KH Nobody NEP Revisions: More Types plus Transduality

[Bobsican]

So yeah, after a while it was deemed worth revising the current status for the Nonexistent Physiology on Nobodies.

As we can see in the revision that covered their current description on the site, only type 3 NEP was only granted to Nobodies out of strictly speaking not being incorporeal, and a case like that is only compatible if they have NEP type 3 as the NEP page explains:

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence.

However, way later on I was made aware that a character can qualify for multiple types of NEP at the same time, even by DT himself:

That's not a problem. The intention was always that the characters would get multiple types. The same way we do it for immortality, where a character can, for example, have Immortality Type 1, 3 & 8 at once.

So, my proposal?

Given how Nobodies are often stated to downright lack the existencial aspects that make up all that exists (hearts, and thus light and darkness), they'd downright also qualify for type 1 NEP, before even considering type 2 NEP as well, I'll bring up another required topic:

Type 1 Transduality

So, Naminé is generally regarded as even more non-existent than regular Nobodies, which already lack the traits that make up all that exists in the setting as said before.

Secret Ansem Report 9:

Naminé is a Nobody, created when a young girl's heart left her body.
Yet she has no corresponding Heartless.
This is because the "young girl" in this case was a princess.
Kairi, a resident of Radiant Garden over which I had ruled, was one of the Seven Princesses that uphold the realm of light.
With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light.
In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody.
Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories. One reason for this maybe that Kairi's heart did not return to the darkness when separated from her body, but rather migrated to another vessel...deep within Sora's heart.
That is, Naminé is an alter ego of the Kairi who has directly interfered with Sora's heart. Could this be why Sora and those hearts are connected to him were able to have their memories controlled?
She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.

Secret Ansem Report 10:

As I have written before, she is a most unusual being.
Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

The Character's Report Book (Vol. 1):

Namine
I gave Namine the same face as Kairi. Also, in order to emphasise the 'fragile little girl' side of her, I made her outward appearance very pale, as though she might fade away any minute. She had a complicated birth that differed to proper Nobodies and could even be placed as a subspecies, which contributes to her extremely ephemeral atmosphere… but, there is that moment where she and Kairi get into a fighting stance together. I was pleased by that. I thought, you're going to fight?? ----Nomura

Overall it's clear that Naminé is quite special, being even more nonexistencial than a normal Nobody (which'd qualify for type 2 NEP by definition), but now some may ask "How is this transduality?", and the answer is that being neither part of a "exists" and "doesn't exist" duality qualifies for at least type 1 transduality, the NEP page even notes that type 2 NEP often comes with it out of its criteria.

Now, going back to regular Nobodies, how does this relate to other characters? It comes out of Naminé still being treated as interactuable as any other Nobody, for example:

- Marluxia could pat her

- Larxene could push her chin up and slap her aside

Now, this'd mean that those that can interact with Nobodies in general (other Nobodies, Keyblades and Heartless) would have NPI that can affect type 2 NEP and type 1 transduality out of how it works (we already accept for Nobodies that they can't be interacted with normally from the past CRT).

So, in conclusion:

• Nobodies get type 1 NEP on top of their current type 3 NEP
• Nobodies, Heartless and Keyblade users get Non-Physical Interaction to affect type 1 and 2 NEP plus type 1 Transduality
• Naminé gets type 2 NEP over the "usual" type 1 NEP of Nobodies out of how it works, plus type 1 Transduality, in the case she ever gets a profile

I'll note that type 2 NEP and Transduality are a bit out of my area, but I was told this was at least considerable off-site, so I'd appreciate feedback on the matter, rather than merely approving or denying what's proposed, this verse is so large chances are there's something to complement what may be lacking, so long the required criteria is understood to know what to look for.

 

[DigiAnymore]

Type 1 Transduality

So, Naminé is generally regarded as even more non-existent than regular Nobodies, which already lack the traits that make up all that exists in the setting as said before.

Secret Ansem Report 9:



Secret Ansem Report 10:



The Character's Report Book (Vol. 1):



Overall it's clear that Naminé is quite special, being even more nonexistencial than a normal Nobody (which'd qualify for type 2 NEP by definition), but now some may ask "How is this transduality?", and the answer is that being neither part of a "exists" and "doesn't exist" duality qualifies for at least type 1 transduality, the NEP page even notes that type 2 NEP often comes with it out of its criteria.

