Snails, Mail, and Happy Trails - Heavy Weather CRT

[Sir_Ovens]

Ignore the title, I was trying to be cute.

Anyway, Heavy Weather does not use mind manipulation and here is why.

Here's the chapter where Pucci explains how Heavy Weather works.

Within the chapter, it is explained that Heavy Weather uses subliminal messaging to convince people that they are snails, thus turning them into snails. Seems like simple mind manip right? Well it's a lot more complicated than simple mind manip.

See, the way Heavy works is that it uses the refraction of light to send a message to you. Your eyes capture this message and you interpret it as turning into a snail. Pucci compared it to how subtle images were inserted into every 1/24 seconds of a movie, making people thirsty and convincing them to buy snacks and drinks at the food counter. So essentially what is happening is that a message is sent to your brain, and you, by your own volitio, are convinced by the message.

Essentially, how Heavy works is that you see a message sent through visible light. Your subconscious mind picks up this message and you start to think about snails. You are so convinced that you are a snail that you turn into one. Why do you turn into a snail? It is never properly explained. Though, similar to D4C paradoxing, it could just be a law of the JoJo universe.

What category of hax does this fall under, Ovens? Don't laugh, but it is a very potent form of Social Influencing. Think about it, Heavy Weather is sending you a message convincing you that you are a snail. You are so convinced that you actually turn into one. To give you a comparable example, Jake Paul keeps aggressively plugging his merch in his videos. Young kids are convinced that they need Jake Paul merch to be "cool", and "hip", so they buy his merch.

So unless you're telling me that Jake Paul is a potent mind manipulator, Heavy Weather gets Social Influencing.

As an added bonus I made a sandbox with overall Weather Report changes that I'd like you guys to see. Do let me know what you guys think. Thank you all for your time.

 

[Schnee_One]

How do you counter something like this?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Unconsciously convincing yourself that you are not a snail. Which is kind of hard, since the unconscious in the part of your brain you cannot be aware of.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Not having a mind would also probably work.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also saying that subliminal messaging doesn't work in real life is irrelevant as it canonically works within the context of JoJo.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

It absolutely works in real life, though not to such an extent (Would be really funny if it did).

 

[Jinsye]

How do you counter something like this?

1. Being blind

2. Being a robot

3. Not having a mind

 

[TriforcePower1]

I agree with this, but people only believe they have turned into snails, they don't actually become one.


No explanation says that they actually turn into snails


Instead, they all say that the targets "perceive themselves as snails"


Or that "Everyone is convinced of"


They would see themselves as snails not because they actually turned into one, but because they believe "that that is the Truth"


Lastly, if it was actually transforming them, the woman would have noticed she was surrounded by snails.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Your own scan yeets your argument.

"...effect affects subjects physically as well."

 

[TriforcePower1]

That's referring to the fact that they cannot walk or move normally due to believing they're snails. Also, affecting physically =/= Turning them into an another species, Pucci just finished explaining how subliminal messages can effect the target by making them hungrier, for example.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I don't know... Let's see what other people think.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Bump.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

By 'affecting them physically' Isn't it that they believe they are a snail so hard that they get on the ground and start crawling around? also they cannot use any of their powers if they believe they are snail.

 

[TriforcePower1]

By 'affecting them physically' Isn't it that they believe they are a snail so hard that they get on the ground and start crawling around? also they cannot use any of their powers if they believe they are snail.

Yes, that's what I'm saying

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah they don't actually turn into snails from what I remember of part 6.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I think this is deff mind manipulation still though. It's just not direct mind manip. It's the kind where the catalyst is external but the mechanism via which the mind hax works is internal. I don't think that doesn't make it mind hax though.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Social Influencing:

"Social Influencing is ones ability to manipulate other characters using some form of charm. This has several uses in the form of manipulation. Whether it be to manipulate how an opponent fights, thinks, or to get info from them that the user would want or need. This can be used in a number of ways via their looks, natural charm, or their way of speaking."

It's not mindhax.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

directly influencing your mind to force it to believe that you are a snail. Even if it works via the mechanism of subliminal messaging via sight. How is that not mind manip?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Does advertising that makes you hungrier by seeing food count as mindhax?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

No because you still have a decision to make. Slightly influencing people one way is differen't then literally forcing someones mind to react in a certain way that completely changes who and what they are. Subtley influencing you to do something you want is different then literally forcing someones mind to react in a certain way.

You can decide not to eat food for a certain amount of time, you have no choice in believing you are a snail.

From the description of social influencing it seems as though it isn't forcing your oponent to believe something. It implies it depends on the person and what they are using to influence someone.

Weathers mindhax works on everything with a brain and eyes.

 

[TriforcePower1]

You're literally taking all those pages in which Pucci explains how Heavy Weather works and throwing them to the bin.

