in that dream, and she’ll be able to return to her original world. If she’s in that situation, Shiki Ryougi can show up in the scenario. The collab is between FGO and a previous TYPE-MOON work, so I wrote it so that it’s still FGO without ruining the core of the Kara no Kyoukai series.
the argument that says she in a servant container fail to recognize that in order for that to be true, she would have to die in the first place, to someone weaker than primate murder.
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Also please, do not listen to the user above^. He is notoriously dishonest and is known for being obsessed with placing Arcueid as the strongest character no matter the cost. Ryougi is explicitly a Servant in GO:
Ryougi did not fully die, yes. But she was in a suspended state dreaming the events in the game. However, her dream self actively participating was in a Servant container obviously. Hence she is...You know....An Assassin. In fact, remember how I pointed out that Void is misteriously slower and less adept at using MEoDP than her weaker personality as a Saber Servant.
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So, to summarise, you're saying that void shiki in FGO is weaker because it's restricted. Okay, that clears up my question, thanks for answering.
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Precisely. Void as her unrestricted self, and even normal Ryougi, are consistently depicted as being top tiers in the verse. Fate/Extra CCC even has Servants passively breaking down from trying to wield the power of an Origin/Black box, while Ryougi's body is stated to be full of those black boxes/abstract phenomena that act as individuals Origins. This is because Shiki's own Origin is shaped after Akasha itself, hence her essence is the source of all other Origins, which fits with her conception as an empty vessel designed for "maximum uses" by the Ryougis. They basically wanted a physical manifestation of Akasha that was near omnipotent and had access to all possible abilities.
Also, edited my first reply for additional evidence if you are interested.
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Once again, I called "mistranslation". Whining about it isn't going to do anything, either prove the translation I provided was wrong, or explain to me why the one I provided supports your argument.
You try to correct the official translation of MBAA with a fan-translation in, quiteliterally, the next thing you say on your post.
Ah, yes. The Origin of Shirou Emiya is "Hero", truly. This does not break lore at all and make FSN outright impossible to happen, same thing with Extra. Wonderful interpretation on your end.
Once again, I called mistranslation. Either debunk it, or try something else. The one I provided is ambiguous, saying that the outcome of the fight is the "murder of a god", inwhich both fighters can be referred to as a "god" in some way, shape, or form.
Oh, believe me, the steam version is more accurate. Here's the raws for you, with the steam version being confirmed for accuracy by a native-japanese friend of mine, and two (2) N1 JP Translators, including the people behind several fan-translations for Type-Moon projects.
Have fun!
Because she cannot instill death in beings that do not have them. We have a statement saying that what Ryougi did to Araya was simply adapt to and decipher "higher tier lines" on him, which she could not do before. You are hinging on fanfiction.
Because he outright has a completely separate ability, unrelated to MEODP, that changes the foundation of reality from "life" to "death". You whine about Remake so much despite not having read the thing, apparently.
So, to to clear here - you are saying that Araya, who you are saying is above "any 'mere' TYPE", believes that he would get immediately destroyed if a Demon came out of Touko's suitcase?
Damn, either TYPE's are INCREDIBLY weak in Old canon, or Araya isn't that strong. It's the latter.
Arcueid very explicitly "cannot die". You have to destroy her physically, without MEODP. If what you're saying was true, Shiki would have outright killed her in the route.
She did not 'think' away an abstract concept. She was already inside of it, and therefore cut her way out of it. If what you were saying was true, she would not have needed an entirely third party ability helping her so that she could kill Time.
In the original? Sure, why not, you can say this.
You are relying on a mistranslation. Either debunk it or concede.
You... posted a screenshot... that has what I am talking about in it. Quote: "Either way, the Dream is over".
"critical thinking" and you're referring to a statement that says "that's not how the eyes work - she cannot kill a god."
That "regular psychic" you are talking about is a branch family member, ofwhich RDG said "regular psychics" should be able to easily kill a DEMON, not just a human, given they have the right opportunity. Right now you are claiming the DHO conflict consisted of a demon sitting there and allowing a psychic to kill them one by one for months on end. Per Demon. This is not what happens in the conflict. They are Branch Family Members, they are weaker than the rest.
Saying that Ryougi will "leave TOGETHER" with her eyes", is not saying "she is going to kill her". Literally the opposite. He would activate MEODP to scare her, as one would do in that situation. Both fighters do not know anything about the other.
The quote that YOU provided outright says "This wasn't beyond the level of bracing oneself before a match."
It allows her to kill easier, yes, but it is something that any Samurai has. This does not make her automatically more skilled or better than people whose skills propped them above humanity.
The same fight where he was getting thrown like a ragdoll for most of the fight, and his impulses ultimately ended up being useless. Yes.
Because Nero toyed around with him, "playing with his food". This is explicit, Arcueid even comments on this. Next.
Which Nero could have done, but didn't. Nanaya or his impulses do not come out instantly all the time.
Do you think that Tohno knows... everything about Ryougi, when the ONLY thing they know about the other is "this person has MEODP"? Very interesting.
He explicitly said he was not.
Once again. Ciel is not "Arcueid Tier" by any means if you're saying that his "fodder beasts" lost to her extreme-diff lol.