Now, going back to regular Nobodies, how does this relate to other characters? It comes out of Naminé still being treated as interactuable as any other Nobody, for example:

- Marluxia could pat her

- Larxene could push her chin up and slap her aside

Now, this'd mean that those that can interact with Nobodies in general (other Nobodies, Keyblades and Heartless) would have NPI that can affect type 2 NEP and type 1 transduality out of how it works (we already accept for Nobodies that they can't be interacted with normally from the past CRT).

So, in conclusion:

• Nobodies get type 1 NEP on top of their current type 3 NEP
• Nobodies, Heartless and Keyblade users get Non-Physical Interaction to affect type 1 and 2 NEP plus type 1 Transduality
• Naminé gets type 2 NEP over the "usual" type 1 NEP of Nobodies out of how it works, plus type 1 Transduality, in the case she ever gets a profile

I'll note that type 2 NEP and Transduality are a bit out of my area, but I was told this was at least considerable off-site, so I'd appreciate feedback on the matter, rather than merely approving or denying what's proposed, this verse is so large chances are there's something to complement what may be lacking, so long the required criteria is understood to know what to look for.

I don't think Namine has anything more than a non-existent, from the scan you sent, it only says that he is just a non-existent, nothing more than a non-existent which makes him meet the NEP2 criteria, even if he is more special than ordinary nobody, maybe that's not enough

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Namine is a she-

 

[Bobsican]

The key thing is that Naminé is stated to downright lack the "existencial" traits that make up a Nobody, and the Nobodies would already qualify for type 1 NEP as the OP proposes, hence the proposal for NEP type 2 for her out of being explicitly even less existant.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I've already mentioned in a previous thread that I had some issues with the Nobodies specifically having Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology which didn't get any feedback.

I was asked on Discord to ping @Dereck03, @Starter_Pack, @Elizhaa, @Everything12, @Deceived3596 and @TheUnshakableOne.

The key thing is that Naminé is stated to downright lack the "existencial" traits that make up a Nobody, and the Nobodies would already qualify for type 1 NEP as the OP proposes, hence the proposal for NEP type 2 for her out of being explicitly even less existant.

It doesn't seem like as if anything you've quoted outright says that Naminé exists even less than a regular Nobody. Is this suggestion of her existing less than a Nobody coming from the fact that she lacks things like a body or memories from the original person which usually would contribute to Nobody coming into being? She is called the most fleeting of shadows and ephemeral I guess.

 

[Bobsican]

It doesn't seem like as if anything you've quoted outright says that Naminé exists even less than a regular Nobody. Is this suggestion of her existing less than a Nobody coming from the fact that she lacks things like a body or memories from the original person which usually would contribute to Nobody coming into being? She is called the most fleeting of shadows and ephemeral I guess.

That, and this bit in particular:

As I have written before, she is a most unusual being.
Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

 

[ThanatosX]

The NEP Type 1 for the Nobody is as clear as it gets, since they are stated multiple times to not exist and that they lack a Heart (which is the fundamental aspect of existence) so them having both Type 1 and Type 3 is pretty straight forward to me.
NEP Type 2 for Namine is also much more solid than I thought. By using the reasoning of the NEP page, since she lacks even the characteristics of a Nobody she is neither a 1 (a normal human being with a Heart) nor a 0 (Nobodies that are Nonexistent in Nature and lacks a Heart), even being stated to be a "non-being" in the truest sense, even more than regular Nobodies which would have NEP Type 1. So, NEP Type 2 for Namine is logical in my opinion.
Transduality Type 1 also makes sense. The NEP page states that NEP Type 2 often have low types of Transduality, and while it's true that this isn't always the case it's also true that in Namine's case it seems to be the case.
Overall, I agree with the proposal.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That, and this bit in particular:

Are we talking about Naminé not having inherited a body, soul or mind or even any memories from the two people from whom she was born from? Kairi retained everything from herself and Sora's body, soul and mind apparently went to Roxas while Sora got to keep his memories after being turned back from being a Heartless.

