Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[LehenDuo]

All in all... genuinely, I do not think you've read Tsukihime given everything you've said so far, but this is my opinion, so we'll see.

You get this feeliing with a lot of posts here.

 

[Synnian]

You get this feeliing with a lot of posts here.

Had to genuinely panick and edit a few things because I realized a few things I copy-pasted flat out did not show up, especially with the Kiri-Kouma thing lol

Also find it incredibly funny how people are genuinely insisting Araya and Ryougi are god-tiers, which... lol

 

[Wankbreaker]

You get this feeliing with a lot of posts here.

people saying void shiki is omnipotent haven’t read knk for sure, or only read cokesaktos shitty tl.

But regardless i had quite a bit to say about that, syn pretty much handled it perfectly though

 

[LehenDuo]

people saying void shiki is omnipotent haven’t read knk for sure, or only read cokesaktos shitty tl.

But regardless i had quite a bit to say about that, syn pretty much handled it perfectly though

Unfortunately, I think most people have only read cokesato's TL and were never told it's shit.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Unfortunately, I think most people have only read cokesato's TL and were never told it's shit.

yea, one glaring issue is that in the Japanese version, void uses a particle that means an uncertain guess without any proof when referring to her powers. the text even says right after that she has an uncertain look in her eyes, and this is pretty supported by her FGO profile.

like, if I guessed that I could blow up a planet, usually that would be taken under more scrutiny,right?

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Unfortunately, I think most people have only read cokesato's TL and were never told it's shit.

Dude Hyper never even used Koke's translations stop coping the days of hand waving everything due to coke's translation crap is over as everything but the second half of five and seven has a good translation. Sorry if i sounded harsh but I wanted to clear this up

 

[Synnian]

people saying void shiki is omnipotent haven’t read knk for sure, or only read cokesaktos shitty tl.

But regardless i had quite a bit to say about that, syn pretty much handled it perfectly though

If I may ask, is there anything you'd want to add? There's stuff I didn't mention since I didn't want to make things THAT long (though... look how that turned out, lol), and there's a bunch of unrelated stuff that I've HEARD about the poster in question, yet didn't want to bring up due to being irrelevant to that specific post

Would be cool to see other people's opinions and takes!!

 

[HyperZero95]

No, no she didn't.

The actual JP Raw of the thing you're posting makes it ambiguous at best. It's a translation error. What it should ACTUALLY be should be something along the lines of this:

Your translation says the same thing and isn't more ambiguous at all.... Can you even read?

While that seems to be the same, if you had actually read the route you're speaking of, Void Shiki is referred to as a "god".

So Ryougi is going to fight herself? What? Do you hear how dumb you sound? Or are you twisting "the murder of a god" as in it meaning that Void is committing a murder against Archetype? Ignoring how hilariously desperate that is, that would still mean that Ryougi/Void's destiny was to kill Archetype. You lose either way.

The actual cutscene itself is meant to be left ambiguous, and the actual original version of the guidebook you're basing your argument off of is following it's rules.

The ending leaving it ambigous is already hyping them as being in the same league, with the guidebook very clearly confirming Archetype loses in your translation and the official one.

with the latter persona actually openly making fun of what a hopeless situation she's in.

They both shit talked each other and were confident, so this is meaningless. You favoring Archetype's shit talk is arbitrary and shows your bias. Meanwhile Void is actually omniscient, so her sending Ryougi to slaughter her is actually credible, since she wouldn't have bothered to urge her if she couldn't win.

And even then, Archetype still acknowledged that Ryougi can still instill Death into her, despite being normally unable to die. This is supported by Void's statement in the Epilogue that Ryougi can kill all things with no exceptions, Araya noting that even his Sarira (Which belonged to someone that is actually entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth) cannot protect themselves from her eyes forever, and the novel asserting that everything that relies on Akasha for its existence can be ended by MEoDP, no matter what, with only Akasha itself being unable to be killed due to being a perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else but itself to exist.

Overall, your argument is heavily banking off of a statement made by a third-party company,

Extreme coping. It's an official guidebook. Do you know how many franchises have guidebooks, encyclopedias, or supplementary materials produced by third parties that are still considered part of the canon? These materials are often used to expand on the lore and provide additional details that are consistent with the primary source material. That's because even if a guidebook is published by a third party, its content is often created in collaboration with the original creators or with their endorsement. This collaboration ensures that the information is accurate and consistent with the established lore, making them an extension of the official narrative. Even if the physical production is handled by a third party, the content is typically reviewed by the original creators. The guidebook is saying Ryougi killed Archetype because it's true.

Ryougi was openly written to be weaker than Tohno Shiki, much less Nanaya Shiki, with the former needing to be explicitly written to be holding back in order for the writer to give Ryougi Shiki a plausible chance at beating the character in the first place.

This is baseless extrapolation. He planned to not kill her initially but she defeated him effortlessly and cut him into pieces, according to Archetype. And you can see Ryougi isn't exhausted at all after fighting him and is ready to fight Archetype, meaning Tohno provided no legitimate challenge.

There's even unique dialogue if the player loses the fight in general, confirming that Tohno was actively NOT trying to harm Ryougi in any capacity.

Except loss quotes aren't canon, so this is irrelevant. Unless you think Ries and Ciel are stronger than Archetype simply because they have unique win quotes if you were to lose against them in her route. Those aren't alternate outcomes or dead ends. Those are just random win quotes. Ryougi is not supposed to lose to Tohno in that timeline.
And even then "Finally made her leave" sounds like he just fought her enough until she got bored and left. Doesn't even sound like an actual victory. So no, nothing in that scene implies Tohno is above Ryougi lol, even if we ignore the fact that it's non-canon in the first place.

If you've actually seen Kara no Kyoukai, you'd know there's an entire movie dedicated to pointing out how big of a nerd "not wanting to kill something" is for people like both Shikis, whose fighting styles are explicitly lethal in nature.

Funny, you talk about knowing KnK, yet you mention those shitty anime adaptions. This already shows you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I've read the actual novel in all the translations, translated it with A.I. and so on.

It doesn't matter if Tohno didn't intend to kill her. He got cut down, with Ryougi showing no signs of exhaustion and canonically killed someone far above him (Archetype). Not to mention there are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his Nanaya instincts briefly taking over while being close to death, and this has happened against actual people he cared about like Yumizuka, Akiha, Sion etc.

While this is undeniably true, you fail to consider... why such a thing would be possible?

Because....Ryougi is stronger than Nrvnqsr? Hence she defeated him? Holy shit! Basic logical deduction?

Both Shiki's have the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, which explicitly are the hard-counter to Nero Chaos' abilities.

This is a really boring copy and paste NPC argument dude. MEoDP doesn't hard-counter Nrvnqsr. It allows them to one-shot him IF they get past his hordes and are able to outperform him in combat.
Shiki Tohno lost twice to Nrvnqsr, both in the hotel and their fight in the park until Nanaya came out. Even in MB, Tohno struggled massively to land a hit on Nrvnqsr despite having Sion's help, with him only finding an opening when his Tatari could not materialize anymore and was fading away. So much for MEoDP hard-countering him. MEoDP doesn't do shit if you get ovewhelmed from all sides by his beasts that you must hit the lines of. What a stupid argument and one that isn't original.

Nero's main trait is durability, stamina, and endurance.

You forgot the hundreds upon hundreds of beasts that he can swarm people with on all sides, each with their own capabilities and form of movements. And that they all share vision with each other meaning you can't even surprise attack him.

This is blatantly just.... not true? Tohno Shiki has not awakened his origin, and absolutely nothing remotely implies that. Nanaya Shiki is constantly said to be an "extremely gentle child" who didn't want to hurt anyone.

You gain MEoDP by having your origin awakened and almost completely dying, resulting in your mind reaching death aka Akasha. This is shown by both Shiki's obtaining their MEoDP through near-death experiences that put them in a coma.

MEoDP is tied to their origin. If it wasn't, then any random person that had a near-death experience would have MEoDP, but that clearly isn't the case. It's even stated that MEoDP is one of "this body called Ryougi Shiki"'s powers, which is obviously referring to her body/Void Shiki and thus the personality of the Origin:

Eyes of Direct Death is only one aspect of the powers of this body called "Ryougi Shiki".- Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Others], p.035-036.

So what now? Are you going to say MEoDP is an Origin power for Ryougi but magically not for Tohno? Even though they unlocked them in the same exact manner and they both have descriptions of being innate abilities from within their bodies, with bodies often being used in the context of describing the soul/origin, which in turn dictates a person's traits and abilities? Like, are you capable of connecting the dots here? Or do I need to hold your hand and spell everything in big bold letters?

Nanaya's origin is hinted at in Red Demon God even. Kiri pursued death, but he could not reach it because he wasn't innately born with it. Someone born broken (hinting at Nanaya) would be required to fight Kouma.

The ACTUAL Nanaya we see throughout the story shows signs of being NOTHING like TATARI or Dreamscape Nanaya: The most important one, is that he has absolute no interest or desire in killing people.

Maybe if you had knowledge of any of these series you talk about, you'd know that Nanaya as a Tatari is different under Wallachia because Wallachia is directly influencing his personality:

"In Melty Blood, Nanaya Shiki appears as Tohno Shiki’s anxieties given form. He uses the Nanaya martial arts that Shiki should have learned, but unlike Shiki he does not possess the mystic eyes of death perception. According to Miyako, he is her “wild big brother.” Also, perhaps it is due to Wallachia’s influence, but he is prone to somewhat theatrical elocution." - Tsukihime Dokuhan Plus Period

As for your dumb little Akiha scan, he's referring to Akiha enjoying it to the extent that she isn't focused at all and got stomped immediately. Nanaya enjoys killing. It's his instinct. He even says that he is the guiding principle that Tohno refuses to use:

The difference is that Nanaya is cold and calculating in combat still. He doesn't get giddy over the thought of killing someone and making clumsy mistakes as a result. The only mistake he made was against Akiha if he waits too long to kill her, but that was a result of being overly cautious, which is the opposite of being super aggresive because you want to kill someone and not thinking things though at all.

What you're referring to an "origin awakening" is... literally nothing? Tohno Shiki is a psychopath,

Dear god.....You either have no idea what psycopathy is or you haven't read Tsukihime.

Actually, you definitely haven't read Tsukihime or any of these series. That much is a given. Gonna say you also don't undestand what psychopathy is either most likely, given your track record on everything.

someone who has to deal with his own urges for murder. You can say this is his Origin, but it was not awakened.

His origin is death. It awakened once he nearly died and went into a coma, which is treated as a death of sorts in Type-Moon.

If it was, then he would CONSTANTLY be trying to kill people, like we see with Lio (someone with a violent Origin). Even if you want to say his Origin is "death" in the first place... that's headcanon.

Except people can resist their origin impulses. Just look at Ryougi. Lio couldn't because his will was too weak.

Once again, you're proving you haven't read any of these series.

Nanaya Shiki even comments during the 17 pieces scene, outright saying "hey, this is TOHNO SHIKI doing this, I don't understand why he's doing this."

Oh wow, it's almost like they're the same person and are sharing the experience. And it's almost like Shiki wouldn't know he has an alternate personality or what an origin even is. Hell, the dude doesn't even know his own ******* real last name at this point in the story.

But you know, if you read Tsukihime, you'd know all that.

These are not Origins. Not even close. Instead, what they comment on, is the concept of "natural killers" and "unnatural killers"

One is a natural killer due to their origin in this case. Clearly Kiri is a natural killer in the mundane sense. He murdered plenty of people and is the greatest assassin of his clan at the time. But in this context, one is only truly a natural killer if their origin is related to such things and gives them those natural inclinations and talents that are on a whole other level.

TATARI even comments on this himself, calling Tohno Shiki it directly.

