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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Everything after your quote is extrapolating well beyond what the sentence actually said, and that isn't what the quote is actually talking about. It's just explaining Carter's ego death and the multiplicity of selves within the archetype. Yog is explicitly stated to be one of multiple archetypes in the void.
And yet Carter is not a fool. He is very smart for a human who actually understands nature of the Yog-Sothtoh and yet Carter passed the Ultimate Gate to know the truth about creation. And truth he achieved. There is nothing indicates that Carter somehow extols or overestimates the nature of the Yog.
 
There is nothing indicates that Carter somehow extols or overestimates the nature of the Yog.
What he said wasn't an overestimation. Your interpretation of it was. You're ignoring later information to hyperfixate on the phrase "all in one" and assuming it means complete Monism when it doesn't.
 
What he said wasn't an overestimation. Your interpretation of it was. You're ignoring later information to hyperfixate on the phrase "all in one" and assuming it means complete Monism when it doesn't.
About other archetypes.. There are just Outer Gods who are clearly below the Yog-Sothoth (except maybe Azathoth). There is no evidence to underestimating Carter's words, and even more so Yog-Sothoth himself. If Carter claims that the Yog-Sothoth is everything and everything is Yog-Sothoth - that's true. If Yog-Sothoth (who is literally omniscient) tells that Ultimate Mystery lies beyond Ultimate Void - that's true.
 
There are just Outer Gods who are clearly below the Yog-Sothoth
Yes, Yog-Sothoth is chief among the archetypes, but there are indeed multiple archetypes. Which means he is not a Monad.

If Carter claims that the Yog-Sothoth is everything and everything is Yog-Sothoth - that's true.
Carter never said that.

If Yog-Sothoth (who is literally omniscient) tells that Ultimate Mystery lies beyond Ultimate Void - that's true.
Yog never said that.
 
Carter never said that.
In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.'
Yes, Yog-Sothoth is chief among the archetypes, but there are indeed multiple archetypes. Which means he is not a Monad.
Other archetypes are lesser than Yog-Sothoth who encompasses them as part of itself.
Yog never said that.
“Randolph Carter,” IT seemed to say, “MY manifestations on your planet’s extension, the Ancient Ones, have sent you as one who would lately have returned to small lands of dream which he had lost, yet who with greater freedom has risen to greater and nobler desires and curiosities. You wished to sail up golden Oukranos, to search out forgotten ivory cities in orchid-heavy Kled, and to reign on the opal throne of Ilek-Vad, whose fabulous towers and numberless domes rise mighty toward a single red star in a firmament alien to your earth and to all matter. Now, with the passing of two Gates, you wish loftier things. You would not flee like a child from a scene disliked to a dream beloved, but would plunge like a man into that last and inmost of secrets which lies behind all scenes and dreams.

“What you wish, I have found good; and I am ready to grant that which I have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet—five times only to those you call men, or those resembling them. I am ready to shew you the Ultimate Mystery, to look on which is to blast a feeble spirit. Yet before you gaze full at that last and first of secrets you may still wield a free choice, and return if you will through the two Gates with the Veil still unrent before your eyes.”
 
Nothing in this could be summarized as "Yog is everything." In fact, it says Yog is "allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep." Meaning there is a distinction between the animating essence and Yog.

Nothing in this says "the Ultimate Mystery is beyond the void."

Other archetypes are lesser than Yog-Sothoth who encompasses them as part of itself.
Overtly headcanon.
 
Nothing in this could be summarized as "Yog is everything." In fact, it says Yog is "allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep." Meaning there is a distinction between the animating essence and Yog.
See a context. Carter directly describes that Yog-Sothoth is one-in-all not in terms of one universe, but in terms of all of unbounded existence.
Nothing in this says "the Ultimate Mystery is beyond the void."
Carter refers to Ultimate Mystery as final cosmic reality which makes it beyond Ultimate Void.
Overtly headcanon.
Considering context about "All-in-One" it can be logically said that Supreme Archetype contains lesser archetypes as well. Just aspects of it's limitless self.
 
Carter directly describes that Yog-Sothoth is one-in-all not in terms of one universe, but in terms of all of unbounded existence.
He describes Yog as "allied to" the animating essence of unbounded existence. Nothing actually says he's identical with all of existence itself. You're extrapolating that the phrase "All in One and One in All" describes all of existence, rather than just the various facets and the loss of Carter's individual identity.

