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It seems you're new here but we don't take what Nasu says in interviews as WoG anymore. Bro is too contradictory in his words and statements. Shiki saying she could kill a god with her eyes doesn't seem like a mere bluff to me considering how MEoDP works.
Firstly, Nasu never said Arc was stronger. I'm guessing you're using that ambiguous ranking statement that says Arc- Void Shiki-True Daemons. Not only is it outdated asf considering the fact that true Daemons are not top 3 currently, but Nasu didn't even rank the three. He simply listed the 3 strongest. And it doesn't even matter, Nasu is not a man of his words.
Void can indeed erase Arc. Literally, bro literally, Void told Mikiya that she could end the entire Nasuverse if she wanted to. That would obviously include Arc. And I don't remember Void sending Ryougi to another dimension to kill Arc. Makes no sense to me.
Except Void really doesn't care about anything. She is...Void. Nothing interests her. She said this herself. Did you even watch KnK epilogue? And she never sent anyone to another universe.
God, it's like I'm arguing with Marshadow all over again. Ryougi's eyes are from the Root itself. She literally kills futures, things beyond what Tohno can even comprehend. Tohno being more skilled than her is irrelevant. That's not my point. Ryougi doesn't need skill. She just kills everything because her eyes is directly linked to the root on a greater level compared to anyone else.
I guess this is what happens if you are stuck on reddit and refuse to understand the context of what you read.
It seems you're new here but we don't take what Nasu says in interviews as WoG anymore. Bro is too contradictory in his words and statements. Shiki saying she could kill a god with her eyes doesn't seem like a mere bluff to me considering how MEoDP works.
Understandable, though I personally don't think (too) many of his statements are contradictory. Though if we're going by that, then wouldn't contradictory statements in MBAA manuals be rendered irrelevant due to being... contradictory?
Firstly, Nasu never said Arc was stronger. I'm guessing you're using that ambiguous ranking statement that says Arc- Void Shiki-True Daemons. Not only is it outdated asf considering the fact that true Daemons are not top 3 currently, but Nasu didn't even rank the three. He simply listed the 3 strongest. And it doesn't even matter, Nasu is not a man of his words.
Void can indeed erase Arc. Literally, bro literally, Void told Mikiya that she could end the entire Nasuverse if she wanted to. That would obviously include Arc. And I don't remember Void sending Ryougi to another dimension to kill Arc. Makes no sense to me.
I can accept the first bit, though I believe wankbreaker responded to the second bit.
Except Void really doesn't care about anything. She is...Void. Nothing interests her. She said this herself. Did you even watch KnK epilogue? And she never sent anyone to another universe.
Cool. While I get it, the entire "route" your argument is based off of is one where... she DOES something, and that "something" is sending ryougi to another universe.
God, it's like I'm arguing with Marshadow all over again. Ryougi's eyes are from the Root itself. She literally kills futures, things beyond what Tohno can even comprehend. Tohno being more skilled than her is irrelevant. That's not my point. Ryougi doesn't need skill. She just kills everything because her eyes is directly linked to the root on a greater level compared to anyone else.
I have no idea who Marshadow is. Even if you want to say "she has better eyes", both Ryougi and Tohno need to actually... hit the lines of the other person. Regardless of who has better eyes, it's a matter of "who hits first", inwhich Tohno should be far more skilled.
I guess this is what happens if you are stuck on reddit and refuse to understand the context of what you read.
Kinda tough honestly. Would've said Tsukihime initially, but KNK is definitely up there. And Fate Strange Fake is rising up there too.
Would rank these 3 as highest
It seems you're new here but we don't take what Nasu says in interviews as WoG anymore. Bro is too contradictory in his words and statements. Shiki saying she could kill a god with her eyes doesn't seem like a mere bluff to me considering how MEoDP works.
Firstly, Nasu never said Arc was stronger. I'm guessing you're using that ambiguous ranking statement that says Arc- Void Shiki-True Daemons. Not only is it outdated asf considering the fact that true Daemons are not top 3 currently, but Nasu didn't even rank the three. He simply listed the 3 strongest. And it doesn't even matter, Nasu is not a man of his words.
Void can indeed erase Arc. Literally, bro literally, Void told Mikiya that she could end the entire Nasuverse if she wanted to. That would obviously include Arc. And I don't remember Void sending Ryougi to another dimension to kill Arc. Makes no sense to me.
Except Void really doesn't care about anything. She is...Void. Nothing interests her. She said this herself. Did you even watch KnK epilogue? And she never sent anyone to another universe.
God, it's like I'm arguing with Marshadow all over again. Ryougi's eyes are from the Root itself. She literally kills futures, things beyond what Tohno can even comprehend. Tohno being more skilled than her is irrelevant. That's not my point. Ryougi doesn't need skill. She just kills everything because her eyes is directly linked to the root on a greater level compared to anyone else.
I guess this is what happens if you are stuck on reddit and refuse to understand the context of what you read.
Because it goes against your void agenda? can you cite 5 good examples of this? I’m not sure why nasu is being treated differently than the status quo of keep it if it checks out, throw it out if it’s contradicted.
except he did. the translator removed the numbering.
Kinda tough honestly. Would've said Tsukihime initially, but KNK is definitely up there. And Fate Strange Fake is rising up there too.
Would rank these 3 as highest
KNK is one of the first anime i watched, i love the urban mystery setting. that’s why I hate when people try to make it a powerscaling work, it is very clearly not.
regardless, I don’t think anyone asked, but my top 3 works are
Ok let's ignore the lighting then. Dead Apostles are explicitly stated to be able to react to bullets after they've been fired. Kiri can't. Moving on
Not reading allat lmao. Not my name either
Pre Tsukihime Kouma isn't even on the level of his Melty Blood self. He explicitly didn't even know martial arts back then, while in Melty Blood he does, which just tells us he trained some time after fighting Kiri. Also, as I'm sure you know, Shiki's stats heavily fluctuate depending on his mentality, as we see in both Tsukihime and Melty Blood many times.
Pre Tsukihime Kouma isn't even on the level of his Melty Blood self. He explicitly didn't even know martial arts back then, while in Melty Blood he does, which just tells us he trained some time after fighting Kiri. Also, as I'm sure you know, Shiki's stats heavily fluctuate depending on his mentality, as we see in both Tsukihime and Melty Blood many times.
a weakened TATARI Manifestation, a carbon-copy of the one Tohno fought, stalemated or fought a very good battle against this "stronger kouma". In KT, Tohno adapts to the fully-healed/normal guy, and is BARELY able to dodge the pre-Tsukihime one.
Post-RDG Kouma, depending on interpretation, you can infer as to being weaker than his RDG self. While it sounds contradictory, Post-Tsukihime Kouma would have "gained emotions", and therefore be given the same nerfs that Kiri had when he lost to Kouma.
Regardless, you can see how Melty Blood contradicts things?
Because it goes against your void agenda? can you cite 5 good examples of this? I’m not sure why nasu is being treated differently than the status quo of keep it if it checks out, throw it out if it’s contradicted.
except he did. the translator removed the numbering.
If you guys really wanna remove Void as the strongest in the verse, then uhhh yeah I'm just gonna say that's a fruitless effort. And Void was already ranked as strongest here long before Nasu's WoG was considered invalid. If you really want to, you're free to make a CRT to argue it, but I'll just say you ain't gonna wanna test that.
True Daemons are definitely in the higher end of Type Moon, though going by how Type Moon is currently scaled on this site, they're not in the top 3, no. Not that I necessarily agree with some of the scaling here. Different discussion though...
a weakened TATARI Manifestation, a carbon-copy of the one Tohno fought, stalemated or fought a very good battle against this "stronger kouma". In KT, Tohno adapts to the fully-healed/normal guy, and is BARELY able to dodge the pre-Tsukihime one.
Post-RDG Kouma, depending on interpretation, you can infer as to being weaker than his RDG self. While it sounds contradictory, Post-Tsukihime Kouma would have "gained emotions", and therefore be given the same nerfs that Kiri had when he lost to Kouma.
If you're referring to Melty Blood for the first one (wording kinda confusing), the Nanaya that Kouma fought was weakened, as we see in both ladders. White Len died in both Kouma and Nanaya's ladders, and she feeds his existence. In Nanaya's own, he was also injured from other fights. In Act Cadenza, he beats the Tatari of Kouma pretty easily without these handicaps.
I mean again, I ask what evidence we have for Tohno even being at his peak during that against Kouma in the dream. Guy can go from struggling to fodder enemies (like Dead Apostle Satsuki) to outright stomping, since his stats fluctuate a lot. He can even body full power Akiha, who's stated to be equal to Red Arcueid.
Also I don't see why post RDG Kouma would be weaker than his RDG self. Mind elaborating on that? Kiri probably was since he was older and iirc was kinda out of shape, but he'd still have no real evidence for scaling to a post RDG Kouma
Anyways I'm gonna head to bed now. Will check further replies some time later (which could mean a few days or so since I'm still revising a different verse and I only just happened to glance in here because I was notified of the ongoing argument)
If you guys really wanna remove Void as the strongest in the verse, then uhhh yeah I'm just gonna say that's a fruitless effort. And Void was already ranked as strongest here long before Nasu's WoG was considered invalid. If you really want to, you're free to make a CRT to argue it, but I'll just say you ain't gonna wanna test that.
True Daemons are definitely in the higher end of Type Moon, though going by how Type Moon is currently scaled on this site, they're not in the top 3, no. Not that I necessarily agree with some of the scaling here. Different discussion though...
If you're referring to Melty Blood for the first one (wording kinda confusing), the Nanaya that Kouma fought was weakened, as we see in both ladders. White Len died in both Kouma and Nanaya's ladders, and she feeds his existence. In Nanaya's own, he was also injured from other fights. In Act Cadenza, he beats the Tatari of Kouma pretty easily without these handicaps.
I mean again, I ask what evidence we have for Tohno even being at his peak during that against Kouma in the dream. Guy can go from struggling to fodder enemies (like Dead Apostle Satsuki) to outright stomping, since his stats fluctuate a lot. He can even body full power Akiha, who's stated to be equal to Red Arcueid.
Also I don't see why post RDG Kouma would be weaker than his RDG self. Mind elaborating on that? Kiri probably was since he was older and iirc was kinda out of shape, but he'd still have no real evidence for scaling to a post RDG Kouma
If you're referring to Melty Blood for the first one (wording kinda confusing), the Nanaya that Kouma fought was weakened, as we see in both ladders. White Len died in both Kouma and Nanaya's ladders, and she feeds his existence. In Nanaya's own, he was also injured from other fights. In Act Cadenza, he beats the Tatari of Kouma pretty easily without these handicaps.
You said what I had said. Yeah, a HEAVILY nerfed TATARI Nanaya either stalemates or has a VERY good fight with Kouma, almost mortally wounding him.
The issue comes because that same TATARI Nanaya is outright stated to be based on/the same as the one we see in KT; Dreamscape Nanaya
Yet, again, Tohno adapted to and fought the fully-healed thing, and yet was still STRUGGLING against RDG/Younger Kouma. Hence why I say it's more than likely than "gaining emotions" heavily weakened him, just like it did for Kiri. Otherwise we get into "the Melty Blood sequels are not credible" terriitory, which ruins your side's "Ryougi > AE" scaling entirely without any argument.