You do know that people calling Tohno's origin personality "Nanaya" is just a convenient naming to distinguish the two, right? SHIKI and Kouma for instance, also called Tohno Nanaya, simply because it's his real last name. You're getting too hooked on people just using their preferred naming choices for him.

They are beings who are born 'broken'. They naturally have the ability to kill with immense skill, beyond what normal people can do. This is arguably the most explicit thing about both characters, and I'm genuinely surprised you haven't picked up on it. Take Arcueid's description, matching the same thing TATARI and Kiri talk about:

Yeah, almost like they are born that way due to their origin. You are just proving my point....You good bro?

People like Kishima and Shiki, are born 'broken'. Natural Killers, beyond normal people who have to learn how to kill.

Because of their origins, which is why Kiri, who pursues death, can never match up to them even at their weakest, despite training his entire life.

this doesn't make people with Origins awakened better than people without Origins awakened.

I love how you leave out context.
That opening your scans hyped? You left out the part where the attack didn't kill Kouma and he proceeded to smash the shocked Kiri's skull in:

Keep in mind by the way, this is a Kouma with no training, unlike later when he knows martial arts. This Kouma also had no true will yet, until he killed Kiri, which ignited his passion and made him stronger as a result:

Though the Kishima are one of the numerous Tohno branch families, they have long since fallen into decline. As far as Kouma was concerned, it would have been fine if he just quietly faded into obscurity in his forest den, letting the line die out for good. However, he was called out by Tohno Makihisa to be the Tohno’s trump card against the Nanaya, a role which he fulfilled perfectly. The Nanaya family was completely wiped out. - MB Act Cadenza PS2 Manual


…However, just before dying, he was able to engrave a “sense of being alive” into Kishima Kouma, who up until then had lacked any sort of human emotions. - Tsukihime Plus Period

Kouma was only in his base form too when fighting Kiri, as he didn't have access to his Crimson Red Vermillion state yet.

However, once again, this is NOT an instant win for people born like this. Red Demon God makes this even more explicit, with it all but saying that Kiri was outright more powerful than Kouma was, but just severely weakened.

At best, he would've gotten slightly rusty. But he would still be in that same league of being the greatest assassin of his clan. And despite that he died to a completely untrained raging bull that got insanely more powerful later on once he actually gained a true will, accessed his powers more, and started training himself.

As I've already explained before, no. Araya is not a "master of death", or anything around the sort. He had to develop and train his abilities, and to be blunt, nothing even implies that he's anywhere near Kouma or Tohno. However, I do want to question this:

What do you mean "As I've explained before"? This is a fresh account and these are your first posts to me are they not? I think you just accidentally outed yourself as an alt account.
Anyways, you added no argument here. You just made baseless assertions. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And I've already destroyed anyone previously with their dumb claims in regards to Araya. It's also funny you said that Araya needed to "train" his abilities, when it's explicitly stated that he mastered his bounded fields by complete accident, without even being aware of what they were initially. He just happened to perfect them due to studying the nature of the soul and recording death overtime, which caused the most basic form of his Origin powers to manifest and allow him to exert his will and understanding of reality up until that point on the external world. Later on, when he is in his realm and thus free from the regulation enacted by Gaia or the Counterforce, he learned how to manipulate reality to the point he made an infinite sized dimension and created a set of abstract rules to define its workings. Now that he is actually in Akasha and can come into contact with the abstract side of his Origin and its fundamental nature? R.I.P. Arcuied and anyone who isn't Ryougi.

While, again, I genuinely may need to ask if you've ever read the story you're talking about?

It's funny you say this, because you have confirmed hundreds of times now that you have not read any of these series. You seem to just be skimming wikis and getting random scans from Discord buddies that also have never read these series and have no comprehension regardless.

Because Shiki explicitly has everything the Nanaya Clan has - in fact, he has MORE than that, given what's implied.

Your own scans don't say that at all. Do you even read the pictures your Discord friends send you?

It says Kiri taught him the basics and Shiki TRIED to copy what he say Kiri doing. Not only did it say "tried", meaning he may have not been successful at all, but we don't even know what he saw Kiri doing in the first place. You're assuming he saw all of Kiri's techniques and copied them perfectly. Wank assumptions not implied anywhere. Hell, the fact it said he "TRIED" to copy Kiri implies that he failed, otherwise they would've said he just copied Kiri.

He even openly has their ultimate technique.

Not saying much, considering there are degrees of proficiency at which one can preform techniques. Again, the fact it said Shiki "tried" to copy Kiri heavily implies he wasn't able to, at least not fully by any means.

While while true and valid, I'm not sure why you would bother explaining this? This is true for ALL Nanaya, not just Shiki.

Your scan doesn't support your argument at all. It's never a good idea to just copy and paste scans people send you without actually reading their contents.

As I've said before: No, this is not "an effect of origin awakening", nor are they even "absurdly powerful in comparison to others". Ryougi in Fate/Grand Order openly JUMPED a Pre-Camelot Mash and barely was able to give her the equivalent of a papercut, only barely touching her armor. This would make her... starving refugee level, considering she had trouble with Saruhan during Camelot before her massive power-amps.

So first thing, Shiki was in a Servant container in GO, which would limit her.

Type-Moon has entirely separate canons. Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella contradict countless of old pieces of lore completely.

Void Shiki's character is completely rectonned.

Hell, Ryougi's character was rectonned in Future Gospel and Fate/GO.

Quantum timelocks contradict the infinite timelines described in FSN.

Types were rectonned to be complete fodder.

Notes cannot exist in Modern TM currently due to the pruning of dead-end worlds.

All of Extra's lore was rewritten in Extella.

Unified Language doesn't exist in GO.

The Root was rectonned to be a physical dimension.

The Second Magic was rectonned in the Tsukihime Remake side materials.

The First Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Fifth Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Tsukihime Remake's entire existence and purpose being to replace the original to fit with modern lore.

There's a thread on Comicvine made by a friend of mine that completely destroys the notion that Type-Moon is one singular canon. I'd even go as far as to say that all the doujin lore from the old series was trying to be thrown out once Fate came around, which is also explained in that thread. Fate lore even in the old days was always trying to throw out the original lore of the doujin works to some degree to the point Fate is really its own thing.

GO Ryougi, along with nearly all of the old characters are weird butchered fanfic-tier versions of their original selves.

In fact, old canon Ryougi is explicitly massively above Servants: Her Origin is Nothingness/Akasha. This makes Ryougi's Soul connected to Akasha itself, allowing her to discern fundamental truths about existence and have the potential to use every imaginable power if she gains knowledge of it. In fact, Touko outright described her body as being full of black boxes:

"Her body is full of black boxes so I can't even make anything similar." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

With black boxes referring to Origins/Souls, representing abstract phenomena shaping existence and creation. A single one of these black boxes is so powerful that it automatically obliterates even beings like Servants passively. Extra Servants, mind you, who have feats above normal ones:


With Araya stating that the Origin of Humanity (The same one that powers BB and required Hakuno's Servants to wield the power of their Origin to battle) is nothing compared to what he's seeking (The One):

It's true that I was only pursuing the number of deaths. I was certain that if I experienced tens of thousands of different deaths among different people, I would be able to find a spiritual diffusion that led to the origin. However, with just that alone, I cannot reach the origin. The only thing that you can come close to with that is humanity's 'origin'. You cannot reach the origin of that totality known as the dominant organism. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

And unlike with Tsukihime, I'm afraid you have no conceivable way of denying that these are the same exact Origin awakenings spoken of in KnK, due to them using the same exact terms and even the black box imagery. With Ryougi's body being the source of those black boxes acting as individual Origins, reflecting Akasha being the source of all phenomena. Result: Servants literally gets disintegrated by a fraction of Ryougi's power and anything else shown by Miss waifu butchered version of Shiki Ryougi in GO is utterly irrelevant.

Ironically, this stays consistent with KnK, with Knife Ryougi being HYPED UP by the ability to travel... three meters per second in book three.

Which is a clear hyperbole, considering the very same fight as her moving out of Asagami's sight in an instant, allowing her to dodge her sight-based distortions, which is a superhuman level of speed. Then we have her outright moving so fast she made an afterimage, which is massively faster than the very obvious hyperbole you cherrypicked:

If Shiki left an afterimage of a white kimono in the darkness of the night as she ran, the man melted into the night as he approached his prey. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Oh, here is her dismembering Lio faster than he could comprehend:

-----She kept her eyes on the nearing enemy.

Things are much simpler this way.

Like a bird leaves the surface of a pond.

It only took a moment for it to end.

The end came quickly.

Shirazumi Lio's extended hand was severed in a flash.

She hacked off the enemy's legs, and planted the dagger into the chest of

Shirazumi Lio's floating body, slamming him hard onto the ground.

The knife pierced his heart like a tombstone.

Wah.

He exhaled, and everything was over.

Shirazumi Lio's expression abruptly stopped.

Without even realizing the amazing speed he had been killed at.

The knife stood on Lio's chest like a headstone.

She remained still, clutching the weapon with both hands.

Slanted sunlight peeked in through the windows.

Shone on by a grey light, like a priest sends off a deceased person.

Shirazumi's corpse did not bleed. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 7

Same Lio explicitly stated to move faster than the eye can see:

He sped around at a speed untraceable by the eyes - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 7

And here is Ryougi explicitly moving at superhuman/invisible speeds after getting more serious against his weaker form:

"Hahahaha!" The serial killer laughed. Overcome with amusement, he simultaneously

───had his arm severed in an instant by the sudden appearance of Shiki Ryogi.

"Who───"

"────eh?"

Invisible.

The act of Shiki Ryogi, expressionless, her eyes shining blue, was imperceptible to the serial killer.

The movements of a carnivorous predator hunting its prey were too swift for human vision to grasp. Even with the same level of dynamic vision as a killer, the movements of Shiki Ryogi remained elusive.

The knife that severed the serial killer's arm swiftly flipped towards his neck without mercy.

"────Who are you going to kill next?"

"Guh────!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 7

So no. 3 meters in 10 seconds, if taken literally, is entirely inconsistent with the FTE speed Shiki has demonstrated in combat when serious. But we know this is hyperbole anyways, as the novel and other older TM works use seconds as hyperboles very often. Like Touko's projected creature taking "less than 10 seconds" to reach Alba, which is a strange thing to say in a high speed scenario, among other examples, like Mahoyo stating that Beowulf would need half a second to reach Soujuurou and another half a second to strike him, but then says he took a full second to even reach Soujuurou. It also mentions that Soujuurou attacked within a microsecond, yet the entire exchange, consisting of three blows, took three seconds. In this passage, the phrase "her speed was incredible" suggests that the three-second measurement is hyperbolic as well, especially since it seems below the capability of peak human sprinters. This discrepancy shows that the narration often uses "seconds" for dramatic effect rather than precise measurement. It was mostly used to emphasize the instantaneous nature of Asagami's abilities.

Even then, she's STILL openly weaker than Fujino, a *** branch family member of the Demon Hunter Organization, having to rely on an environmental advantage in order to beat her. This trend continues with other fights with DHO members, like Kirie Fujou, inwhich Ryougi has to rely on third-party assistance via the mechanical arm that Touko made for her.

Load of bullshit. Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards.

LMAO, I would have never thought I'd see ******* Kirie of all people wanked against Ryougi. Ryougi no-sold her mental suggestions and one shotted her with MEoDP. That's literally it, her arm allowed Ryougi to pull her in close to her so she could stab her, but Kirie on her own couldn't do shit against Ryougi. Oh, and you guessed it: Kirie is another Origin awakened character. So she is an outlier. You'd know that if you actually read the story, as Araya required individuals with an Origin sharing traits with Shiki's to make her realize her true nature and make it harder for her to resist her impulses, causing Void Shiki to come out and take over. Araya's plan was initially to simply draw Void out. He tried this by starting with Lio and awakening his own Origin of consumption, but he failed because he realized he needed people that weren't exponentially different from Shiki.