 

[Bobsican]

Yep.

 

[Deceived3596]

Following, will comment later.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I really think the "nonexistence" stuff is related to her NEP 3.

 

[Bobsican]

It's an accepted thing in the site that a character can qualify for multiple types of NEP at once, and given their current status and details, it stands to reason that they fall in type 3 and 1, as they basically meet criteria of both at once, especially with how the NEP page appears to allow for other NEP types if they qualify already for type 3.

 

[Sniper670]

I agree with Dread on this one

 

[ThanatosX]

I really think the "nonexistence" stuff is related to her NEP 3.

NEP 3 is for characters that do exists, but behave like they don't when attacked. So they both exist and don't at the same time (as explained in the NEP page, they are 1 and 0 at the same time), which is not the case for neither regular Nobodies nor Namine.
For regular Nobodies, they are stated to not exist so many times that it's not even funny, so they easily qualify for Type 1.
Meanwhile, Namine is straight up stated to lack the characteristics of Nobodies and to be even more non-existent than them. So she isn't Type 3, since that would make her exist and not exist at the same time, but rather Type 2, since she doesn't exist (she is still a Nobody that lacks a Heart, the fundamental aspect of existence) and lacks even the non-existent traits of Nobodies (so she isn't even non-existent like them), making her neither a 1 nor a 0, aka NEP Type 2.

 

[Dereck03]

Let's see, Namile

Naminé is a Nobody, created when a young girl's heart left her body.
Yet she has no corresponding Heartless.
This is because the "young girl" in this case was a princess.
Kairi, a resident of Radiant Garden over which I had ruled, was one of the Seven Princesses that uphold the realm of light.
With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light.
In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody.
Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories. One reason for this maybe that Kairi's heart did not return to the darkness when separated from her body, but rather migrated to another vessel...deep within Sora's heart.
That is, Naminé is an alter ego of the Kairi who has directly interfered with Sora's heart. Could this be why Sora and those hearts are connected to him were able to have their memories controlled?
She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.

Some points with Namile is that despite saying she is a nobody, she did not become a nobody but a Non-being.

As I have written before, she is a most unusual being.
Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

The reason she is a non-being is because she lacks virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

Namine
I gave Namine the same face as Kairi. Also, in order to emphasise the 'fragile little girl' side of her, I made her outward appearance very pale, as though she might fade away any minute. She had a complicated birth that differed to proper Nobodies and could even be placed as a subspecies, which contributes to her extremely ephemeral atmosphere… but, there is that moment where she and Kairi get into a fighting stance together. I was pleased by that. I thought, you're going to fight?? ----Nomura

Let's focus on the subspecies in my below comment.

That's all the proof, so it's a no for NEP 2.
Let's focus a little, Namile is not a nobody but rather she's classified as a subspecies that lacks the virtual elements of the nobodies. So she does not have their characteristics, she is a non-being which usually could be referred to as Nonexistence.
And the previous thread accepted that nobodies have type 3 mainly because they still have a physical body and as DT said the characters can have multiple NEP's if another Nature is proven.

So she is not a nobody (she will not be given NEP1 which has the typical characteristics of nobodies) she is a non-being (let's assume nonexistence), the same type 3 reason given to nobodies for possessing a physical body would apply here as she being a non-being she has a physical body but would not have the characteristics of nobodies as she is a "higher level" NEP type 3 (although there is nothing to convince me that this is a higher state of non-existence) but treating it for what it is it would only be a higher level of non-existence which =/= a transdual non-existence, and by DT's words NEP2 is not a better non-existence.

What we have here is someone who (although I am not convinced by the evidence that this is a higher level of non-existence) is a being more non-existent than the common non-existence that would still be categorized as a higher level of Type 3 and nothing more.

By the way, TD 1 makes no sense to me, nothing suggested here is TD at all.

So disagree with NEP 2 and TD 1.... NEP 1 for nobodies should be fine.

@Theglassman12 NEP attempt.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So as I said (except I disagreed with NeP 1 entirely)

 

[Bobsican]

Right now I'd rather keep the transduality proposal for later as it seems what falls in transduality is getting revised, and probably wouldn't pass as things currently are from the look of things anyways.

