Your translation says the same thing and isn't more ambiguous at all.... Can you even read?
So Ryougi is going to fight herself? What? Do you hear how dumb you sound? Or are you twisting "the murder of a god" as in it meaning that Void is committing a murder against Archetype? Ignoring how hilariously desperate that is, that would still mean that Ryougi/Void's destiny was to kill Archetype. You lose either way.
The ending leaving it ambigous is already hyping them as being in the same league, with the guidebook very clearly confirming Archetype loses in your translation and the official one.
They both shit talked each other and were confident, so this is meaningless. You favoring Archetype's shit talk is arbitrary and shows your bias. Meanwhile Void is actually omniscient, so her sending Ryougi to slaughter her is actually credible, since she wouldn't have bothered to urge her if she couldn't win.
And even then, Archetype still acknowledged that Ryougi can still instill Death into her, despite being normally unable to die. This is supported by Void's statement in the Epilogue that Ryougi can kill all things with no exceptions, Araya noting that even his Sarira (Which belonged to someone that is actually entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth) cannot protect themselves from her eyes forever, and the novel asserting that everything that relies on Akasha for its existence can be ended by MEoDP, no matter what, with only Akasha itself being unable to be killed due to being a perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else but itself to exist.
Extreme coping. It's an official guidebook. Do you know how many franchises have guidebooks, encyclopedias, or supplementary materials produced by third parties that are still considered part of the canon? These materials are often used to expand on the lore and provide additional details that are consistent with the primary source material. That's because even if a guidebook is published by a third party, its content is often created in collaboration with the original creators or with their endorsement. This collaboration ensures that the information is accurate and consistent with the established lore, making them an extension of the official narrative. Even if the physical production is handled by a third party, the content is typically reviewed by the original creators. The guidebook is saying Ryougi killed Archetype because it's true.
This is baseless extrapolation. He planned to not kill her initially but she defeated him effortlessly and cut him into pieces, according to Archetype. And you can see Ryougi isn't exhausted at all after fighting him and is ready to fight Archetype, meaning Tohno provided no legitimate challenge.
Except loss quotes aren't canon, so this is irrelevant. Unless you think Ries and Ciel are stronger than Archetype simply because they have unique win quotes if you were to lose against them in her route. Those aren't alternate outcomes or dead ends. Those are just random win quotes. Ryougi is not supposed to lose to Tohno in that timeline.
And even then "Finally made her leave" sounds like he just fought her enough until she got bored and left. Doesn't even sound like an actual victory. So no, nothing in that scene implies Tohno is above Ryougi lol, even if we ignore the fact that it's non-canon in the first place.
Funny, you talk about knowing KnK, yet you mention those shitty anime adaptions. This already shows you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I've read the actual novel in all the translations, translated it with A.I. and so on.
It doesn't matter if Tohno didn't intend to kill her. He got cut down, with Ryougi showing no signs of exhaustion and canonically killed someone far above him (Archetype). Not to mention there are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his Nanaya instincts briefly taking over while being close to death, and this has happened against actual people he cared about like Yumizuka, Akiha, Sion etc.
Because....Ryougi is stronger than Nrvnqsr? Hence she defeated him? Holy shit! Basic logical deduction?
This is a really boring copy and paste NPC argument dude. MEoDP doesn't hard-counter Nrvnqsr. It allows them to one-shot him IF they get past his hordes and are able to outperform him in combat.
Shiki Tohno lost twice to Nrvnqsr, both in the hotel and their fight in the park until Nanaya came out. Even in MB, Tohno struggled massively to land a hit on Nrvnqsr despite having Sion's help, with him only finding an opening when his Tatari could not materialize anymore and was fading away. So much for MEoDP hard-countering him. MEoDP doesn't do shit if you get ovewhelmed from all sides by his beasts that you must hit the lines of. What a stupid argument and one that isn't original.
You forgot the hundreds upon hundreds of beasts that he can swarm people with on all sides, each with their own capabilities and form of movements. And that they all share vision with each other meaning you can't even surprise attack him.
