KIngdom Hearts Conceptual Light/Darkness->Hearts and Nobody NEP

[Bobsican]

Probably other verses where concept manip on the same level is around or so, but it'd go case by case as usual.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Probably other verses where concept manip on the same level is around or so, but it'd go case by case as usual.

Well, that's assuming it gets decided and approved that hearts are concepts. In that case the ability to manipulate hearts of a character from a verse where hearts aren't really relevant as a topic will be dependent on their ability to control concepts that are either new or rather unfamiliar to them if I'm not wrong.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1: Does this apply even if they're a part of true KH, which does predate existence and all?

It doesn’t cause they don’t exist until they are actually born then they become part of the true KH

2: Can you explain?

Individual hearts is not independent of the person who owns it if I can use that word

As for the light and darkness stuff, well, true KH is made of those to begin with, which in turn make existence and more specifically hearts, so several hearts being "newer" than true KH isn't as much of a factor when their components are as old as it anyways.

The reason why I don’t think think the light and dark for CM is valid is cause while their are statements and feats that shows it been literally it been metaphorical and it will still fall under darkness manipulation as even people who can manipulate darkness can manipulate the darkness of he hearts of others in general so it isnt a good CM feat to begin with

So, how would verse equalization with the heart be handled? It doesn't affect biology and simply having a heart doesn't really give you any particular powers.

Well it can’t be I guess they would still get those abilities on the profiles obviously but for it to be used in battle it will probably take long shot, are there no other feats of CM through maybe the true KH or other means?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well, that's assuming it gets decided and approved that hearts are concepts. In that case the ability to manipulate hearts of a character from a verse where hearts aren't really relevant as a topic will be dependent on their ability to control concepts that are either new or rather unfamiliar to them if I'm not wrong.

Pretty much this (and honestly, the closest thing other verses get to KH hearts are souls but that's it)

 

[Bobsican]

Well, what doesn't exist until after birth is the heart, an argument can be made that its most crucial components that are as old as true KH (light and darkness) did exist before its birth.

What would be required for a individual heart to qualify as independant from what it's tied to? Or what goes against that notion in terms of its characteristics or so?

...What? I think your grammar went off enought here by accident or something for me to struggle on some parts over what you mean, could you rephrase? Also, I'm sure the manipulation of darkness in the series generally goes over the one that makes existence or a heart, rather than shadows or the like, so while I can see an overlap with regular darkness manip for other reasons, I wouldn't say that this darkness is nothing more than regular darkness.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well it can’t be I guess they would still get those abilities on the profiles obviously but for it to be used in battle it will probably take long shot, are there no other feats of CM through maybe the true KH or other means?

This question of mine was independent from the question of whether or not hearts qualify as concepts. My question is how we would handle all of the heart-related abilities. Heartless for example can erase people from existence through stealing their hearts which can't be done in the case of people who don't have it. If we decide that people from other verses can't have hearts even though they display traits that would mean that you have one in Kingdom Hearts like existing and having emotions, then we would need to change the way we apply this power on the profiles and in matches.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This question of mine was independent from the question of whether or not hearts qualify as concepts. My question is how we would handle all of the heart-related abilities. Heartless for example can erase people from existence through stealing their hearts which can't be done in the case of people who don't have it. If we decide that people from other verses can't have hearts even though they display traits that would mean that you have one in Kingdom Hearts like existing and having emotions, then we would need to change the way we apply this power on the profiles and in matches.

Well they will still get those said abilities just that the explanation in the bracket beside it will be clear enough for them to know that it’s not applicable in other verses

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, what doesn't exist until after birth is the heart, an argument can be made that its most crucial components that are as old as true KH (light and darkness) did exist before its birth.

What would be required for a individual heart to qualify as independant from what it's tied to? Or what goes against that notion in terms of its characteristics or so?

...What? I think your grammar went off enought here by accident or something for me to struggle on some parts over what you mean, could you rephrase? Also, I'm sure the manipulation of darkness in the series generally goes over the one that makes existence or a heart, rather than shadows or the like, so while I can see an overlap with regular darkness manip for other reasons, I wouldn't say that this darkness is nothing more than regular darkness.