Carter refers to Ultimate Mystery as final cosmic reality which makes it beyond Ultimate Void.
This is specious reasoning. He made it to the Ultimate Void and Yog asked him if he wanted the veil lifted, he said yes, and he learned about the archetypes. The mystery isn't "beyond" the void. It's not an entity or being. It is a set of information that he received about the void and the people who live there.

Precisely. Yog is simply one among the several archetypes -- people of the abyss. Yog specifically represents thinkers and wizards. He is chief among them, but there is literally no information in the text suggesting all of the archetypes are part of him.
 
You're extrapolating that the phrase "All in One and One in All" describes all of existence, rather than just the various facets and the loss of Carter's individual identity.
And yet Carter perfectly understand nature of the Yog-Sothoth. Why you're try to argue that "All-in-One" refers just to Carter's loss of individual identity if the very context of this whole passage says that the Yog is an all-encompassing unity not within a scope of a single space-time continuum, but contains (and thus connected to) the whole existence?
The mystery isn't "beyond" the void. It's not an entity or being.
Ultimate Mystery, in fact, is Yog-Sothoth itself who knows and tells this Mystery to lesser beings.
but there is literally no information in the text suggesting all of the archetypes are part of him.
This information comes from first point.
 
And yet Carter perfectly understand nature of the Yog-Sothoth
You already tried this. I am not claiming Carter misunderstood, I am saying that you are misunderstanding.

if the very context of this whole passage says that the Yog is an all-encompassing unity
Because the passage doesn't say any of that. It makes it quite clear that the only unity that Yog encompasses is that of his facets. Not the other archetypes or existence itself.

Ultimate Mystery, in fact, is Yog-Sothoth itself who knows and tells this Mystery to lesser beings.
Also headcanon.

This information comes from first point.
Which, itself, is assumptive.

You're working backwards from a foregone conclusion. You chose one of multiple possible interpretations of a single phrase in a Monadic way and are superimposing that interpretation onto every other element of the story, even where it is clearly ill-fitting or -- in fact -- directly contradicted. I don't see this conversation being productive any further.
 
Yes, so use Nasu's descriptions of them. Not Lovecraft's. Don't use scans from Lovecraft's works to prove things about Nasu's works.
Now I'm arguing about CM Yog as I see it's description in books. For Nasuverse Yog I have other thoughts which unrelated from CM's description (even if they're same tho).
 
Tbh what i know about a monad is:
1.It means "one" because 1 in philosophy is the supreme number upon which all other numbers including infinity is contingent upon
2.It is a solution to the philosophical problem of one over many
3.It unifies all things possible but also isn't any of the things it unifies thus has only one part, and it contains all things in potential and not manifest
4.It is fully abstract and beyond time and space
the root fills all criteria
 
Shouldn’t Gilgamesh have a possibly high godly regen ability in his game key for possessing ten crowns and the same authority as BB ?
 
Kama (Summer) [FGO Material XIV]

# Kama

Class Avenger

True Name Kama

Gender Female

Source Indian Mythology

Region India

Alignment Neutral Evil

Height 156cm

Weight 46 kg

Strength B

Endurance C+

Agility A

Mana EX

Luck D

Noble Phantasm EX

Character Creator Hazuki Minase

Character Design ReDrop

Character Voice Noriko Shitaya

Appearance in Main Works Fate/Grand Order

# Class Skills

Avenger B

"You've become cute these days" A skill obtained to avenge affectionate words like such from Parvati. As the Demon King of the Sixth Heaven, Mara, she has a reason to take revenge on the Buddha, as the God of Love, Kama, she has a reason to take revenge on Shiva. She seems to have increased the rank of this Skill by forcing this interpretation. Increases own NP generation rate when taking attack She easily gathers hatred and resentment (As a result of her bold moves this is especially true of the group that loves Master)

Oblivion Correction B

Avengers never forget. Whether it's that her body was burnt by Shiva. Or that there was someone she couldn't defeat despite all her love

Self-Replenishment (Magical Energy) A

Her magical energy will forever continue to flow until she accomplishes her revenge

Independent Manifestation E

A special skill. The corruption of love originally had the ability to appear anywhere... but now she can only manifest in front of the Master. As such the Skills rank has been lowered

Magic Resistance A

Cancel spells of A-Rank or below. Modern mages are unable to harm her with their magecraft