First of all: No, neither Araya nor Ryougi are anywhere near that of even Kiri Nanaya

Kiri? The guy who was threatened by artillery and lost to a raging brick that had no combat skill and was nowhere near his prime? What a silly claim.

Secondly, no, Archetype Earth is NOT an Origin Awakening. It's VERY explicitly NOT. The text you even quoted outright said that it was NOT an Origin Awakening, but something similar. If you had actually read Kagetsu Tohya, you'd know what this is.

No, Ciel said she took something like an origin awakening to an "overwhelming level". Archetype denied the "overwhelming level" part. The guidebook confirms that Archetype is the "guiding principle" inside of Arcueid, which is shaped after TM's essence:

All in all... genuinely, I do not think you've read Tsukihime given everything you've said so far, but this is my opinion, so we'll see.

Your opinions are objectively wrong. Opinions always fall short against facts.

Also, apologies for splitting this into three posts. First time using the forum, had everything written in one, then found out about the image limit.

You should apologize for your terrible arguments and jumping into a debate about series you have zero knowledge of and are just collecting random scans you have zero understanding of. Actually, here's some advice for you:

Actually read the series you're debating so heavily.

Take some literary courses to make sure your reading comprehension is adequate, because if it isn't, you'll never grasp anything you read.

Don't rely on random Discord friends that also have zero knowledge to send you scans that you blindly trust are legitimate. And if you must, actually read the scans they send you, since a chunk of them either go against what you're saying or aren't even talking about the same subject as you are.

Try to get a handle on your personal preferences to suppress emotional biases so you can debate objectively.

And lastly, being in Marshadow's fanfic club will never expand your understanding of the franchise. You're both two new users regurgitating his talking points, with Wankbreaker copy and pasting entire posts from him even with his signature broken Discord links he always uses, which was a dead giveaway. And then he admitted to being in the same server as him on accident to top it all off.

 

[HyperZero95]

people saying void shiki is omnipotent haven’t read knk for sure, or only read cokesaktos shitty tl.

Also, I never said Void Shiki was omnipotent. She isn't. She's just the strongest in the verse.

I also am not using Coke's translation. This is a famous last desperate attempt cope from people who have completely lost any KnK debate. They assume their opposition is using Coke's translations, when I haven't done that at all. It's them indirectly admitting that in their heads they're praying "Please let him be using Coke's translations. Please please please."

The fact you can't even differentiate Coke's translations with all other translations proves you haven't even attempted to read Kara no Kyoukai, since his translation very clearly stands out from all the rest.

 

[Wankbreaker]

If I may ask, is there anything you'd want to add? There's stuff I didn't mention since I didn't want to make things THAT long (though... look how that turned out, lol), and there's a bunch of unrelated stuff that I've HEARD about the poster in question, yet didn't want to bring up due to being irrelevant to that specific post

Would be cool to see other people's opinions and takes!!

not much,but I wanna add a few things from the “Void Execution Squad” gc (I’m the bazett profile picture )

shiki has no special wq against arcueid here, but arcueid has a win quote for her. a win quote usually exists if there’s a preexisting relationship between characters, or if there’s a possible win condition. (in rare cases there’s even arcade exclusive wqs.)


Arc in her wq essentially tells ryougi to **** off,lol

 

[TheSilverKing14]

not much,but I wanna add a few things from the “Void Execution Squad” gc (I’m the bazett profile picture )

shiki has no special wq against arcueid here, but arcueid has a win quote for her. a win quote usually exists if there’s a preexisting relationship between characters, or if there’s a possible win condition. (in rare cases there’s even arcade exclusive wqs.)


Arc in her wq essentially tells ryougi to **** off,lol

Win quotes aren't canon if they come from random verses modes which is where that came from.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Your translation says the same thing and isn't more ambiguous at all.... Can you even read?



So Ryougi is going to fight herself? What? Do you hear how dumb you sound? Or are you twisting "the murder of a god" as in it meaning that Void is committing a murder against Archetype? Ignoring how hilariously desperate that is, that would still mean that Ryougi/Void's destiny was to kill Archetype. You lose either way.



The ending leaving it ambigous is already hyping them as being in the same league, with the guidebook very clearly confirming Archetype loses in your translation and the official one.


They both shit talked each other and were confident, so this is meaningless. You favoring Archetype's shit talk is arbitrary and shows your bias. Meanwhile Void is actually omniscient, so her sending Ryougi to slaughter her is actually credible, since she wouldn't have bothered to urge her if she couldn't win.

And even then, Archetype still acknowledged that Ryougi can still instill Death into her, despite being normally unable to die. This is supported by Void's statement in the Epilogue that Ryougi can kill all things with no exceptions, Araya noting that even his Sarira (Which belonged to someone that is actually entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth) cannot protect themselves from her eyes forever, and the novel asserting that everything that relies on Akasha for its existence can be ended by MEoDP, no matter what, with only Akasha itself being unable to be killed due to being a perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else but itself to exist.



Extreme coping. It's an official guidebook. Do you know how many franchises have guidebooks, encyclopedias, or supplementary materials produced by third parties that are still considered part of the canon? These materials are often used to expand on the lore and provide additional details that are consistent with the primary source material. That's because even if a guidebook is published by a third party, its content is often created in collaboration with the original creators or with their endorsement. This collaboration ensures that the information is accurate and consistent with the established lore, making them an extension of the official narrative. Even if the physical production is handled by a third party, the content is typically reviewed by the original creators. The guidebook is saying Ryougi killed Archetype because it's true.



This is baseless extrapolation. He planned to not kill her initially but she defeated him effortlessly and cut him into pieces, according to Archetype. And you can see Ryougi isn't exhausted at all after fighting him and is ready to fight Archetype, meaning Tohno provided no legitimate challenge.


Except loss quotes aren't canon, so this is irrelevant. Unless you think Ries and Ciel are stronger than Archetype simply because they have unique win quotes if you were to lose against them in her route. Those aren't alternate outcomes or dead ends. Those are just random win quotes. Ryougi is not supposed to lose to Tohno in that timeline.
And even then "Finally made her leave" sounds like he just fought her enough until she got bored and left. Doesn't even sound like an actual victory. So no, nothing in that scene implies Tohno is above Ryougi lol, even if we ignore the fact that it's non-canon in the first place.



Funny, you talk about knowing KnK, yet you mention those shitty anime adaptions. This already shows you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I've read the actual novel in all the translations, translated it with A.I. and so on.

It doesn't matter if Tohno didn't intend to kill her. He got cut down, with Ryougi showing no signs of exhaustion and canonically killed someone far above him (Archetype). Not to mention there are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his Nanaya instincts briefly taking over while being close to death, and this has happened against actual people he cared about like Yumizuka, Akiha, Sion etc.



Because....Ryougi is stronger than Nrvnqsr? Hence she defeated him? Holy shit! Basic logical deduction?



This is a really boring copy and paste NPC argument dude. MEoDP doesn't hard-counter Nrvnqsr. It allows them to one-shot him IF they get past his hordes and are able to outperform him in combat.
Shiki Tohno lost twice to Nrvnqsr, both in the hotel and their fight in the park until Nanaya came out. Even in MB, Tohno struggled massively to land a hit on Nrvnqsr despite having Sion's help, with him only finding an opening when his Tatari could not materialize anymore and was fading away. So much for MEoDP hard-countering him. MEoDP doesn't do shit if you get ovewhelmed from all sides by his beasts that you must hit the lines of. What a stupid argument and one that isn't original.



You forgot the hundreds upon hundreds of beasts that he can swarm people with on all sides, each with their own capabilities and form of movements. And that they all share vision with each other meaning you can't even surprise attack him.



You gain MEoDP by having your origin awakened and almost completely dying, resulting in your mind reaching death aka Akasha. This is shown by both Shiki's obtaining their MEoDP through near-death experiences that put them in a coma.

MEoDP is tied to their origin. If it wasn't, then any random person that had a near-death experience would have MEoDP, but that clearly isn't the case. It's even stated that MEoDP is one of "this body called Ryougi Shiki"'s powers, which is obviously referring to her body/Void Shiki and thus the personality of the Origin:



So what now? Are you going to say MEoDP is an Origin power for Ryougi but magically not for Tohno? Even though they unlocked them in the same exact manner and they both have descriptions of being innate abilities from within their bodies, with bodies often being used in the context of describing the soul/origin, which in turn dictates a person's traits and abilities? Like, are you capable of connecting the dots here? Or do I need to hold your hand and spell everything in big bold letters?

Nanaya's origin is hinted at in Red Demon God even. Kiri pursued death, but he could not reach it because he wasn't innately born with it. Someone born broken (hinting at Nanaya) would be required to fight Kouma.



Maybe if you had knowledge of any of these series you talk about, you'd know that Nanaya as a Tatari is different under Wallachia because Wallachia is directly influencing his personality:



As for your dumb little Akiha scan, he's referring to Akiha enjoying it to the extent that she isn't focused at all and got stomped immediately. Nanaya enjoys killing. It's his instinct. He even says that he is the guiding principle that Tohno refuses to use:

The difference is that Nanaya is cold and calculating in combat still. He doesn't get giddy over the thought of killing someone and making clumsy mistakes as a result. The only mistake he made was against Akiha if he waits too long to kill her, but that was a result of being overly cautious, which is the opposite of being super aggresive because you want to kill someone and not thinking things though at all.



Dear god.....You either have no idea what psycopathy is or you haven't read Tsukihime.

Actually, you definitely haven't read Tsukihime or any of these series. That much is a given. Gonna say you also don't undestand what psychopathy is either most likely, given your track record on everything.



His origin is death. It awakened once he nearly died and went into a coma, which is treated as a death of sorts in Type-Moon.



Except people can resist their origin impulses. Just look at Ryougi. Lio couldn't because his will was too weak.

Once again, you're proving you haven't read any of these series.



Oh wow, it's almost like they're the same person and are sharing the experience. And it's almost like Shiki wouldn't know he has an alternate personality or what an origin even is. Hell, the dude doesn't even know his own ******* real last name at this point in the story.

But you know, if you read Tsukihime, you'd know all that.



One is a natural killer due to their origin in this case. Clearly Kiri is a natural killer in the mundane sense. He murdered plenty of people and is the greatest assassin of his clan at the time. But in this context, one is only truly a natural killer if their origin is related to such things and gives them those natural inclinations and talents that are on a whole other level.



You do know that people calling Tohno's origin personality "Nanaya" is just a convenient naming to distinguish the two, right? SHIKI and Kouma for instance, also called Tohno Nanaya, simply because it's his real last name. You're getting too hooked on people just using their preferred naming choices for him.



Yeah, almost like they are born that way due to their origin. You are just proving my point....You good bro?



Because of their origins, which is why Kiri, who pursues death, can never match up to them even at their weakest, despite training his entire life.



I love how you leave out context.
That opening your scans hyped? You left out the part where the attack didn't kill Kouma and he proceeded to smash the shocked Kiri's skull in:

Keep in mind by the way, this is a Kouma with no training, unlike later when he knows martial arts. This Kouma also had no true will yet, until he killed Kiri, which ignited his passion and made him stronger as a result:




Kouma was only in his base form too when fighting Kiri, as he didn't have access to his Crimson Red Vermillion state yet.



At best, he would've gotten slightly rusty. But he would still be in that same league of being the greatest assassin of his clan. And despite that he died to a completely untrained raging bull that got insanely more powerful later on once he actually gained a true will, accessed his powers more, and started training himself.