No. Nero said that he acknowledges Shiki as a threat, then sent those things at him. He did not "skip" anything. Nothing implies this.
Psychic Ability is said to stem from Alaya's direct interference, giving it to people individually. Next.
Dreamscape Nanaya is explicitly "fictional". Lol.
You disregarded mine lol.
Because she is not the actual goddess of the franchise.
His eyes were originally meant to be Pure Eyes, nothing more. Which is entirely different from Ryougi Shiki:
| Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary |
| Ryougi Shiki acquired this power after spending two years in a comatose state and contacted “ ” (kara) for a prolonged period of time. Shiki’s body already had the ability to perceive the Lines of Death, the accident merely awakened this power. Of course, Eyes of Direct Death is only one aspect of the powers of this body called “Ryougi Shiki.” |
The "proper context of the fight" is narration outright saying that if Kouma was hit any harder, he would have died, with Kiri being weakened. Incredible cope.
The text outright calls the Kouma he fought as the "hollow shell" of the original. Let's say that he heavily weakened over the first flew blows - the first few blows, would've been the ACTUAL THING. Tohno, who adapted to Nanaya's moves, would easily dodge it if Modern Kouma was that strong and not weakened.
Damn, I had no idea a story released in 2001 is Remake Lore. My bad, that's on me.
| Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period: Tsukihime Dictionary Revised |
| The state when Shiki’s conscious mind goes blank due to the inversion impulse. Or, a possible future version of Tohno Shiki. If there’s ever a Tsukihime 2, he’ll be a main character. Perhaps because the mystic eye killers alone have become unable to suppress his death perception, he’ll always have both eyes covered by bandages. Though the Nanaya Shiki that appears in Melty Blood is close to this, properly speaking “Shiki the Killer” is something that should stem from “Tohno Shiki.” |
That is not what that means.
Except he says they're the same existence. A "phenomena that takes a single name". No, no he is not the Origin Personality, nothing implies that.
That influence only is in regards to when Wallachia took the form himself. That version is outright said to be based on the one in KT. Nanaya in Ciel's route says that he WANTS to watch Tohno's dreams, and for him to grow old. This contradicts Dreamscape and MB. Next.
Nanaya was not 'born broken'. Tohno is. That is how their dynamic works.
Unique to her Origin. Thanks.
She does not know about his past. We have explicit statements saying that they are solely meant to be Pure Eyes and nothing else. Stop writing fanfiction.
The statement itself says "this is NOT Nanaya Shiki, but Tohno Shiki". Crazy.
You disregarded mine, lol
Yes. Thank you. You understood basic implications of the work.
Yes. And the independant narration split off of Kiri's thoughts, and went "HOWEVER-- There is a Horizon that one can reach".
Tohno outright says that the copy he fought was weaker than the real thing.
That is explicitly how it works. Their abilities stem from skill, not raw power.
He has MEODP because he was born with Pure Eyes, and was "submerged in death", allowing him to comprehend the concept ontop of his ability to "see what cannot be seen". I have already explained this.
"Far above an Archetype", yet he notes that a Demon would instantly kill him and his "infinite bounded fields". Very interesting! So either the title given to the "most powerful being on the planet" is a lie, or Araya isn't that strong. It's the latter.
She's guessing. This is outright said in the JP.
"Most" can mean as little as 51%. Absolutely no help to you that further context from other works implies that "human wishes" is literally her saying that she's outright worse than the Holy Grail fought over in a HGW.
Araya's goal was to reach The One. Okay. Cool. His plan is not made pointless if Void Shiki is fodder. That is not how that works. He wanted to reach The Root. That is the goal every Magi has. That is not special. Lol.
I personally do not think he and Takeuchi joking around should be taken seriously. Some of the things you've said outright do not make sense, like Nasu saying that you should... talk to the writer of FZ... about FZ...
Talking about me blindly citing Nasu while you don't think about what he says is interesting, to say the least.
No, no that is not. Being a "natural killer" is not an Origin Awakening. Nor was he at his "absolute weakest". He explicitly outclassed a weakened Kiri. And was said to outright lose to a Kiri that was not weakened.
An outright statement in the work saying that his moves were the same as one of the GREATEST NANAYA IN HISTORY is a "strawman"?
It says that Psychic Ability is an outside ability, not linked to nature and the concept of yin and yang. Then it says it is an extreme ability developed by "the human race, who became detached from nature". Which is the entire plot of Notes, for example.
They are not beyond human limits. Especially when it is outright said that Nanaya Arts were the thing that brought the clan to the top, not their ability. Take Kiri having a shitty Psychic Ability.
She said "more practical". Both characters, in the very thing you are citing, said that it felt as if Arcueid's power was limitless to them, inwhich Arcueid goes "oh yeah you two would think that, huh. This isn't that much to me though."
I don't need to bring up Rani or the others. Nameless' existence is proof enough. Either you're telling me that Shirou's Origin is "hero" (which it isn't), or MMC isn't an Origin Awakening. Pick one.
Inwhich MB Nanaya is based off of KT Nanaya. The "context" you're speaking of is him calling his abilities useless beacuse they're bad.