Also I don't see why post RDG Kouma would be weaker than his RDG self. Mind elaborating on that? Kiri probably was since he was older and iirc was kinda out of shape, but he'd still have no real evidence for scaling to a post RDG Kouma
If you guys really wanna remove Void as the strongest in the verse, then uhhh yeah I'm just gonna say that's a fruitless effort. And Void was already ranked as strongest here long before Nasu's WoG was consideredinvalid. If you really want to, you're free to make a CRT to argue it, but I'll just say you ain't gonna wanna test that.
everyday, type moon releases more works that kinda make it clear that “we never intended for her to be that, what the hell are you talking about lmao.”
example being that paragraph I sent from adventures volume 8. this paragraph is self tled, as no fan translator has touched the series past volume 2 iirc.
however, I’ll include the raws for anyone to review if they believe my translation is wrong.
Anyways I'm gonna head to bed now. Will check further replies some time later (which could mean a few days or so since I'm still revising a different verse and I only just happened to glance in here because I was notified of the ongoing argument)
Also, if you go to 1:00:50, they show off costumes for Ciel (they take off her dress-thing in her First Ascension to show off her swimsuit and take off her glasses in her Second Ascension).
Also, if you go to 1:00:50, they show off costumes for Ciel (they take off her dress-thing in her First Ascension to show off her swimsuit and take off her glasses in her Second Ascension).
Here are the second round of Servants: Summer Tlaloc/Tenochtitlan, MHXX (Summer MHXA), and BB-Dubai.
I have a strong hunch that BB Dubai is Kazuradrop in disguise thanks to that big, yellow ribbon and "BB Lily" showing up with a name tag that says "Kazura."
We also got information on Ordeal Call III. Summer 9 is not Ordeal Call III, but it does lead directly into it. (Also, what was Ordeal Call III will now be Ordeal Call IV).
The TV commercials show that Ordeal Call III will involve BB, the Hakuno's, Arcueid, and many other characters.
by the way, arcueid is never referred to a god, like ever. however ,ryougi is offhandedly called that once or twice in other works, like all around type-moon. (she denies the notion that she’s a god,though.)
"Her fate was to become a God-Killer" and "A further-fate awaits her: The murder of a god" are two entirely different things. One is outright saying "She kills Archetype Earth", while the other says "the outcome of the fight is the murder of a god", inwhich BOTH fighters involved can be referred to as "gods" in their own right, those being AE and Void Shiki
First off, I have no actual reason to believe your translation over the official one everyone has access to.
Secondly, no. They are indeed the same thing. Ryougi asserts that no matter how ancient or advanced an entity may be, they cannot escape the Death she brings. This statement is made right before her fight with Archetype Earth. The context of this quote clearly refers to the upcoming battle, reinforcing Shiki's claim that she can kill even a god as long as it is alive. In this instance, Archetype Earth is considered a god due to her lack of a concept of Death. However, Ryougi proves this notion wrong, demonstrating that all beings contingent on Akasha for their existence, including Types, are not truly exempt from Death.
Incredibly aggressive for someone misunderstanding the sentences I type. As I said above: Both fighters can be referred to as a "god". The fact that the outcome of the fight results in "the murder of a god" does not say who wins or who loses.
- Guy who barged in arrogantly claiming the opposition hasn't read the series complains about being met with aggression. K.
Anyway, except that Void doesn't fight Archetype at all. Ryougi, who is not a god, is the one who fought and killed her. Void cannot act against Ryougi's will, as she clearly stated in the Epilogue. So even if she wanted, she could not take over the body. She could only urge Ryougi towards Archetype. You do realise that Void wishes for the Death of all creation, and the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will, who, while still hating the world, thinks living a quiet life with Mikiya first is worth enduring the rest, right? Again, you are twisting a very straightforward statement that is being used in the context of Shiki's catchphrase of being able to kill anything, even gods, which she proves by killing AE.
You can say what you want, but Archetype Earth calling Ryougi "trash" and Ryougi Shiki saying that AE has no lines for her to exploit, as if she has no "death" outright, is not 'hyping it up'. Does not help your case how AE outright ignores Ryougi for the vast majority of the cutscene, preferring to directly comment to Void Shiki herself.
Again, you are arbitrarily jacking off Archetype's shit talk only, and conveniently leaving out that Ryougi was also confident in killing her despite having just seen that she doesn't have Death, which confirms AE's admission that she can bestow Death on what cannot die, and the omniscient Void's belief that Ryougi was strong enough to complete the task by sending her.
Yes, AE called Ryougi "trash", and then Ryougi tells her to get off her high horse and that she would slaughter her for her arrogance. And there are multiple narrative statements about MEoDP being able to kill anything contingent on the Root for their existence, with Void stating that Ryougi can kill everything with no exceptions by the time of the Epilogue, meaning comprehension isn't an issue for her anymore by then. Archetype herself said she came to bestow Death on what cannot die, she was merely confident she'd be able to beat her before she got the chance of doing that.
AE’s initial focus on Void makes sense given Void’s role in sending Ryougi, but AE eventually acknowledges Ryougi’s capabilities. The cliffhanger ending builds tension, but it is resolved in the guidebook, which confirms that AE’s boasts were unsubstantiated and that Ryougi did, in fact, defeat her. Fact.
They... don't do that? Archetype Earth says her goal is to try to kill something that cannot die, then mocks her for it. What Ryougi says after amounts to "hmph, I'll show you!" and nothing else. This is NOT helping your case.
It does. They are both trash talking the other. Archetype was confident in being able to beat Ryougi without letting her instill Death into her, while Ryougi was confident she would have won instead. They are both confident in defeating each other and the game clearly depicts this as a clash between two combatants of a similar standing. You are complaining over nothing. The focus should be on how their interactions build the narrative tension rather than on individual taunts or statements.
I am not saying it does not count. I am saying your entire argument banks off of something that can very easily be translated into another way, with the source material in question supporting the translation I provided. Please calm yourself.
Your translation does not support your point. Void cannot even come out without Ryougi's permission, unless she is asleep or something like in the Epilogue. But even in that situation, she still stated she cannot perform actions that directly conflict with Shiki's will, she is just able to roam around a bit. It's clear normal Ryougi was the one going to fight Archetype, with the guidebook referring to her iconic catchphrase right before the start of the battle, of her being able to kill even a god as long as it is alive. In the context of her killing an Ultimate One that lacked the concept of Death, based on the fact that said Ultimate One still ultimately relies on the Root for her existence, and thus can be ended, no matter what.
MEoDP is the manifestation of the truth that all things are contingent on Akasha for their existence and can be ended by it at anytime. With the KnK novel clearly mentioning that the only thing that could not be killed by MEoDP would be something truly without limitations of any kind like " " itself:
"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
".. Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
So you... agree that the author had to write it so that Tohno was not attempting to harm her? Thank you.
Not really. Checked the fight again and he took off his glasses and activated MEoDP, saying he will leave aside his usual style for this special night (Which is to not kill unless he has a valid reason, meaning he is going for the kill here). You also ignored how Tohno eventually uses his full power, even in short bursts, if he is close to Death even against people he cared for. With Ciel saying he can sense his death to the point of seeing the future. He subconsciously moved faster than Akiha could track in the Kohaku route and then Nanaya took over, despite Tohno being still able to eventually suppress him before he could actually kill Akiha. He blitzed Tatari Yumizuka when she was going to land the final blow, he blitzed the real Yumizuka in the VN until he reigned his instincts in again and he blitzstomped Vampire Sion when he got serious for a brief moment. Ryougi is a random person he knows nothing about and that has openly stated her intentions in wanting to kill him.
I personally think a loss quote that is UNIQUE to the arcade mode battle (NOT in regular vs mode fights), that SUPPORTS what is said in the actual main cutscene, is capable to be used. Regardless, even if you ignore it, the fact matters is that Tohno had to be specifically written to NOT be trying to harm Ryougi in any way.
What you personally think is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Ciel and Ries are above Archetype by accepting these random loss quotes. Again, these aren't alternate outcomes, just random win quotes. Each character's route represents their own timeline, with the selected character advancing through the story until reaching its conclusion. The game’s narrative design includes in-story losses if the plot intended them, as demonstrated by Archetype Earth losing to Arcueid in a mental battle and Kishima’s inability to defeat Tohno in his own route in AC. However, this context does not apply to Ryougi’s story.
And no, nothing in the win quote supports the actual cutscene, considering that Tohno specifically activated MEoDP in the cutscene (Which he only ever does on Roa in AA, which is telling) and said that he will not act according to his usual style that night in a serious tone. In addition, Ryougi is supposed to go after Archetype and was influenced by Void, who is omniscient. No reason then to send her if she wasn't actually going to complete the task. I'm supposed to believe that she randomly just stopped urging her and went away? lol.
Then tell me, what exactly happened in the novels against Lio? Surely she was not incapacitated at first because she was NOT trying to kill Lio... right?
Nice deflection. You said that Tohno and Ryougi make a big deal out of not killing, and therefore Tohno wasn't at his best against Ryougi. Except he specifically stated that he will leave aside his usual style that night and activated MEoDP right away. Tohno is also much less hesistant to kill compared to KnK Ryougi, as stated:
A peculiar type of superhero who's basically benign, but if you approach him with the intent to cause him harm he'll destroy you. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Tohno Shiki [Person's name], p.051
Ryougi is a complete stranger that openly approached him with the "intent to cause harm". Tohno's character progression is actually the complete opposite of Ryougi. While she is a natural born killer that eventually finds normalcy in spite of all, Tohno becomes progressively more open to his true nature as he gain an understanding of his powers as a natural born killer. Mirroring how the Nanaya family couldn't help but keep hunting demons even in the modern era, while the Ryougis retired to live a normal life. It even states that "Shiki the killer" is his impulse and a possible future version of his, as seen in Tsukihime 2 with DEATH.
Secondly, your point of "There are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his instincts" isn't valid in the first place. There's an entire route of the story dedicated to how they DON'T appear all the time, like Ciel's route... unless you're going to tell me that Nanaya or Satsujinki appeared within their fight at the end lol.
What? There is a massive difference between Tohno tapping into his instincts to various degrees in order to fight, and Nanaya actually taking over. What I'm talking about is the former. Everytime Tohno fights someone, he is tapping into his instincts. With him growing stronger the more he gives into them and is willing to kill. And the one in the Ciel route is not the Nanaya we usually refer to btw, just Tohno as a kid (Shiki before his memory loss/the actual Nanaya Shiki of the past). His passive and meek demeanor does not fit how Nanaya acts, who only showed up after his incident.
Are you... unable to understand the concept of "compatibility"?
And are you unable to understand that Nrvnqsr is not a mentally disabled old man incapable of moving, thinking, and having no weapons in any capacity? Because that's literally the only way for your take to be valid, lmao.
Nero's entire kit is "big defense" and "relatively low offense".
Objectively incorrect. Nrvnqsr's "kit" is about being a walking hivemind controlling hundreds of beasts with different attack and movement modes. This hivemind makes him exceptionally difficult to kill and enables him to overwhelm opponents with a vast array of creatures that can be summoned in unpredictable ways or from multiple directions. He can also consolidate a significant portion of his lives into a continental-level construct capable of restraining and absorbing his opponents into his chaos. Additionally, he can condense all of his beasts into the 999th Beast, his ultimate creature, known for its immense speed and destructive power.
You are essentially talking about a fanfiction generated version of Nrvnqsr that is a sitting duck, whose only method of attack is something that everyone can deal with somehow. I like how you conveniently ignored the various examples of MEoDP users being unable to "hard counter" him and got shitstomped by his "kit".
Ryougi killing Nrvnqsr in AA simply means that Nrvnqsr's beasts were not sufficiently strong or fast to overwhelm her or prevent her from tracing their lines. This indicates that, overall, Nrvnqsr is below Ryougi in terms of power and capability. Araya would paste Nrvnqsr with a flick of his wrist. The guy actually moved faster than Ryougi could even register, something that none of Nrvnqsr's beasts was capable of doing clearly. This is why, after all, she said Nrvnqsr was way easier to defeat.