Riding A

All vehicles and all creatures but those of Phantasmal Beast and Divine Beast-rank can be used as mounts. Kama's mount is said to be a parrot. This time she'll be riding a float shaped like the sea monster Makara

Divine Core of the Demon King(?) B

Kama says that when got her summer spirit origin her "Divine Core of the Love God" changed and this new skill shows that she is a terrifying Demon King. With this she claims that her "Mara side is coming out strongly" despite that fact however it is pretty much hearsay as the impression she gives hasn't changed at all Same effect as Divine Core of the Love God

# Personal Skills

Makara Floating A

A perfect skill for summer waterplay. Kama is said to also have ties to Makara, a sea monster from Indian mythology. Makara is also the vehicle (vahana) of Varuna, the water goddess, and Ganga, goddess of the river Ganges, which means it has the power to control water. In addition to being comfortable to float on, Kama's mysterious shark and crocodile floaties can overcome even the roughest waves. At times, they can be even faster and more maneuverable than a jet ski.

Hollow Evil EX

As a result of acquiring an Avenger Spirit Origin, Kama, who was connected to the universe thanks to Shiva incinerating her, became even more deeply intertwined with the unusual magecraft temperament of the girl whose body she inhabits. Consequently, her summer version is able to attack by manipulating a unique form of magical energy. Though the fires of depravity will never disappear, this skill does help to lessen them considerably. That's why there appear to be fewer flames burning her body in her Third Ascension.

Midsummer Sea Mara EX

This skill demonstrates just how seriously the Demon King is taking summer. You can think of it as the summer version of Mara Pāpīyas. It suppresses her usual unmotivated attitude and makes Kama a little more...proactive. Who knows? It may even prompt her to respond to requests she would normally turn down because they're "too much trouble" with a more accommodating "Eh, why not? It is summer, after all."

# Noble Phantasm

『Kama Rūpāstra』

Rank: B

NP Type: Anti-Personnel

Range: 2 - 10

Maximum Targets: 10

With Love Comes Summer Romance.

A version of Kama's flower arrow (Sammohana) that changed its appearance to better suit its use during summer: a cute floatie ring that couldn't be better-suited to a pretty young girl. This weapon, for a weapon it is, makes anyone who sees her fall in love. Once this NP hits its target, its sheer corruptive power bursts out in the form of a shadowy giant. Not even Kama herself knows why that happens.

"Rūpāstra" is another of Kama's names. It means "one who possesses the weapon of beauty."

『Mara Śūnyatā』

Rank: B

NP Type: Anti-Personnel

Range: 2 - 10

Maximum Targets: 100

With Romance Comes Depraved Love.

An invitation to depravity, performed while Kama's Mara aspect is openly dominant, this is a dark universe that ultimately leads to love. While that part may not be meaningfully different than usual, in this Spirit Origin, it manifests as something deeper, and more hollow.

Anyone who falls into this depraved darkness will never escape it. One could say this entire space is a void transformed by flame. Instead of Love Flame, which brazenly incinerates those it touches, this dark, empty flame dissolves its targets with nary a sound.

# Character

First Person Pronoun Watashi

Second Person Pronoun Anata

Third Person Pronoun Kare/Kanojo

Master Master-san, Master (when serious)

# Personality

Compered to when she was an Assassin she wants to hang around and mess around with Master more. he wants to be by their side always and monopolize their gaze, not necessarily because that's what she wants but because she wants Master to fall in love with her. In other words a manifestation of Mara's aggressive side(or so she claims)

"Well since it a swimsuit, you can look wherever you want, so it should be an easy victory for me. I'll even help you if you run into any trouble, but I don't think you'll shift your attention to other swimsuit Servants after that, right?"

# Motivation and Attitude Towards the Master

Her basic stance hasn't changed and she still isn't conscious of wanting to be loved. (Even if such a wish exists it's deep desire that will never surface) She has completely devoted all of her attacks into corrupting Master For that reason she nervous when they counter attack

# Character Status in FGO

Kama was thinking...

"Am I not being taken seriously anymore? Are they treating me like a child, thinking they can keep me in check just by giving me cake? I mean, I'm certainly not about to start taking my job as the god of love seriously or anything, but everyone not taking me seriously kind of pisses me off, too.

