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Question I’m trying to think of the most evil beings in nasuverse

I know Nasu likes making his villains grey but aren’t there still pure evil ones?

Like douman, Ryuunosuke, Ceeleenike, and maybe a few more?

Would Roa be pure evil too?
In it's purest definition, pure evil is for a character that does evil for the sake of it being evil. (like every single villain that want to destroy the world for absolutely no reason)
If you have another goal, no matter how despicable your actions are you are not pure evil.
Roa wanted eternal life, becoming a DA was just a mean to an end. He's not pure evil.
 
In it's purest definition, pure evil is for a character that does evil for the sake of it being evil. (like every single villain that want to destroy the world for absolutely no reason)
If you have another goal, no matter how despicable your actions are you are not pure evil.
Roa wanted eternal life, becoming a DA was just a mean to an end. He's not pure evil.
Celeenike though
 
chat we have copped

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Question I’m trying to think of the most evil beings in nasuverse

I know Nasu likes making his villains grey but aren’t there still pure evil ones?

Like douman, Ryuunosuke, Ceeleenike, and maybe a few more?

Would Roa be pure evil too?
dude stop spamming the general threads with this. You have been asking the same type of stuff in multiple discussion threads
 
So, I finished Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- the other day, and it was great!

But I can see what Nasu meant when he decided to up the scale of the fights a bit, at least in Ciel's Extra Ending.
 
Also, I think Ziz had received Kiri’s glock, complete with some remaining origin bullets.

Shirou can use a new ability for UBW,but this was only because he was taught to store his ME in a gem, and he used that to enhance UBW to enhance all of his weapons with the added attributes of Hrunting
 
How alive is the verse? I want to upgrade/downgrade a couple of things, and add tsukihime re scaling
There’s some juicy stuff, like Ciel being able to block a fraction of the Earth’s rotational energy 5 times. If we low ball and say that it’s 1%, that’s still high 6-A I believe
 
How alive is the verse? I want to upgrade/downgrade a couple of things, and add tsukihime re scaling
There’s some juicy stuff, like Ciel being able to block a fraction of the Earth’s rotational energy 5 times. If we low ball and say that it’s 1%, that’s still high 6-A I believe
Servants would have to downscale, since Ciel’s output is 5x Excaliburs.
 
How alive is the verse? I want to upgrade/downgrade a couple of things, and add tsukihime re scaling
There’s some juicy stuff, like Ciel being able to block a fraction of the Earth’s rotational energy 5 times. If we low ball and say that it’s 1%, that’s still high 6-A I believe
Honestly, Ciel (and everyone else in Tsukihime) might scale a lot higher than that if some scaling people are talking about go through.
 
Honestly, Ciel (and everyone else in Tsukihime) might scale a lot higher than that if some scaling people are talking about go through.
I feel like anything higher than that (besides the funny vampire woman in the remake Ciel Route) would be wank imo


Also, let me know if anything needs to be TLed for the verse, I can probably help, as long as the excerpt isn’t too long
 
 
I feel like anything higher than that (besides the funny vampire woman in the remake Ciel Route) would be wank imo


Also, let me know if anything needs to be TLed for the verse, I can probably help, as long as the excerpt isn’t too long
This actually does not apply to the REMAKE but the original tsukihime and also KNK and Angel Notes the upgrade thats talked about
 
This actually does not apply to the REMAKE but the original tsukihime and also KNK and Angel Notes the upgrade thats talked about
Then I’m doubly confused, only the Angel Notes UO’s have anything at or above 6-A. Nero has at least 6-A durability,but it doesn’t and shouldn’t scale to his AP
 
Then I’m doubly confused, only the Angel Notes UO’s have anything at or above 6-A. Nero has at least 6-A durability,but it doesn’t and shouldn’t scale to his AP
Soil of Genesis is just Nrvnqsr merging together 500 of his own lives into a single mass. Roa even said this technique would allow him to slightly shape the Chaos in his body. There's no reason to believe this wouldn't scale with his strength. After all, it's essentially Nrvnqsr molding a massive portion of his lives into a tool for trapping and restraining, which reflects his overall power. Since he pinned Arcueid down with that continental strength. And all of his lives would be even stronger, nevermind the 999th beast.