Except the ability is said to be the equivalent of "bracing the mind". It's a mind ability. The quotes you cited even said, that was all it amounted to: training of the mind. It does not bring out the "personality of the body". That is an entirely different thing.
It's a Samurai Technique. What you're telling me is that every Samurai can just awaken or bring out their Origin on a whim, which they cannot do.
It's outright said that the "only" reason she's in there in the first place is to find a friend of hers.
Your "feats" exclusively rely on banking off of Tsukihime Characters and nothing else. Even if you want to say she is "nerfed" by the container, her attacks are blocked by Rho Aias, inwhich MEODP is not effected by the nerfing of a container. Normal Ryougi is not obliterating a Servant.
Your explanation on Shiki's skill does not say what you think it says.
That is how the ability works. You are perceiving death as a "shape". It's an inherit human thing. The actual story has Ryougi relying on an entirely separate ability to kill abstract concepts, and another one where she needed to already be INSIDE of a concept to kill it.
Yes, that is what Tohno is feeling watching this. That is what the technique is supposed to do.
No, Lio does not solo the Nanaya outside of himself. Kiri, for example, washes him. Him going past "the line of an actual animal" is irrelevant.
I have absolutely no idea who that is. But yes, this is boring me as well, because I never thought I would have to say "Shirou Emiya's Origin is not 'Hero'" over and over again to someone.
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It's explicitly said they are not nerfed.
Ubdon
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Nasu discussion actually mention scaling more than a few times a month? Well, that's surprising. If only that kind of energy went into filling missing profiles and updating things like Nep, instead of talking about Shiki yet again, only for it to end on another cliffhanger, leading to yet another discussion about Shiki and her funny void.
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I personally don't really care about this sort of thing, I just saw outrageous things such as "Tohno Shiki and Kishima Kouma have their Origins Awakened" and "Shirou Emiya's Origin is 'sword'" and "Araya/Ryougi are the strongest things in the verse" and was baffled beyond belief.
Oh, add "Nasu did not write Tsukihime" to that list too.
Ubdon
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Then maybe vsbw isn't the place for you? No offence though, just saying that this site is mostly for things that you have no interest in.
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My fault OG that's a typo my badbro.
Meant to say "hero" as that's what Crim is claiming.
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This is pointless. These people are brick walls when it comes to logical reasoning. Their main tactics are:
-Misintepreting a very basic concept that you could teach a 2 years old kid about, and trying to wear you out by making you reinstate the obvious 20000 times
-Subtly shifting the subject over irrelevant details
-Claim they have the true translation of things whose source is "trust me bro"
-Use parody works and pretend they actually hold any weight when it comes to official material.
-Making up baseless claims and act as if they are actually part of the franchise in their twisted minds.
-Deny entire essays of explicit explanations by saying "no it's not true" in a manner reminiscient of Luke Skywalker after Vader revealed he was his father.
-Jack off to Arcueid in every conceivable circumstance. Perhaps that being the reason they slowly decline in cognitive functioning overtime in a discussion.
For anyone reading, here is me disproving their total nonsense on this thread.
Here is a thread explaining the canon splits of TM.
Here is a thread explaining why Nasu is a completely unreliable source of information, and compiles all the evidence of him not knowing what he is talking about and admitting to be a compulsive liar.
Here is a thread explaining why Void Shiki is the strongest TM character.
Here is a thread explaining why Araya Souren is the second strongest TM character.
Here is a thread explaining why Ryougi's swordmanship skill are the absolute peak of the franchise.
Finally, here is a thread explaining why Tohno is significantly inferior to Ryougi at their respective peaks, both in combat ability and as MEoDP users.
Now that we have set these objective facts in stone, I will simply reply to his new points that haven't been already completely obliterated by me, either here or in those threads, and aren't the result of him repeating himself or twisting context to suit his agenda(Which I suspect will be very few).
First off, the Archetype cope. Let's cut the bullshit:
This is what the guidebook officially says. Anyone should be able to gather from the context of the statement that this is referring to Ryougi killing Archetype Earth. In the game, the narrative sets up the fight as a close clash, with both Archetype Earth and Ryougi confident in their abilities to kill each other. Void, who is omniscient, specifically urged Ryougi to kill Archetype Earth, highlighting Ryougi’s strength. Otherwise, Void wouldn’t have bothered to send her. Archetype Earth acknowledges that Ryougi has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which is supported by multiple narrative statements in KnK and Ryougi’s own confidence. She asserts that no matter how old or advanced something is, as long as it is alive, she can kill even a god. This ties into numerous examples in KnK where the MEoDP are described as capable of ending anything connected to the Root, no matter what. The line in question clearly indicates that Ryougi’s assertion of being a god-killer is proven by her slaying Archetype Earth.
Therefore, Base Ryougi > Archetype Earth. This is what the story is explicitly stating. The translation posted by the other party is no ******* different from the official version, which says that the murder of a god is the fate awaiting Ryougi. Both translations clearly indicate that Ryougi was destined to kill Archetype Earth (a god) after her game ending. My opponent is stretching the interpretation to suggest an uncertain outcome, but the context makes the meaning evident to anyone who can objectively and rationally assess the information. The concept of "fate" refers to a predetermined outcome or event that is bound to happen, with no room for alternative possibilities. When the phrase says "A further fate awaits Ryougi now: The murder of a god," it implies that Ryougi is destined to kill a god. The use of "fate" means this outcome is inevitable and preordained, leaving no room for ambiguity or the possibility of her losing the battle.