What do you mean "As I've explained before"? This is a fresh account and these are your first posts to me are they not? I think you just accidentally outed yourself as an alt account.
Anyways, you added no argument here. You just made baseless assertions. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And I've already destroyed anyone previously with their dumb claims in regards to Araya. It's also funny you said that Araya needed to "train" his abilities, when it's explicitly stated that he mastered his bounded fields by complete accident, without even being aware of what they were initially. He just happened to perfect them due to studying the nature of the soul and recording death overtime, which caused the most basic form of his Origin powers to manifest and allow him to exert his will and understanding of reality up until that point on the external world. Later on, when he is in his realm and thus free from the regulation enacted by Gaia or the Counterforce, he learned how to manipulate reality to the point he made an infinite sized dimension and created a set of abstract rules to define its workings. Now that he is actually in Akasha and can come into contact with the abstract side of his Origin and its fundamental nature? R.I.P. Arcuied and anyone who isn't Ryougi.



It's funny you say this, because you have confirmed hundreds of times now that you have not read any of these series. You seem to just be skimming wikis and getting random scans from Discord buddies that also have never read these series and have no comprehension regardless.



Your own scans don't say that at all. Do you even read the pictures your Discord friends send you?

It says Kiri taught him the basics and Shiki TRIED to copy what he say Kiri doing. Not only did it say "tried", meaning he may have not been successful at all, but we don't even know what he saw Kiri doing in the first place. You're assuming he saw all of Kiri's techniques and copied them perfectly. Wank assumptions not implied anywhere. Hell, the fact it said he "TRIED" to copy Kiri implies that he failed, otherwise they would've said he just copied Kiri.




Not saying much, considering there are degrees of proficiency at which one can preform techniques. Again, the fact it said Shiki "tried" to copy Kiri heavily implies he wasn't able to, at least not fully by any means.



Your scan doesn't support your argument at all. It's never a good idea to just copy and paste scans people send you without actually reading their contents.



So first thing, Shiki was in a Servant container in GO, which would limit her.

Type-Moon has entirely separate canons. Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella contradict countless of old pieces of lore completely.

Void Shiki's character is completely rectonned.

Hell, Ryougi's character was rectonned in Future Gospel and Fate/GO.

Quantum timelocks contradict the infinite timelines described in FSN.

Types were rectonned to be complete fodder.

Notes cannot exist in Modern TM currently due to the pruning of dead-end worlds.

All of Extra's lore was rewritten in Extella.

Unified Language doesn't exist in GO.

The Root was rectonned to be a physical dimension.

The Second Magic was rectonned in the Tsukihime Remake side materials.

The First Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Fifth Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Tsukihime Remake's entire existence and purpose being to replace the original to fit with modern lore.

There's a thread on Comicvine made by a friend of mine that completely destroys the notion that Type-Moon is one singular canon. I'd even go as far as to say that all the doujin lore from the old series was trying to be thrown out once Fate came around, which is also explained in that thread. Fate lore even in the old days was always trying to throw out the original lore of the doujin works to some degree to the point Fate is really its own thing.

GO Ryougi, along with nearly all of the old characters are weird butchered fanfic-tier versions of their original selves.

In fact, old canon Ryougi is explicitly massively above Servants: Her Origin is Nothingness/Akasha. This makes Ryougi's Soul connected to Akasha itself, allowing her to discern fundamental truths about existence and have the potential to use every imaginable power if she gains knowledge of it. In fact, Touko outright described her body as being full of black boxes:



With black boxes referring to Origins/Souls, representing abstract phenomena shaping existence and creation. A single one of these black boxes is so powerful that it automatically obliterates even beings like Servants passively. Extra Servants, mind you, who have feats above normal ones:


With Araya stating that the Origin of Humanity (The same one that powers BB and required Hakuno's Servants to wield the power of their Origin to battle) is nothing compared to what he's seeking (The One):



And unlike with Tsukihime, I'm afraid you have no conceivable way of denying that these are the same exact Origin awakenings spoken of in KnK, due to them using the same exact terms and even the black box imagery. With Ryougi's body being the source of those black boxes acting as individual Origins, reflecting Akasha being the source of all phenomena. Result: Servants literally gets disintegrated by a fraction of Ryougi's power and anything else shown by Miss waifu butchered version of Shiki Ryougi in GO is utterly irrelevant.



Which is a clear hyperbole, considering the very same fight as her moving out of Asagami's sight in an instant, allowing her to dodge her sight-based distortions, which is a superhuman level of speed. Then we have her outright moving so fast she made an afterimage, which is massively faster than the very obvious hyperbole you cherrypicked:



Oh, here is her dismembering Lio faster than he could comprehend:



Same Lio explicitly stated to move faster than the eye can see:



And here is Ryougi explicitly moving at superhuman/invisible speeds after getting more serious against his weaker form:


So no. 3 meters in 10 seconds, if taken literally, is entirely inconsistent with the FTE speed Shiki has demonstrated in combat when serious. But we know this is hyperbole anyways, as the novel and other older TM works use seconds as hyperboles very often. Like Touko's projected creature taking "less than 10 seconds" to reach Alba, which is a strange thing to say in a high speed scenario, among other examples, like Mahoyo stating that Beowulf would need half a second to reach Soujuurou and another half a second to strike him, but then says he took a full second to even reach Soujuurou. It also mentions that Soujuurou attacked within a microsecond, yet the entire exchange, consisting of three blows, took three seconds. In this passage, the phrase "her speed was incredible" suggests that the three-second measurement is hyperbolic as well, especially since it seems below the capability of peak human sprinters. This discrepancy shows that the narration often uses "seconds" for dramatic effect rather than precise measurement. It was mostly used to emphasize the instantaneous nature of Asagami's abilities.



Load of bullshit. Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards.

LMAO, I would have never thought I'd see ******* Kirie of all people wanked against Ryougi. Ryougi no-sold her mental suggestions and one shotted her with MEoDP. That's literally it, her arm allowed Ryougi to pull her in close to her so she could stab her, but Kirie on her own couldn't do shit against Ryougi. Oh, and you guessed it: Kirie is another Origin awakened character. So she is an outlier. You'd know that if you actually read the story, as Araya required individuals with an Origin sharing traits with Shiki's to make her realize her true nature and make it harder for her to resist her impulses, causing Void Shiki to come out and take over. Araya's plan was initially to simply draw Void out. He tried this by starting with Lio and awakening his own Origin of consumption, but he failed because he realized he needed people that weren't exponentially different from Shiki.




Kiri? The guy who was threatened by artillery and lost to a raging brick that had no combat skill and was nowhere near his prime? What a silly claim.



No, Ciel said she took something like an origin awakening to an "overwhelming level". Archetype denied the "overwhelming level" part. The guidebook confirms that Archetype is the "guiding principle" inside of Arcueid, which is shaped after TM's essence:

Your opinions are objectively wrong. Opinions always fall short against facts.


You should apologize for your terrible arguments and jumping into a debate about series you have zero knowledge of and are just collecting random scans you have zero understanding of. Actually, here's some advice for you:

Actually read the series you're debating so heavily.

Take some literary courses to make sure your reading comprehension is adequate, because if it isn't, you'll never grasp anything you read.

Don't rely on random Discord friends that also have zero knowledge to send you scans that you blindly trust are legitimate. And if you must, actually read the scans they send you, since a chunk of them either go against what you're saying or aren't even talking about the same subject as you are.

Try to get a handle on your personal preferences to suppress emotional biases so you can debate objectively.

And lastly, being in Marshadow's fanfic club will never expand your understanding of the franchise. You're both two new users regurgitating his talking points, with Wankbreaker copy and pasting entire posts from him even with his signature broken Discord links he always uses, which was a dead giveaway. And then he admitted to being in the same server as him on accident to top it all off.

nice wall of text. however:

A girl with a mixture of Japanese kimono and leather jacket, embodying a blend of Eastern and Western styles. She has the Mystic Eyes of Shiki Tohno and the combat skills of Shiki Nanaya, making her a character that seems to have monopolized the best of both.

Every action she takes is highly skilled, leaving no openings in either offense or defense. However, her attacks that don’t utilize a knife or sword, such as sweeping kicks, deal surprisingly low damage, to the point where it might seem like a bug. Be cautious of this.

The "knife slash" of course, involves the use of her Mystic Eyes. Her Seventeen Dissections have almost the same performance as that of a certain someone else.

shes physically weak,and her knife self has inferior specs and performance to Tohno.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

nice wall of text. however:

A girl with a mixture of Japanese kimono and leather jacket, embodying a blend of Eastern and Western styles. She has the Mystic Eyes of Shiki Tohno and the combat skills of Shiki Nanaya, making her a character that seems to have monopolized the best of both.

Every action she takes is highly skilled, leaving no openings in either offense or defense. However, her attacks that don’t utilize a knife or sword, such as sweeping kicks, deal surprisingly low damage, to the point where it might seem like a bug. Be cautious of this.

The "knife slash" of course, involves the use of her Mystic Eyes. Her Seventeen Dissections have almost the same performance as that of a certain someone else.

shes physically weak,and her knife self has inferior specs and performance to Tohno.

I'd like to see Tohno fight Araya lol Araya the same one Ryougi said was way beyond Nrvnqsr who Tohno struggles to beat or fight without nanaya. No seriously invalid argument moving on. Just saying since you said something and didn't even back it up.

 

[HyperZero95]

nice wall of text. however:

A girl with a mixture of Japanese kimono and leather jacket, embodying a blend of Eastern and Western styles. She has the Mystic Eyes of Shiki Tohno and the combat skills of Shiki Nanaya, making her a character that seems to have monopolized the best of both.

Every action she takes is highly skilled, leaving no openings in either offense or defense. However, her attacks that don’t utilize a knife or sword, such as sweeping kicks, deal surprisingly low damage, to the point where it might seem like a bug. Be cautious of this.

The "knife slash" of course, involves the use of her Mystic Eyes. Her Seventeen Dissections have almost the same performance as that of a certain someone else.

shes physically weak,and her knife self has inferior specs and performance to Tohno.

Nice counterargument, Neco's alt. Very convincing.

Anyway, the damage she deals in-game is obviously a gameplay mechanic. It has no bearing on her lore. I also love how you didn't bold the part about her combining the best of Tohno and Nanaya into one, including the latter's martial arts.

The second one actually proves my point: Ryougi's fighting style with her knife and hand to hand is her just copying stuff she has seen around. She can only use the actual fighting style she was trained in with her katana:

"Aikido is just for fun. There's only one thing I've done since I was young.""Since you were young, eh. I thought you were strong. It was you who let loose a high kick at the back of a fleeing opponent's head. I thought how you acted was different. It was because of that. So do you have anything like a finishing move?"I ask the lamest questions. But Ryougi goes mmm, and falls into serious thought."I suppose I have something along those lines. I train by taking down everything using that as my premise, so if you call it a finishing move, it is one. But we aren't of that school. And it's originally a self-created style as well."The thing you train is your mindset, Ryougi adds. "You remake your body. From your breathing to the placement of your feet, awareness, thoughts, to be able to remake all of them for combat. Even the way of using your muscles changes, so it might feel like you become a different person. I suppose tensing your body and mind as a fight starts, and while you are fighting, is the foundation of all martial arts. However, we followed only that too much, and as a result our path went too far."In response to this dialogue that seemed to scorn oneself, I couldn't do anything but **** my head. "What, if you are strong then that's that. There wont be any instances where you go around getting bashed up like me. And you finished off those three guys in an instant. That's an incredible self-created style right there. "When I spoke, remembering that refreshing instant of when I met this girl, Ryougi seems a bit surprised."That's different. I only copied what I had seen. More than that, there's never been an instance where I've used our house's school of fighting."She nonchalantly spat out that frightening statement, then Ryougi collapsed onto the bed and fell asleep. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

So Ryougi without using her actual fighting style she was trained in can copy the Nanaya martial arts with a "near identical" performance to Nanaya on the fly instantly. Yes, much superior lmao. Her iteration of Seven Nights against Araya even distorted the laws of physics with her knife throw, unlike Nanaya.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Win quotes aren't canon if they come from random verses modes which is where that came from.

if you’re using melty blood scaling and win quote scaling, either all of it can be used, or none of it can. regardless, i’d trust the actual game more than a third party that has no involvement with type moon.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

if you’re using melty blood scaling and win quote scaling, either all of it can be used, or none of it can. regardless, i’d trust the actual game more than a third party that has no involvement with type moon.