Outside of that, there is Sion surviving having the moon slammed on her, with Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power damaging her.

And as you noted, there are continental feats in Angel Notes, like Judge shattering a continent in half with her death cry and Type Jupiter scorching a continent with his core going haywire. And Arcueid is stated more than once to be as strong as Type Moon himself at 100% of her power (Not Archetype Earth, she is much stronger than either), meaning she would scale to the Type tier characters in Notes. And 30% Arcueid would obviously be 30% of that and thus still scale to an extent.

There is also Archetype Earth literally playing pinball with the continents, though obviously that one only scales to the top tiers like Ryougi and Araya.
 
Soil of Genesis is just Nrvnqsr merging together 500 of his own lives into a single mass. Roa even said this technique would allow him to slightly shape the Chaos in his body. There's no reason to believe this wouldn't scale with his strength. After all, it's essentially Nrvnqsr molding a massive portion of his lives into a tool for trapping and restraining, which reflects his overall power. Since he pinned Arcueid down with that continental strength. And all of his lives would be even stronger, nevermind the 999th beast.

Outside of that, there is Sion surviving having the moon slammed on her, with Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power damaging her.

And as you noted, there are continental feats in Angel Notes, like Judge shattering a continent in half with her death cry and Type Jupiter scorching a continent with his core going haywire. And Arcueid is stated more than once to be as strong as Type Moon himself at 100% of her power (Not Archetype Earth, she is much stronger than either), meaning she would scale to the Type tier characters in Notes. And 30% Arcueid would obviously be 30% of that and thus still scale to an extent.

There is also Archetype Earth literally playing pinball with the continents, though obviously that one only scales to the top tiers like Ryougi and Araya.
SOG is a seperate technique taught to him by Roa, 500 lives are just the cost of activation. Not sure it should be treated as a 1 to 1 relation. Regardless, that would only scale to the 999th beast.

That moon was way smaller than the size of the actual moon, the manga makes it obvious.

The percentages of arc aren’t really linear,just see how weak 5-6% arc is in her own route
 
Also ryougi and araya scale in no way to archetype earth, let alone normal arc.
The only characters that scale to her are ORT, CM, maybe U-Olga Marie.
 
SOG is a seperate technique taught to him by Roa, 500 lives are just the cost of activation. Not sure it should be treated as a 1 to 1 relation. Regardless, that would only scale to the 999th beast.
SOG is specifically described as a method for shaping the Chaos within his body, not merely a cost of activation. This technique involves merging 500 of his lives into a single, continental-level construct used to restrain opponents. The resulting construct reflects the combined strength of those 500 lives, indicating that the technique does scale with his power. Thus, the effectiveness of SOG is directly tied to Nrvnqsr's overall strength, as it integrates the abilities of multiple lives into a single entity.

That moon was way smaller than the size of the actual moon, the manga makes it obvious.

And the Moon is way bigger than the real one in other panels for dramatic effect. Things in fiction are not always drawn to scale. We don't even know the size of the land and the castle in the Reality Marble. The ability is canonically creating a mirror replica of the Moon. Fictional works sometimes manipulate scale for visual impact, but this doesn't alter the fundamental nature of the ability. The important factor is the ability’s canonical function, which is to replicate the moon, regardless of its depicted size in any particular panel.

The percentages of arc aren’t really linear,just see how weak 5-6% arc is in her own route
In terms of abilities, sure. In terms of physical power? Nah. That's not how percentages works.

Also ryougi and araya scale in no way to archetype earth, let alone normal arc.

Ryougi literally killed her:

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And Araya curbstomped Ryougi while holding back. The same Ryougi defeated Nrvnqsr easily without needing her sword like agains Araya, and has in fact remarked he was way easier to defeat in comparison:

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Not to mention that both Araya and Ryougi have a greater Origin awakening than Nanaya Shiki, who has consistently proved his superiority over normal Arcueid.