Wait I will explain better later on

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well they will still get those said abilities just that the explanation in the bracket beside it will be clear enough for them to know that it’s not applicable in other verses

And why exactly would it not be applicable in other verses? You said something about it being too specific but it would be a metaphysical component like the soul is. While the soul is something distinct from the heart and the ability to manipulate it is more widespread compared to the heart I don't see why we can't just assume that someone, who as far as Kingdom Hearts standards are concerned displays traits that would mean that they have a heart, has a heart.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And why exactly would it not be applicable in other verses? You said something about it being too specific but it would be a metaphysical component like the soul is. While the soul is something distinct from the heart and the ability to manipulate it is more widespread compared to the heart I don't see why we can't just assume that someone, who as far as Kingdom Hearts standards are concerned displays traits that would mean that they have a heart, has a heart.

Same way you can’t give haki to everyone in other verses or chakra to everyone in other verses you just can’t grant metaphysical hearts to everyone in other verses, these are verse specific abilities
And organic heart =|= metaphysical heart

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Same way you can’t give haki to everyone in other verses or chakra to everyone in other verses you just can’t grant metaphysical hearts to everyone in other verses, these are verse specific abilities
And organic heart =|= metaphysical heart

Metaphysical hearts wouldn't actually give anyone any usable abilities on their own though, so you can't compare it to Haki or Chakra. Hearts aren't an energy that characters are using but a metaphysical component of their being, so it isn't even an ability.

I'm pretty sure that we went quite extensively over how organic hearts and metaphysical hearts have no connections with each other, so I feel like as if you bringing that comparison up makes you the one who needs the reminder the most.

 

[Bobsican]

We could contact users knowledgeable on Standard Battle Assumptions (which verse equalization is a part of) to see what they think over other verses having a heart by default if they showcase traits that would imply having one in KH (most notably existing) for the purposes of versus threads.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Metaphysical hearts wouldn't actually give anyone any usable abilities on their own though, so you can't compare it to Haki or Chakra. Hearts aren't an energy that characters are using but a metaphysical component of their being, so it isn't even an ability.

I'm pretty sure that we went quite extensively over how organic hearts and metaphysical hearts have no connections with each other, so I feel like as if you bringing that comparison up makes you the one who needs the reminder the most.

What are you saying exactly? You are saying you want to equalize the KH hearts in vs battle and I am saying that’s impossible

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What are you saying exactly? You are saying you want to equalize the KH hearts in vs battle and I am saying that’s impossible

You aren't understanding what I'm saying? Well, having a heart isn't any more of an ability than having a soul is, so it would only make a significant difference for a character's capabilities in really specific cases. I'm also saying that you shouldn't bring up organ hearts when it has previously been established that they have nothing to do with the actual topic of the thread. Nobody is seriously arguing that organ hearts and metaphysical hearts should be equalized, so you shouldn't act as if someone is actually arguing that.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What are you saying exactly? You are saying you want to equalize the KH hearts in vs battle and I am saying that’s impossible

You aren't understanding what I'm saying? Well, having a heart isn't any more of an ability than having a soul is, so it would only make a significant difference for a character's capabilities in really specific cases. I'm also saying that you shouldn't bring up organ hearts when it has previously been established that they have nothing to do with the actual topic of the thread. Nobody is seriously arguing that organ hearts and metaphysical hearts should be equalized, so you shouldn't act as if someone is actually arguing that.

Do you now understand what I'm saying?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Do you now understand what I'm saying?

We are on the same page

 

[Nehz_XZX]

We are on the same page

Oh, is that so? That would be good but could you reiterate what I've said in your own words, so we can be sure? I'd rather not discover later on that you didn't actually understand it and given the number of times it needed to be said that heart organs have nothing to do with the subject we are discussing I really want to be sure about this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Oh, is that so? That would be good but could you reiterate what I've said in your own words, so we can be sure? I'd rather not discover later on that you didn't actually understand it and given the number of times it needed to be said that heart organs have nothing to do with the subject we are discussing I really want to be sure about this.