In other words, since fate dictates that Ryougi will "murder a god," the phrase indicates that she is bound to succeed in this task, not that the battle could end in any other way. They are trying so hard on this because they know they have nothing otherwise.
EDIT: LMAO. Look and behold, the so called mistranslation guys!
No matter what instrument I use, they all very explicitly states that Ryougi killed Archetype Earth. And EVEN your unknown "better" translation says the exact same thing in the end. It's just your brain has warped across infinite dimensions, so you are unable to accept that, or rather, you REFUSE to do so.
Cold, hard, fact: Ryougi in her base form > An enraged Archetype Earth who got triggered by her inability to protect her boyfriend and tried to talk shit, only for her to job, as usual with Arcueid.
This is genuinely sad and pathetic. I already explained that Nameless Hero in Extra ISN'T the Shirou from FSN. Don't believe me?
He is NOT the same person as FSN Archer. He is just a similar entity. Hence his Origin is different, because Shirou and Nameless are NOT the same person. Do you understand? Or do I need to bring you back to elementary school?
And, since nameless said that his Origin was the collective remnants of ideals of nameless heroes, it makes perfect sense FSN Shirou's Origin would be included among those.
Bro, the community edition's translation was literally done to correct the Steam translation. And it is generally considered to be superior and more accurate to the lore.
I'm whining about the Remake, because YOU are constantly bringing it up in an original Tsukihime discussion. Get real dude.
First, Araya said the demon could defeat him. He never said it WOULD defeat him, let alone "immediately". That's just one of your many fanfictions.
Secondly, I very, very, very clearly explained this in my previous post already, which you conveniently ignored:
"Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks."
So no. Neither the Demon, nor Araya by the time of KnK would be able to beat Archetype. While Araya is physically far superior to the point he can blitz her, he has no way to deal with her reality altering powers. Hence he'd still lose in an all-out fight.
Araya in his prime with fully mastered Stillness though? Again, he'd 100% blink Archetype.
So, please, next time you should stop lying and try reading. Not hard to do.
LMAO. No way you are for real. You cannot be "inside" a concept. What in the actual ****? These concepts occupy 0 space to begin with. There is nothing to physically go to. You are literally saying the equivalent of "Ryougi was inside the inverse square law". How the **** does that work? Abstract concepts are the source of space-time and what space-time relies on to even exist, acting as the rules governing creation. And, likewise, Araya's infinite reality had its own abstract rules permitting its existence and defining its operational boundaries. Those are what Shiki destroyed. But you can only mentally access these concepts and rules. Meaning that the only way for her to do this was by thinking them out of existence, which is backed up by Touko saying that MEoDP can kill even abstract, formless and intangible concepts.
Again, Read. What. I. Say:
"The space Ryougi was in was infinite. Meaning it had no actual phyical limit you could locate in space. As said space is boundless. However, it had an overall limit in the form of the abstract boundaries that governed it and defined the dimension. To even have the infinity of space, you need to have rules that allows for space to even exist in the first place: The abstract, the limit of physical infinity. But abstract things occupy 0 space and can only be mentally accessed. Since Ryougi destroyed those abstract concepts, she is capable of using a variation of MEoDP to erase things with her thoughts as opposed to physically slicing lines. The Novel even said she "cut" (Metaphorically, she didn't even have her knife) the non-existent limit of the dimension. As the abstract does not technically exist in space. This means Ryougi in that scene started tapping into a non-local version of MEoDP that requires more effort and focus than her default mode, and she would get more used to this new variation overtime just like MEoDP users become increasingly more used to perceive the Death of more complex things. Until Void by the time of the Epilogue states that Void can kill all things with no exceptions, meaning comprehension is not an issue for her anymore by then."
Go back to pre-school now.
If you are referring to MF, I already explained very clearly why it's not canon to the original story. Both Shiki and Mikiya are completely out of character there. Your only reply was "Muh character development", when that's straight up character assassination. I don't give a shit about this spin off story that destroyed what the original story went for.
Furthermore, you didn't understand shit even there, as expected. She couldn't kill the future because the future does not naturally exist yet. It's just random possibilities. But the bomber picked and confirmed one possibility as the true future, making it exist, allowing her to kill it. There is absolutely no anti-feat for Ryougi in MF. The reasons for me rejecting it are purely narrative based, since I actually care about the story. Just in case you go "muh you say it'sn ot canonz because it foes against powerscaling". No, it goes against the very narrative and devolves Shiki and Mikiya in parodies of their real selves due to their contradicting life decisions.
I'll just repost my very first response to this meme-tier argument, since you STILL haven't addressed it AT ALL, you outrageous buffoon who makes stuff up:
"Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards."
Wtf? Are you blatantly making up stuff now? Since ******* when does Tohno know anything about Ryougi? Stop being outrageous.
Also, huh? Wouldn't that mean he has an advantage in the fight via prior knowledge? And he still lost? Good to know!