Nice argument, too bad Araya is stated by the KNk novel to be unbeatable in H2H and his performance aganist ryougi giving in to her full power for that moment backs it up.

 

[HyperZero95]

if you’re using melty blood scaling and win quote scaling, either all of it can be used, or none of it can. regardless, i’d trust the actual game more than a third party that has no involvement with type moon.

Oh neco, you are always so silly... I guess MEoDP doesn't one-shot people canonically because it only deals a certain level of damage to someone's health bar? That's black and white thinking, which is just the wrong way to think about anything. The only canon win quotes are obviously those in story mode, as they are extension of the in-game cutscenes dialogues.

And third party with no involvement with Type-Moon? Their guidebook is on Steam bundled with Type Lumina. EX ranked Denial of Reality.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Nice counterargument, Neco's alt. Very convincing.

Anyway, the damage she deals in-game is obviously a gameplay mechanic. It has no bearing on her lore. I also love how you didn't bold the part about her combining the best of Tohno and Nanaya into one, including the latter's martial arts.

The second one actually proves my point: Ryougi's fighting style with her knife and hand to hand is her just copying stuff she has seen around. She can only use the actual fighting style she was trained in with her katana:



So Ryougi without using her actual fighting style she was trained in can copy the Nanaya martial arts with a "near identical" performance to Nanaya on the fly instantly. Yes, much superior lmao. Her iteration of Seven Nights against Araya even distorted the laws of physics with her knife throw, unlike Nanaya.

this is an entry from 2003, predating her entrance into melty blood. the FG terminology is just a theme for the poll (do you really think akira seo and kugamine would be chosen for a melty game?), it’s basically just saying ryougi is physically weak.

even distorted the laws of physics

where did you get this from

 

[HyperZero95]

this is an entry from 2003, predating her entrance into melty blood. the FG terminology is just a theme for the poll (do you really think akira seo and kugamine would be chosen for a melty game?), it’s basically just saying ryougi is physically weak.

Yes, it's predicting how would Ryougi play as in Melty Blood, while also providing in-lore info about her. But the actual Ryougi in the actual MB ended up having a different play style from the poll's version, making it irrelevant and effectively akin to fanfiction. The in-lore information is fine to use, but the amount of damage she deals in-game is very clearly a gameplay mechanic. You know why? Because Kishima is stated to have "the highest damage of all characters". So is Kishima stronger than Archetype Earth? lol.

Also, you're doing Neco's tactic too of ignoring nearly all of someone's arguments that you can't defend against and only pick out a few select ones to focus on that you think you may have a shot at trying to defend.

where did you get this from

From her knife bouncing off the ground twice, yet not only it didn't lose its momentum, but it actually picked up and randomly shoot upwards towards Araya's head. Normally, that would make an attack slower instead.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Oh neco, you little rascal. I guess MEoDP doesn't one-shot people canonically because it only deals a certain level of damage to someone's health bar? The only canon win quotes are obviously those in story mode, as they are extension of the in-game cutscenes dialogues.

And third party with no involvement with Type-Moon? Their guidebook is on Steam bundled with Type Lumina. EX ranked Denial of Reality.

are we just going to call everyone you disagree with alts? alright.
also you do know that the tohno shiki quote you claimed was “non canon” can only be triggered in that arcade mode.
and arc’s win quote is referring to the arcade mode as…. this version of arc doesn’t have a preexisting relationship with shiki, and shiki has only met normal arc in all around type moon.

regardless ,if you’re a type moon fan, you should know that the only guides that should actually be trusted, are the official material books published and written by tm themselves. If you look at the credits, you’ll notice that they grouped together random staff for this book

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes, it's predicting how would Ryougi play as in Melty Blood, while also providing in-lore info about her. But the actual Ryougi in the actual MB ended up having a different play style from the poll's version, making it irrelevant and effectively akin to fanfiction. The in-lore information is fine to use, but the amount of damage she deals in-game is very clearly a gameplay mechanic. You know why? Because Kishima is stated to have "the highest damage of all characters". So is Kishima stronger than Archetype Earth? lol.

Also, you're doing Neco's tactic too of ignoring nearly all of someone's arguments that you can't defend against and only pick out a few select ones to focus on that you think you may have a shot at trying to defend.



From her knife bouncing off the ground twice, yet not only it didn't lose its momentum, but it actually picked up and randomly shoot upwards towards Araya's head. Normally, that would make an attack slower instead.

i’m pretty sure @Synnian can defend his own arguments. in fact he should be typing something right about now.

yea, by that logic every FTL character breaks the laws of physics. shaky logic to try and assert something of that scope.

 

[Violatas]

First of all: No, neither Araya nor Ryougi are anywhere near that of even Kiri Nanaya

I'm just gonna ask, what? Kiri explicitly can't even react to bullets, and has no evidence for any particularly high scaling. As far as the Nanaya clan goes he was above just about everyone, except for Shiki Nanaya, who has way better scaling and even better speed feats. Hell, Tohno already reacted to lighting in the Tsukihime manga, and can fight with Dead Apostles, who explicitly can react to bullets after they've been fired.

The rest of the Nanaya clan in general don't have any particular feats or anything to suggest they're high tiers

Also lmao, I'm sure Hyper doesn't mind debating this, but just coming in and going "ye didn't read le series" is a petty way on engagement. Though I've already seen how you act regarding Tsukihime based on how you act on your Twitter, Syn so I'm just gonna predict it'd be a waste of time.

and there's a bunch of unrelated stuff that I've HEARD about the poster in question

And this. I know the server you're referring to. That Nasuverse vs wiki server? I used to be in that just fyi, and I left awhile back. Got bad vibes from it, its mainly herd mentality, and I can promise you nearly everyone in that server hasn't read the OG Tsukihime either, which I'm sure you've noticed if you've been particularly active in it.

 

[HyperZero95]

are we just going to call everyone you disagree with alts? alright.

You conveniently ignore how I called out in the other thread that your grammar, wording, tactics, and arguments are the same as Neco, on top of you sending broken Discord links for scans, which is something he does all the time, almost as if you're copy and pasting his arguments.

To top it all off, you accidentally admitted you're in the same Discord server as him. And he's been using other users as a mouthpiece after getting banned, which other people have pointed out on this website, like in the Tier 0 Root thread

also you do know that the tohno shiki quote you claimed was “non canon” can only be triggered in that arcade mode.
and arc’s win quote is referring to the arcade mode as…. this version of arc doesn’t have a preexisting relationship with shiki, and shiki has only met normal arc in all around type moon.

regardless ,if you’re a type moon fan, you should know that the only guides that should actually be trusted, are the official material books published and written by tm themselves. If you look at the credits, you’ll notice that they grouped together random staff for this book

Error 404: Logical counterarguments not found.

yea, by that logic every FTL character breaks the laws of physics. shaky logic to try and assert something of that scope.

Error 404: Logical counterarguments not found.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm just gonna ask, what? Kiri explicitly can't even react to bullets, and has no evidence for any particularly high scaling. As far as the Nanaya clan goes he was above just about everyone, except for Shiki Nanaya, who has way better scaling and even better speed feats. Hell, Tohno already reacted to lighting in the Tsukihime manga, and can fight with Dead Apostles, who explicitly can react to bullets after they've been fired.

The rest of the Nanaya clan in general don't have any particular feats or anything to suggest they're high tiers

Also lmao, I'm sure Hyper doesn't mind debating this, but just coming in and going "ye didn't read le series" is a petty way on engagement. Though I've already seen how you act regarding Tsukihime based on how you act on your Twitter, Syn so I'm just gonna predict it'd be a waste of time.

And this. I know the server you're referring to. That Nasuverse vs wiki server? I used to be in that just fyi, and I left awhile back. Got bad vibes from it, its mainly herd mentality, and I can promise you nearly everyone in that server hasn't read the OG Tsukihime either, which I'm sure you've noticed if you've been particularly active in it.

the speed of electricity in air doesn’t always equal the speed of lightning.

also, aren’t you the “future gospel isn’t canon because shiki had a kid” person on r/karanokyoukai?

 

[HyperZero95]

also, aren’t you the “future gospel isn’t canon because shiki had a kid” person on r/karanokyoukai?

And aren't you "the Earth > The Root" guy on Comicvine? Or the "MEoDP can kill The Root" guy on Comicvine?

 

[Violatas]

the speed of electricity in air doesn’t always equal the speed of lightning.

The lightning in Type Moon is just reenacting already existing phenomena through super natural means, which means it is real lightning. Though yes, the speed can vary while in the air. Kiri still doesn't have anything remotely close to that level

also, aren’t you the “future gospel isn’t canon because shiki had a kid” person on r/karanokyoukai?

I don't even use the reddit like that bruh, let alone hang in the Type Moon ones. To answer the question, no.
And you're definitely just deploying Neco's arguments of bringing up things not even related to what's being discussed either

 

[HammerStrikes219]

And I was wondering why I refrained from Nasuverse related threads (although tbf, that is me in general when it comes to other threads normally).

Can it with the accusations at least as I getting headaches from having to remember that incident

 

[Violatas]

And I was wondering why I refrained from Nasuverse related threads (although tbf, that is me in general when it comes to other threads normally).

Can it with the accusations at least as I getting headaches from having to remember that incident

Feel free to tell the new users this since they stormed in with "muh you haven't read this and that"
Seems like they only joined to cause trouble, and given their alliance with Neco, not surprised in the slightest

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Feel free to tell the new users this since they stormed in with "muh you haven't read this and that"
Seems like they only joined to cause trouble, and given their alliance with Neco, not surprised in the slightest

I mostly recall the incident being reported in Rules Violation Thread which is quite stupid on Neo’s part.

Guy shouldn’t tried to pull that off like someone did for the Founder of VS Battle Wiki.

Yes… I just recall a similar incident… It leaves me full of disappointment now I recall it with such clarity

 

[Wankbreaker]

You conveniently ignore how I called out in the other thread that your grammar, wording, tactics, and arguments are the same as Neco, on top of you sending broken Discord links for scans, which is something he does all the time, almost as if you're copy and pasting his arguments.

To top it all off, you accidentally admitted you're in the same Discord server as him. And he's been using other users as a mouthpiece after getting banned, which other people have pointed out on this website, like in the Tier 0 Root thread


Error 404: Logical counterarguments not found.



Error 404: Logical counterarguments not found.

oh no I’m in a discord server with over 30k other users. regardless, i haven’t exactly kept the fact that I’m in that server a secret, why would I? also, I’ve mostly used text based scans, the only image scan I’ve used was for the ciel thing, and that image works.
but regardless, are you trying to say that me and everyone else in that gc are alts? are me,syn,boastz and crim alts now? come on,man

regardless, we know that ryougi is physically weak, an attack hyped to smash concrete broke her bones, and is stated outright to not be that more durable than a normal human…. and she got utterly washed in a sword fight by her dad

 

[Synnian]

Your translation says the same thing and isn't more ambiguous at all.... Can you even read?

