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ok then
this is a stomp, along with Medaka, Eragon, Ragyo, Misogi and probably a few more
this is a stomp, along with Medaka, Eragon, Ragyo, Misogi and probably a few more
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Make JoJo Spam Again - Weather Report vs Gilgamesh
- Thread starter Sir_Ovens
- Start date
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Make your choice. Either WR/HW has its everything nulled via Servant immunity, or all of its abilities are heavily resisted to the point of being mostly ineffective.Hl3 or bust said:
And seriously, what's with this argument that HW can hit Gilgamesh from the inside? Have I not made it clear that Servants have no insides to speak of? There's no hole in their bodies to stuff full of gases or water. They are literally clumps of magical energy molded to look like humans. Look like them, not function like them.
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Hl3 or bust said:
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Because people die when they are killed.
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Liquid. Magical. Energy.
It's magical energy made to imitate their original human shapes. Their blood is magic. Their saliva is magic. Their ******* **** is magic. I swear I have said this a billion times by now, but no one seems to read through the entire thread before trying to debate.
Edit: Took out some unnecessary rudeness.
It's magical energy made to imitate their original human shapes. Their blood is magic. Their saliva is magic. Their ******* **** is magic. I swear I have said this a billion times by now, but no one seems to read through the entire thread before trying to debate.
Edit: Took out some unnecessary rudeness.
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i have read your posts
it's just that your explaination would require at least 5 of Gil's matches to be removed
it's just that your explaination would require at least 5 of Gil's matches to be removed
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- Thread starter
- #210
So you're telling me that Base Gil, by virtue of being a servant, can't be killed by anything less than a 5-A non-magical and non-historical attack?
Like Hl3 said, that would make a few of his matches unfair.
Like Hl3 said, that would make a few of his matches unfair.
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Someone bring Rep to come here.
Actually Ragyo can stay, if Nui vs Sigurd is fair, why not Gil vs Ragyo?
Actually Ragyo can stay, if Nui vs Sigurd is fair, why not Gil vs Ragyo?
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because that most likely isn't as well
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t h e n W e a t h e r R e p o r t c a n a f f e c t G i lSolacis said:
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And Gil promptly resists all of that affectation via magic resist.
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Supernatural gets resisted
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Yikes, that's not how it works. From SBA:Solacis said:
Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses.
Stands are not similar to magic in Fate as far as I'm aware, and as such it would not be treated as if it were.
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Just pointing out Gil lost to Medaka, Eragon is a stomp (was gonna submit it for removal), Ragyo is fine dunno about the others.Hl3 or bust said:
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T H E N I T G E T S R E S I S T E D.
When have I EVER disputed this?
Gilgamesh tanked a blast from Excalibur at the end of Fate/Zero while wearing his armor. Excaliblasts are focused 6-C attacks that atomize even at range. It took taking one at point blank range at the end of Fate/Stay Night's Fate route to penetrate both the armor and wound Gilgamesh severely enough for Arturia to win. HW's 6-C attacks are widespread environmental damage, easily shrugged off when taking into account Gil's additional defenses.
When have I EVER disputed this?
Gilgamesh tanked a blast from Excalibur at the end of Fate/Zero while wearing his armor. Excaliblasts are focused 6-C attacks that atomize even at range. It took taking one at point blank range at the end of Fate/Stay Night's Fate route to penetrate both the armor and wound Gilgamesh severely enough for Arturia to win. HW's 6-C attacks are widespread environmental damage, easily shrugged off when taking into account Gil's additional defenses.
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@Anon
There is a rematch with Medaka and Gil and ended incon, it just, never updated to his page.
There is a rematch with Medaka and Gil and ended incon, it just, never updated to his page.
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Stands are nothing more than special abilities manifested through a pseudo-corporeal entity. There are plenty of counterparts in the Nasuverse for that, just that they're likely considered wasteful when a magus can just actualize the effects themselves. Hell, Servants can be considered Stands in their own way. It doesn't matter. Less compatible verses have been equalized before, and it's not like you can explain just what exactly Stands are.ProfessorLord said:
What's the difference between a regular Stand and Anubis, for example?
Not to mention, by your logic, anyone that fights a Stand user can't see Stands because according to you, verses don't equalize that way.
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I need specifics, Solacis. Demonstrate to me without a reasonable doubt that Stands = magic within the Nasuverse. You can't just tell me there are plenty of counterparts, I don't know Fate whatsoever. Explain like I'm a noobie.
Star Platinum and Anubis were both created out of an invisible spirit energy, Anubis just has its energy stored inside of a sword. Star Platinum is free-forming and is not stored anywhere.
No, anyone without a reasonable counterpart in their verse cannot see Stands. They need to function similarly.
Star Platinum and Anubis were both created out of an invisible spirit energy, Anubis just has its energy stored inside of a sword. Star Platinum is free-forming and is not stored anywhere.
No, anyone without a reasonable counterpart in their verse cannot see Stands. They need to function similarly.