-He speedblitzed her with 17 dissections.

-He has defeated full power Akiha in the Kohaku Route swiftly in a direct confrontation. While her Origami has a slight delay due to being in a dark hallway, Nanaya was rapidly losing life force/dying due to Kohaku being incapacitated, who was sharing her life with him. Despite this, he had enough speed to rush her and decapitate her before being consumed by her Origami ability. And even his inferior personality Tohno seconds earlier moved faster than she could visually track.

This same Akiha is stated to probably exceed a rampaging (Berserker/Red/100%) Arcueid:

“In one of the routes, she ended up inverting and demonstrating her power to its fullest extent That dreadful form, with its fluttering vermillion hair, is probably capable of exceeding even a rampaging Arcueid.” - Tsukihime Plud Period

-He completely annihilates Nrvnqsr Chaos, who specifically stated he was going all out and let out his stronger beasts, with one being a unicorn, which is a phantasmal beast. Nrvnqsr then condenses all of his lives into a singular ultimate body and still gets fodderized, despite moving "as fast as Arcueid". Arcueid says that Nanaya would kill her as well if she tried to interfere. Nrvnqsr then attacks Nanaya one more time, with speed implied to be even greater than before, yet still dies easily.
And Nanaya while doing this was half-dead due to being nearly eaten alive when Tohno was in control earlier and not used to fighting.

(Would have sent scans for these showings, but the site said I cannot post more than 20 images at once, so whatever).

Moving on to Melty Blood, he effortlessly toys with a serious Arcueid to the point of calling her attacks half-assed casually.

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Arcueid then summons her power as Archetype-Earth to kill Nanaya:

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It’s clear that Arcueid wouldn’t have stood a chance without AE the moment Nanaya decided to actually attack. And before you say "But Archetype defeated Nanaya" yes. But Ryougi and Araya are above him in the first place, hence the former killed Archetype. This is mainly to show that those two have a minimum baseline far above normal Arcueid's, who is repeatedly stated to rival Type Moon already at 100%, meaning that Ryougi and Souren scales well above the continental showings.

And yes, Tohno Shiki had an Origin Awakening, with Nanaya being his Original personality and the personality of his soul/Origin, which is Death. It's stated that MEoDP was an innate ability of his and his accident was merely the trigger, along with Nanaya referring to himself as a guiding principle of the body. Kiri said that Kishima Kouma's power derived from his innate possession of "death":

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Kishima Kouma, possessing a semblance of "death" within him, proved too formidable for Kiri Nanaya, who merely pursued death but did not inherently possess it. The narrative suggests that only an individual similarly "born broken" and naturally imbued with death would stand a chance against Kouma. This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as previously highlighted. Kiri also noted that the Kishima specialized in Destruction while the Nanayas specialized in killing. This implies that Kishima's Origin is Destruction, whereas Shiki's is Death, as evidenced by his Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Both him and Kishima are masters of Death, as Destruction is a different form of Death, albeit less fundamental, which explains why he is overall weaker than Nanaya.
Stillness, Araya's Origin, is also heavily intertwined with Death and the Nothingness of Akasha, acting as the passive counterpart of the Root that structures its potential and being an ultimate equilibrium that is beyond even Death's reach. He even has the same desire as Void Shiki's of ending all creation. He is also stated to have recorded Death and embody Hell itself, mirroring Yama (Its ruler and the god of the underworld) himself. Even Kishima himself acknowledged that:

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This is despite Kishima's power being related to Hellfire and even having his ultimate attack named after Yama. This is because Kishima's Destruction only draws from the transformative power and destructive potential of Hell, while Araya is the very nature of Hell itself as static suffering and a judge-like figure like Yama that imposes boundaries and his will on the souls of creation, watching over the cycle of life and death. His complex even reached True Magic and was a microcosm of the world, replicating the interplay of all fundamental forces and all possible types of Death. It was stated to be its own world detached from the laws of physics and to be the embodiment of Taiji, duality and balance, which once again ties in the fundamental nature of Stillness as the boundary managing the logical framework of reality.