Pārvatī used to be so wary of me, but now she just smiles and says things like, 'Try not to get up to too much mischief now, okay?' Well, if she's going to harass me like that, I'll just have to remind her why she was scared of me in the first place, won't I"

And so, Kama made up her mind. She was going to show everyone that she was not only the god of love, but also the terrifying Demon King of Depravity! The arrival of summer presented the perfect opportunity.

"You know, this is a good chance for me to put everything I have into corrupting Master once and for all. There's no way I can fail in a swimsuit, especially once I bring out my affectionate (laughs) side. Then I'll have my revenge against Pārvatī and everyone else who's been humiliating me by treating me like a damn kid! I can't wait to see the looks on their faces when they realize their mistake!"

Kama claims that this new version of her is her Mara side showing through more than usual, which is why she's being bolder and more demonic (frankly, "impish" is a better word here) with her attempts to corrupt Master. But how is that actually different from usual? Honestly? It isn't. She's the same Kama she always is. The only real difference is that she's now more openly trying to seduce Master into depravity in a way she feels fits the summer season.

What's more, the extreme optimizations she's made for offense have left her defenses incredibly weak...which is to say, she's a pushover now. Even when she suggests things like sharing a soda with a double straw, she blushes crimson when it actually comes time to drink. This is why Pārvatī no longer considers her a threat. It hardly takes a goddess to see that her attempts to seduce Master into a life of depravity will inevitably end in abject failure.

That said, even in this summer Spirit Origin, Kama is still just as much herself and Mara as ever. That ratio is six parts Kama to four parts Mara in her usual form, and four parts Kama to six parts Mara in her Beast form. But now, incredibly enough...!

"Kama may insist she's seven parts Mara right now, but she's actually still mostly Kama, as usual." (Source: Pārvatī)

# Normal Weapons

Floatie

Chakram

Something she doesn't really understand

# Related Characters

Swimsuit Okita

(I haven't been able to measure her yet)

Rengoku Chan

A little girl that arouses your desire to protect? Won't she put it on? If it's okay for her to look innocent like that, then I'll be doing that from now on.

Swimsuit Caenis

I think it annoying that they cation me for all sorts of things but the other side of me likes them for being cheeky

Swimsuit Corday

Pretty formidable....

Swimsuit Anastasia

If our interest align we can play pranks together

Swimsuit Sei Shonagon

Is it possible to be that savvy?.... As a matter of fact she might be my number one enemy

Amour (Karen)

The Love God of the West. I don't think I want to get involved with her

Durga, Kali

Eh, you don't think I'm particularly scary!?

Come over here and say it to my face then (while bringing out a threatening shadow)

# Comment from Illustrator

The First Ascension had cute flowers, while the Third Ascension had the image of a God (Demon King) those two were set from the start but the Second Ascension was a two mouth long struggle. The work was truly weighing on my mind at that time. I didn't notice it at all when it was made, but when I looked at it again after it was implemented, I was surprised at how great the Third Ascension looked. I felt like if that was safe, I could do anything. I drew as many ideas and differences as I could and sent them to them so that they could choose and use them,and they decided to use them all. I felt so thankful(ReDrop)
 


Andromeda is this year's Valentine's Day Servant, and her NP is the monstrous whale, Cetus, she was supposed to be sacrificed to!

Also, uh, I think her NP is at minimum multi-galaxy level (maybe even Low 1-C to 1-C), just based on appearances.
 
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I like that the Saber verdict seems to acknowledge that Fate can be rather wild, and thus used different ends ranging from only merely Mountain level, then slowly going up the scaling. And while not in the verdict, they mentioned in the Heroic Spirit section about the more "wild" and iffy stuff like the Kiara/Roa statement for people who buy Fate at that level.

That way, they covered both the low ends for people who buy Fate at the lowest possible level, and the vague highest ends as well if some wild people believe those wacky ends. Very fair on their part, even if they were for Team Saber!
 
How strong would Melusine be based on Wiki standards?




Another question: Do Divine spirits or full gods have a baseline AP? Why do gods like Ishtar not have a true form/not pseudo servant key? is it due to there not being a baseline for Divine spirits? What exactly is the dimensionality to which gods scale?
 
How strong would Melusine be based on Wiki standards?




Another question: Do Divine spirits or full gods have a baseline AP? Why do gods like Ishtar not have a true form/not pseudo servant key? is it due to there not being a baseline for Divine spirits? What exactly is the dimensionality to which gods scale?
no clue. I don't like FGO. Tdjwo enjoys gacha hell, so he might know
 
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