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What defines "functioning similarly"?
If it traces back to the source of energy, then both systems stem from spiritual energy. In the Nasuverse, there's internal energy passively generated in the soul, and there's natural energy generated by the consciousness of the planet. Magecraft is essentially anything that takes this energy and uses it to create an effect. There are hundreds of branches of magecraft, which include puppetry, necromancy, communing with spirits, manipulating souls, manipulating minds, manipulating elements, etc. These effects can be extremely specific or extremely broad depending on the spell in question, but they all boil down to using spiritual energy generated from the soul to create an effect.
Stands, according to the JoJo wiki, are defined as personifications of life energy whose abilities are given physical form, and embody, to an extent, the user's psyche.
Taking this into account, note that in the Nasuverse, the mind and soul are inherently linked. Magecraft is directly influenced and manipulated by the Magus' mind, and takes form using energy generated in the soul. Theoretically, Magi can create or manipulate entities/objects to manifest specific effects in the same way as Stands, like Kayneth's Volumen Hydrargyrum. Magi can also create automated entities with their own consciousness, like Zelretch's Kaleidosticks Ruby and Sapphire. Magi have also manipulated actual spirits and non-corporeals before, as necromancy is a magical discipline and Servants are inherently summoned via magecraft. Magi who have lived for long enough can manifest their souls directly, influenced by their mental state, to access unique abilities via Reality Marbles.
If it traces back to the source of energy, then both systems stem from spiritual energy. In the Nasuverse, there's internal energy passively generated in the soul, and there's natural energy generated by the consciousness of the planet. Magecraft is essentially anything that takes this energy and uses it to create an effect. There are hundreds of branches of magecraft, which include puppetry, necromancy, communing with spirits, manipulating souls, manipulating minds, manipulating elements, etc. These effects can be extremely specific or extremely broad depending on the spell in question, but they all boil down to using spiritual energy generated from the soul to create an effect.
Stands, according to the JoJo wiki, are defined as personifications of life energy whose abilities are given physical form, and embody, to an extent, the user's psyche.
Taking this into account, note that in the Nasuverse, the mind and soul are inherently linked. Magecraft is directly influenced and manipulated by the Magus' mind, and takes form using energy generated in the soul. Theoretically, Magi can create or manipulate entities/objects to manifest specific effects in the same way as Stands, like Kayneth's Volumen Hydrargyrum. Magi can also create automated entities with their own consciousness, like Zelretch's Kaleidosticks Ruby and Sapphire. Magi have also manipulated actual spirits and non-corporeals before, as necromancy is a magical discipline and Servants are inherently summoned via magecraft. Magi who have lived for long enough can manifest their souls directly, influenced by their mental state, to access unique abilities via Reality Marbles.
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If what you're saying is true than I agree with you, the two seem to be similar enough.
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It feels a bit redundantly asinine to bring up Verse Equalization as a doubtful thing in this match, even if it was resolved.
Remember, Stands are very much supernatural unless you wanna show me any part of JoJo that puts it down to anything actually scientific or with a sensible explanation that doesn't rely on bullshit laws of reality. Life energy manifested into a thing that has super powers. As Repp said before, even a person lifting a rock up and throwing it at someone has mystery by virtue of the fact a goddamn human shouldn't be able to do that if the rock is massive. Remember, Kuzuki Sensei couldn't hurt Archer not because he was a normal human not empowered, but because the bridge between a servant and a human is too big. He's using a strange fighting skill that barely anyone knows he learned in the mountains, that's already enough mystery.
Stands are more than enough mystery and supernatural to affect servants, I am not sure why this was even doubted.
Remember, Stands are very much supernatural unless you wanna show me any part of JoJo that puts it down to anything actually scientific or with a sensible explanation that doesn't rely on bullshit laws of reality. Life energy manifested into a thing that has super powers. As Repp said before, even a person lifting a rock up and throwing it at someone has mystery by virtue of the fact a goddamn human shouldn't be able to do that if the rock is massive. Remember, Kuzuki Sensei couldn't hurt Archer not because he was a normal human not empowered, but because the bridge between a servant and a human is too big. He's using a strange fighting skill that barely anyone knows he learned in the mountains, that's already enough mystery.
Stands are more than enough mystery and supernatural to affect servants, I am not sure why this was even doubted.
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Because the definition of supernatural in one verse doesn't necessarily correlate with supernatural in another verse. We don't go off single word blanket statements such as "any human written in the deathnote will die" because that then means Goku is immune on the basis that he's a saiyan, not a human.
Instead of holding these single word blanket statements as undying truth we go based on the mechanics and deeper meaning of the status effect. In the case of a deathnote, it has objectively been shown to affect bipedal mammalians and therefore there is no reason it cannot kill Goku just because his DNA is a little different from a human. There are thousands of examples like this that I can spin up if you'd like.
That's why it was doubted in case you're wondering. Welcome to VsBattles.