You gain MEoDP by having your origin awakened and almost completely dying, resulting in your mind reaching death aka Akasha. This is shown by both Shiki's obtaining their MEoDP through near-death experiences that put them in a coma.
MEoDP is tied to their origin. If it wasn't, then any random person that had a near-death experience would have MEoDP, but that clearly isn't the case. It's even stated that MEoDP is one of "this body called Ryougi Shiki"'s powers, which is obviously referring to her body/Void Shiki and thus the personality of the Origin:
So what now? Are you going to say MEoDP is an Origin power for Ryougi but magically not for Tohno? Even though they unlocked them in the same exact manner and they both have descriptions of being innate abilities from within their bodies, with bodies often being used in the context of describing the soul/origin, which in turn dictates a person's traits and abilities? Like, are you capable of connecting the dots here? Or do I need to hold your hand and spell everything in big bold letters?
Nanaya's origin is hinted at in Red Demon God even. Kiri pursued death, but he could not reach it because he wasn't innately born with it. Someone born broken (hinting at Nanaya) would be required to fight Kouma.
Maybe if you had knowledge of any of these series you talk about, you'd know that Nanaya as a Tatari is different under Wallachia because Wallachia is directly influencing his personality:
As for your dumb little Akiha scan, he's referring to Akiha enjoying it to the extent that she isn't focused at all and got stomped immediately. Nanaya enjoys killing. It's his instinct. He even says that he is the guiding principle that Tohno refuses to use:
The difference is that Nanaya is cold and calculating in combat still. He doesn't get giddy over the thought of killing someone and making clumsy mistakes as a result. The only mistake he made was against Akiha if he waits too long to kill her, but that was a result of being overly cautious, which is the opposite of being super aggresive because you want to kill someone and not thinking things though at all.
Dear god.....You either have no idea what psycopathy is or you haven't read Tsukihime.
Actually, you definitely haven't read Tsukihime or any of these series. That much is a given. Gonna say you also don't undestand what psychopathy is either most likely, given your track record on everything.
His origin is death. It awakened once he nearly died and went into a coma, which is treated as a death of sorts in Type-Moon.
Except people can resist their origin impulses. Just look at Ryougi. Lio couldn't because his will was too weak.
Once again, you're proving you haven't read any of these series.
Oh wow, it's almost like they're the same person and are sharing the experience. And it's almost like Shiki wouldn't know he has an alternate personality or what an origin even is. Hell, the dude doesn't even know his own ******* real last name at this point in the story.
But you know, if you read Tsukihime, you'd know all that.
One is a natural killer due to their origin in this case. Clearly Kiri is a natural killer in the mundane sense. He murdered plenty of people and is the greatest assassin of his clan at the time. But in this context, one is only truly a natural killer if their origin is related to such things and gives them those natural inclinations and talents that are on a whole other level.
You do know that people calling Tohno's origin personality "Nanaya" is just a convenient naming to distinguish the two, right? SHIKI and Kouma for instance, also called Tohno Nanaya, simply because it's his real last name. You're getting too hooked on people just using their preferred naming choices for him.
Yeah, almost like they are born that way due to their origin. You are just proving my point....You good bro?
Because of their origins, which is why Kiri, who pursues death, can never match up to them even at their weakest, despite training his entire life.
I love how you leave out context.
That opening your scans hyped? You left out the part where the attack didn't kill Kouma and he proceeded to smash the shocked Kiri's skull in:
Keep in mind by the way, this is a Kouma with no training, unlike later when he knows martial arts. This Kouma also had no true will yet, until he killed Kiri, which ignited his passion and made him stronger as a result:
Kouma was only in his base form too when fighting Kiri, as he didn't have access to his Crimson Red Vermillion state yet.
At best, he would've gotten slightly rusty. But he would still be in that same league of being the greatest assassin of his clan. And despite that he died to a completely untrained raging bull that got insanely more powerful later on once he actually gained a true will, accessed his powers more, and started training himself.