"Her fate was to become a God-Killer" and "A further-fate awaits her: The murder of a god" are two entirely different things. One is outright saying "She kills Archetype Earth", while the other says "the outcome of the fight is the murder of a god", inwhich BOTH fighters involved can be referred to as "gods" in their own right, those being AE and Void Shiki

So Ryougi is going to fight herself? What? Do you hear how dumb you sound? Or are you twisting "the murder of a god" as in it meaning that Void is committing a murder against Archetype? Ignoring how hilariously desperate that is, that would still mean that Ryougi/Void's destiny was to kill Archetype. You lose either way.

Incredibly aggressive for someone misunderstanding the sentences I type. As I said above: Both fighters can be referred to as a "god". The fact that the outcome of the fight results in "the murder of a god" does not say who wins or who loses.

The ending leaving it ambigous is already hyping them as being in the same league, with the guidebook very clearly confirming Archetype loses in your translation and the official one.

You can say what you want, but Archetype Earth calling Ryougi "trash" and Ryougi Shiki saying that AE has no lines for her to exploit, as if she has no "death" outright, is not 'hyping it up'. Does not help your case how AE outright ignores Ryougi for the vast majority of the cutscene, preferring to directly comment to Void Shiki herself.

They both shit talked each other and were confident, so this is meaningless. You favoring Archetype's shit talk is arbitrary and shows your bias. Meanwhile Void is actually omniscient, so her sending Ryougi to slaughter her is actually credible, since she wouldn't have bothered to urge her if she couldn't win.

And even then, Archetype still acknowledged that Ryougi can still instill Death into her, despite being normally unable to die. This is supported by Void's statement in the Epilogue that Ryougi can kill all things with no exceptions, Araya noting that even his Sarira (Which belonged to someone that is actually entirely removed from the cycle of Death and Rebirth) cannot protect themselves from her eyes forever, and the novel asserting that everything that relies on Akasha for its existence can be ended by MEoDP, no matter what, with only Akasha itself being unable to be killed due to being a perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else but itself to exist.

They... don't do that? Archetype Earth says her goal is to try to kill something that cannot die, then mocks her for it. What Ryougi says after amounts to "hmph, I'll show you!" and nothing else. This is NOT helping your case.

Extreme coping. It's an official guidebook. Do you know how many franchises have guidebooks, encyclopedias, or supplementary materials produced by third parties that are still considered part of the canon? These materials are often used to expand on the lore and provide additional details that are consistent with the primary source material. That's because even if a guidebook is published by a third party, its content is often created in collaboration with the original creators or with their endorsement. This collaboration ensures that the information is accurate and consistent with the established lore, making them an extension of the official narrative. Even if the physical production is handled by a third party, the content is typically reviewed by the original creators. The guidebook is saying Ryougi killed Archetype because it's true.

I am not saying it does not count. I am saying your entire argument banks off of something that can very easily be translated into another way, with the source material in question supporting the translation I provided. Please calm yourself.

This is baseless extrapolation. He planned to not kill her initially but she defeated him effortlessly and cut him into pieces, according to Archetype. And you can see Ryougi isn't exhausted at all after fighting him and is ready to fight Archetype, meaning Tohno provided no legitimate challenge.

So you... agree that the author had to write it so that Tohno was not attempting to harm her? Thank you.

Except loss quotes aren't canon, so this is irrelevant. Unless you think Ries and Ciel are stronger than Archetype simply because they have unique win quotes if you were to lose against them in her route. Those aren't alternate outcomes or dead ends. Those are just random win quotes. Ryougi is not supposed to lose to Tohno in that timeline.
And even then "Finally made her leave" sounds like he just fought her enough until she got bored and left. Doesn't even sound like an actual victory. So no, nothing in that scene implies Tohno is above Ryougi lol, even if we ignore the fact that it's non-canon in the first place.

I personally think a loss quote that is UNIQUE to the arcade mode battle (NOT in regular vs mode fights), that SUPPORTS what is said in the actual main cutscene, is capable to be used. Regardless, even if you ignore it, the fact matters is that Tohno had to be specifically written to NOT be trying to harm Ryougi in any way.

Funny, you talk about knowing KnK, yet you mention those shitty anime adaptions. This already shows you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I've read the actual novel in all the translations, translated it with A.I. and so on.

It doesn't matter if Tohno didn't intend to kill her. He got cut down, with Ryougi showing no signs of exhaustion and canonically killed someone far above him (Archetype). Not to mention there are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his Nanaya instincts briefly taking over while being close to death, and this has happened against actual people he cared about like Yumizuka, Akiha, Sion etc.

Then tell me, what exactly happened in the novels against Lio? Surely she was not incapacitated at first because she was NOT trying to kill Lio... right?

Secondly, your point of "There are multiple instances of Tohno accessing his full power due to his instincts" isn't valid in the first place. There's an entire route of the story dedicated to how they DON'T appear all the time, like Ciel's route... unless you're going to tell me that Nanaya or Satsujinki appeared within their fight at the end lol.

Because....Ryougi is stronger than Nrvnqsr? Hence she defeated him? Holy shit! Basic logical deduction?

Are you... unable to understand the concept of "compatibility"?

This is a really boring copy and paste NPC argument dude. MEoDP doesn't hard-counter Nrvnqsr. It allows them to one-shot him IF they get past his hordes and are able to outperform him in combat.
Shiki Tohno lost twice to Nrvnqsr, both in the hotel and their fight in the park until Nanaya came out. Even in MB, Tohno struggled massively to land a hit on Nrvnqsr despite having Sion's help, with him only finding an opening when his Tatari could not materialize anymore and was fading away. So much for MEoDP hard-countering him. MEoDP doesn't do shit if you get ovewhelmed from all sides by his beasts that you must hit the lines of. What a stupid argument and one that isn't original.

Nero's entire kit is "big defense" and "relatively low offense". Nasu even talks about this, saying that the "other stats" of the DAA's with high HP don't match up to their outrageously high endurance factor. Yes, physical ability is a big factor in their fights, but trying to say that "person whose really hard to kill" is not hard-countered by someone whose ability amounts to "I can kill anything in one hit" is genuinely delusional

You forgot the hundreds upon hundreds of beasts that he can swarm people with on all sides, each with their own capabilities and form of movements. And that they all share vision with each other meaning you can't even surprise attack him.

The... hundreds of beasts ofwhich a dying, nearly unable to walk Arcueid on what, maybe 5% power, was effortlessly able to handle before she ran out of juice? Nero even outright says "yeah I am SUPER lucky I wasn't fighting the normal you".

You gain MEoDP by having your origin awakened and almost completely dying, resulting in your mind reaching death aka Akasha. This is shown by both Shiki's obtaining their MEoDP through near-death experiences that put them in a coma.

MEoDP is tied to their origin. If it wasn't, then any random person that had a near-death experience would have MEoDP, but that clearly isn't the case. It's even stated that MEoDP is one of "this body called Ryougi Shiki"'s powers, which is obviously referring to her body/Void Shiki and thus the personality of the Origin:

Which would be the case if Tohno Shiki had his origin awakened. Inwhich he doesn't have it awakened. Your entire basis for MEODP's origins amounts to "it wasn't officially confirmed, but I think so!" and nothing else

So what now? Are you going to say MEoDP is an Origin power for Ryougi but magically not for Tohno? Even though they unlocked them in the same exact manner and they both have descriptions of being innate abilities from within their bodies, with bodies often being used in the context of describing the soul/origin, which in turn dictates a person's traits and abilities? Like, are you capable of connecting the dots here? Or do I need to hold your hand and spell everything in big bold letters?

Nanaya's origin is hinted at in Red Demon God even. Kiri pursued death, but he could not reach it because he wasn't innately born with it. Someone born broken (hinting at Nanaya) would be required to fight Kouma.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm going to say, because it explicitly isn't like that for both.

They're very clearly two different concepts. And before you go on about "Arcueid said he had potential!!!", she very explicitly has no idea about his origins as a Nanaya.

No, Tohno's abilities were never explicitly death. If you want to describe it as that, his "power of the body" was literally defined as 'see what cannot be seen', and not literally seeing death until Tohno Shiki was born.

"Something born broken needs to be there to fight Kouma" and yet it's all but outright said Kiri at his peak could smoke Kouma. Crazy.

Maybe if you had knowledge of any of these series you talk about, you'd know that Nanaya as a Tatari is different under Wallachia because Wallachia is directly influencing his personality:

My brother in christ the entire plot of Nanaya's route in Actress Again was that he wanted to kill kouma before he faded away, and he was LOVING it.

As for your dumb little Akiha scan, he's referring to Akiha enjoying it to the extent that she isn't focused at all and got stomped immediately. Nanaya enjoys killing. It's his instinct. He even says that he is the guiding principle that Tohno refuses to use:

The difference is that Nanaya is cold and calculating in combat still. He doesn't get giddy over the thought of killing someone and making clumsy mistakes as a result. The only mistake he made was against Akiha if he waits too long to kill her, but that was a result of being overly cautious, which is the opposite of being super aggresive because you want to kill someone and not thinking things though at all.

I don't even have anything else to say to this. If anything else, this is the most stupid thing I've ever seen.

Dear god.....You either have no idea what psycopathy is or you haven't read Tsukihime.

Actually, you definitely haven't read Tsukihime or any of these series. That much is a given. Gonna say you also don't undestand what psychopathy is either most likely, given your track record on everything.

...what?

His origin is death. It awakened once he nearly died and went into a coma, which is treated as a death of sorts in Type-Moon.

Your argument for it awakening is "I think so".

Except people can resist their origin impulses. Just look at Ryougi. Lio couldn't because his will was too weak.

Once again, you're proving you haven't read any of these series.

...Void Shiki was the original personality, and created SHIKI and Shiki AFTER she was born. It's a unique situation between them. I'm genuinely baffled at how you're acting, when you're so confident and... wrong.

Oh wow, it's almost like they're the same person and are sharing the experience. And it's almost like Shiki wouldn't know he has an alternate personality or what an origin even is. Hell, the dude doesn't even know his own ******* real last name at this point in the story.

But you know, if you read Tsukihime, you'd know all that.

They are fundamentally the same person, yes. But it's not an alternate personality. Nanaya outright... says that he is not an alternate personality. Did you read the scene?

One is a natural killer due to their origin in this case. Clearly Kiri is a natural killer in the mundane sense. He murdered plenty of people and is the greatest assassin of his clan at the time. But in this context, one is only truly a natural killer if their origin is related to such things and gives them those natural inclinations and talents that are on a whole other level.

"Due to their origin", no. That's not what that is. Kiri is not a natural killer. He had to be taught how to move properly. He is a "talented killer" not a "natural killer."

You do know that people calling Tohno's origin personality "Nanaya" is just a convenient naming to distinguish the two, right? SHIKI and Kouma for instance, also called Tohno Nanaya, simply because it's his real last name. You're getting too hooked on people just using their preferred naming choices for him.

The entire basis for the Tsukihime Remake includes Tohno and Nanaya outright having conversations with each other. They're "Foundation" and "Outer layer", extrapolating off of Nanaya referring to himself as Shiki's "Foundation"

Yeah, almost like they are born that way due to their origin. You are just proving my point....You good bro?

Your argument for them being Origins is nothing but headcanon.

Because of their origins, which is why Kiri, who pursues death, can never match up to them even at their weakest, despite training his entire life.

I outright posted the scene where it is directly said that if a weakened Kiri had hit Kouma any harder, his head would have exploded.

I love how you leave out context.
That opening your scans hyped? You left out the part where the attack didn't kill Kouma and he proceeded to smash the shocked Kiri's skull in:

...Pardon, my scan of an attack that is OUTRIGHT SAID to NOT kill Kouma, is missing the context of the attack... not killing him?
It directly says that if a weakened Kiri had hit him any harder, Kouma would have died.

At best, he would've gotten slightly rusty. But he would still be in that same league of being the greatest assassin of his clan. And despite that he died to a completely untrained raging bull that got insanely more powerful later on once he actually gained a true will, accessed his powers more, and started training himself.