Nasu even talks about this, saying that the "other stats" of the DAA's with high HP don't match up to their outrageously high endurance factor.
Nasu is a delusional moron who forgets basic lore about the series he supposedly wrote. His takes are so meme-tier that they are not even accepted on this site. Besides, he doesn't even say what you wish he did in this statement, since the "high HP" DAAs are actually used as a direct contrast to those relying "on material quantity", which if anything, fits way more with Nrvnqsr's Chaos.
but trying to say that "person whose really hard to kill" is not hard-countered by someone whose ability amounts to "I can kill anything in one hit" is genuinely delusional
No less delusional than making it out as if Nrvnqsr has literally 0 offensive measures and cannot fight physically, despite his 999th Beast and stronger Beasts being highlighted for their speed and destructive power. We already have on-screen examples of MEoDP users losing to Nrvnqsr in a fight, so your claim is already disproven.
The... hundreds of beasts ofwhich a dying, nearly unable to walk Arcueid on what, maybe 5% power, was effortlessly able to handle before she ran out of juice? Nero even outright says "yeah I am SUPER lucky I wasn't fighting the normal you".
Those weren't his stronger beasts, which he only pulled out later against Nanaya. When he infused his top tier lives into the Soil of Genesis, Arcueid was done for, and he stated that she wouldn't be able to escape even should she be at full power, which is confirmed by Arcueid herself saying Nrvnqsr is difficult to defeat at her full power and side materials stating that a serious Arcueid wouldn't be able to kill him.
Also, it seems you are forgetting that Arcueid has the ability to become automatically stronger and faster than her enemies through Gaia's back up. She can still use it obviously in her weakened state, it's just that she can only keep it up for a limited amount of time due to stamina issues. That's why she was initially running away from Nrvnqsr's beasts, but then suddenly turned around and stomped them. We also saw this gradual power up against Ciel, or her stomping Roa in the manga until she ran out of stamina (Fight was off screen in the VN).
We even see in the MB manga that Powered Ciel could barely beat Nrvnqsr and his normal beasts, and was powerless once he used the Soil of Genesis. And the very same MB Tohno that struggled to even land a hit on him? That's the same Tohno who stomped Base Ciel, blitzed a Tatari Yumizuka that was only "a bit behind" Arcueid's potential, and curbed a Dead Apostle Sion, who fought Wallachia and is above her base form that was praised by Arcuied for being able to keep up with her and damaged Wallachia manifested as 30% Arc. His track record is quite impressive for an "all defensive" dude.
Which would be the case if Tohno Shiki had his origin awakened. Inwhich he doesn't have it awakened. Your entire basis for MEODP's origins amounts to "it wasn't officially confirmed, but I think so!" and nothing else
Not everything needs an explicit confirmation. All evidence points to Tohno having his Origin awakened. Nanaya only showed up after the incident, and he is stated to be the guiding principle of Tohno's body, his instinct, with instincts and urges stemming from the Origin/Soul. Fact: MEoDP is an Origin power, which Tohno unlocked in the same exact way as Ryougi. And it's in fact stated to be an innate ability that was merely triggered by the incident. Which ties into Kiri's explanation that "masters" of death that innately were born with such powers are on another league entirely.
Your entire basis is "Tohno has the same exact circumstances as Ryougi regarding MEoDP, but it's still not an origin awakening. It's something else with the same exact results only I am aware of, trust me bro." Ok.
No, Tohno's abilities were never explicitly death. If you want to describe it as that, his "power of the body" was literally defined as 'see what cannot be seen', and not literally seeing death until Tohno Shiki was born.
"Just as I suspected. You had the latent ability, but that must have been the trigger... The Mystic Eyesof Death Perception, huh. Yes, with those, you could definitely kill even me."- Tsukihime- Near Side: Arcueid's route - 3/ The Black Beast I
The most powerful mystic eyes are those which are possessed from birth. Things like Shiki's mystic eyes that can see the death of things, or mystic eyes that can turn someone to stone with a glance, are "psychic abilities" that cannot be reenacted even with sorcery. Mystic eyes can be ranked by color. Normal mystic eyes shine red or green. Strong ones glow a luminous gold. And eyes that fall in the realm of gods glimmer with multiple colors, like jewels or rainbows. By the way, though Akiha's "Origami" bears a striking resemblance to mystic eyes, it is actually a kind of curse. And despite Shiki's eyes being called the "mystic eyes" of death perception, strictly speaking they are a psychic ability – specifically, the "pure eyes" possessed by saints and holy men. -Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod - TSUKIHIME Dictionary: Mystic Eyes [Unusual talent], p.188
Tohno had the MEoDP as a latent ability from birth. The incident was the trigger. Same circumstance as Ryougi. Then, both Ryougi's and Tohno's MEoDP are stated to be psychic abilities as pure eyes, in being able to see what is unseen. Ryougi is even said to be able to see what is unseen in general in KnK, including spirits:
Shiki has the power to see things that normal people can't. Aside from being able to see spirits, she can apparently see the lines that hold an object together. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6
Your quote is simply saying that Tohno's Pure Eyes are a psychic power that can see invisible things, like Ryougi's. However, just like Ryougi's, they also have an unique channel in those pure eyes stemmed from their respective Origins that also allowed them to see Death and the floor plan of reality after comprehending Death with their brain during their near-death experiences:
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
Originally, Shiki’s eyes were meant to “see that which cannot be seen.” However, after having two near death experiences his brain began to be able to comprehend death itself. Or to put it in other words, it is only by virtue of his mystic eyes and brain working together as a set that he is able to perceive death. -Tsukihime Data Collection: Tsukihime Dictionary
Yeah, it's also said that Kiri could not compete with Kouma due to his Origin awakening. With him needing an extremely specific tactic to barely come close to kill Kouma at his absolute weakest. Crazy. It's also crazy how it was stated that Kouma could kill Kiri with a light touch, and that he repelled all of his strikes. Kiri was only able to nearly kill him by taking advantage of his blindspot and through accumulated damage to his neck. It speaks to his skill, but he was fodder power wise, and Kishima himself had 0 martial arts traning at the time, so he had no skill to begin with.
It's also crazy that Kiri is unable to dodge bullets, which is something even basic Dead Apostles can do. While Kishima and Shiki can fight DAAs, and Aoko, who defeated the sentient will of the cosmos in a mental battle of reality warping. You cannot tell me that's possibly slower than Kiri. To say nothing of them scaling far above the pseudo Type-Moon BB, who partially merged with the moon cell's core, which can scan Gaia's reality in under a nanosecond. And the Moon Cell has been compared to a Type Moon without a sentient mind, yet Tohno at his peak has speebdlitzed characters that are physically (But not in hax) on TM's level.
My brother in christ the entire plot of Nanaya's route in Actress Again was that he wanted to kill kouma before he faded away, and he was LOVING it.
The reason Nanaya hesitated in Actress Again is because he started to become more human-like, as opposed to a cold-blooded killer:
You may say "But origin personalities can't change." Sure, but this is an imperfect shadow manifestation of the real Nanaya, so it's not exactly one-to-one. He doesn't even have MEoDP. He's not a perfect replication by White Len at all.
....That's my line. Nothing in your scan states he's a phsycopath. He just has murderous urges. That alone doesn't qualify at all. What it does qualify for though, is indeed an Origin awakening, given that both Ryougi and Lio also have murderous impulses tied to their respective Origins.
...Void Shiki was the original personality, and created SHIKI and Shiki AFTER she was born. It's a unique situation between them. I'm genuinely baffled at how you're acting, when you're so confident and... wrong.
She didn't directly create them. That's more of a strange wording some translations have. They emerged naturally from her as all minds do:
—But you do have a will. She seemed to him then such a tragic figure that he had to say it. Again she nodded.
—I do, after a fashion. A personality of the flesh as such arises in every human, but ordinarily it does not come to any kind of self-awareness. Usually, before that can happen, the intellect stirs to life. From out of the body, more precisely the brain, the intellect is produced.
—The intellect borne out of the brain's activity becomes a personality and gains executive function over the fleshly body. At that point any personality which dwelt in the flesh becomes meaningless.
—It's because of this that the intellect tends to treat the brain which gave birth to it as if it were something specially set apart from the rest of the fleshly body, even though it is just one part of the whole.
—Software is useless without hardware, but hardware can't function without software. The personality borne of the intellect forgets this truth: it forgets that it is the body's product, and it imagines that it is the creator of this fleshly, embodied "I" which it finds itself to be. That is the ordinary case. I am different only in that the order in which these things happened was different for me.
—Even so, the fact that I'm here, now, talking to you is entirely due to the personality of Shiki. If she wasn't here, I wouldn't even have language. I am, after all, nothing but flesh.
—I think I get it, he said. Your ability to "know" or "perceive" the outside world is dependent on Shiki's personality.
—Correct. I am simply an unpowered piece of hardware. Without the requisite software I am just an inert box. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
But that's besides the point. You're acting as if Void's origin being awakened in a different order from normal makes it so that Ryougi doesn't have to resist her origin impulses. Except that's blatantly not true, since the entire novel is about her resisting her murder impulses that Void states stem from her, the origin. She does this so she can live a quiet peaceful life with Mikiya.
Forget the novel. I don't even think you watched the movies.
They are fundamentally the same person, yes. But it's not an alternate personality. Nanaya outright... says that he is not an alternate personality. Did you read the scene?
He's a version of Shiki that acts entirely different. That's self-evidently another personality. He calls himself the "guiding principle" because he is the origin.
"Due to their origin", no. That's not what that is. Kiri is not a natural killer. He had to be taught how to move properly. He is a "talented killer" not a "natural killer."
....You are half-connecting the dots. Yeah, Kiri is not a natural killer, because those are killers who have innate affinities and traits suited for killing, which is dictated by their Origins. Again, you are just proving my point and pretending that something explicitly influenced by the soul/origin is suddenly something else entirely only known to yourself.
The entire basis for the Tsukihime Remake includes Tohno and Nanaya outright having conversations with each other. They're "Foundation" and "Outer layer", extrapolating off of Nanaya referring to himself as Shiki's "Foundation"
When the hell did we start talking about the Remake? LOL. It's an entirely different continuity with different lore, made to fit with Grand Order and the modern canon.
Your argument for them being Origins is nothing but headcanon.
Lmao. What? Yes, IF he did hit him harder, it would have. But....He DIDN'T hit harder because he COULDN'T. Here is how the fight went down:
-Kishima surprised Kiri with his speed, until he got used to it and could avoid his attacks.
-Despite this, Kishima no-sold dozen of attacks from Kiri, who noted that in return Kouma would have killed merely with a light touch.
-Kiri further described Kouma as being way beyond his reach, due to innately wielding the power of Death, specifically Destruction, which made him inherently far above someone like Kiri, who wasn't born with Death but could only chase after it forever.
-Kiri manages to land an ultimate, supreme strike by building up accumulated damage to Kishima's neck and by exploiting the blind spot under his right eye (A blindspot that, btw, Kiri instinctively created the moment he saw Kid Kouma, as he sensed he would have gotten folded by him in the future instantly).
-This ultimate strike, which was the result of specific conditions that he could not replicate otherwise, came close to killing Kouma, but he missed slightly and thus Kouma survived, causing him to finally catch Kiri and one shot him, and then unlock a sense of living and his Crimson Red Vermillion state.