The Kiri cope I already addressed multiple times in my previous posts. Kiri needed a once-in-a-lifetime circumstantial strike to inflict damage on the weakest version of Kishima, all while putting himself below every Origin awakened person. Keep coping.
The uncertainty is about her letting a sense of loneliness slipping out, and later to convey that she must sound ridiculous saying those things in front of Mikiya, hence she follows it up by saying her grand scale reality warping is pointless to do, because there is no real reason to do them. It's not like Void has battleboarding brainrot or anything, after all. lol.
And as large as 99%. You are arbitrarily choosing the lower spectrum. I already explained the context surrounding Void, and now linked a thread explaining everything about her. So I don't care about anything you say further on her.
You missed the part where he wanted to reach it in order to return all things to nothingness and destroy all of creation, something that he planned to do using Void's body.
I mean yes? Naturally a character's feats includes who the character in question has fought. And even in KnK, we have her blinking an infinite dimension, achieving the peak of skill in the verse with swords, and being the source of the same black boxes that passively disintegrate Servants.
That just further proves that she was nerfed actually, since Rho Aias is not tanking MEoDP even in its wildest dreams. But that's clearly nothing more than a gameplay mechanic anyway. We know that, because it deals finite damage except during her ultimate, which clearly contradicts how MEoDP works.
It does. The real line should be "Your denial on Shiki's skill does not change reality in the way you wish".
Fanfiction.
"Evidence to back up your claims is irrelevant, I only care about the way I want things to be", yep, that's definitely you.
This is just a pathetic, last effort strawman I have already dismantled.
And with this, I feel that there is no need to entertain you any further. Your fanfiction has been completely obliterated and you are resorting to massive denials and headcanons to cope with the harsh truth. You are completely incoherent and detached from reality, to the point I feel embarassed for you. But then again, there is a reason why you and your little cult are infamous for being annoying cockroaches that singlehandedly ruined the TM side of the wiki. Oh, and about your little childish jab here:
You're "collaborating" (getting your info) from a guy (Marshadow) that thinks the EARTH > the ROOT and has made insane claims like MEoDP being able to kill The Root on Comicvine. Really goes to show how far out of your depth you are if you're getting your info from him and copy and pasting a lot of his arguments.
Cya around, kid.
-Misintepreting a very basic concept that you could teach a 2 years old kid about, and trying to wear you out by making you reinstate the obvious 20000 times
-Subtly shifting the subject over irrelevant details
-Claim they have the true translation of things whose source is "trust me bro"
-Use parody works and pretend they actually hold any weight when it comes to official material.
-Making up baseless claims and act as if they are actually part of the franchise in their twisted minds.
-Deny entire essays of explicit explanations by saying "no it's not true" in a manner reminiscient of Luke Skywalker after Vader revealed he was his father.
-Jack off to Arcueid in every conceivable circumstance. Perhaps that being the reason they slowly decline in cognitive functioning overtime in a discussion.
For anyone reading, here is me disproving their total nonsense on this thread.
Here is a thread explaining the canon splits of TM.
Here is a thread explaining why Nasu is a completely unreliable source of information, and compiles all the evidence of him not knowing what he is talking about and admitting to be a compulsive liar.
Here is a thread explaining why Void Shiki is the strongest TM character.
Here is a thread explaining why Araya Souren is the second strongest TM character.
Here is a thread explaining why Ryougi's swordmanship skill are the absolute peak of the franchise.
Finally, here is a thread explaining why Tohno is significantly inferior to Ryougi at their respective peaks, both in combat ability and as MEoDP users.
Now that we have set these objective facts in stone, I will simply reply to his new points that haven't been already completely obliterated by me, either here or in those threads, and aren't the result of him repeating himself or twisting context to suit his agenda
First off, the Archetype cope. Let's cut the bullshit:
This is what the guidebook officially says. Anyone should be able to gather from the context of the statement that this is referring to Ryougi killing Archetype Earth. In the game, the narrative sets up the fight as a close clash, with both Archetype Earth and Ryougi confident in their abilities to kill each other. Void, who is omniscient, specifically urged Ryougi to kill Archetype Earth, highlighting Ryougi’s strength. Otherwise, Void wouldn’t have bothered to send her. Archetype Earth acknowledges that Ryougi has come to bestow Death on what cannot die, which is supported by multiple narrative statements in KnK and Ryougi’s own confidence. She asserts that no matter how old or advanced something is, as long as it is alive, she can kill even a god. This ties into numerous examples in KnK where the MEoDP are described as capable of ending anything connected to the Root, no matter what. The line in question clearly indicates that Ryougi’s assertion of being a god-killer is proven by her slaying Archetype Earth.
Therefore, Base Ryougi > Archetype Earth. This is what the story is explicitly stating. The translation posted by the other party is no ******* different from the official version, which says that the murder of a god is the fate awaiting Ryougi. Both translations clearly indicate that Ryougi was destined to kill Archetype Earth (a god) after her game ending. My opponent is stretching the interpretation to suggest an uncertain outcome, but the context makes the meaning evident to anyone who can objectively and rationally assess the information. The concept of "fate" refers to a predetermined outcome or event that is bound to happen, with no room for alternative possibilities. When the phrase says "A further fate awaits Ryougi now: The murder of a god," it implies that Ryougi is destined to kill a god. The use of "fate" means this outcome is inevitable and preordained, leaving no room for ambiguity or the possibility of her losing the battle.