So Araya Souren is also a "master of death", but his death represents the ultimate finality and cessation of being that is superior to both Nanaya's "Killing" and Kouma's "Destruction", on top of actually having centuries of combat experience that surpassess anyone in the modern era according to the novel. While Nanaya has done all the aforementioned feats while only having basic training from Kiri. Sion also notes that Shiki's mind surpassess his body and makes him surpass his limits when filled with concentration, which amps his body and phyisical abilities:

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We see this in Ryougi Shiki too in various instances and Lio Shirazumi, so this is presumably an effect of an Origin Awakening, which explains why they are so absurdly powerful in comparison to others. And Araya has the strongest willpower and mental composure in the verse for various reasons, including being able to win against the collective will of mankind.

Ryougi's Origin, of course, is Nothingness/Akasha itself, which is the strongest. The reason she is not at her peak in base is because her fighting style with a knife is just her copying other techniques she has seen around. Her true fighting style she was actually trained in can only be used with her katana, which allows her to access Void's physical capabilities and swordmanship skill, hence she outclassed Araya massively.

TLDR: Both Araya and Ryougi have a far greater source of power than Nanaya Shiki, who is above normal Arcueid and only lost to Archetype. With Ryougi instead defeating Archetype in Base with her knife and Araya being far above that physically, with Ryougi indeed stating that even someone like Nrvnqsr is child's play to defeat compared to him. Heck, Archetype herself is nothing more than Arcueid's own Origin awakening it seems:

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And while we don't know what her Origin really is, it is necessarily below Stillness and Nothingness, who represents Akasha's power and Akasha's essence respectively. So it all checks out even here.
 
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Ryougi literally killed her:
No, no she didn't.

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The actual JP Raw of the thing you're posting makes it ambiguous at best. It's a translation error. What it should ACTUALLY be should be something along the lines of this:
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While that seems to be the same, if you had actually read the route you're speaking of, Void Shiki is referred to as a "god".
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The actual cutscene itself is meant to be left ambiguous, and the actual original version of the guidebook you're basing your argument off of is following it's rules. Ryougi doesn't even have an opening to kill Archetype Earth in the first place, with the latter persona actually openly making fun of what a hopeless situation she's in.

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Overall, your argument is heavily banking off of a statement made by a third-party company, one that doesn't even follow the "Ryougi > AE" train of thought in the first place if you look at the original text with another translation.

Ryougi was openly written to be weaker than Tohno Shiki, much less Nanaya Shiki, with the former needing to be explicitly written to be holding back in order for the writer to give Ryougi Shiki a plausible chance at beating the character in the first place.

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There's even unique dialogue if the player loses the fight in general, confirming that Tohno was actively NOT trying to harm Ryougi in any capacity. If you've actually seen Kara no Kyoukai, you'd know there's an entire movie dedicated to pointing out how big of a nerd "not wanting to kill something" is for people like both Shikis, whose fighting styles are explicitly lethal in nature.

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The same Ryougi defeated Nrvnqsr easily without needing her sword like agains Araya, and has in fact remarked he was way easier to defeat in comparison:
While this is undeniably true, you fail to consider... why such a thing would be possible?
Both Shiki's have the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, which explicitly are the hard-counter to Nero Chaos' abilities. While you can say "she would destroy him just like Tohno did", this isn't exactly a case of "oh, she's overwhelmingly powerful!!". Nero's main trait is durability, stamina, and endurance. A highly weakened Arcueid was mowing through his creatures like paper before she ran out of stamina. Ryougi simply bypasses his only strengths.

Moving on:
And yes, Tohno Shiki had an Origin Awakening, with Nanaya being his Original personality and the personality of his soul/Origin, which is Death. It's stated that MEoDP was an innate ability of his and his accident was merely the trigger, along with Nanaya referring to himself as a guiding principle of the body. Kiri said that Kishima Kouma's power derived from his innate possession of "death":
This is blatantly just.... not true? Tohno Shiki has not awakened his origin, and absolutely nothing remotely implies that. Nanaya Shiki is constantly said to be an "extremely gentle child" who didn't want to hurt anyone.