So no, Kiri is not remotely comparable to Kishima, even when Kishima is untrained, lacking will to live, and in his base form. Kishima was also still limited to basic and unrefined close-combat attacks (Which were still strong enough to smoke Kiri had they landed) and hadn’t yet developed his ranged Hellfire manipulation. Kiri only did as well as he did due to his skill and technique, an area in which Kishima improved massively following RDG, on top of him gaining an absurd power boost following the events.
This is addressed to all your numerous "Kiri can totally stomp the guy he consistently described as leagues above him, trust me bro".
The entire narrative basis for the work is that if the Nanaya Clan weren't at the top, they would be wiped out, whether or not it was by the discrimination they faced, or by enemies they had made. Kiri was weakened. Severely.
They were at the top in a general sense, but Ryougi is an outlier among her clan, just like Tohno is for his. She is the physical avatar of Akasha, an experiment made to create a human version of the One.
Nothing states that Kiri was weakened severely. Next.
The entire first half of my post was me explaining how the "born with" phenomena was not origins. You are not reading my posts, and are instead focusing on continuing your agenda that not even the author agrees with.
You haven't really explained anything, you just arbitrarily asserted that the phenomena of being naturally born with specific traits is not related to origins, when that's all that origins even are.
My "agenda" is the truth, nothing else. And the author doesn't agree with me?
One: I don't give a shit what the author says about his works when what he says is in direct conflict with reality. If a writer says that Ryougi's hair are green even though we clearly see that they are black, it's invalid. The end. Death of the author is a very simple concept. External statements by the author do not alter the actual text or its interpretation. The source material and guidebooks always take precedence over external claims, unless said claims finally appear in a published or official work. If the external claims are contradicted by the source material, then they are no different from fanfiction.
Two: You are making random baseless assumptions about the author's intent here. We don't even know who the real author is. Nasu? The guy who gets even basic lore wrong, has completely conflicting world views to the older series, and was constantly regulated by other people to the point he was forced to rewrite Tsukihime entirely from scratch? Yeah no. Even the Fate/Zero writing team made fun of his absurd statements. TM doesn't even have a singular author that has authority on all works, that's why, after all, Nasu told people that they should ask questions to Gen over him on Fate/Zero, as if he had more authority there.
So you admit that Araya had to study to master his abilities? Damn. I don't even have to do anything here.
Negative comprehension, as expected. Did you just ignore me saying that Araya mastered bounded fields by complete accident? That shows he has a natural affinity for barriers/division/boundaries, which fits with the concept of Stillness and Origin awakening. The more he persisted with his strength of will as a static existence and recorded Death, the more capable he became as he understood more of the fundamental nature of reality and acted as a fundamental constant in the world. Mirroring how Lio became more capable and powerful the more he gave in his impulse of consumption, or Tohno becomes stronger the more he is willing to kill.
Now, I'll be nicer and also explain why Araya is a god tier, and far beyond Nanaya and Kishima as a "master of Death":
Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, yes, and said research gave him insight into the fundamental truths of reality and allowed him to manipulate Origins. He also recorded Death and suffering to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell. But that was it. He lacked further insight into his Origin powers. However, as time went on, his knowledge and willpower allowed him to subconsciously master bounded fields as the most absolute basic of his Origin's pratical application. These barriers are named after the six heavenly realms and represents Araya's ability to exert his will on the external world and imposing boundaries on the souls of creation, mirroring Yama's role in administering karmic retribution by reading someone's Origin and deciding their worth. They also reflected his ability to create separate worlds from his own essence of boundary and division. His bounded fields impose the concept of Stillness and Stasis, reverse physical damage, emanate existential dread, and mask his presence. All acting as a microcosm of his Origin's core function of creating new worlds and imposing balance, judgement and boundaries on all things.
By the time of KnK, Araya constructed his complex, which was a representation of his internal world and a manifestation of Taiji, duality and balance. Mirroring Stillness' function of managing the fundamental dualities of creation. His complex was also stated to reach True Magic and be its own world to which normal physical laws do not apply. It acted as a microcosm of creation, containing the 64 types of death, which then traced back all the way up to the Ryougi (Yin and Yang), which would have allowed Araya to open a path to Akasha if it wasn't for the Counterforce interfering. This show the potency of his Origin and how fundamental it is.
It also granted him full immortality, beyond even Death's reach. As Stillness is the ultimate balance and cessation of motion. An absolute equilibrium/balance. Finally, Touko describes his Origin as having no clear starting point, and that his desire his "Nothingness", just like Void. Both him and Void want to end creation and bring about a perfect realm of Death. He is fundamentally empty just like her. In fact, there is a clear Yin and Yang imagery of Araya vs Ryougi in paradox Spiral:
Almost as if he was her counterpart. This is because Akasha is based on the One from Neoplatonism, whereas Stillness is the Dyad, the principle of division, neutrality and differentiation. Stillness structures the one's boundless potential by imposing distinctions and boundaries, and deciding which one of the possibilities in the One are actualized or not. It manages the cycle of death and rebirth. It is an absolutely empty state where no force prevails over the other, and allows for the interplay between fundamental dualities like True/False. In that context, the One would have the role of Yang (Represented by Ryougi wearing a white kimono in that fight) as the active source of existence, while Stillness is Yin (Araya wearing black) as the passive backdrop over which the One operates.
This is why the guidebook states that KnK is his story, as Stillness is the Empty Boundary that divides the inside from the outside. The One from the Many. This is also why he is stated to embody the paradoxical spiral, as he is inherently geared towards the balance of all contradicting dualities. This is also why he is compared to Hell and Yama: He is the ultimate judge and the static suffering where all souls are judged and await for their fate. The Dyad assigns distinctions or return things to the primordial unified essence of the One. So his powers are actually insane, he just lacked insight on the abstract due to having only examples from the material world to go off.
Later on though, In his realm, Araya had the freedom to experiment with his powers even further, as Gaia and Alaya actively suppress any major reality warping trying to alter their Order. And we saw that thanks to the building being merged with him and acting as his own body, Araya learned to manipulate space to an extremely high degree, until he eventually started even breaching into abstract manipulation, creating a spatially closed, infinite reality that he created the rules of, giving it a precise framework. A basic form of abstract manipulation and representation of the Dyad structuring the boundaries of something boundless.
The only thing he lacked insight into at that point was the a true and direct understanding of the abstract realm. But Ryougi defeating him ironically gave it to him, as he never experienced death by himself before that moment, according to the narration. Without a physical body to anchor him to the world, Araya will wait inside of Stillness with his own self awareness and mind intact (Due to being completely immortal) until he is birthed again in the next generation. He will be there observing how the Dyad interacts with the fundamental abstract concepts of Akasha and creation. Just like how Ryougi and Tohno gained insight into Death through their near-death experience by observing it with their mind and becoming able to read it with their brain. Remember that Araya unlocked the basics of his power by examples from the material world, and the moment he could experiment without outside interference, he learned to manipulate spatial boundaries and reality itself to an extent. He will clearly obtain full mastery of Stillness when actually inside of it with his mind. This will grant him the manipulation of boundaries on an abstract/absolute level, which is absurdly broken. It's essentially the power of structuring the One's essence into a logical framework. It completely governs the rules of existence.
So Araya's innate power is far more fundamental than Death and Destruction. they are simply part of the totality of the framework it manages, making him far above both Kishima and Nanaya, which is why, after all, he stomped the same Ryougi that killed Archetype Earth easily.
I personally think that if someone "tries" to copy someone, and then we see said person PULL OFF the moves, directly said to be the "moves of his father", then we know that the person was successful in copying.
The power "beyond the boundary of a human" is referring to their psychic abilities. Their actual physical capabilities are only around the peak that a regular human can achieve by training their body to the limits, hence they cannot dodge bullets and are fodder to any relevant Tsukihime and Kara character.
Tohno Shiki is far different, as his body goes BEYOND the natural limit of a human by an extreme degree due to having a transcendental mind that guides the body when filled with concentration. As a result of his mind coming into contact with Akasha and Death after his Origin awakening. This is why his power level depends on his mental state and how much he is willing to kill someone. And the same applies to Ryougi and any other Origin awakened character.
An author can write the characters they made to be out of character for numerous reasons, like bad memory, they weren't the only one to contribute to the characterization, etc. Just look at Dragon Ball Super Goku and how much of a dumbass he is compared to his original self. Ryougi in MF is objectively contradicting to her KnK self, and her GO knock off is a complete mockery of her character. She suddenly admires humans and acts like a waifu. The real Shiki despises humans and only cares about Mikiya, while she doesn't give a shit about him dying in GO and thinks someone like Ritsuka is like him, even though this couldn't be more incorrect. Ritsuka is a generic self insert liked by everyone, while Mikiya is stated to not be liked or hated by anyone. He is in fact so normal and geared towards tranquility and stability that he is considered abnormal in his own way ironically, which is why he fundamentally the only one compatible with another extreme outlier that cannot fit with and despises most humans like Shiki. You'd know that if you have actually read the story. GO and MF Shiki only share their name and looks with the KnK version. The rest is a complete butchery of literally everything KnK went for. Mana literally destroys the peace that Shiki and Mikiya fought so hard to achieve, and both Shiki and Mikiya have precisely 0 logical way of even desiring to have a kid in the first place. Saying otherwise contradicts their core nature that act as the foundation of the story. From a story about outliers that find happiness in spite of their unique nature turns into supposed outliers conforming to society and wanking the idea muh hoping for a bright future, instead of enjoying their present. Furthermore, her family doesn't care for her beyond making her the head of it to run things. And she also doesn't care for them at all and leaves them, only for MF to make her come back and take over like they wanted, which is another out of character depiction. Shiki in MB barely went along with Mikiya insisting that she should at least talk with them and mantain some form of relationship, but taking over as the head is something else entirely. But yeah, totally the same characters lol.
Not particularly, it just gives more context to them. Especially considering that worlds that don't follow a certain 'rule' are outright removed. There's still infinite timelines, just ones that don't follow a certain guideline are destroyed.
And the thread I linked completely destroys that argument, and you're not trying to provide a counter. You're just repeating what was already addressed.
The only actual encounter we have with a TYPE in FGO, is one where we fight one with its heart entirely removed, after it fought massive battle, inwhich it had to split into two pieces, with the secondary piece actively wanting to commit suicide. It still took everything Chaldea had, the ENTIRE Throne they had access to (hundreds of servants, including REALLY high tiers) all at once, the concept of death being thrusted onto it, a MEODP user, and more. And this is one with its heart removed, actively wanting to kill itself.
That Type got its heart removed by losing to an immortal guy with no special abilities. This same Type before his heart got ripped out died from hitting the Earth too hard and took 60 million years to heal. Fodder bricks lmao.
I can't even begin to answer all of this, it's laughable. Type-Moon does not have "two canons". What you CAN say, is that Tsukihime Remake and the Original are two separate canons, which is true, but saying that the entirety of FSN, KnK, Mahoyo, and more, are suddenly rendered "non-canon" to FGO, which actively collaborate with it, is laughable.
It's not "Can", it's an objective fact that the Remake is an entirely different series with entirely different and retconned lore made to fit with Grand Order, which is too incompatible with the original Tsukihime. And Kara takes place in the same exact world as the Original Tsukihime, meaning that the one that appears in GO is from a rewritten unseen version of Kara made to fit with the modern canon. Which is why she is so ******* different and butchered compared to the original. Same with Mahoyo or Notes. GO is also canon to Extella, which is so much in contradiction with the original Extra that they had to rewrite it as Extella Zero just to fit it lol. The canons are undeniably split. If you do not like that, that's not my problem. You haven't addressed anything that wasn't covered by the thread already.