I never said heart organ has anything to do with what we are discussing I said we can’t equalize KH metaphysical hearts in other verses cause they only have organ hearts unlike KH

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I never said heart organ has anything to do with what we are discussing I said we can’t equalize KH metaphysical hearts in other verses cause they only have organ hearts unlike KH

Why are you bringing it up then? You are even using other verses having organ hearts as part of your reasoning even though they are irrelevant for the discussion and you were told that multiple times over.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The message I sent about the whole heart thing and verse equalization was me saying abilities done to metaphysical heart in KH is a verse specific ability and won’t apply in other verses that’s I said
You misunderstanding is entirely on you

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The message I sent about the whole heart thing and verse equalization was me saying abilities done to metaphysical heart in KH is a verse specific ability and won’t apply in other verses that’s I said
You misunderstanding is entirely on you

You are the one who brought heart organs into the conversation in the first place. After that you constantly mentioned them again as if you had some sort of weird fixation on them due to sharing the same name as the metaphysical hearts we were discussing. If you wanted to avoid misunderstandings, then you did so pretty poorly.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The reason why I don’t think think the light and dark for CM is valid is cause while their are statements and feats that shows it been literally it Ian Loren metaphorical and it will still fall under darkness manipulation as even people who can manipulate darkness can manipulate the darkness of he hearts of others in general so it Ian born good CM feat to begin with

This isn't exactly an example of good communication either.

Wait I will explain better later on

I don't think that you have done that yet as far as I can tell.

 

[Executor_N0]

Just saying something
As I stated before, the naming of something has no importance over how that thing works. As such KH's hearts will most likely just be considered to be the equivalent in a series that carries the same structure and function. Sometimes as being equal to X metaphysical concept, or as a subset of it, or even as the whole set with X being the subset.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Just saying something
As I stated before, the naming of something has no importance over how that thing works. As such KH's hearts will most likely just be considered to be the equivalent in a series that carries the same structure and function. Sometimes as being equal to X metaphysical concept, or as a subset of it, or even as the whole set with X being the subset.

Are you telling Pain to12 to focus less on the name or is that just a general reminder since the topic came up?

 

[Executor_N0]

Are you telling Pain to12 to focus less on the name or is that just a general reminder since the topic came up?

Basically, yes. The naming of something is useless as I already explained in like three threads about naming by now (Including this one), the working of something is the only thing that really matters in cases like this.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Basically, yes. The naming of something is useless as I already explained in like three threads about naming by now (Including this one), the working of something is the only thing that really matters in cases like this.

Okay, I'll take that as a yes to both of the options I've presented.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This isn't exactly an example of good communication either.

It’s called auto correct and voice typing and again English is not everyone’s first language try and get that

I don't think that you have done that yet as far as I can tell.

What’s left to explain?

Just saying something
As I stated before, the naming of something has no importance over how that thing works. As such KH's hearts will most likely just be considered to be the equivalent in a series that carries the same structure and function. Sometimes as being equal to X metaphysical concept, or as a subset of it, or even as the whole set with X being the subset.

Basically, yes. The naming of something is useless as I already explained in like three threads about naming by now (Including this one), the working of something is the only thing that really matters in cases like this.

No one is hung up on the naming tho it was about the working and like I said the working of the verse is something I’ve not seen in any other verse so far

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, English isn't my primary language either and I've managed to express my thoughts in a manner apparently up there with native speakers, but to be fair it's a struggle for some either way and it's besides the point.

Speaking of which, I'm sure Nehz means this part of the conversation:

It doesn’t cause they don’t exist until they are actually born then they become part of the true KH

Individual hearts is not independent of the person who owns it if I can use that word

The reason why I don’t think think the light and dark for CM is valid is cause while their are statements and feats that shows it been literally it been metaphorical and it will still fall under darkness manipulation as even people who can manipulate darkness can manipulate the darkness of he hearts of others in general so it isnt a good CM feat to begin with

Well it can’t be I guess they would still get those abilities on the profiles obviously but for it to be used in battle it will probably take long shot, are there no other feats of CM through maybe the true KH or other means?

Well, what doesn't exist until after birth is the heart, an argument can be made that its most crucial components that are as old as true KH (light and darkness) did exist before its birth.