What do you mean "As I've explained before"? This is a fresh account and these are your first posts to me are they not? I think you just accidentally outed yourself as an alt account.
Anyways, you added no argument here. You just made baseless assertions. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And I've already destroyed anyone previously with their dumb claims in regards to Araya. It's also funny you said that Araya needed to "train" his abilities, when it's explicitly stated that he mastered his bounded fields by complete accident, without even being aware of what they were initially. He just happened to perfect them due to studying the nature of the soul and recording death overtime, which caused the most basic form of his Origin powers to manifest and allow him to exert his will and understanding of reality up until that point on the external world. Later on, when he is in his realm and thus free from the regulation enacted by Gaia or the Counterforce, he learned how to manipulate reality to the point he made an infinite sized dimension and created a set of abstract rules to define its workings. Now that he is actually in Akasha and can come into contact with the abstract side of his Origin and its fundamental nature? R.I.P. Arcuied and anyone who isn't Ryougi.
It's funny you say this, because you have confirmed hundreds of times now that you have not read any of these series. You seem to just be skimming wikis and getting random scans from Discord buddies that also have never read these series and have no comprehension regardless.
Your own scans don't say that at all. Do you even read the pictures your Discord friends send you?
It says Kiri taught him the basics and Shiki TRIED to copy what he say Kiri doing. Not only did it say "tried", meaning he may have not been successful at all, but we don't even know what he saw Kiri doing in the first place. You're assuming he saw all of Kiri's techniques and copied them perfectly. Wank assumptions not implied anywhere. Hell, the fact it said he "TRIED" to copy Kiri implies that he failed, otherwise they would've said he just copied Kiri.
Not saying much, considering there are degrees of proficiency at which one can preform techniques. Again, the fact it said Shiki "tried" to copy Kiri heavily implies he wasn't able to, at least not fully by any means.
Your scan doesn't support your argument at all. It's never a good idea to just copy and paste scans people send you without actually reading their contents.
So first thing, Shiki was in a Servant container in GO, which would limit her.
Type-Moon has entirely separate canons. Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella contradict countless of old pieces of lore completely.
Void Shiki's character is completely rectonned.
Hell, Ryougi's character was rectonned in Future Gospel and Fate/GO.
Quantum timelocks contradict the infinite timelines described in FSN.
Types were rectonned to be complete fodder.
Notes cannot exist in Modern TM currently due to the pruning of dead-end worlds.
All of Extra's lore was rewritten in Extella.
Unified Language doesn't exist in GO.
The Root was rectonned to be a physical dimension.
The Second Magic was rectonned in the Tsukihime Remake side materials.
The First Magic was rectonned in GO.
The Fifth Magic was rectonned in GO.
The Tsukihime Remake's entire existence and purpose being to replace the original to fit with modern lore.
There's a
thread on Comicvine made by a friend of mine that completely destroys the notion that Type-Moon is one singular canon. I'd even go as far as to say that all the doujin lore from the old series was trying to be thrown out once Fate came around, which is also explained in that thread. Fate lore even in the old days was always trying to throw out the original lore of the doujin works to some degree to the point Fate is really its own thing.
GO Ryougi, along with nearly all of the old characters are weird butchered fanfic-tier versions of their original selves.
In fact, old canon Ryougi is
explicitly massively above Servants: Her Origin is Nothingness/Akasha. This makes Ryougi's Soul connected to Akasha itself, allowing her to discern fundamental truths about existence and have the potential to use every imaginable power if she gains knowledge of it. In fact, Touko outright described her body as being full of black boxes:
With black boxes referring to Origins/Souls, representing abstract phenomena shaping existence and creation. A single one of these black boxes is so powerful that it automatically obliterates even beings like Servants passively. Extra Servants, mind you, who have feats above normal ones:
With Araya stating that the Origin of Humanity (The same one that powers BB and required Hakuno's Servants to wield the power of their Origin to battle) is nothing compared to what he's seeking (The One):
And unlike with Tsukihime, I'm afraid you have no conceivable way of denying that these are the same exact Origin awakenings spoken of in KnK, due to them using the same exact terms and even the black box imagery. With Ryougi's body being the source of those black boxes acting as individual Origins, reflecting Akasha being the source of all phenomena. Result: Servants literally gets disintegrated by a fraction of Ryougi's power and anything else shown by Miss waifu butchered version of Shiki Ryougi in GO is utterly irrelevant.