Making an entire thread dedicated to saying "the author does not know his own characters" despite him being extremely possessive over them and treating them with care, is delusional
Ah yes, he treats them so much with care that he forgets basic lore about them, butchered Ryougi's personality the moment he got more freedom, rewrote Tsukihime to have an entirely different theme that contradicts what the Original stood for, etc. In fact, here is a thread explaining why Nasu's WoG is total nonsense and irrelevant. Keep in mind that, as Violatas pointed out already, even on here his WoG is considered unreliable and cannot be used due to him contradicting himself all the time. Here is the thread.
These are not Origins. MMC is a completely separate concept.
It's a primordial, archetypal power inherent into someone. A phenomena that shapes someone's existence that the person himself is not even aware of, unless, ofc, they experience an Origin awakening. Said power also allowed the Servants to raise their stats on command/in accordance to their willpower, just like Tohno and co. They even use the same exact black box imagery used in KnK:
"Her body is full of black boxes so I can't even make anything similar." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This is all extremely specific and proves it's the same exact Origin awakening in KnK. It doesn't take a scientist to understand this. Now you may be asking, why is Ryougi "full" of Black boxes instead? Simple, her Origin is Akasha itself, the abstract nothing from which all phenomena are sourced from. Hence she is filled with infinite potential black boxes, which in turn mirrors her nature as an empty vessel with "maximum uses":
Eyes of Direct Death is only one aspect of the powers of this body called "Ryougi Shiki".- Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Others], p.035-036.
Ryougi Shiki. The Ryougi clan was a family who had toiled over the ages to give birth to one with an empty body who could act as a vessel, all in order to create a human with maximum uses. To be empty was 「 」. Without realising what a dangerous thing they were doing, they had given birth to a body called Shiki who was connected to 「 」. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
—But I was born a Ryougi, which is not a normal circumstance. The members of the Ryougi family bestowed an intellect upon me. Upon that hollow, thoughtless thing. They had plans for their daughter: they wanted to make Ryougi Shiki into an all-capable human being. So they tried to inculcate her with various personalities, and in the course of that they awakened me. The "original pattern", as you said, of her intellect. As the ground for everything that came afterward, I then created Shiki. She and he.- Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
"There was no great reason. I just became tired of creating more paradoxes every time I tried for the fundamental truth. The more we studied, the further away we got. It's the same as the Maelstrom of Origins. You can't approach it without the innocence we call emptiness, but in an empty state you aren't aware of it, so there's no point," - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5,
And again, notice how Ten Crowns is the archetypal power/origin inherent in all human beings, yet I already sent Araya explicitly stating that the Origin of humanity is nothing compared to the One. And of course, despite the MMC actively allowing Servants to wield the individual black boxes sourced from Shiki's essence without the negative consequences of an awakening, they would still get outright dissolved into nothingness should they try to use it a second time:
The entire concept you're banking on is people experiencing thousands of deaths. When Servants do not do that.
I never said that. You are getting into schizo territory now.
So you admit that Ryougi was at a compete disadvantage against Fujino and needed an environmental advantage against her? Against a BRANCH FAMILY member?
So you admit that an Origin awakened demon hunter who is an absurd outlier was significantly below a suppressed and injured Ryougi? Since you haven't bothered to offer a reply to any of the points I raised?
lol at Kirie, lmao even! This is meme-tier. Kirie could not do shit to Ryougi. Her one and only "weapon" was ineffective, and she has nothing on MEoDP.
I think if Ryougi Shiki explicitly needs a sword in order to take on Demons without her eyes, while a weakened Kiri almost outright killed the (second) strongest Mixblood ever born, then Ryougi does not have this. At all.
The fact that you took this statement from the 4th poll, but completely ignored the same exact profile stating that Ryougi combines the best of Tohno's Mystic Eyes and Nanaya's martial arts, with near identical performance with the latter's techniques is....Not that surprising:
" A listless girl who who wears both Eastern and Western clothes by wearing a leather jacket on top of her kimono. A character that seems have to have taken only the best parts of two characters: Tohno Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya Techniques. Every movement is high-spec, with no opening in either her offense or defense. However, attacks that do not use either her knife or her katana deal surprisingly low damage." - Character Introduction from Tsukihime's fourth Character Popularity Poll.
Hell, Ryougi stated that the fighting styles she has with her knife and hand to hand combat is not her actual style she was trained in, but merely something she copied by observing around:
"I suppose I have something along those lines. I train by taking down everything using that as my premise, so if you call it a finishing move, it is one. But we aren't of that school. And it's originally a self-created style as well.
"The thing you train is your mindset, Ryougi adds. "You remake your body. From your breathing to the placement of your feet, awareness, thoughts, to be able to remake all of them for combat. Even the way of using your muscles changes, so it might feel like you become a different person. I suppose tensing your body and mind as a fight starts, and while you are fighting, is the foundation of all martial arts. However, we followed only that too much, and as a result our path went too far."
"What, if you are strong then that's that. There wont be any instances where you go around getting bashed up like me. And you finished off those three guys in an instant. That'ss an incredible self-created style right there. "When I spoke, remembering that refreshing instant of when I met this girl, Ryougi seems a bit surprised. "That's different. I only copied what I had seen. More than that, there's never been an instance where I've used our house's school of fighting. "She nonchalantly spat out that frightening statement, then Ryougi collapsed onto the bed and fell asleep. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This is because the Ryougi's fighting style takes the fundamental foundation of all martial arts of remaking your thoughts and body for combat. By mirroring the concept of nothingness as a state of infinite transformation and potential, their martial arts can reconfigure their awareness and thoughts speficallly for combat, allowing for the creation of highly individualized and versatile fighting styles. While this can only be fully used with a sword, Ryougi said she still uses that concept as a premise for knife and H2H training, just not on the same level.
So the very same source you cited has knife Ryougi as physically capable as Nanaya by copying the Nanaya martial arts on the fly through observing them somewhere, and Ryougi herself has canonically killed Dead Apostle Ancestors. Neat. Demons are certainly fodder to her.
In fact, this quote is not necessarily referring to demons specifically, but rather to supernatural or magical entities in general. The term used in the Japanese text is "魔" (ma), which can be translated as "magic" or "demon" depending on the context. Given that the quote explicitly discusses Shiki's swordsmanship skills as an alternative to her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, it is clear that in this context, "魔" is referring to various types of supernatural or magical threats, including demons or specific magical entities.
The key point here is that Shiki's swordsmanship is highlighted as a viable means of confronting these supernatural forces, which aligns with the primary function of MEoDP. It would be illogical to suggest that enhanced physical capabilities alone would serve as an adequate substitute for MEoDP in dealing with such threats. Thus, the quote should be understood as merely saying that Shiki's Self Hypnosis has such skilled swordmanship that she can affect intangible and supernatural shit without needing her mystic eyes, on top of being able to see into the future. This is because Self Hypnosis is meant to bring out someone's true nature, depending on the strength of the mental suggestion:
-- Spells. Within the realm of mages, they were nothing more than suggestions aimed at oneself.
There is a magecraft for causing wind to blow. Just like a certain type of weapon, this was a power which had an ability that was determined from the start. No matter what mage used it, its effect would not change. Only the incantation was different.
The incantations called spells were for the purpose of activating the magecraft that one's body had become familiar with. Its contents showed the nature of the mage. That was because as long as you kept the necessary meanings and keywords for the activation of that particular piece of magecraft, the details of the incantation could be changed to suit the user's fancy.
The incantations of a narcissistic and pompous mage who easily got infatuated with themself was long. But it was also true that the more meaning you put into the spell, the more powerful the final effect. This was because the stronger the suggestion you put upon yourself, the stronger the ability you pulled out from yourself would be. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
And Shiki's family has the strongest form of SH, which outright transform the entire body and mind for combat, turning into a living weapon made entirely for killing:
The reason Shiki became like a different person was none other than from a method of controlling battle will, trained to the extreme. A long, long, time ago. Samurai had been said to accept killing and be killed naturally the moment their swords were drawn. This wasn't because of an emotional state as a warrior. The instant they gripped the handle, they would awaken. Their bodies transform into ones existing only for killing, their brains turn into ones moving only for survival. This wasn't beyond the level of bracing oneself before a match. By drawing their katana, the functions of their brain switched. They were not switching their body to one suited for battle. Their brain was remaking their bodies into one fit for combat. By doing so, the muscles work in a way that should not be used by living beings, and the veins change the circulation route of the blood, prevent them from even breathing. ... Yes, human functions useless in battle are completely ejected as they are transformed into a part meant for war. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
So a suggestion this strong would certainly bring out Shiki's true nature, with said True Nature being that of an empty vessel meant to commune with the One, which corresponds to her body, and thus, her soul/origin. This is why Araya saw a glimpse of Void during that fight. Because Shiki's SH "empties" her mind and makes her one with her sword, allowing her to use Void's swordmanship skills, which is an aspect of the perfection of the One applied specifically to swordfighting. She connectes to an aspect of the One in the same way she does with MEoDP, but this time to achieve a perfect mindset for combat. She reaches Nothingness itself, further suggested when Araya regarded her stance as the strongest and most foundational:
It was a seigan stance—the most widely used and foundational posture in many schools of swordsmanship, regarded as the strongest. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Which is an obvious symbolism for Shiki in this state being connected to the source of all martial arts. Which is why she is able to attack supernatural things and see potential futures even when not using MEoDP. Her swordmanship has an existential weight that damages the true essence of something, regardless of their nature. Just like MEoDP represents the truth that all things are extensions of the One that it can end at anytime, Shiki's SH represents the truth that all things are unified under one force, which allows her swordmanship to cut away at any false distinction and align the opponent with the purity and simplicity of martial arts. That's also why Void's last Arc is a seemingly simple slash that however explicitly does not make use of MEoDP, with the move itself being outright named after Akasha itself: Her swordmanship skills embodies the essence of the One. That's why Araya said this:
No one had known her true form. He had assumed that Ryougi Shiki's fighting style was by her mystic eyes and knife. But the truth was this. This woman is meant to be a killer using a katana. Compared to how she is know, her normal self cannot even match up to her."......You had me deceived. Then you were only pretending to be serious in your battle with Asagami Fujino?" Ryougi Shiki answered no, shaking her head to the words of the magus. Whatever the weapon, I am always serious, her cold eyes told him. The magus saw her gaze and realized. What did this woman say just now? What is the weapon that is here? When did she stop being Shiki? "I see......We finally meet...!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
As you can see, Araya included "mystic eyes" with the knife in talking about her normal fighting style being just a substitute. Proving her swordmanship is her true strength that can easily be just as potent as her MEoDP against supernatural things for the aforementioned reasons.
In short, not only your source just proves my point that she is comparable to Nanaya just in base form, but the part about Self Hypnosis Shiki absolutely doesn't say what you wished.
Your response to me posting a screenshot of narration saying "if this attack was stronger, it would have killed him", was to say that I was missing context... of the attack not killing the person.
I already explained all of this buddy. Sorry, but Kiri is fodder to the big boys. Hell, he is 99% likely a Lio victim, since he naturally embodies the phenomena shaping the Nanaya fighting styles, to the point he replicated their iconic maneuvers in his normal state. And while he lacks their knowledge of assassination, he compensates for that with his predatory instincts and the fact that, once his Original personality took over, he became so much stronger, faster and accurate that he "surpassed the line of an actual animal". Yet Ryougi....Dismembered him while being severely injured and drugged, so fast that this new version of Lio died without even understanding what happened.
"Something like". Thank you. The "guiding principle" is the Crimson Moon, as I outright posted in the screenshots. Please read Kagetsu Tohya.