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Not to mention the concept of "TATARI Nanaya is his Origin Incarnate!!!" doesn't even work in this context in the first place. As Nanaya says himself, he's an entirely separate and most importantly: FICTIONAL personality that was artificially created.

The ACTUAL Nanaya we see throughout the story shows signs of being NOTHING like TATARI or Dreamscape Nanaya: The most important one, is that he has absolute no interest or desire in killing people.

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What you're referring to an "origin awakening" is... literally nothing? Tohno Shiki is a psychopath, someone who has to deal with his own urges for murder. You can say this is his Origin, but it was not awakened. If it was, then he would CONSTANTLY be trying to kill people, like we see with Lio (someone with a violent Origin). Even if you want to say his Origin is "death" in the first place... that's headcanon.

Nanaya Shiki even comments during the 17 pieces scene, outright saying "hey, this is TOHNO SHIKI doing this, I don't understand why he's doing this."

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Next, there's another big problem with your argument, being...

Kishima Kouma, possessing a semblance of "death" within him, proved too formidable for Kiri Nanaya, who merely pursued death but did not inherently possess it. The narrative suggests that only an individual similarly "born broken" and naturally imbued with death would stand a chance against Kouma. This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as previously highlighted. Kiri also noted that the Kishima specialized in Destruction while the Nanayas specialized in killing. This implies that Kishima's Origin is Destruction, whereas Shiki's is Death, as evidenced by his Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Both him and Kishima are masters of Death, as Destruction is a different form of Death, albeit less fundamental, which explains why he is overall weaker than Nanaya.
Stillness, Araya's Origin, is also heavily intertwined with Death and the Nothingness of Akasha, acting as the passive counterpart of the Root that structures its potential and being an ultimate equilibrium that is beyond even Death's reach. He even has the same desire as Void Shiki's of ending all creation. He is also stated to have recorded Death and embody Hell itself, mirroring Yama (Its ruler and the god of the underworld) himself. Even Kishima himself acknowledged that:
These are not Origins. Not even close. Instead, what they comment on, is the concept of "natural killers" and "unnatural killers"

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TATARI even comments on this himself, calling Tohno Shiki it directly.

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They are beings who are born 'broken'. They naturally have the ability to kill with immense skill, beyond what normal people can do. This is arguably the most explicit thing about both characters, and I'm genuinely surprised you haven't picked up on it. Take Arcueid's description, matching the same thing TATARI and Kiri talk about:
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People like Kishima and Shiki, are born 'broken'. Natural Killers, beyond normal people who have to learn how to kill.
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Kishima Kouma, possessing a semblance of "death" within him, proved too formidable for Kiri Nanaya, who merely pursued death but did not inherently possess it.
While this is true, even assuming this WAS talking about "origins" (which it is not), this doesn't make people with Origins awakened better than people without Origins awakened.
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Once again, this is about "natural born killers" and "unnatural" killers. There is a "horizon" that one can reach, which is where people like Kouma and Tohno are naturally at. To be blunt, they "start" where other people "end".

However, once again, this is NOT an instant win for people born like this. Red Demon God makes this even more explicit, with it all but saying that Kiri was outright more powerful than Kouma was, but just severely weakened.
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So, to summarize:
-theme of story is “Kiri was going to win”
-Said over and over again that Kiri was massively weakened
-Narration outright says if a weakened Kiri had hit Kouma literally any harder, Kouma's head would’ve exploded
-If you want to include the Remake, Arcueid outright agrees with the line of thinking that "Kiri would smoke Kouma"

I may... genuinely want to ask if you've read the stories involved? I'm not sure how you've gotten to that line of thinking, because neither the story nor the author supports it.