In other words, since fate dictates that Ryougi will "murder a god," the phrase indicates that she is bound to succeed in this task, not that the battle could end in any other way. They are trying so hard on this because they know they have nothing otherwise.
EDIT: LMAO. Look and behold, the so called mistranslation guys!
No matter what instrument I use, they all very explicitly states that Ryougi killed Archetype Earth. And EVEN your unknown "better" translation says the exact same thing in the end. It's just your brain has warped across infinite dimensions, so you are unable to accept that, or rather, you REFUSE to do so.
Cold, hard, fact: Ryougi in her base form > An enraged Archetype Earth who got triggered by her inability to protect her boyfriend and tried to talk shit, only for her to job, as usual with Arcueid.
This is genuinely sad and pathetic. I already explained that Nameless Hero in Extra ISN'T the Shirou from FSN. Don't believe me?
He is NOT the same person as FSN Archer. He is just a similar entity. Hence his Origin is different, because Shirou and Nameless are NOT the same person. Do you understand? Or do I need to bring you back to elementary school?
And, since nameless said that his Origin was the collective remnants of ideals of nameless heroes, it makes perfect sense FSN Shirou's Origin would be included among those.
Bro, the community edition's translation was literally done to correct the Steam translation. And it is generally considered to be superior and more accurate to the lore.
I'm whining about the Remake, because YOU are constantly bringing it up in an original Tsukihime discussion. Get real dude.
First, Araya said the demon could defeat him. He never said it WOULD defeat him, let alone "immediately". That's just one of your many fanfictions.
Secondly, I very, very, very clearly explained this in my previous post already, which you conveniently ignored:
"Araya is far beyond a mere Ultimate One, since he is the manifestation of the boundary able to structure the boundless potential of Akasha into a definable framework, having full control over the rules of existence and balancing every contradicting duality. And while he still hasn't mastered those abilities at the time of KnK, he is still physically the strongest TM character outside SH Ryougi, who is the expression of the One in sword combat. Archetype would beat KnK Araya since his Origin powers are localized and mostly defensive, lacking the broader large scale offensive reality warping AE can employ. But Araya in the next generation after coming in direct contact with his Origin just like Ryougi and Tohno did? He blinks."
So no. Neither the Demon, nor Araya by the time of KnK would be able to beat Archetype. While Araya is physically far superior to the point he can blitz her, he has no way to deal with her reality altering powers. Hence he'd still lose in an all-out fight.
Araya in his prime with fully mastered Stillness though? Again, he'd 100% blink Archetype.
So, please, next time you should stop lying and try reading. Not hard to do.
LMAO. No way you are for real. You cannot be "inside" a concept. What in the actual ****? These concepts occupy 0 space to begin with. There is nothing to physically go to. You are literally saying the equivalent of "Ryougi was inside the inverse square law". How the **** does that work? Abstract concepts are the source of space-time and what space-time relies on to even exist, acting as the rules governing creation. And, likewise, Araya's infinite reality had its own abstract rules permitting its existence and defining its operational boundaries. Those are what Shiki destroyed. But you can only mentally access these concepts and rules. Meaning that the only way for her to do this was by thinking them out of existence, which is backed up by Touko saying that MEoDP can kill even abstract, formless and intangible concepts.
Again, Read. What. I. Say:
"The space Ryougi was in was infinite. Meaning it had no actual phyical limit you could locate in space. As said space is boundless. However, it had an overall limit in the form of the abstract boundaries that governed it and defined the dimension. To even have the infinity of space, you need to have rules that allows for space to even exist in the first place: The abstract, the limit of physical infinity. But abstract things occupy 0 space and can only be mentally accessed. Since Ryougi destroyed those abstract concepts, she is capable of using a variation of MEoDP to erase things with her thoughts as opposed to physically slicing lines. The Novel even said she "cut" (Metaphorically, she didn't even have her knife) the non-existent limit of the dimension. As the abstract does not technically exist in space. This means Ryougi in that scene started tapping into a non-local version of MEoDP that requires more effort and focus than her default mode, and she would get more used to this new variation overtime just like MEoDP users become increasingly more used to perceive the Death of more complex things. Until Void by the time of the Epilogue states that Void can kill all things with no exceptions, meaning comprehension is not an issue for her anymore by then."
Go back to pre-school now.
If you are referring to MF, I already explained very clearly why it's not canon to the original story. Both Shiki and Mikiya are completely out of character there. Your only reply was "Muh character development", when that's straight up character assassination. I don't give a shit about this spin off story that destroyed what the original story went for.
Furthermore, you didn't understand shit even there, as expected. She couldn't kill the future because the future does not naturally exist yet. It's just random possibilities. But the bomber picked and confirmed one possibility as the true future, making it exist, allowing her to kill it. There is absolutely no anti-feat for Ryougi in MF. The reasons for me rejecting it are purely narrative based, since I actually care about the story. Just in case you go "muh you say it'sn ot canonz because it foes against powerscaling". No, it goes against the very narrative and devolves Shiki and Mikiya in parodies of their real selves due to their contradicting life decisions.