"Guiding principle" is also what Nanaya referred to himself as. With Nanaya being the personality of the origin. So you mentioning this only resulted in you backing yourself to a corner.
AE is another personality within Arcueid that is waiting for her to lose the will to live so she can take over. Almost like an origin personality. Almost like.... it's just that.
The vast majority of your arguments rely on headcanon. Please talk to people respectfully, though I suppose you refuse to do that, now that your pride was challenged by me.
You're the one came in saying how I haven't read these series, which another user pointed out. Now you're crying that your shit talk backfired on you? Funny. Start acting like a rational human being, and I'll treat you as such. It's that simple.
by the way, arcueid is never referred to a god, like ever. however ,ryougi is offhandedly called that once or twice in other works, like all around type-moon. (she denies the notion that she’s a god,though.)
You act literally 100% identical to Neco. Please, stop with the farce already.
Why should I consider that, when the statement explicitly stated that Ryougi's destiny was to kill a God, aka Archetype Earth? And before you whine "muh Archetype never referred to god!" that's in the context of Shiki's catchphrase about being able to kill even a god as long as it is alive, which she said replying to Archetype's arrogance right before fighting her.
Basic contextual and reading comprehension.
Anyway, I learned from experience that dealing with you is a complete waste of time, Neco. And so do a lot of people. So Idc about anything else you may say to me after this. We've now gotten to the point that you're resorting to saying Ryougi fought herself (Void) and killed her. This is literally the dumbest possible shit anyone could come up with to cope. LOL. Cya, kid.
First off, I have no actual reason to believe your translation over the official one everyone has access to.
Secondly, no. They are indeed the same thing. Ryougi asserts that no matter how ancient or advanced an entity may be, they cannot escape the Death she brings. This statement is made right before her fight with Archetype Earth. The context of this quote clearly refers to the upcoming battle, reinforcing Shiki's claim that she can kill even a god as long as it is alive. In this instance, Archetype Earth is considered a god due to her lack of a concept of Death. However, Ryougi proves this notion wrong, demonstrating that all beings contingent on Akasha for their existence, including Types, are not truly exempt from Death.
- Guy who barged in arrogantly claiming the opposition hasn't read the series complains about being met with aggression. K.
Anyway, except that Void doesn't fight Archetype at all. Ryougi, who is not a god, is the one who fought and killed her. Void cannot act against Ryougi's will, as she clearly stated in the Epilogue. So even if she wanted, she could not take over the body. She could only urge Ryougi towards Archetype. You do realise that Void wishes for the Death of all creation, and the only reason she doesn't simply blink anything in the first place is because she is bound to normal Shiki's will, who, while still hating the world, thinks living a quiet life with Mikiya first is worth enduring the rest, right? Again, you are twisting a very straightforward statement that is being used in the context of Shiki's catchphrase of being able to kill anything, even gods, which she proves by killing AE.
Again, you are arbitrarily jacking off Archetype's shit talk only, and conveniently leaving out that Ryougi was also confident in killing her despite having just seen that she doesn't have Death, which confirms AE's admission that she can bestow Death on what cannot die, and the omniscient Void's belief that Ryougi was strong enough to complete the task by sending her.
Yes, AE called Ryougi "trash", and then Ryougi tells her to get off her high horse and that she would slaughter her for her arrogance. And there are multiple narrative statements about MEoDP being able to kill anything contingent on the Root for their existence, with Void stating that Ryougi can kill everything with no exceptions by the time of the Epilogue, meaning comprehension isn't an issue for her anymore by then. Archetype herself said she came to bestow Death on what cannot die, she was merely confident she'd be able to beat her before she got the chance of doing that.
AE’s initial focus on Void makes sense given Void’s role in sending Ryougi, but AE eventually acknowledges Ryougi’s capabilities. The cliffhanger ending builds tension, but it is resolved in the guidebook, which confirms that AE’s boasts were unsubstantiated and that Ryougi did, in fact, defeat her. Fact.
It does. They are both trash talking the other. Archetype was confident in being able to beat Ryougi without letting her instill Death into her, while Ryougi was confident she would have won instead. They are both confident in defeating each other and the game clearly depicts this as a clash between two combatants of a similar standing. You are complaining over nothing. The focus should be on how their interactions build the narrative tension rather than on individual taunts or statements.
Your translation does not support your point. Void cannot even come out without Ryougi's permission, unless she is asleep or something like in the Epilogue. But even in that situation, she still stated she cannot perform actions that directly conflict with Shiki's will, she is just able to roam around a bit. It's clear normal Ryougi was the one going to fight Archetype, with the guidebook referring to her iconic catchphrase right before the start of the battle, of her being able to kill even a god as long as it is alive. In the context of her killing an Ultimate One that lacked the concept of Death, based on the fact that said Ultimate One still ultimately relies on the Root for her existence, and thus can be ended, no matter what.
MEoDP is the manifestation of the truth that all things are contingent on Akasha for their existence and can be ended by it at anytime. With the KnK novel clearly mentioning that the only thing that could not be killed by MEoDP would be something truly without limitations of any kind like " " itself:
Since Archetype is not a self sustaining, omnipotent singularity thinking itself into existence, but sourced by the Root, then she has a thread connecting her to it. This is universal to all things born from Akasha, with no exceptions:
Araya even stated that his Sarira cannot escape Ryougi's forever, despite being removed entirely from the cycle of Death and Rebirth (Which is more impressive than simply not running off the concept of Death exclusive to Gaia's reality), because as long as it has a cause for movement, Ryougi can cut its root of motion:
This includes Araya's own body. Despite his essence being completely static and "already dead", his physical body still actually participates in reality and thus has faint threads that allows it to move. Archetype does not run on the concept of Death in Gaia, yes, but she is still a contingent entity sourced from Akasha, actively interacting with reality, and that has a cause for movement (Her being created by Type Moon and being the result of Arcueid's Origin awakening), so she ultimately cannot escape MEoDP's full scope. Please educate yourself.
Not really. Checked the fight again and he took off his glasses and activated MEoDP, saying he will leave aside his usual style for this special night (Which is to not kill unless he has a valid reason, meaning he is going for the kill here). You also ignored how Tohno eventually uses his full power, even in short bursts, if he is close to Death even against people he cared for. With Ciel saying he can sense his death to the point of seeing the future. He subconsciously moved faster than Akiha could track in the Kohaku route and then Nanaya took over, despite Tohno being still able to eventually suppress him before he could actually kill Akiha. He blitzed Tatari Yumizuka when she was going to land the final blow, he blitzed the real Yumizuka in the VN until he reigned his instincts in again and he blitzstomped Vampire Sion when he got serious for a brief moment. Ryougi is a random person he knows nothing about and that has openly stated her intentions in wanting to kill him.
What you personally think is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Ciel and Ries are above Archetype by accepting these random loss quotes. Again, these aren't alternate outcomes, just random win quotes. Each character's route represents their own timeline, with the selected character advancing through the story until reaching its conclusion. The game’s narrative design includes in-story losses if the plot intended them, as demonstrated by Archetype Earth losing to Arcueid in a mental battle and Kishima’s inability to defeat Tohno in his own route in AC. However, this context does not apply to Ryougi’s story.
And no, nothing in the win quote supports the actual cutscene, considering that Tohno specifically activated MEoDP in the cutscene (Which he only ever does on Roa in AA, which is telling) and said that he will not act according to his usual style that night in a serious tone. In addition, Ryougi is supposed to go after Archetype and was influenced by Void, who is omniscient. No reason then to send her if she wasn't actually going to complete the task. I'm supposed to believe that she randomly just stopped urging her and went away? lol.
Nice deflection. You said that Tohno and Ryougi make a big deal out of not killing, and therefore Tohno wasn't at his best against Ryougi. Except he specifically stated that he will leave aside his usual style that night and activated MEoDP right away. Tohno is also much less hesistant to kill compared to KnK Ryougi, as stated:
Ryougi is a complete stranger that openly approached him with the "intent to cause harm". Tohno's character progression is actually the complete opposite of Ryougi. While she is a natural born killer that eventually finds normalcy in spite of all, Tohno becomes progressively more open to his true nature as he gain an understanding of his powers as a natural born killer. Mirroring how the Nanaya family couldn't help but keep hunting demons even in the modern era, while the Ryougis retired to live a normal life. It even states that "Shiki the killer" is his impulse and a possible future version of his, as seen in Tsukihime 2 with DEATH.
What? There is a massive difference between Tohno tapping into his instincts to various degrees in order to fight, and Nanaya actually taking over. What I'm talking about is the former. Everytime Tohno fights someone, he is tapping into his instincts. With him growing stronger the more he gives into them and is willing to kill. And the one in the Ciel route is not the Nanaya we usually refer to btw, just Tohno as a kid (Shiki before his memory loss/the actual Nanaya Shiki of the past). His passive and meek demeanor does not fit how Nanaya acts, who only showed up after his incident.
And are you unable to understand that Nrvnqsr is not a mentally disabled old man incapable of moving, thinking, and having no weapons in any capacity? Because that's literally the only way for your take to be valid, lmao.
Objectively incorrect. Nrvnqsr's "kit" is about being a walking hivemind controlling hundreds of beasts with different attack and movement modes. This hivemind makes him exceptionally difficult to kill and enables him to overwhelm opponents with a vast array of creatures that can be summoned in unpredictable ways or from multiple directions. He can also consolidate a significant portion of his lives into a continental-level construct capable of restraining and absorbing his opponents into his chaos. Additionally, he can condense all of his beasts into the 999th Beast, his ultimate creature, known for its immense speed and destructive power.
You are essentially talking about a fanfiction generated version of Nrvnqsr that is a sitting duck, whose only method of attack is something that everyone can deal with somehow. I like how you conveniently ignored the various examples of MEoDP users being unable to "hard counter" him and got shitstomped by his "kit".
Ryougi killing Nrvnqsr in AA simply means that Nrvnqsr's beasts were not sufficiently strong or fast to overwhelm her or prevent her from tracing their lines. This indicates that, overall, Nrvnqsr is below Ryougi in terms of power and capability. Araya would paste Nrvnqsr with a flick of his wrist. The guy actually moved faster than Ryougi could even register, something that none of Nrvnqsr's beasts was capable of doing clearly. This is why, after all, she said Nrvnqsr was way easier to defeat.
Nasu is a delusional moron who forgets basic lore about the series he supposedly wrote. His takes are so meme-tier that they are not even accepted on this site. Besides, he doesn't even say what you wish he did in this statement, since the "high HP" DAAs are actually used as a direct contrast to those relying "on material quantity", which if anything, fits way more with Nrvnqsr's Chaos.
No less delusional than making it out as if Nrvnqsr has literally 0 offensive measures and cannot fight physically, despite his 999th Beast and stronger Beasts being highlighted for their speed and destructive power. We already have on-screen examples of MEoDP users losing to Nrvnqsr in a fight, so your claim is already disproven.
Those weren't his stronger beasts, which he only pulled out later against Nanaya. When he infused his top tier lives into the Soil of Genesis, Arcueid was done for, and he stated that she wouldn't be able to escape even should she be at full power, which is confirmed by Arcueid herself saying Nrvnqsr is difficult to defeat at her full power and side materials stating that a serious Arcueid wouldn't be able to kill him.
Also, it seems you are forgetting that Arcueid has the ability to become automatically stronger and faster than her enemies through Gaia's back up. She can still use it obviously in her weakened state, it's just that she can only keep it up for a limited amount of time due to stamina issues. That's why she was initially running away from Nrvnqsr's beasts, but then suddenly turned around and stomped them. We also saw this gradual power up against Ciel, or her stomping Roa in the manga until she ran out of stamina (Fight was off screen in the VN).