The entire narrative basis for the work is that if the Nanaya Clan weren't at the top, they would be wiped out, whether or not it was by the discrimination they faced, or by enemies they had made. Kiri was weakened. Severely.

What do you mean "As I've explained before"? This is a fresh account and these are your first posts to me are they not? I think you just accidentally outed yourself as an alt account.

Anyways, you added no argument here. You just made baseless assertions. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And I've already destroyed anyone previously with their dumb claims in regards to Araya. It's also funny you said that Araya needed to "train" his abilities, when it's explicitly stated that he mastered his bounded fields by complete accident, without even being aware of what they were initially. He just happened to perfect them due to studying the nature of the soul and recording death overtime, which caused the most basic form of his Origin powers to manifest and allow him to exert his will and understanding of reality up until that point on the external world. Later on, when he is in his realm and thus free from the regulation enacted by Gaia or the Counterforce, he learned how to manipulate reality to the point he made an infinite sized dimension and created a set of abstract rules to define its workings. Now that he is actually in Akasha and can come into contact with the abstract side of his Origin and its fundamental nature? R.I.P. Arcuied and anyone who isn't Ryougi.

The entire first half of my post was me explaining how the "born with" phenomena was not origins. You are not reading my posts, and are instead focusing on continuing your agenda that not even the author agrees with.

So you admit that Araya had to study to master his abilities? Damn. I don't even have to do anything here.

It's funny you say this, because you have confirmed hundreds of times now that you have not read any of these series. You seem to just be skimming wikis and getting random scans from Discord buddies that also have never read these series and have no comprehension regardless.

Your response to me posting a screenshot of narration saying "if this attack was stronger, it would have killed him", was to say that I was missing context... of the attack not killing the person.

Your own scans don't say that at all. Do you even read the pictures your Discord friends send you?

It says Kiri taught him the basics and Shiki TRIED to copy what he say Kiri doing. Not only did it say "tried", meaning he may have not been successful at all, but we don't even know what he saw Kiri doing in the first place. You're assuming he saw all of Kiri's techniques and copied them perfectly. Wank assumptions not implied anywhere. Hell, the fact it said he "TRIED" to copy Kiri implies that he failed, otherwise they would've said he just copied Kiri.

I personally think that if someone "tries" to copy someone, and then we see said person PULL OFF the moves, directly said to be the "moves of his father", then we know that the person was successful in copying.

Not saying much, considering there are degrees of proficiency at which one can preform techniques. Again, the fact it said Shiki "tried" to copy Kiri heavily implies he wasn't able to, at least not fully by any means.

Do you think the ultimate technique of the nanaya clan is considered "just the basics"?

Your scan doesn't support your argument at all. It's never a good idea to just copy and paste scans people send you without actually reading their contents.

They're openly said to have "bodies trained to the limit" and "power beyond the boundary of a human"...

So first thing, Shiki was in a Servant container in GO, which would limit her.

Type-Moon has entirely separate canons. Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella contradict countless of old pieces of lore completely.

Void Shiki's character is completely rectonned.

Hell, Ryougi's character was rectonned in Future Gospel and Fate/GO.

Quantum timelocks contradict the infinite timelines described in FSN.

Types were rectonned to be complete fodder.

Notes cannot exist in Modern TM currently due to the pruning of dead-end worlds.

All of Extra's lore was rewritten in Extella.

Unified Language doesn't exist in GO.

The Root was rectonned to be a physical dimension.

The Second Magic was rectonned in the Tsukihime Remake side materials.

The First Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Fifth Magic was rectonned in GO.

The Tsukihime Remake's entire existence and purpose being to replace the original to fit with modern lore.

There's a thread on Comicvine made by a friend of mine that completely destroys the notion that Type-Moon is one singular canon. I'd even go as far as to say that all the doujin lore from the old series was trying to be thrown out once Fate came around, which is also explained in that thread. Fate lore even in the old days was always trying to throw out the original lore of the doujin works to some degree to the point Fate is really its own thing.

GO Ryougi, along with nearly all of the old characters are weird butchered fanfic-tier versions of their original selves.

In fact, old canon Ryougi is explicitly massively above Servants: Her Origin is Nothingness/Akasha. This makes Ryougi's Soul connected to Akasha itself, allowing her to discern fundamental truths about existence and have the potential to use every imaginable power if she gains knowledge of it. In fact, Touko outright described her body as being full of black boxes:

• No she wasn't
• There is an established thing called "worldlines" and "timelines" separating several worlds.
• Why are you telling me that the author wrote the character... HE MADE... to be out of character...?
• Not particularly, it just gives more context to them. Especially considering that worlds that don't follow a certain 'rule' are outright removed. There's still infinite timelines, just ones that don't follow a certain guideline are destroyed.
• The only actual encounter we have with a TYPE in FGO, is one where we fight one with its heart entirely removed, after it fought massive battle, inwhich it had to split into two pieces, with the secondary piece actively wanting to commit suicide. It still took everything Chaldea had, the ENTIRE Throne they had access to (hundreds of servants, including REALLY high tiers) all at once, the concept of death being thrusted onto it, a MEODP user, and more. And this is one with its heart removed, actively wanting to kill itself.
• ...no? lol

I can't even begin to answer all of this, it's laughable. Type-Moon does not have "two canons". What you CAN say, is that Tsukihime Remake and the Original are two separate canons, which is true, but saying that the entirety of FSN, KnK, Mahoyo, and more, are suddenly rendered "non-canon" to FGO, which actively collaborate with it, is laughable.

Making an entire thread dedicated to saying "the author does not know his own characters" despite him being extremely possessive over them and treating them with care, is delusional

With black boxes referring to Origins/Souls, representing abstract phenomena shaping existence and creation. A single one of these black boxes is so powerful that it automatically obliterates even beings like Servants passively. Extra Servants, mind you, who have feats above normal ones:

These are not Origins. MMC is a completely separate concept.

The entire concept you're banking on is people experiencing thousands of deaths. When Servants do not do that.

Load of bullshit. Asagami had an advantage because she could attack Ryougi at range, so she could not close in on her while being in her line of sight. And her MEoDP wasn't evolved yet, so she couldn't kill Asagami's distortions. But later she managed to comprehend them and bodied Asagami while missing an arm. And even prior to that, she was moving so much faster than Asagami that she had troubles keeping her in her line of sight immediately, only finally scoring a Distortion after a good while.
Furthermore, Asagami would blink the entire Nanaya clan combined, as she is herself an absurd outlier and a Origin awakened character. You'd know that if you actually read KnK, since they explicitly stated that the actual normal use of telekinesis (The main power of the Asakamis) takes a WEEK to bend a human arm, and it only has one channel of rotation. While Asagami can instantly crush a bridge if she has it in sight and can rotate in things in both directions, which is considered abnormal among TK users.
Finally, Shiki in that fight was far from full power, as she was mostly enjoying the fight and wasn't fully committed to kill her opponent like she was against Araya or even God's Word. And Shiki can only access her full power if she is able to kill without hesitations, as seen with Lio. But Asagami was flickering between the boundary of normalcy and abnormalcy, which led Shiki to shift her focus to the illness that was actually causing her to act abnormal. Shiki is fearful of her killing instincts for most of KnK and hesitates in giving in her true nature. Hence she only truly access her full power against abnormal non-human opponents that she doesn't fear killing. It's only at the end of the story that Shiki is able to realise that, as long as Mikiya is around, she can kill anyone without falling prey to her impulses, so she has no reason to fear her true nature. Thus her full power would become her default level of power from that point onwards.

LMAO, I would have never thought I'd see ******* Kirie of all people wanked against Ryougi. Ryougi no-sold her mental suggestions and one shotted her with MEoDP. That's literally it, her arm allowed Ryougi to pull her in close to her so she could stab her, but Kirie on her own couldn't do shit against Ryougi. Oh, and you guessed it: Kirie is another Origin awakened character. So she is an outlier. You'd know that if you actually read the story, as Araya required individuals with an Origin sharing traits with Shiki's to make her realize her true nature and make it harder for her to resist her impulses, causing Void Shiki to come out and take over. Araya's plan was initially to simply draw Void out. He tried this by starting with Lio and awakening his own Origin of consumption, but he failed because he realized he needed people that weren't exponentially different from Shiki.

So you admit that Ryougi was at a compete disadvantage against Fujino and needed an environmental advantage against her? Against a BRANCH FAMILY member?

Secondly, you again, admit that Ryougi was only able to kill Kirie due to Touko's assistance. Thank you.

Kiri? The guy who was threatened by artillery and lost to a raging brick that had no combat skill and was nowhere near his prime? What a silly claim.

I think if Ryougi Shiki explicitly needs a sword in order to take on Demons without her eyes, while a weakened Kiri almost outright killed the (second) strongest Mixblood ever born, then Ryougi does not have this. At all.

No, Ciel said she took something like an origin awakening to an "overwhelming level". Archetype denied the "overwhelming level" part. The guidebook confirms that Archetype is the "guiding principle" inside of Arcueid, which is shaped after TM's essence:

"Something like". Thank you. The "guiding principle" is the Crimson Moon, as I outright posted in the screenshots. Please read Kagetsu Tohya.

Your opinions are objectively wrong. Opinions always fall short against facts.

Your response to me posting a screenshot of narration saying "if this attack was stronger, it would have killed him", was to say that I was missing context... of the attack not killing the person.

You should apologize for your terrible arguments and jumping into a debate about series you have zero knowledge of and are just collecting random scans you have zero understanding of. Actually, here's some advice for you:

Actually read the series you're debating so heavily.

Take some literary courses to make sure your reading comprehension is adequate, because if it isn't, you'll never grasp anything you read.

Don't rely on random Discord friends that also have zero knowledge to send you scans that you blindly trust are legitimate. And if you must, actually read the scans they send you, since a chunk of them either go against what you're saying or aren't even talking about the same subject as you are.

Try to get a handle on your personal preferences to suppress emotional biases so you can debate objectively.

And lastly, being in Marshadow's fanfic club will never expand your understanding of the franchise. You're both two new users regurgitating his talking points, with Wankbreaker copy and pasting entire posts from him even with his signature broken Discord links he always uses, which was a dead giveaway. And then he admitted to being in the same server as him on accident to top it all off.

The vast majority of your arguments rely on headcanon. Please talk to people respectfully, though I suppose you refuse to do that, now that your pride was challenged by me.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The lightning in Type Moon is just reenacting already existing phenomena through super natural means, which means it is real lightning. Though yes, the speed can vary while in the air. Kiri still doesn't have anything remotely close to that level


I don't even use the reddit like that bruh, let alone hang in the Type Moon ones. To answer the question, no.
And you're definitely just deploying Neco's arguments of bringing up things not even related to what's being discussed either

ok, I never questioned if the electricity was real, I questioned if it should scale to lightning speed, as all electric discharges aren’t lightning speed. The remake is more explicit in calling it lightning speed,so I’ll give points there.


also:

 

[Tdjwo]

Sorry to ruin the party and all the fun but there are some things I want to clear up.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure Ryougi actually won against Arc. Iirc, after Ryougi beat Tohno, she proceeded to fight Aec and she word for word said everything was a dream to her and Arc not having a death concept was meaningless to her. I remembered @KingNanaya and I arguing with Marshadow regarding this.

Secondly, I don't think Void Shiki ever fought Arc. Void only ever appeared in KnK epilogue as well as Fgo as Saber shiki. Void doesn't give a shit about fight and even if she fought Arc, she would just erase Arc out of existence.

Thirdly, Ryougi slams Tohno. Idk why this is still a debate. Ryougi got better eyes, better connection to the root as her origin is literally emptiness.

Lastly, Void is indeed omnipotent. This has been pointed out several times in Knk.