Anyways, claiming that it's a deeper type 3 for Naminé instead of a deeper type 1 (or at least also having type 1) is weird, as it's not in the sense of her being more existencial than Nobodies (and thus lacking their attributes), but being even more of a paradox out of having even less of a proper origin compared to the regular one. Also, she's officially considered Kairi's Nobody (look at the journal entries), so not deeming her one (especially as it's stated she could fall as a subspecies) seems inappropiate.

 

[Dereck03]

Right now I'd rather keep the transduality proposal for later as it seems what falls in transduality is getting revised, and probably wouldn't pass as things currently are from the look of things anyways.

Kay. Although even if it doesn't pass my outcome will be the same.

Anyways, claiming that it's a deeper type 3 for Naminé instead of a deeper type 1 (or at least also having type 1) is weird, as it's not in the sense of her being more existencial than Nobodies (and thus lacking their attributes), but being even more of a paradox out of having even less of a proper origin compared to the regular one. Also, she's officially considered Kairi's Nobody (look at the journal entries), so not deeming her one (especially as it's stated she could fall as a subspecies) seems inappropiate.

Let's see, It's stated that she is a nobody but right after these excerpts are shown

She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.

Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

She was created as if a nobody was going to be created but what was actually created was a non-being which is not a nobody and yet can be categorized as a sub-species.

She was an attempt to create a nobody based on Kairi but what was created was a "special nobody" according to that wiki but that fell into being a "Non-Being" and that is not even a nobody according to the scans, that is why she doesn't have the characteristics of the nobodies.

So saying she is a nobody contradicts and saying she is not a nobody contradicts as well, but the contradiction presented by saying she is not a nobody is further supported by the scans themselves so we assume it is the correct one.

This does not change my outcome, this would not be type 2 or type 1 for namire.

 

[ThanatosX]

Let's see, Namile

Some points with Namile is that despite saying she is a nobody, she did not become a nobody but a Non-being.

The reason she is a non-being is because she lacks virtually all the elements of a Nobody.

Let's focus on the subspecies in my below comment.

That's all the proof, so it's a no for NEP 2.
Let's focus a little, Namile is not a nobody but rather she's classified as a subspecies that lacks the virtual elements of the nobodies. So she does not have their characteristics, she is a non-being which usually could be referred to as Nonexistence.
And the previous thread accepted that nobodies have type 3 mainly because they still have a physical body and as DT said the characters can have multiple NEP's if another Nature is proven.

So she is not a nobody (she will not be given NEP1 which has the typical characteristics of nobodies) she is a non-being (let's assume nonexistence), the same type 3 reason given to nobodies for possessing a physical body would apply here as she being a non-being she has a physical body but would not have the characteristics of nobodies as she is a "higher level" NEP type 3 (although there is nothing to convince me that this is a higher state of non-existence) but treating it for what it is it would only be a higher level of non-existence which =/= a transdual non-existence, and by DT's words NEP2 is not a better non-existence.

What we have here is someone who (although I am not convinced by the evidence that this is a higher level of non-existence) is a being more non-existent than the common non-existence that would still be categorized as a higher level of Type 3 and nothing more.

By the way, TD 1 makes no sense to me, nothing suggested here is TD at all.

So disagree with NEP 2 and TD 1.... NEP 1 for nobodies should be fine.

@Theglassman12 NEP attempt.

The whole point of Namine is that she is a Nobody, but since she was created from a Princess of Heart she is a different kind of Nobody.
To put it simply, when someone falls into the Darkness, a Heartless is created. This means that the Heart, the fundamental aspect of ones existence, leaves the body. This body then becomes an empty husk, which lacks what makes it exist in the first place. It stops to exist, and in turns becomes a Nodoby, beings that does not exist and lacks a Heart.
Naminé, however, is a special case since she wasn't born when someone felt into the Darkness. Kairi lost her Hearts during the events of KHI, but this didn't create a Heartless since she doesn't have Darkness in her Heart (she is a Princess of Hearts, after all), and her body stayed in the Realm of Light, and we sees it multiple times in KHI. This means that the body that was left behind didn't turn into a Nobody neither, making Namine a fully non-existent being. She doesn't have a Heart and she isn't the body that is left behind like the other Nobodies. She is just something that shouldn't exist.
Not only in the story it's made clear that Kairi's body didn't turn into a Nodoby, but Namine's complete lack of a body is even pointed out in the OP, in the first entry of the Dairy:

"In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody."