We even see in the MB manga that Powered Ciel could barely beat Nrvnqsr and his normal beasts, and was powerless once he used the Soil of Genesis. And the very same MB Tohno that struggled to even land a hit on him? That's the same Tohno who stomped Base Ciel, blitzed a Tatari Yumizuka that was only "a bit behind" Arcueid's potential, and curbed a Dead Apostle Sion, who fought Wallachia and is above her base form that was praised by Arcuied for being able to keep up with her and damage Wallachia manifested as 30% Arc. His track record is quite impressive for a "all defensive" dude.
Not everything needs an explicit confirmation. All evidence points to Tohno having his Origin awakened. Nanaya only showed up after the incident, and he is stated to be the guiding principle of Tohno's body, his instinct, with instincts and urges stemming from the Origin/Soul. Fact: MEoDP is an Origin power, which Tohno unlocked in the same exact way as Ryougi. And it's in fact stated to be an innate ability that was merely triggered by the incident. Which ties into Kiri's explanation that "masters" of death that innately were born with such powers are on another league entirely.
Your entire basis is "Tohno has the same exact circumstances as Ryougi regarding MEoDP, but it's still not an origin awakening. It's something else with the same exact results only I am aware of, trust me bro." Ok.
Or we could cut the bullshit:
Tohno had the MEoDP as a latent ability from birth. The incident was the trigger. Same circumstance as Ryougi. Then, both Ryougi's and Tohno's MEoDP are stated to be psychic abilities as pure eyes, in being able to see what is unseen. Ryougi is even said to be able to see what is unseen in general in KnK, including spirits:
Your quote is simply saying that Tohno's Pure Eyes are a psychic power that can see invisible things, like Ryougi's. However, just like Ryougi's, they also have an unique channel in those pure eyes stemmed from their respective Origins that also allowed them to see Death and the floor plan of reality after comprehending Death with their brain during their near-death experiences:
Yeah, it's also said that Kiri could not compete with Kouma due to his Origin awakening. With him needing an extremely specific tactic to barely come close to kill Kouma at his absolute weakest. Crazy. It's also crazy how it was stated that Kouma could kill Kiri with a light touch, and that he repelled all of his strikes. Kiri was only able to nearly kill him by taking advantage of his blindspot and through accumulated damage to his neck. It speaks to his skill, but he was fodder power wise, and Kishima himself had 0 martial arts traning at the time, so he had no skill to begin with.
It's also crazy that Kiri is unable to dodge bullets, which is something even basic Dead Apostles can do. While Kishima and Shiki can fight DAAs, and Aoko, who defeated the sentient will of the cosmos in a mental battle of reality warping. You cannot tell me that's possibly slower than Kiri. To say nothing of them scaling far above the pseudo Type-Moon BB, who partially merged with the moon cell's core, which can scan Gaia's reality in under a nanosecond. And the Moon Cell has been compared to a Type Moon without a sentient mind, yet Tohno at his peak has speebdlitzed characters that are physically (But not in hax) on TM's level.
He loves it, but not enough to make him blinded where it hinders his combat ability or causes him to make stupid mistakes.
The reason Nanaya hesitated in Actress Again is because he started to become more human-like, as opposed to a cold-blooded killer:
You may say "But origin personalities can't change." Sure, but this is an imperfect shadow manifestation of the real Nanaya, so it's not exactly one-to-one. He doesn't even have MEoDP. He's not a perfect replication by White Len at all.
....That's my line. Nothing in your scan states he's a phsycopath. He just has murderous urges. That alone doesn't qualify at all. What it does qualify for though, is indeed an Origin awakening, given that both Ryougi and Lio also have murderous impulses tied to their respective Origins.
She didn't directly create them. That's more of a strange wording some translations have. They emerged naturally from her as all minds do:
But that's besides the point. You're acting as if Void's origin being awakened in a different order from normal makes it so that Ryougi doesn't have to resist her origin impulses. Except that's blatantly not true, since the entire novel is about her resisting her murder impulses that Void states stem from her, the origin. She does this so she can live a quiet peaceful life with Mikiya.
Forget the novel. I don't even think you watched the movies.
He's a version of Shiki that acts entirely different. That's self-evidently another personality. He calls himself the "guiding principle" because he is the origin.
....You are half-connecting the dots. Yeah, Kiri is not a natural killer, because those are killers who have innate affinities and traits suited for killing, which is dictated by their Origins. Again, you are just proving my point and pretending that something explicitly influenced by the soul/origin is suddenly something else entirely only known to yourself.
When the hell did we start talking about the Remake? LOL. It's an entirely different continuity with different lore, made to fit with Grand Order and the modern canon.
I provided very specific evidence for my argument. Stop projecting.
Lmao. What? Yes, IF he did hit him harder, it would have. But....He DIDN'T hit harder because he COULDN'T. Here is how the fight went down:
-Kishima surprised Kiri with his speed, until he got used to it and could avoid his attacks.
-Despite this, Kishima no-sold dozen of attacks from Kiri, who noted that in return Kouma would have killed merely with a light touch.
-Kiri further described Kouma as being way beyond his reach, due to innately wielding the power of Death, specifically Destruction, which made him inherently far above someone like Kiri, who wasn't born with Death but could only chase after it forever.
-Kiri manages to land an ultimate, supreme strike by building up accumulated damage to Kishima's neck and by exploiting the blind spot under his right eye (A blindspot that, btw, Kiri instinctively created the moment he saw Kouma, as he sensed he would have gotten folded by him instantly).
-This ultimate strike, which was the result of specific conditions that he could not replicate otherwise, came close to killing Kouma, but he missed slightly and thus Kouma survived, causing him to finally catch Kiri and one shot him, and then unlock a sense of living and his Crimson Red Vermillion state.
So no, Kiri is not remotely comparable to Kishima, even when Kishima is untrained, lacking will to live, and in his base form. Kishima was also still limited to basic and unrefined close-combat attacks (Which were still strong enough to smoke Kiri had they landed) and hadn’t yet developed his ranged Hellfire manipulation. Kiri only did as well as he did due to his skill and technique, an area in which Kishima improved massively following RDG, on top of him gaining an absurd power boost following the events.
This is addressed to all your numerous "Kiri can totally stomp the guy he consistently described as leagues above him, trust me bro".
They were at the top in a general sense, but Ryougi is an outlier among her clan, just like Tohno is for his. She is the physical avatar of Akasha, an experiment made to create a human version of the One.
Nothing states that Kiri was weakened severely. Next.
You haven't really explained anything, you just arbitrarily asserted that the phenomena of being naturally born with specific traits is not related to origins, when that's all that origins even are.
My "agenda" is the truth, nothing else. And the author doesn't agree with me?
One: I don't give a shit what the author says about his works when what he says is in direct conflict with reality. If a writer says that Ryougi's hair are green even though we clearly see that they are black, it's invalid. The end. Death of the author is a very simple concept. External statements by the author do not alter the actual text or its interpretation. The source material and guidebooks always take precedence over external claims, unless said claims finally appear in a published or official work. If the external claims are contradicted by the source material, then they are no different from fanfiction.
Two: You are making random baseless assumptions about the author's intent here. We don't even know who the real author is. Nasu? The guy who gets even basic lore wrong, has completely conflicting world views to the older series, and was constantly regulated by other people to the point he was forced to rewrite Tsukihime entirely from scratch? Yeah no. Even the Fate/Zero writing team made fun of his absurd statements. TM doesn't even have a singular author that has authority on all works, that's why, after all, Nasu told people that they should ask questions to Gen over him on Fate/Zero, as if he had more authority there.
Negative comprehension, as expected. Did you just ignore me saying that Araya mastered bounded fields by complete accident? That shows he has a natural affinity for barriers/division/boundaries, which fits with the concept of Stillness and Origin awakening. The more he persisted with his strength of will as a static existence and recorded Death, the more capable he became as he understood more of the fundamental nature of reality and acted as a fundamental constant in the world. Mirroring how Lio became more capable and powerful the more he gave in his impulse of consumption, or Tohno becomes stronger the more he is willing to kill.
Now, I'll be nicer and also explain why Araya is a god tier, and far beyond Nanaya and Kishima as a "master of Death":
Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, yes, and said research gave him insight into the fundamental truths of reality and allowed him to manipulate Origins. He also recorded Death and suffering to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell. But that was it. He lacked further insight into his Origin powers. However, as time went on, his knowledge and willpower allowed him to subconsciously master bounded fields as the most absolute basic of his Origin's pratical application. These barriers are named after the six heavenly realms and represents Araya's ability to exert his will on the external world and imposing boundaries on the souls of creation, mirroring Yama's role in administering karmic retribution by reading someone's Origin and deciding their worth. They also reflected his ability to create separate worlds from his own essence of boundary and division. His bounded fields impose the concept of Stillness and Stasis, reverse physical damage, emanate existential dread, and mask his presence. All acting as a microcosm of his Origin's core function of creating new worlds and imposing balance, judgement and boundaries on all things.
By the time of KnK, Araya constructed his complex, which was a representation of his internal world and a manifestation of Taiji, duality and balance. Mirroring Stillness' function of managing the fundamental dualities of creation. His complex was also stated to reach True Magic and be its own world to which normal physical laws do not apply. It acted as a microcosm of creation, containing the 64 types of death, which then traced back all the way up to the Ryougi (Yin and Yang), which would have allowed Araya to open a path to Akasha if it wasn't for the Counterforce interfering. This show the potency of his Origin and how fundamental it is.
It also granted him full immortality, beyond even Death's reach. As Stillness is the ultimate balance and cessation of motion. An absolute equilibrium/balance. Finally, Touko describes his Origin as having no clear starting point, and that his desire his "Nothingness", just like Void. Both him and Void want to end creation and bring about a perfect realm of Death. He is fundamentally empty just like her. In fact, there is a clear Yin and Yang imagery of Araya vs Ryougi in paradox Spiral:
Almost as if he was her counterpart. This is because Akasha is based on the One from Neoplatonism, whereas Stillness is the Dyad, the principle of division, neutrality and differentiation. Stillness structures the one's boundless potential by imposing distinctions and boundaries, and deciding which one of the possibilities in the One are actualized or not. It manages the cycle of death and rebirth. It is an absolutely empty state where no force prevails over the other, and allows for the interplay between fundamental dualities like True/False. In that context, the One would have the role of Yang (Represented by Ryougi wearing a white kimono in that fight) as the active source of existence, while Stillness is Yin (Araya wearing black) as the passive backdrop over which the One operates.
This is why the guidebook states that KnK is his story, as Stillness is the Empty Boundary that divides the inside from the outside. The One from the Many. This is also why he is stated to embody the paradoxical spiral, as he is inherently geared towards the balance of all contradicting dualities. This is also why he is compared to Hell and Yama: He is the ultimate judge and the static suffering where all souls are judged and await for their fate. The Dyad assigns distinctions or return things to the primordial unified essence of the One. So his powers are actually insane, he just lacked insight on the abstract due to having only examples from the material world to go off.
Later on though, In his realm, Araya had the freedom to experiment with his powers even further, as Gaia and Alaya actively suppress any major reality warping trying to alter their Order. And we saw that thanks to the building being merged with him and acting as his own body, Araya learned to manipulate space to an extremely high degree, until he eventually started even breaching into abstract manipulation, creating a spatially closed, infinite reality that he created the rules of, giving it a precise framework. A basic form of abstract manipulation and representation of the Dyad structuring the boundaries of something boundless.