So Araya Souren is also a "master of death", but his death represents the ultimate finality and cessation of being that is superior to both Nanaya's "Killing" and Kouma's "Destruction", on top of actually having centuries of combat experience that surpassess anyone in the modern era according to the novel. While Nanaya has done all the aforementioned feats while only having basic training from Kiri. Sion also notes that Shiki's mind surpassess his body and makes him surpass his limits when filled with concentration, which amps his body and phyisical abilities:
As I've already explained before, no. Araya is not a "master of death", or anything around the sort. He had to develop and train his abilities, and to be blunt, nothing even implies that he's anywhere near Kouma or Tohno. However, I do want to question this:
While Nanaya has done all the aforementioned feats while only having basic training from Kiri.
While, again, I genuinely may need to ask if you've ever read the story you're talking about? Because Shiki explicitly has everything the Nanaya Clan has - in fact, he has MORE than that, given what's implied.
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While, again, Nanaya was only taught "the basics" by Kiri (as Nanaya Shiki is NOT 'born broken', while Tohno Shiki is), the text openly says that he had been copying Kiri's movements while he was practicing on his own. And from what we see in Kagetsu Tohya, he fully mastered everything before even the age of six, putting him far above someone like Ryougi Shiki, who even while much older, was still openly weaker than her father, much less ANY Nanaya Clan member.

He even openly has their ultimate technique.
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Sion also notes that Shiki's mind surpassess his body and makes him surpass his limits when filled with concentration, which amps his body and phyisical abilities:

While while true and valid, I'm not sure why you would bother explaining this? This is true for ALL Nanaya, not just Shiki.
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We see this in Ryougi Shiki too in various instances and Lio Shirazumi, so this is presumably an effect of an Origin Awakening, which explains why they are so absurdly powerful in comparison to others. And Araya has the strongest willpower and mental composure in the verse for various reasons, including being able to win against the collective will of mankind.

As I've said before: No, this is not "an effect of origin awakening", nor are they even "absurdly powerful in comparison to others". Ryougi in Fate/Grand Order openly JUMPED a Pre-Camelot Mash and barely was able to give her the equivalent of a papercut, only barely touching her armor. This would make her... starving refugee level, considering she had trouble with Saruhan during Camelot before her massive power-amps.

Ironically, this stays consistent with KnK, with Knife Ryougi being HYPED UP by the ability to travel... three meters per second in book three.
Kara no Kyoukai Book Three
Shiki starts to run. Her speed is incredible, despite the pooling water and violent wind. It should not take more than three seconds to reduce the distance between them from ten meters to zero. Enough time to bring Fujino's frail body to the ground and stab her in her heart. But even that speed cannot match the speed of sight. Shiki has to close in on her target while Fujino only has to look at her target. For the two, that difference of three seconds is too long.

Even then, she's STILL openly weaker than Fujino, a ******* branch family member of the Demon Hunter Organization, having to rely on an environmental advantage in order to beat her. This trend continues with other fights with DHO members, like Kirie Fujou, inwhich Ryougi has to rely on third-party assistance via the mechanical arm that Touko made for her.
 
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TLDR: Both Araya and Ryougi have a far greater source of power than Nanaya Shiki, who is above normal Arcueid and only lost to Archetype. With Ryougi instead defeating Archetype in Base with her knife and Araya being far above that physically, with Ryougi indeed stating that even someone like Nrvnqsr is child's play to defeat compared to him. Heck, Archetype herself is nothing more than Arcueid's own Origin awakening it seems:
First of all: No, neither Araya nor Ryougi are anywhere near that of even Kiri Nanaya, much less Tohno Shiki at his peak. Secondly, no, Archetype Earth is NOT an Origin Awakening. It's VERY explicitly NOT. The text you even quoted outright said that it was NOT an Origin Awakening, but something similar. If you had actually read Kagetsu Tohya, you'd know what this is.
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All in all... genuinely, I do not think you've read Tsukihime given everything you've said so far, but this is my opinion, so we'll see.

Also, apologies for splitting this into three posts. First time using the forum, had everything written in one, then found out about the image limit.
 
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