Given her complete lack of a body on top the Heart, NEP Type 3 is wrong since those that have this type of NEP exist and just behave like they don't, meanwhile she straight up doesn't exists.
The fact that she isn't created from the body of someone that turned into a Heartless is what doesn't make her a Nobody in the pure sense of the term, and why Ansem says in his Dairy that she is "not even become a Nobody".

 

[Dereck03]

"In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody."

Would you believe me if I told you that I overlooked this? But anyway, look what I found here.

As a result, Naminé was born without Kairi's memories, only furthering her status as an unusual entity. Due to the fact that Naminé is formed from Sora's body and soul, she has the power to manipulate his memories as well as the memories of those who are connected to him, prompting several people, even herself, to refer to her as a "witch". Ansem the Wise stated that Naminé is a highly unusual Nobody, due to possessing neither the body nor the memories that a Nobody is usually made from[2][3], but later concludes that Naminé is similar to Roxas and must be made from Sora's body and soul as well.[4]

She lacks the bodies needed to produce a nobody because she's formed from Sora's body not from a nobody so you saying she lacks bodie is false, meaning that it can't be type 1... So this instantly rejects such premise.

And about the rest of what you said, it's just a lot of text and the most important thing is the extract that you quoted i overlooked.

And honestly I'm still doubting that she even qualify for nep herself in the first place as the proofs presented are too vague, the only thing helping here is she being a Non-Being and us interpretating it as " Nonexistence"

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I’m not seeing Type 2 NEP or Type 1 Transduality here whatsoever. Saying she lacks the characteristics of a Nobody shoots the NEP in the foot, though I also find the type 3 NEP to be sus due to the 3D retcon where Nobodies never really lacked hearts, and that they grow a new heart the moment they lose their old one, so it’s very situational at best if you wanna argue NEP for the Nobodies since the Heart being gone is the sole reason for their NEP.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah I’m not seeing Type 2 NEP or Type 1 Transduality here whatsoever. Saying she lacks the characteristics of a Nobody shoots the NEP in the foot, though I also find the type 3 NEP to be sus due to the 3D retcon where Nobodies never really lacked hearts, and that they grow a new heart the moment they lose their old one, so it’s very situational at best if you wanna argue NEP for the Nobodies since the Heart being gone is the sole reason for their NEP.

Eh, lacking the characteristics of a Nobody isn't inherently in the sense of "she exists", but rather clearly going for "she exists even less".

That 3D stuff was debunked to death already, look carefully at the wording, "a burgeoning replacement" by definition means that one is grown over time, not that they immediately have one as they lose it, that'd be even more counterintuitive ironically as the very definition of a Nobody to begin with is someone that doesn't have a heart, and it's not like the series acts as if the idea of Nobodies was retconned after that, as much they're still brought up even including the definition later on.

Zexion could remain as a Nobody for a decade, so it's far from situational.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican you do realize this doesn’t change my point that it’s very situational at best whether or not the Nobodies still lack hearts or not right? Plus does the Nobodies have any statements of lacking a physical form because them having a body doesn’t really help them get NEP.

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican you do realize this doesn’t change my point that it’s very situational at best whether or not the Nobodies still lack hearts or not right? Plus does the Nobodies have any statements of lacking a physical form because them having a body doesn’t really help them get NEP.

I mean, even at the most minimal showing Nobodies have taken about a year to grow a heart to begin with, which is why they usually get profile keys past a certain point out of losing that physiology.

Uh... nope, quite the contrary if anything, which is part of why the proposal is to have them under type 3 and 1 at once.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Would you believe me if I told you that I overlooked this? But anyway, look what I found here.