The only thing he lacked insight into at that point was the a true and direct understanding of the abstract realm. But Ryougi defeating him ironically gave it to him, as he never experienced death by himself before that moment, according to the narration. Without a physical body to anchor him to the world, Araya will wait inside of Stillness with his own self awareness and mind intact (Due to being completely immortal) until he is birthed again in the next generation. He will be there observing how the Dyad interacts with the fundamental abstract concepts of Akasha and creation. Just like how Ryougi and Tohno gained insight into Death through their near-death experience by observing it with their mind and becoming able to read it with their brain. Remember that Araya unlocked the basics of his power by examples from the material world, and the moment he could experiment without outside interference, he learned to manipulate spatial boundaries and reality itself to an extent. He will clearly obtain full mastery of Stillness when actually inside of it with his mind. This will grant him the manipulation of boundaries on an abstract/absolute level, which is absurdly broken. It's essentially the power of structuring the One's essence into a logical framework. It completely governs the rules of existence.
So Araya's innate power is far more fundamental than Death and Destruction. they are simply part of the totality of the framework it manages, making him far above both Kishima and Nanaya, which is why, after all, he stomped the same Ryougi that killed Archetype Earth easily.
Again, there's levels of proficiency to techniques. The fact it says he tried implies he wasn't able to copy them properly to Kiri's level.
The power "beyond the boundary of a human" is referring to their psychic abilities. Their actual physical capabilities are only around the peak that a regular human can achieve by training their body to the limits, hence they cannot dodge bullets and are fodder to any relevant Tsukihime and Kara character.
Tohno Shiki is far different, as his body goes BEYOND the natural limit of a human by an extreme degree due to having a transcendental mind that guides the body when filled with concentration. As a result of his mind coming into contact with Akasha and Death after his Origin awakening. This is why his power level depends on his mental state and how much he is willing to kill someone. And the same applies to Ryougi and any other Origin awakened character.
An author can write the characters they made to be out of character for numerous reasons, like bad memory, they weren't the only one to contribute to the characterization, etc. Just look at Dragon Ball Super Goku and how much of a dumbass he is compared to his original self. Ryougi in MF is objectively contradicting to her KnK self, and her GO knock off is a complete mockery of her character. She suddenly admires humans and acts like a waifu. The real Shiki despises humans and only cares about Mikiya, while she doesn't give a shit about him dying in GO and thinks someone like Ritsuka is like him, even though this couldn't be more incorrect. Ritsuka is a generic self insert liked by everyone, while Mikiya is stated to not be liked or hated by anyone. He is in fact so normal and geared towards tranquility and stability that he is considered abnormal in his own way ironically, which is why he fundamentally the only one compatible with another extreme outlier that cannot fit with and despises most humans like Shiki. You'd know that if you have actually read the story. GO and MF Shiki only share their name and looks with the KnK version. The rest is a complete butchery of literally everything KnK went for. Mana literally destroys the peace that Shiki and Mikiya fought so hard to achieve, and both Shiki and Mikiya have precisely 0 logical way of even desiring to have one in the first place. Saying otherwise contradicts their core nature that act as the foundation of the story. From a story about outliers that find happiness in spite of their unique turns into supposed outliers conforming to society and wanking the idea muh hoping for a bright future, instead of enjoying their present. Furthermore, her family doesn't care for her beyond making her the head of it to run things. And she also doesn't care for them at all and leaves them, only for MF to make her come back and take over like they wanted, which is another out of character depiction. Shiki in MB barely went along with Mikiya insisting that she should at least talk with them and mantain some form of relationship, but taking over as the head is something else entirely. But yeah, totally the same characters lol.
There are not infinite timelines:
And the thread I linked completely destroys that argument, and you're not trying to provide a counter. You're just repeating what was already addressed.
That Type got its heart removed by losing to an immortal guy with no special abilities. This same Type before his heart got ripped out died from hitting the Earth too hard and took 60 million years to heal. Fodder bricks lmao.
It's not "Can", it's an objective fact that the Remake is an entirely different series with entirely different and retconned lore made to fit with Grand Order, which is too incompatible with the original Tsukihime. And Kara takes place in the same exact world as the Original Tsukihime, meaning that the one that appears in GO is from a rewritten unseen version of Kara made to fit with the modern canon. Which is why she is so ******* different and butchered compared to the original. Same with Mahoyo or Notes. GO is also canon to Extella, which is so much in contradiction with the original Extra that they had to rewrite it as Extella Zero just to fit it lol. The canons are undeniably split. If you do not like that, that's not my problem. You haven't addressed anything that wasn't covered by the thread already.
Ah yes, he treats them so much with care that he forgets basic lore about them, butchered Ryougi's personality the moment he got more freedom, rewrote Tsukihime to have an entirely different theme that contradicts what the Original stood for, etc. In fact, here is a thread explaining why Nasu's WoG is total nonsense and irrelevant. Keep in mind that, as Violatas pointed out already, even on here his WoG is considered unreliable and cannot be used due to him contradicting himself all the time. Here is the thread.
It's literally the same concept bro.
It's a primordial, archetypal power inherent into someone. A phenomena that shapes someone's existence that the person himself is not even aware of, unless, ofc, they experience an Origin awakening. Said power also allowed the Servants to raise their stats on command/in accordance to their willpower, just like Tohno and co. They even use the same exact black box imagery used in KnK:
This is all extremely specific and proves it's the same exact Origin awakening in KnK. It doesn't take a scientist to understand this. Now you may be asking, why is Ryougi "full" of Black boxes instead? Simple, her Origin is Akasha itself, the abstract nothing from which all phenomena are sourced from. Hence she is filled with infinite potential black boxes, which in turn mirrors her nature as an empty vessel with "maximum uses":
And again, notice how Ten Crowns is the archetypal power/origin inherent in all human beings, yet I already sent Araya explicitly stating that the Origin of humanity is nothing compared to the One. And of course, despite the MMC actively allowing Servants to wield the individual black boxes sourced from Shiki's essence without the negative consequences of an awakening, they would still get outright dissolved into nothingness should they try to use it a second time:
I never said that. You are getting into schizo territory now.
The fact that you took this statement from the 4th poll, but completely ignored the same exact profile stating that Ryougi combines the best of Tohno's Mystic Eyes and Nanaya's martial arts, with near identical performance with the latter's techniques is....Not that surprising:
Hell, Ryougi stated that the fighting styles she has with her knife and hand to hand combat is not her actual style she was trained in, but merely something she copied by observing around:
This is because the Ryougi's fighting style takes the fundamental foundation of all martial arts of remaking your thoughts and body for combat. By mirroring the concept of nothingness as a state of infinite transformation and potential, their martial arts can reconfigure their awareness and thoughts speficallly for combat, allowing for the creation of highly individualized and versatile fighting styles. While this can only be fully used with a sword, Ryougi said she still uses that concept as a premise for knife and H2H training, just not on the same level.
So the very same source you cited has knife Ryougi as physically capable as Nanaya by copying the Nanaya martial arts on the fly through observing them somewhere, and Ryougi herself has canonically killed Dead Apostle Ancestors. Neat. Demons are certainly fodder to her.
In fact, this quote is not necessarily referring to demons specifically, but rather to supernatural or magical entities in general. The term used in the Japanese text is "魔" (ma), which can be translated as "magic" or "demon" depending on the context. Given that the quote explicitly discusses Shiki's swordsmanship skills as an alternative to her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, it is clear that in this context, "魔" is referring to various types of supernatural or magical threats, including demons or specific magical entities.
The key point here is that Shiki's swordsmanship is highlighted as a viable means of confronting these supernatural forces, which aligns with the primary function of MEoDP. It would be illogical to suggest that enhanced physical capabilities alone would serve as an adequate substitute for MEoDP in dealing with such threats. Thus, the quote should be understood as merely saying that Shiki's Self Hypnosis has such skilled swordmanship that she can affect intangible and supernatural shit without needing her mystic eyes, on top of being able to see into the future. This is because Self Hypnosis is meant to bring out someone's true nature, depending on the strength of the mental suggestion:
And Shiki's family has the strongest form of SH, which outright transform the entire body and mind for combat, turning into a living weapon made entirely for killing:
So a suggestion this strong would certainly bring out Shiki's true nature, with said True Nature being that of an empty vessel meant to commune with the One, which corresponds to her body, and thus, her soul/origin. This is why Araya saw a glimpse of Void during that fight. Because Shiki's SH "empties" her mind and makes her one with her sword, allowing her to use Void's swordmanship skills, which is an aspect of the perfection of the One applied specifically to swordfighting. She connectes to an aspect of the One in the same way she does with MEoDP, but this time to achieve a perfect mindset for combat. She reaches Nothingness itself, further suggested when Araya regarded her stance as the strongest and most foundational:
Which is an obvious symbolism for Shiki in this state being connected to the source of all martial arts. Which is why she is able to attack supernatural things and see potential futures even when not using MEoDP. Her swordmanship has an existential weight that damages the true essence of something, regardless of their nature. Just like MEoDP represents the truth that all things are extensions of the One that it can end at anytime, Shiki's SH represents the truth that all things are unified under one force, which allows her swordmanship to cut away at any false distinction and align the opponent with the purity and simplicity of martial arts. That's also why Void's last Arc is a seemingly simple slash that however explicitly does not make use of MEoDP, with the move itself being outright named after Akasha itself: Her swordmanship skills embodies the essence of the One. That's why Araya said this:
As you can see, Araya included "mystic eyes" with the knife in talking about her normal fighting style being just a substitute. Proving her swordmanship is her true strength that can easily be just as potent as her MEoDP against supernatural things for the aforementioned reasons.
In short, not only your source just proves my point that she is comparable to Nanaya just in base form, but the part about Self Hypnosis Shiki absolutely doesn't say what you wished.
I already explained all of this buddy. Sorry, but Kiri is fodder to the big boys. Hell, he is 99% likely a Lio victim, since he naturally embodies the phenomena shaping the Nanaya fighting styles, to the point he replicated their iconic maneuvers in his normal state. And while he lacks their knowledge of assassination, he compensates for that with his predatory instincts and the fact that, once his Original personality took over, he became so much stronger, faster and accurate that he "surpassed the line of an actual animal". Yet Ryougi....Dismembered him while being severely injured and drugged, so fast that this new version of Lio died without even understanding what happened.
"Guiding principle" is also what Nanaya referred to himself as. With Nanaya being the personality of the origin. So you mentioning this only resulted in you backing yourself to a corner.
AE is another personality within Arcueid that is waiting for her to lose the will to live so she can take over. Almost like an origin personality. Almost like.... it's just that.
You're the one came in saying how I haven't read these series, which another user pointed out. Now you're crying that your shit talk backfired on you? Funny. Start acting like a rational human being, and I'll treat you as such. It's that simple.
you do realize that Elizabeth Bathory, out of all the servants, defeated the supposed “origin personality” out of all the servants. my favorite dragon idol now soloes knk.
anyway, by your logic, your “Old Type-Moon” didn’t have infinite timelines either, as zelretch has a “virtually” limitless ether cannon, and the fact that the mooncell recording all the possibilities of earth only amount to tens of millions of light years of light.
ill let syn respond to the rest.
also, it doesn’t say that, as syn explained.
It says something closer to “a further fate awaits her, the murder of a God”. Why would it be talking about arc… and not her other self who she has referred to as god quite a bit during the event.
also Roa and Archetype ended on a cliffhanger, doesn’t mean they’re equal.
By the way, the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception can’t kill it. It does not possess the concept of death, so you'll have to destroy it physically.
also… why would the murder of someone else be a fate that awaits ryougi? a fate awaiting you would be referencing that you are the one that is being affected.