 

[Synnian]

I'm just gonna ask, what? Kiri explicitly can't even react to bullets, and has no evidence for any particularly high scaling. As far as the Nanaya clan goes he was above just about everyone, except for Shiki Nanaya, who has way better scaling and even better speed feats. Hell, Tohno already reacted to lighting in the Tsukihime manga, and can fight with Dead Apostles, who explicitly can react to bullets after they've been fired.

The rest of the Nanaya clan in general don't have any particular feats or anything to suggest they're high tiers

Also lmao, I'm sure Hyper doesn't mind debating this, but just coming in and going "ye didn't read le series" is a petty way on engagement. Though I've already seen how you act regarding Tsukihime based on how you act on your Twitter, Syn so I'm just gonna predict it'd be a waste of time.

And this. I know the server you're referring to. That Nasuverse vs wiki server? I used to be in that just fyi, and I left awhile back. Got bad vibes from it, its mainly herd mentality, and I can promise you nearly everyone in that server hasn't read the OG Tsukihime either, which I'm sure you've noticed if you've been particularly active in it.

My reputation proceeds me, I'm honestly flattered.

Moving on:

I'm just gonna ask, what? Kiri explicitly can't even react to bullets, and has no evidence for any particularly high scaling. As far as the Nanaya clan goes he was above just about everyone, except for Shiki Nanaya, who has way better scaling and even better speed feats. Hell, Tohno already reacted to lighting in the Tsukihime manga, and can fight with Dead Apostles, who explicitly can react to bullets after they've been fired.

Kiri's speed feats involve him, while weakened, dodging Kouma's attacks over and over again. That's about it. You can say what you want about the bullet statement, but the fact of the matter is he's able to contend with Kouma even while weakened. Then you can consider the fact that that same Kouma was a challenge with Tohno Shiki after he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves, so either this moves into "Louvre and Enhance are faster than most DAA and every single TA" territory, or it leads into a massive loop where nothing makes sense.

The rest of the Nanaya clan in general don't have any particular feats or anything to suggest they're high tiers

While I do generally agree with this, RDG states that the Nanaya as a Clan were considered the "absolute war power" of the DHO, which is confirmed to host several divine beings/gods.

Also lmao, I'm sure Hyper doesn't mind debating this, but just coming in and going "ye didn't read le series" is a petty way on engagement. Though I've already seen how you act regarding Tsukihime based on how you act on your Twitter, Syn so I'm just gonna predict it'd be a waste of time.

The entire basis of the argument itself was him saying that Origins > Non-Origins, when one of the works he quoted outright implies that the one without an "origin" awakened would have beaten the other had he not been weakened beforehand.

And this. I know the server you're referring to. That Nasuverse vs wiki server? I used to be in that just fyi, and I left awhile back. Got bad vibes from it, its mainly herd mentality, and I can promise you nearly everyone in that server hasn't read the OG Tsukihime either, which I'm sure you've noticed if you've been particularly active in it.

Actually no, it wasn't. Just random DMs I get from people occasionally. I don't interact on that server, and keep it in my "don't open" folder. I only ever open it when I get pinged, which... maybe once every four months?

Overall though nice to know I'm known lol

 

[Synnian]

Sorry to ruin the party and all the fun but there are some things I want to clear up.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure Ryougi actually won against Arc. Iirc, after Ryougi beat Tohno, she proceeded to fight Aec and she word for word said everything was a dream to her and Arc not having a death concept was meaningless to her. I remembered @KingNanaya and I arguing with Marshadow regarding this.

Secondly, I don't think Void Shiki ever fought Arc. Void only ever appeared in KnK epilogue as well as Fgo as Saber shiki. Void doesn't give a shit about fight and even if she fought Arc, she would just erase Arc out of existence.

Thirdly, Ryougi slams Tohno. Idk why this is still a debate. Ryougi got better eyes, better connection to the root as her origin is literally emptiness.

Lastly, Void is indeed omnipotent. This has been pointed out several times in Knk.

Ryougi saying AE not having death is meaningless. She once said that she could kill anything even if it is a god. Nasu went on to say afterwords that she could NOT kill gods. Characters have opinions in-universe too

Secondly, I don't think Void Shiki ever fought Arc. Void only ever appeared in KnK epilogue as well as Fgo as Saber shiki. Void doesn't give a shit about fight and even if she fought Arc, she would just erase Arc out of existence.

I don't particularly think anything says "Void Shiki fought Arc" either. Nobody said that, or if I did, that wasn't my intention. Secondly, Void can't just erase Arcueid from existence. Nasu's said that Arcueid is more powerful than her, and to support this, the very encounter we're talking about is based around Void Shiki sending Ryougi to another dimension/universe to kill her. If she could just "erase her instantly", she would've done it.

Nor can you say "she doesn't want to", because if she cares enough to send someone to ANOTHER UNVERSE, then she would care enough to blip someone.

Thirdly, Ryougi slams Tohno. Idk why this is still a debate. Ryougi got better eyes, better connection to the root as her origin is literally emptiness.

I do not think Ryougi has better eyes than someone outright from the Boundary of Life and Death, outright being able to change the foundation of the world from "life" to "death". In contrast, Ryougi is unable to even kill a broken phone. Literally. Nor does her Origin being awakened mean much in this context. Tohno is far more skilled than her, and even if you want to use MBAA statements (which aren't even consistent with the source material itself), then you have Ryougi Shiki being stated to have the skill of TATARI Nanaya... whose whole thing is that he's a BAD killer, lol.

Lastly, Void is indeed omnipotent. This has been pointed out several times in Knk.

Ominpotent enough to where she can do nothing against a Monster of Gaia, yeah.

 

[Violatas]

ok, I never questioned if the electricity was real, I questioned if it should scale to lightning speed, as all electric discharges aren’t lightning speed. The remake is more explicit in calling it lightning speed,so I’ll give points there.

Ok let's ignore the lighting then. Dead Apostles are explicitly stated to be able to react to bullets after they've been fired. Kiri can't. Moving on

also:

Not reading allat lmao. Not my name either

Kiri's speed feats involve him, while weakened, dodging Kouma's attacks over and over again. That's about it. You can say what you want about the bullet statement, but the fact of the matter is he's able to contend with Kouma even while weakened. Then you can consider the fact that that same Kouma was a challenge with Tohno Shiki after he had adapted to Dreamscape Nanaya's moves, so either this moves into "Louvre and Enhance are faster than most DAA and every single TA" territory, or it leads into a massive loop where nothing makes sense.

Pre Tsukihime Kouma isn't even on the level of his Melty Blood self. He explicitly didn't even know martial arts back then, while in Melty Blood he does, which just tells us he trained some time after fighting Kiri. Also, as I'm sure you know, Shiki's stats heavily fluctuate depending on his mentality, as we see in both Tsukihime and Melty Blood many times.

Actually no, it wasn't. Just random DMs I get from people occasionally. I don't interact on that server, and keep it in my "don't open" folder. I only ever open it when I get pinged, which... maybe once every four months?

I mean personally I'd just recommend leaving it

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Feel free to tell the new users this since they stormed in with "muh you haven't read this and that"
Seems like they only joined to cause trouble, and given their alliance with Neco,

Also You talking to this guy (me) who came from 2015 to 2016 VS Battle Wiki Era.

It was gonna been chaotic here anyway

 

[Tdjwo]

Ryougi saying AE not having death is meaningless. She once said that she could kill anything even if it is a god. Nasu went on to say afterwords that she could NOT kill gods. Characters have opinions in-universe too

It seems you're new here but we don't take what Nasu says in interviews as WoG anymore. Bro is too contradictory in his words and statements. Shiki saying she could kill a god with her eyes doesn't seem like a mere bluff to me considering how MEoDP works.

I don't particularly think anything says "Void Shiki fought Arc" either. Nobody said that, or if I did, that wasn't my intention. Secondly, Void can't just erase Arcueid from existence. Nasu's said that Arcueid is more powerful than her, and to support this, the very encounter we're talking about is based around Void Shiki sending Ryougi to another dimension/universe to kill her. If she could just "erase her instantly", she would've done it.

Firstly, Nasu never said Arc was stronger. I'm guessing you're using that ambiguous ranking statement that says Arc- Void Shiki-True Daemons. Not only is it outdated asf considering the fact that true Daemons are not top 3 currently, but Nasu didn't even rank the three. He simply listed the 3 strongest. And it doesn't even matter, Nasu is not a man of his words.
Void can indeed erase Arc. Literally, bro literally, Void told Mikiya that she could end the entire Nasuverse if she wanted to. That would obviously include Arc. And I don't remember Void sending Ryougi to another dimension to kill Arc. Makes no sense to me.

Nor can you say "she doesn't want to", because if she cares enough to send someone to ANOTHER UNVERSE, then she would care enough to blip someone.

Except Void really doesn't care about anything. She is...Void. Nothing interests her. She said this herself. Did you even watch KnK epilogue? And she never sent anyone to another universe.

I do not think Ryougi has better eyes than someone outright from the Boundary of Life and Death, outright being able to change the foundation of the world from "life" to "death". In contrast, Ryougi is unable to even kill a broken phone. Literally. Nor does her Origin being awakened mean much in this context. Tohno is far more skilled than her, and even if you want to use MBAA statements (which aren't even consistent with the source material itself), then you have Ryougi Shiki being stated to have the skill of TATARI Nanaya... whose whole thing is that he's a BAD killer, lol.

God, it's like I'm arguing with Marshadow all over again. Ryougi's eyes are from the Root itself. She literally kills futures, things beyond what Tohno can even comprehend. Tohno being more skilled than her is irrelevant. That's not my point. Ryougi doesn't need skill. She just kills everything because her eyes is directly linked to the root on a greater level compared to anyone else.

Ominpotent enough to where she can do nothing against a Monster of Gaia, yeah.

I guess this is what happens if you are stuck on reddit and refuse to understand the context of what you read.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Lastly, Void is indeed omnipotent. This has been pointed out several times in Knk.

syn responded to everything else,but I don’t think the personality who was talking through 2 layers of uncertainty should be treated as gospel when relating to herself.

she:
is stated to have many restrictions, and thought of arcs marble phantasm as impressive in all around type moon, a nasu written work. this is also the same year as the knk epilogue.

Is one step away from dying to Goetia, and has to transmit herself to the KnK event to avoid dying.

self admitted her loss to primate murder. Stated reasons why she can’t be a servant above,and even if you say she did, that implies she died in the first place…..lol.

also, this paragraph from the newest adventures volume.

For him as well, it must have been a nerve-racking task. Watching him, I asked, "Master, that thing..."

"Originally, Ergo was chosen as the one to consume the three gods precisely because, as a direct descendant of the Great King of Conquerors, he was born without any striking traits—he was an empty vessel (emptiness)."

I had heard that story before, in the Great Library of Alexandria undersea.

"But if controlling those gods is the goal, then what's needed is the opposite."

"The opposite of emptiness?"

"Memory and personality. When facing gods, what is always required of a person is strong willpower."

I understand the logic. Even when using magecraft, it ultimately depends on the person's character. Mysteries are born where there is strong willpower. And what creates that willpower is surely memory and personality.

"But then—"

"Of course, the saturation of memories progresses even further. It’s like pouring more water into a cup that has long since been full. Ergo must have known this. That's why he hadn't engaged in this kind of memory induction until now, waiting for a solution to the memory saturation."

Void, as nothingness, is disadvantaged against a divine spirit class enemy. Not only that, her use of mystery would be throttled by her lack of personality and willpower.

Also, are we forgetting that angra is literal nothingness as well? all he can do besides revival of his master, is small time wishgranting.

 

[Violatas]

On Void Shiki, I don't think she's truly omnipotent either, but that doesn't affect the Root's tiering in case anyone is wondering so meh