I'll just repost my very first response to this meme-tier argument, since you STILL haven't addressed it AT ALL, you outrageous buffoon who makes stuff up:
"Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards."
Wtf? Are you blatantly making up stuff now? Since ******* when does Tohno know anything about Ryougi? Stop being outrageous.
Also, huh? Wouldn't that mean he has an advantage in the fight via prior knowledge? And he still lost? Good to know!
The Kiri cope I already addressed multiple times in my previous posts. Kiri needed a once-in-a-lifetime circumstantial strike to inflict damage on the weakest version of Kishima, all while putting himself below every Origin awakened person. Keep coping.
The uncertainty is about her letting a sense of loneliness slipping out, and later to convey that she must sound ridiculous saying those things in front of Mikiya, hence she follows it up by saying her grand scale reality warping is pointless to do, because there is no real reason to do them. It's not like Void has battleboarding brainrot or anything, after all. lol.
And as large as 99%. You are arbitrarily choosing the lower spectrum. I already explained the context surrounding Void, and now linked a thread explaining everything about her. So I don't care about anything you say further on her.
You missed the part where he wanted to reach it in order to return all things to nothingness and destroy all of creation, something that he planned to do using Void's body.
I mean yes? Naturally a character's feats includes who the character in question has fought. And even in KnK, we have her blinking an infinite dimension, achieving the peak of skill in the verse with swords, and being the source of the same black boxes that passively disintegrate Servants.
That just further proves that she was nerfed actually, since Rho Aias is not tanking MEoDP even in its wildest dreams. But that's clearly nothing more than a gameplay mechanic anyway. We know that, because it deals finite damage except during her ultimate, which clearly contradicts how MEoDP works.
It does. The real line should be "Your denial on Shiki's skill does not change reality in the way you wish".
Fanfiction.
"Evidence to back up your claims is irrelevant, I only care about the way I want things to be", yep, that's definitely you.
This is just a pathetic, last effort strawman I have already dismantled.
And with this, I feel that there is no need to entertain you any further. Your fanfiction has been completely obliterated and you are resorting to massive denials and headcanons to cope with the harsh truth. You are completely incoherent and detached from reality, to the point I feel embarassed for you. But then again, there is a reason why you and your little cult are infamous for being annoying cockroaches that singlehandedly ruined the TM side of the wiki. Oh, and about your little childish jab here:
You're "collaborating" (getting your info) from a guy (Marshadow) that thinks the EARTH > the ROOT and has made insane claims like MEoDP being able to kill The Root on Comicvine. Really goes to show how far out of your depth you are if you're getting your info from him and copy and pasting a lot of his arguments.
Cya around, kid.
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Once again: Mistranslation. I offered you a different translation, with the raw JP, fact-checked by several JP speakers, and you continue to rely on this, because it's the crux of your entire agenda. Considering how upset you are, I assume you've fact-checked it, realized I'm correct, and have given up. Thank you.
Both translations are different. One is saying the outcome of the fight is "the murder of a god", and the other one is saying that Ryougi outright killed her. One is ambiguous at best (which is what the cutscene is), and the other is not.
He has Unlimited Blade Works. His Origin is "Sword". Next.
In general? Sure, you can say that. If I have Native JP Speakers and multiple N1 Translators agreeing with the Steam version of those lines, then both you and I are more inclined to believe them over a fan translation.
What's more, if you actually looked at the raws, the fan translation doesn't even have the same punctuation or tone as the raw JP. This is incredible cope on your part. Try again.
When I bring up the remake, I say "If you want to include the remake", and then follow-up with what happens in the OG. You are, unfortunately, whining over nothing.
Cool, so you admit that Araya, someone "FAR above a Type", believes that a Demon that Touko locked in her briefcase could destroy him and his entire complex. He's not Type-Level.
You can be inside of a concept. Touko outright says that was what she was trapped in. MEODP can kill "space" itself, aswell as existence. This is not something special. Moving on.
"Not canon to the original story" and you're referring to something released in 2013. It's far before the "new canon" starting in 2015. Please stop coping.
Considering that Fujino's ability is directly based on 'sight', and the Nanaya Clan have an entire technique dedicated to people freaking out and not being able to see correctly, believing that an earthquake is happening: no, I do not think a Branch Family member is beating the "Absolute War Power" of an organization with several Gods in it.
Secondly, regardless of Fujino "hard-countering" her, the fact of the matter is that her physical abilities are not enough to blitz her or even attack her head-on. She's not "far beyond the Ultimate One of the Planet" like you claim her to be.
Her abilities, BARELY, manage to match the description of the "regular psychics" talked about in KnK. If you want to stretch things, that of an ordinary demon, who could outright manipulate the entirety of the environment itself. Ryougi cannot handle this, and needed the combination of an environmental advantage, and trial-and-error, to even come close to beating a branch family member. Next.
I am saying that Tohno does not know her enough to know that activating MEODP would not scare her off instantly. You, on the other hand, were claiming that WOULD work in your earlier posts. Please stick to a consistent argument, or I take it you concede on this notion.