She lacks the bodies needed to produce a nobody because she's formed from Sora's body not from a nobody so you saying she lacks bodie is false, meaning that it can't be type 1... So this instantly rejects such premise.

Technically, the one who got Sora's body is Roxas since he is Sora's Nobody and Naminé is still Kairi's Nobody despite the fact that Kairi got to keep her body.

 

[Dereck03]

Technically, the one who got Sora's body is Roxas since he is Sora's Nobody and Naminé is still Kairi's Nobody despite the fact that Kairi got to keep her body.

Well, that page says otherwise clarifying that Namine is similar to roxas saying that she must be formed from Sora's body as well. So not NEP 1 nor Type 2 for Namine and as I said before and Glassman already agreed is that Type 3 is vague.

 

[ThanatosX]

Would you believe me if I told you that I overlooked this? But anyway, look what I found here.

She lacks the bodies needed to produce a nobody because she's formed from Sora's body not from a nobody so you saying she lacks bodie is false, meaning that it can't be type 1... So this instantly rejects such premise.

And about the rest of what you said, it's just a lot of text and the most important thing is the extract that you quoted i overlooked.

And honestly I'm still doubting that she even qualify for nep herself in the first place as the proofs presented are too vague, the only thing helping here is she being a Non-Being and us interpretating it as " Nonexistence"

What you have quote is just the page of the wiki, which is obviously not canon, and that part in itself is taken out of context.
The actual Reports are written from Ansem perspective while he does his research, so all of it is just what he discovers or theorize about something, so it's even unknown if that's true or not.
Anyways, this is the actual quote from the Report:

"It would seem Roxas is much like Naminé. Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul.Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own."

It's stated that Namine "came into being via Sora's body and soul", not that she is Sora's body. If you played the game, it's made clear that Roxas is Sora's Nobody, the body that was left behind when he turned into a Heart less, and that Roxas is "Sora's other half". If Namine was actually, somehow, Sora's body, than he would still be incomplete even now since Namine was reunited with Kairi at the end of KHII. And Sora is not incomplete, as he is stated to be whole again after fusing back with Roxas in KHII.
So no, Namine is not Sora's body. She "came into being via" Sora's body, but this doesn't mean that she somehow is Sora's body, that title is only for Roxas.
And before you says that this is just semantics (if that's the correct word), KH story is complicated and filled with stuff like this. Everything needs to be seen in the wider context and analized word by word, otherwise there is the risk to losing a lot of the story.

 

[Dereck03]

What you have quote is just the page of the wiki, which is obviously not canon, and that part in itself is taken out of context.

Lmao, it was bob who used the wiki to prove smth but now that i use it to prove smth it result on it being non canon and taking out of context?

It's stated that Namine "came into being via Sora's body and soul", not that she is Sora's body. If you played the game, it's made clear that Roxas is Sora's Nobody, the body that was left behind when he turned into a Heart less, and that Roxas is "Sora's other half". If Namine was actually, somehow, Sora's body, than he would still be incomplete even now since Namine was reunited with Kairi at the end of KHII. And Sora is not incomplete, as he is stated to be whole again after fusing back with Roxas in KHII.
So no, Namine is not Sora's body. She "came into being via" Sora's body, but this doesn't mean that she somehow is Sora's body, that title is only for Roxas.
And before you says that this is just semantics (if that's the correct word), KH story is complicated and filled with semantics like that. Everything needs to be seen in the wider context and analized word by word, otherwise there is the risk to losing a lot of the story.

I never said that she is sora's body, I said that she was formed based on sora's body and soul. If something is based, formed or born/came to being on the basis of "my body and soul" clearly that something possesses such characteristics related to me.

In principle she was going to be a nobody, but she turned out to be different and was born as a "Non-Being", she does not possess the body of a nobody but was formed by the body and soul of sora and it clearly states that she does not possess the characteristics of the nobodies.

Likewise, even if this talk continues, it will not guarantee the NEP that the OP proposes because the context does not support the claim.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sorry man, disagree FRA with NEP 2 and TD1.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I did say to specifically check the journal entries (and that was just regarding her being called "Kairi's Nobody" or so), which are just quoting stuff in the games, rather than just the wiki page in general, not that you shouldn't, but stuff that's not a direct quote in a wiki can't be used as a proper source to evaluate semantics, as they're just fan summaries.