Which is a clear hyperbole, considering the very same fight as her moving out of Asagami's sight in an instant, allowing her to dodge her sight-based distortions, which is a superhuman level of speed. Then we have her outright moving so fast she made an afterimage, which is massively faster than the very obvious hyperbole you cherrypicked:
Oh, here is her dismembering Lio faster than he could comprehend:
Same Lio explicitly stated to move faster than the eye can see:
And here is Ryougi explicitly moving at superhuman/invisible speeds after getting more serious against his weaker form:
So no. 3 meters in 10 seconds, if taken literally, is entirely inconsistent with the FTE speed Shiki has demonstrated in combat when serious. But we know this is hyperbole anyways, as the novel and other older TM works use seconds as hyperboles very often. Like Touko's projected creature taking "less than 10 seconds" to reach Alba, which is a strange thing to say in a high speed scenario, among other examples, like Mahoyo stating that Beowulf would need half a second to reach Soujuurou and another half a second to strike him, but then says he took a full second to even reach Soujuurou. It also mentions that Soujuurou attacked within a microsecond, yet the entire exchange, consisting of three blows, took three seconds. In this passage, the phrase "her speed was incredible" suggests that the three-second measurement is hyperbolic as well, especially since it seems below the capability of peak human sprinters. This discrepancy shows that the narration often uses "seconds" for dramatic effect rather than precise measurement. It was mostly used to emphasize the instantaneous nature of Asagami's abilities.
Load of bullshit. Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards.
LMAO, I would have never thought I'd see ******* Kirie of all people wanked against Ryougi. Ryougi no-sold her mental suggestions and one shotted her with MEoDP. That's literally it, her arm allowed Ryougi to pull her in close to her so she could stab her, but Kirie on her own couldn't do shit against Ryougi. Oh, and you guessed it: Kirie is another Origin awakened character. So she is an outlier. You'd know that if you actually read the story, as Araya required individuals with an Origin sharing traits with Shiki's to make her realize her true nature and make it harder for her to resist her impulses, causing Void Shiki to come out and take over. Araya's plan was initially to simply draw Void out. He tried this by starting with Lio and awakening his own Origin of consumption, but he failed because he realized he needed people that weren't exponentially different from Shiki.
Kiri? The guy who was threatened by artillery and lost to a raging brick that had no combat skill and was nowhere near his prime? What a silly claim.
No, Ciel said she took something like an origin awakening to an "overwhelming level". Archetype denied the "overwhelming level" part. The guidebook confirms that Archetype is the "guiding principle" inside of Arcueid, which is shaped after TM's essence:
Your opinions are objectively wrong. Opinions always fall short against facts.
You should apologize for your terrible arguments and jumping into a debate about series you have zero knowledge of and are just collecting random scans you have zero understanding of. Actually, here's some advice for you:
Actually read the series you're debating so heavily.
Take some literary courses to make sure your reading comprehension is adequate, because if it isn't, you'll never grasp anything you read.
Don't rely on random Discord friends that also have zero knowledge to send you scans that you blindly trust are legitimate. And if you must, actually read the scans they send you, since a chunk of them either go against what you're saying or aren't even talking about the same subject as you are.
Try to get a handle on your personal preferences to suppress emotional biases so you can debate objectively.
And lastly, being in Marshadow's fanfic club will never expand your understanding of the franchise. You're both two new users regurgitating his talking points, with Wankbreaker copy and pasting entire posts from him even with his signature broken Discord links he always uses, which was a dead giveaway. And then he admitted to being in the same server as him on accident to top it all off.