For some reason, I doubt that, and that's because I've had people actually look at the JP involved.
| けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ 彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。 誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。 |
Cool. She specifies "human wishes", and in AATM, Ryougi outright says that she's "cute" compared to a god, while saying that Arcueid's power seems to be limitless. Nothing implies it's anywhere near 99%. You're stretching things.
Yes. And he thought wrong, given Void Shiki's uncertainty and Ryougi's denial of being powerful.
She isn't the peak of the verse with swords, and MMC is not Origins.
Remind me how being physically nerfed with the body would affect a mental ability that's explicitly about "perception"?
I do not think someone whose best skill is something any Samurai could do is beyond humanity, no.
The "evidence" you're talking about is that Ryougi fought a Nanaya who wasn't trying to harm her and won. Lio is not doing anything to Kouma, much less Prime Kiri, while the Nanaya Clan hard-counter his abilities.
I have absolutely no idea who "this little cult" is. If you want to think Shirou's Origin is "Hero", go ahead. You're wrong, but feel free. Not my fault.
I am absolutely NOT getting my information from whoever this "Marshadow" person is. Nice of you to assume, though. Your friend was both nicer and smarter than you. Put him up again, maybe that'll work.
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Normal users can't tag people, so you should just respond to their post or ask on their profile.
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I haven't been keeping up with your debate, so where was that said?
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His author status is questionable since he constantly contradicts himself even on basic lore, and he has admitted to have other people force him to add new story elements, or rewrite the entirety of the story from scratch. Either he is not the one true author, or he had some mental change that made him entirely different and forget most of the original story. Or he simply had a lot of help.
The main point though was that he is an unreliable source, with him admitting he is a compulsive liar on top of that. People should argue based on the source material above all, rather than external comments that contradicts not just the stories, but even themselves. For more information, you can consult this thread here. For the record, it's entirely fine if you think Nasu still wrote everything. But you cannot deny he had help and that he contradict himself in incredibly strange ways, on top of the complete shift in themes and narratives in newer series.
The guy simply makes absurd strawmans to avoid facing the actual arguments. Like him claiming I said that Shirou's Origin is "hero", just to make me look wrong, when I told him countless of times that Nameless it not the same person as FSN Archer, sending him both an official quote saying that, and a screenshot from the game itself saying that Archer's Origin is the remnant ideals of nameless heroes, which would likely include the Sword Origin of FSN Shirou.
Or him genuinely thinking that "The fate awaiting Ryougi was the murder of a god" is any different from "The destiny in store for her was being a god killer". All because their objective is keeping Arcueid as number 1. It's so bad that Neco/Marshadow literally and unironically said that Earth > the Root on CV..........
Hell, just look at this:
They used this to argue that Avalon can block MEoDP, which is contradicted by all lore and feats in the verse. They would use various parody meme non-canon instances to deny what is blatantly shown in the lore.
They are entirely dishonest and should just be ignored.
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the fate extra materials are clear in saying that the only difference in their existence is their true name (Nameless erased his true name)The guy simply makes absurd strawmans to avoid facing the actual arguments. Like him claiming I said that Shirou's Origin is "hero", just to make me look wrong, when I told him countless of times that Nameless it not the same person as FSN Archer, sending him both an official quote saying that, and a screenshot from the game itself saying that Archer's Origin is the remnant ideals of nameless heroes, which would likely include the Sword Origin of FSN Shirou.
Or him genuinely thinking that "The fate awaiting Ryougi was the murder of a god" is any different from "The destiny in store for her was being a god killer". All because their objective is keeping Arcueid as number 1. It's so bad that Neco/Marshadow literally and unironically said that Earth > the Root on CV..........
Hell, just look at this:
They used this to argue that Avalon can block MEoDP, which is contradicted by all lore and feats in the verse. They would use various parody meme non-canon instances to deny what is blatantly shown in the lore.
They are entirely dishonest and should just be ignored.
EMIYA has a true name recorded on the throne, so that discounts him.
but if you wanted to go this route, wouldn’t this mean that he would have access to every nameless heroes origin, which would be a near infinite/infinite amount?
also, it is not contradicted by the lore, as this is the only interaction that these two abilities have.
even then, what we know of avalon is that it is an absolute defense.
"All-Distant Utopia, [Noble Phantasm] Avalon.
Avalon. The land of eternal spring in the Arthurian legends, and the name of a fairyland.
Avalon is an ideal land associated with the island in Greek mythology where the 'immortal apples' are said to exist.
Not only does it heal the owner's wounds and halt aging, but if the true name is released, it decomposes into hundreds of parts and protects the owner from all interference.
- "所有者" (shoyuusha) - owner
- "を" (wo) - object marker
- "あらゆる" (arayuru) - all
- "干渉" (kanshou) - interference
- "から" (kara) - from
- "守りきる" (mamorikiru) - to fully protect
It is a Noble Phantasm within the realm of magic that shuts out all physical interference, transtioning from parallel worlds, and communication from multidimensional spaces (up to the sixth dimension).
If Saber were to seclude herself with this, it would be beyond anyone’s control."手におえない" (te ni oenai)"
•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Saber.”