 

[Dereck03]

as they're just fan summaries

What we list in our profiles here are basically fan summaries backed with scans same with there, we do that to allow an easy way of comprehension... But that apart doesn't disprove every point I made neither this

I never said that she is sora's body, I said that she was formed based on sora's body and soul. If something is based, formed or born/came to being on the basis of "my body and soul" clearly that something possesses such characteristics related to me.

In principle she was going to be a nobody, but she turned out to be different and was born as a "Non-Being", she does not possess the body of a nobody but was formed by the body and soul of sora and it clearly states that she does not possess the characteristics of the nobodies.

Likewise, even if this talk continues, it will not guarantee the NEP that the OP proposes because the context does not support the claim.

 

[Bobsican]

Other wikies aren't as semantic heavy as us, different standards and all of that to keep in mind.

TBH strictly speaking this goes more among the lines of Sora merely being a parental figure than Naminé having the same traits as Sora's body, and the latter clearly isn't the case as she looks far more like Kairi, let alone the gender.

Naminé is more nonexistencial than a normal Nobody, rather than lacking the attributes of a Nobody in the sense of "she exists more", as said before, especially as she's considered a Nobody as said before.

 

[ThanatosX]

Lmao, it was bob who used the wiki to prove smth but now that i use it to prove smth it result on it being non canon and taking out of context?

He linked the KHwiki page just to show Namine classification as a Nobody. In that page, there are a lot of quote directly from the game that says this, so for simplicity sake be linked the page, which is fine. But when it comes to the details of things, wikis can't be used, since they are written by fans and are often wrong, like in this case. But this is off topic, so I will drop the argument.

I never said that she is sora's body, I said that she was formed based on sora's body and soul. If something is based, formed or born/came to being on the basis of "my body and soul" clearly that something possesses such characteristics related to me.

Only because it came into existence from something, in this case Sora's body and soul, doesn't mean that it possess the same characteristics. Her being born via Sora's body doesn't mean that she herself has a body, and even Ansem the Wise states that she lacks the body needed for a Nodoby to be born, which is not contradicted by the statement that she is born via Sora's body since, as I said before, she isn't his body. She is Kairi's Nobody after all, not Sora's.

In principle she was going to be a nobody, but she turned out to be different and was born as a "Non-Being", she does not possess the body of a nobody but was formed by the body and soul of sora and it clearly states that she does not possess the characteristics of the nobodies.

I don't see why this would prove that she has a body. She doesn't possess the body of a Nobody, and she came into being via Sora's body and soul, she is not formed by them since Roxas is his body.
Her lacking the characteristics of a Nobody is true, and is stated why in the Reports of Ansem the Wise. She lacks the body needed to create a Nobody, and the body is basically everything a Nobody is, so she obviously lacks their characteristics. As simple as that.

Likewise, even if this talk continues, it will not guarantee the NEP that the OP proposes because the context does not support the claim.

I don't care too much about which Type of NEP they get, I just think that saying that they shouldn't have NEP at all is wrong and as such I want to give my input as someone that played all the games.

 

[Deceived3596]

Here's my evaluation, note I'm not knowledgeable about this series so if there's any contextual mistakes about it then that's why.

Also take a shot when the words "nonexistence" or "nonexistent" shows up.

After reading through the OP, my understanding of what’s being discussed right now is that Bobiscan’s arguing that a character named Naime is considered to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities like Nobodies, through lacking virtually all qualities that Nobodies have, and being considered a “non-being” in the purest form of the word, even when compared to Nobodies. Implying a level of nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than beings which lack existential qualities.

Because of this supposed “deeper” level of nonexistence, Bobsican’s arguing it should be considered as NEP (Nature: Type 2) as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence that’s beyond the general binary code of 1 and 0’s, with 1 describing existence and 0 describing nonexistence. Which in our case would be Naime being considered more nonexistent than beings who would be described, in binary code, as 0’s.