What would be required for a individual heart to qualify as independant from what it's tied to? Or what goes against that notion in terms of its characteristics or so?

...What? I think your grammar went off enought here by accident or something for me to struggle on some parts over what you mean, could you rephrase? Also, I'm sure the manipulation of darkness in the series generally goes over the one that makes existence or a heart, rather than shadows or the like, so while I can see an overlap with regular darkness manip for other reasons, I wouldn't say that this darkness is nothing more than regular darkness.

Wait I will explain better later on

Namely the bolded part, if you need a direct reminder.

 

[PrinceofPein]

you said there was a direct showing of a heart that has had all light removed from it?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It’s called auto correct and voice typing and again English is not everyone’s first language try and get that

What’s left to explain?


No one Ian hung up on the naming tho it was about the working and like I said the working of the verse is something I’ve not seen in any other verse so far

It's not my first language either and I don't have that problem. Besides, if your auto correct makes this much of a problem for communication, then you should turn it off.

You said that you will explain better later on, so shouldn't you know that better than me? If I understood the comment I've quoted from you right, then you wanted to explain the comment that your auto correct messed up.

Did your auto correct alter your sentence again?

 

[PrinceofPein]

It's not my first language either and I don't have that problem. Besides, if your auto correct makes this much of a problem for communication, then you should turn it off.

You said that you will explain better later on, so shouldn't you know that better than me? If I understood the comment I've quoted from you right, then you wanted to explain the comment that your auto correct messed up.

Did your auto correct alter your sentence again?

Yes auto correct did again
And my English is actually good just the keyboard so please stop pointing it out
Is can sometimes be changed to Ian it’s just the keyboard

And again just cause English is not your first language doesn’t mean you can’t speak it better than others who had to learn it on their own

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yes auto correct did again
And my English is actually good just the keyboard so please stop pointing it out
Is can sometimes be changed to Ian it’s just the keyboard

And again just cause English is not your first language doesn’t mean you can’t speak it better than others who had to learn it on their own

I pointed it out because it was in fact hampering communication and you had yet to explain a comment of yours that was affected by the auto correct.

You emphasized English not being your first language, so that was what I responded to. I guess the circumstances can indeed differ though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

had yet to explain a comment of yours

I asked for the scan to the entire darkness and light of the heart
And the separation, removal e.t.c

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I asked for the scan to the entire darkness and light of the heart
And the separation, removal e.t.c

Okay.

 

[Bobsican]

KH Birth by Sleep novel:

Narrator:
Master Xehanort had originally raised Ventus to become his vessel, but Ventus had proven to be too kind. Thus, Master Xehanort had split his heart into light and darkness so that he could make use of him in another way. While he had succeeded in birthing Vanitas, Ventus had remained unconscious, broken after the removal of his heart. Though Master Xehanort had initially tried to discard Ventus after he failed to awaken, for some reason the boy had come to his senses.
In order to cultivate the light in Ventus’s heart, he had given him over to the care of Master Eraqus, who believed in its absolute virtue. Though he and Master Xehanort didn’t see eye to eye, Master Eraqus had accepted Ventus gladly.

In other words, Xehanort wanted Ventus as a vessel to move his heart to and keep living, but he was too frail/weak to withstand his power, and so he used him for material of the X-Blade to get true KH by dividing his heart into one of pure light (Ventus'), and then one of pure darkness (Vanitas). This act greatly damaged Ventus' heart and the remains of that heart would have vanished away were it not for Sora donating a part of his heart.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not a conceptual stuff but I realized while rewatching walkthroughs of KH 1.5 and Re:coded Maleficent should get new powers: Telekinesis (she lifted Data'Sora's Keyblade before destroying it in Re:coded) and Illusion Creation (she's shown creating images of Sora and his friends travelling across worlds at Hollow Bastion while discussing with the other Disney villains in KH 1.5)

 

[Bobsican]

I'd suggest to bring those either in the general discussion thread or the Discord server, that's off-topic, even if appreciable.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Ok, can you link me the general thread (can't find it anymore)?

Edit: Just realized she already has Telekinesis so she's just gonna get Illusions