You can choose if you want to eat or not, but you CANNOT decide if you want to be hungry or not. Exactly like you cannot choose to not be a snail after you see the rainbows.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

To be fair the site is down at the moment so I was unable to re-read the chapter. Is there any other characters with mindhax based on light/subliminal messaging? I just don't like the term 'influencing' because it implies you still have a choice one way or the other just that you are pushed to one side by whatever is influencing you. The ultimate goal of making you hungry isn't to make you eat it's to make you spend money on the food you are advertising. The ultimate goal of Weathers influencing is to make you believe you are a snail and it doesn't do this by influencing your brain to make a decision between being a snail or not.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The thing is that you do have a choice, but it's unconscious. By definition, you wouldn't know you're making that choice. Subliminal messaging can even be performed without any powers within the context of JoJo.

Heavy's ability only extends to light based messaging. Turning you into a snail is not his ability, it is your unconscious decision to do so. That's why people see nothing different or wrong when they supposedly turn into snails, they cannot, and are not aware until they are told that they are turning into snails.

As I said above, it can be compared to how social media influencers use agressive plugging and marketing to shill products. People are led to believe by their own thoughts that they need said product through a series of logical conclusions. These conclusions are done unconsciously and the people being affected aren't even aware of it until they are told it is happening.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I don't know any other character that has something like that. Though this has a long several pages long explanation about the fact that it's social Influencing, so it depends on the given explanation.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Again, I cannot stress this enough. Heavy Weather is not mind haxing you. It is sending you a message through refracted light that you can only pick up unconsciously. Through a series of logical conclusions, you decide to turn into a snail through your own volitio.

Heavy is not forcing you to do anything. The bare minimum of mind manipulation is that you are directly being controlled by the guy mind haxing you. But Heavy's ability doesn't even affect your mind, it affects visible light. It turns visible light into a message that can be picked up by your brain.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Fair enough. It's just very potent. This change makes sense.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Good argument, I agree.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If this ever goes through, Iihiko vs Weather should be redone.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can this go through yet? I asked Prom to see this but she hasn't officially commenented, and I don't know any other admins that read part 6.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I think there's still the matter about whatever people actually transform into snails or not.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean it was never explicitly stated that they don't turn into snails. Also Occam's Razor. All the evidence points to the fact that they are in fact turning into snails.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Actually, they were never explicitly stated by Pucci to turn into snails. He always says "they perceive themselves as", "they believe to", "They think that's the truth", never once any explanation of HW says they transform people into snails. Also, the main proof is that the old woman didn't realize she was surrounded and touched by snails in the scan above.

Find me a single official explanation of HW or a statement from Pucci that explicitly states they actually turn into snails and I'll agree, but at the moment it's muuch more likely they only think they get transformed.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I agree with this.

@Triforce

If they were just perceiving themselves as snails, then the shell wearers would be no actual threat to them. There are also many example of the piles of snail shells effecting the world like making a roof collapse from the sheer magnitude of them. That would not happen if they just perceived themselves as snails

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah the snails are def real from what I can tell. In fact I believe it's stated that they are able to reproduce because the type of snail can swap it's gender freely. I doubt they would bring that up if they weren't real snails.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I'd rather not use examples from before the ability is explained because we all know how this kind of stuff works with Araki D4C introduction arc flashbacks, but if you want explanations, fine.

They consider Shell Eaters a threat because they actually believe themselves as snails. If you thought you were transformed into a bunny you would still fear wolves.

You're talking as if a pile of humans couldn't do the same.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yeah the snails are def real from what I can tell. In fact I believe it's stated that they are able to reproduce because the type of snail can swap it's gender freely. I doubt they would bring that up if they weren't real snails.

Why would bringing that up now means that they actually became one? They only mentioned a specific characteristic of snails, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Maybe because snails were coming out of everywhere. Not all of them were grouped up, many burst out of places people could never fit inside. In addition, the snails directly affected Stands as well. This is shown when Pucci reflected light onto Ansui's leg and turned it into snails, stopping his Stand.

And the thing is, why would Araki not tell us it's an illusion? Araki is many things, but he always makes sure to properly tell you what is going on. If the snails were not real, why is there not a shot of a non-snailed town? While it's true that Pucci never stated that the snails were real, he also never stated that they were not real. Logically speaking, we should go with what is shown and not what has not been told to us.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Because it shows that at least some of the snails are real. It is shown that the transformation can occur from touching other snails or seeing the rainbows. That's why it's relevent. Why would they describe a detail about how the snails can exponentially reproduce because of the fact they can change gender at will if they aren't real snails...

 

[Genericstickman]

Aren't they able to do stuff snails are able to do despite not actually being snails? Mild transmutation?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Whatever, I don't care enough to debate this. This is fine.