Instead of holding these single word blanket statements as undying truth we go based on the mechanics and deeper meaning of the status effect. In the case of a deathnote, it has objectively been shown to affect bipedal mammalians and therefore there is no reason it cannot kill Goku just because his DNA is a little different from a human. There are thousands of examples like this that I can spin up if you'd like.
That's why it was doubted in case you're wondering. Welcome to VsBattles.
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Wait, someone thinks that stands dont have enough mystery? LMAO
Alien shit in fate has mystery, and stands are the product of a space virus. Almost all stands also have a spiritual aspect as well. Stands are also intentionally kept out of the knowledge of general humanity with the exception of one or two organizations that have a large number of stand users on staff. Almost no one understands how stands actually work as well. All that right there is mystery
Alien shit in fate has mystery, and stands are the product of a space virus. Almost all stands also have a spiritual aspect as well. Stands are also intentionally kept out of the knowledge of general humanity with the exception of one or two organizations that have a large number of stand users on staff. Almost no one understands how stands actually work as well. All that right there is mystery
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The alien thing for the nasuverse is because they are the oldest things in the verse not because they are aliens btw
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You sure? If so, that is interesting
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On top of being extremely old aliens are also what later became divine spirits or gods in the nasuverse
The 12 beings who would become the gods of Olympus lived on earth and fought off an alien invasion of the planet 14000 years ago starting the second age of the gods
There was also the alien bacteria that came down in a meteor in south america turning living creatures into gods
There are more examples but that's all I remember off the top of my head
The 12 beings who would become the gods of Olympus lived on earth and fought off an alien invasion of the planet 14000 years ago starting the second age of the gods
There was also the alien bacteria that came down in a meteor in south america turning living creatures into gods
There are more examples but that's all I remember off the top of my head
John985
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Let's try not to derail too much if possible.
And I am sorry professor, but these two cases you are putting up are literally not compatible. Stands have never been described as anything not unnatural or supernatural. Unless the show decides to personally go and expand on the given definition of it beyond the general understanding of the word, it's subject to the general understanding of supernatural.
Literal personified living energy that affects the laws of physics or sillier shit and does things science would never replicate. That's the kind of situation where assuming it isn't has no real justificacion taking into account the context of the series. Even if it didn't, it's doing something not possible and stands are a phenomen know to barely a fraction of humanity. It falls under the criteria of mystery for nasuverse.
And I am sorry professor, but these two cases you are putting up are literally not compatible. Stands have never been described as anything not unnatural or supernatural. Unless the show decides to personally go and expand on the given definition of it beyond the general understanding of the word, it's subject to the general understanding of supernatural.
Literal personified living energy that affects the laws of physics or sillier shit and does things science would never replicate. That's the kind of situation where assuming it isn't has no real justificacion taking into account the context of the series. Even if it didn't, it's doing something not possible and stands are a phenomen know to barely a fraction of humanity. It falls under the criteria of mystery for nasuverse.
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The point flew over you yet again.
It doesn't matter if an ability or item in the Nasuverse affects everything supernatural, it's a garbage blanket statement. We don't just use the word supernatural and see if it describes Stands, we look at what's considered supernatural within the Nasuverse and then we compare it to JoJo. If they are similiar enough then yes, it can be considered supernatural in Nasuverse terms.
But there may be another verse where literally all of this is commonplace and the word supernatural has no bearing in describing a ghost, spirits, gods, etc. What's supernatural in Nasu terms isn't supernatural in other verse terms and as such we are forced to make a comparison.
It doesn't matter if an ability or item in the Nasuverse affects everything supernatural, it's a garbage blanket statement. We don't just use the word supernatural and see if it describes Stands, we look at what's considered supernatural within the Nasuverse and then we compare it to JoJo. If they are similiar enough then yes, it can be considered supernatural in Nasuverse terms.
But there may be another verse where literally all of this is commonplace and the word supernatural has no bearing in describing a ghost, spirits, gods, etc. What's supernatural in Nasu terms isn't supernatural in other verse terms and as such we are forced to make a comparison.
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That's an unnecessarily deep consideration of too many details to say Stands are supernatural, therefore get affected - you better make a CRT or Culexus Assassin shutting down Medaka because of her powers makes utterly no sense, and that's just one of many matches.
Regardless, this is too much derailment and best dropped.
Regardless, this is too much derailment and best dropped.
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The purpose flew over your head this time. I told you why the conversation was necessary, it's up to you whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
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I'd prefer you'd expose what point this is instead of just telling me something flew past my head which is apparently indescribable.
What I said on the first place stands(heh), trying to find the fine detail of Stands and Magecraft to see if the former falls under "supernatural" was needless. It's pretty needless for most matches with pretty general terms like magic except in odd cases. Those are exceptions, not the norm.
What I said on the first place stands(heh), trying to find the fine detail of Stands and Magecraft to see if the former falls under "supernatural" was needless. It's pretty needless for most matches with pretty general terms like magic except in odd cases. Those are exceptions, not the norm.
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Even Hamon users and ghosts can't see stands.