Well, first and foremost NEP (Nature: Type 1) seems fine, there's a multitude of statements that imply Nobodies lack physical existence entirely, with them being stated to be "nonexistent" beings, embodiments of "emptiness" that exist as beings of "nothingness", they've lost physical form after losing fundamental aspects about their existence, such as their "hearts". With physical attacks phasing through their bodies as if they didn’t exist.

Now, as for NEP (Nature: Type 2), the logic behind it makes sense within a vacuum, Naime’s implied to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities (with her being a “non-being” even when compared to Nobodies). Which would qualify Type 2 imo as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence above general nonexistence, if you’re more nonexistent than something which doesn’t exist, you would fulfill that prerequisite of “nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than regular nonexistence” for Type 2.

But there’s potentially a problem if Naime’s an actual physical entity in the sense of possessing a physical body (made of matter, not just having physicality). Because if she’s still made of physical matter, but acts like she isn’t, then that would just be a higher form of Type 3, not her having Type 2 since Type 2 necessarily requires the entity in question to be intangible, to be without physical existence. But I'm without that context so I can’t really comment on it. If she doesn’t have a physical body, Type 2’s fine imo, but if she does, then layered Type 3 (without Type 1) makes more sense.

Transduality is dependent on if she’s Type 2 or not, if she’s Type 2 then Transduality seems fine since she would be above the dual concepts of light and darkness that Nobodies exist between, but if she is only Type 3, then I disagree with Transduality.

 

[Bobsican]

So what I'm getting is that it's impossible to have (as far our standards are concerned) type 2 and 3 at the same time?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican So you’re proving my point even more that it’s situational, meaning they don’t have NEP the full time since they get their hearts back.

Ok so NEP is just flat out not happening then if they don’t lack a physical form.

Yes, you’re trying to say someone’s simultaneously existing and non existing, and also that they’re neither, this contradicts itself completely as you can’t have one with the other.

 

[Deceived3596]

So what I'm getting is that it's impossible to have (as far our standards are concerned) type 2 and 3 at the same time?

It's possible to have both, just extremely rare.

Like you can be more nonexistent than nonexistence on a physical level (which would quality for Type 2), but you could still have a existing mind, soul etc, that acts like it's nonexistent (which would quality for Type 3).

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Well, Nobodies are consistently stated to be The Leftover Body and Soul of a being after their Heart is taken from them- Said Heart time and time again being considered what separates those who exist and don't exist in the verse. And we only have a handful of example's of Nobodies confirmed to be regaining a heart, those example's either being one's who take extensive time to gain a replacement (Axel only gaining one sometime around 358/2 Day's or KH2, while having been a Nobody for 10 year's Prior), or are exceptionally rare cases (Roxas, a being made from Sora's Body and Soul, who is influenced by Ventus, but the process was halted partway through by Sora being revived in a manner which allow's him to keep some of the traits the Nobody should have had- Even then it can be debated that Roxas still took a few months or so to gain one, but I don't have the pinpoint timeframe he did.), but at minimum when a Nobody is initially formed, they absolutely lack a heart, and thus they lack existence.

Namine is a being who was made from the separation of Kairi's Heart from Sora's Body and Soul (Which was housing Kairi for the time). Roxas inherited Sora's Body and Soul, which would mean that Namine would lack Existence on a even further level than character's like Roxas or Axel. She would have no Physical Form, no Soul, no Heart, no Existence, nothing-

To summarize what I'm saying:

• Nobodies are made of Bodies and Soul's, but lack Hearts
• The Verse has Heart's being the fundamental thing that defines if you exist or not. Those without a Heart are treated as Not Existing within the verse, and show off characteristic's of such.
• It take's most nobodies extensive time to regrow a heart, usually year's- Some we haven't had it ever confirmed at all if they did or didn't.
• The Nobodies who do grow a heart quicker tend to be stated to outright be anomalies among Nobodies (This is even stated in verse with Ansem The Wise pointing out Roxas alongside Namine as two of a handful of Anomalies)
• Namine lack's the aspect's that even Nobodies have, those being a Body and a Soul. She is treated as even further from existence by Ansem's own words.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Snip

To further clarify, the heart in this verse contain's the Concept and Information of a being- Thus lacking it would mean that you lack your own concept and information.