KH Nobody NEP Revisions: More Types plus Transduality

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican So you’re proving my point even more that it’s situational, meaning they don’t have NEP the full time since they get their hearts back.

Ok so NEP is just flat out not happening then if they don’t lack a physical form.

Yes, you’re trying to say someone’s simultaneously existing and non existing, and also that they’re neither, this contradicts itself completely as you can’t have one with the other.

Eh, the whole definition of a Nobody is someone that lacks a heart to begin with, I've already gone in-depth of how NEP is basically the defining trait of a Nobody in the first place, as otherwise they wouldn't be a Nobody to begin with, a physiology being temporary is irrelevant for indexing purposes as much we often allow characters having whole keys dedicated to stat amps, transformations and so on, even for way less time at that.

The current standards in the NEP page do allow for NEP even if the character isn't incorporeal so long they qualify for type 3. I've already gone into the OP on how multiple types of NEP is a thing allowed on the site, and NEP as a whole is a paradoxical power, it doesn't have to make sense on that regard.

Here's my evaluation, note I'm not knowledgeable about this series so if there's any contextual mistakes about it then that's why.

Also take a shot when the words "nonexistence" or "nonexistent" shows up.

After reading through the OP, my understanding of what’s being discussed right now is that Bobiscan’s arguing that a character named Naime is considered to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities like Nobodies, through lacking virtually all qualities that Nobodies have, and being considered a “non-being” in the purest form of the word, even when compared to Nobodies. Implying a level of nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than beings which lack existential qualities.

Because of this supposed “deeper” level of nonexistence, Bobsican’s arguing it should be considered as NEP (Nature: Type 2) as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence that’s beyond the general binary code of 1 and 0’s, with 1 describing existence and 0 describing nonexistence. Which in our case would be Naime being considered more nonexistent than beings who would be described, in binary code, as 0’s.

Well, first and foremost NEP (Nature: Type 1) seems fine, there's a multitude of statements that imply Nobodies lack physical existence entirely, with them being stated to be "nonexistent" beings, embodiments of "emptiness" that exist as beings of "nothingness", they've lost physical form after losing fundamental aspects about their existence, such as their "hearts". With physical attacks phasing through their bodies as if they didn’t exist.

Now, as for NEP (Nature: Type 2), the logic behind it makes sense within a vacuum, Naime’s implied to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities (with her being a “non-being” even when compared to Nobodies). Which would qualify Type 2 imo as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence above general nonexistence, if you’re more nonexistent than something which doesn’t exist, you would fulfill that prerequisite of “nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than regular nonexistence” for Type 2.

Thanks for the evaluation in a vacuum, it's on point.

But there’s potentially a problem if Naime’s an actual physical entity in the sense of possessing a physical body (made of matter, not just having physicality). Because if she’s still made of physical matter, but acts like she isn’t, then that would just be a higher form of Type 3, not her having Type 2 since Type 2 necessarily requires the entity in question to be intangible, to be without physical existence. But I'm without that context so I can’t really comment on it. If she doesn’t have a physical body, Type 2’s fine imo, but if she does, then layered Type 3 (without Type 1) makes more sense.

Transduality is dependent on if she’s Type 2 or not, if she’s Type 2 then Transduality seems fine since she would be above the dual concepts of light and darkness that Nobodies exist between, but if she is only Type 3, then I disagree with Transduality.

It's possible to have both, just extremely rare.

Like you can be more nonexistent than nonexistence on a physical level (which would quality for Type 2), but you could still have a existing mind, soul etc, that acts like it's nonexistent (which would quality for Type 3).

The series never goes too much into that topic IIRC, what'd be the default with the context given so far?

In any case, looking at the NEP page, behaving like someone with type 1 NEP is the minimal for type 2 beyond the extra criteria of being considered even less existencial, being "fully" incorporeal isn't a requirement per-say as said before if the character qualifies for type 3, as quoted at the start of the OP:

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Thats not a really good whataboutism card you can pull as there’s a massive difference between stat amping/transformation, and someone just regrowing their essence back and invalidating their NEP so long as they have their Heart intact.

That’s not an argument, saying “it doesn’t make sense in general so **** it” isn’t an argument since we’ve made it clear that for certain abilities you can’t have both types if they contradict each other by design, like type 4 and 5 Acausality.

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican Thats not a really good whataboutism card you can pull as there’s a massive difference between stat amping/transformation, and someone just regrowing their essence back and invalidating their NEP so long as they have their Heart intact.

I mean, your whole issue is that being a Nobody is temporary, even though the amount of time a character is a Nobody is consistently on a more than combat applicable timeframe, but regardless, not only we don't index stuff based only on vs thread purposes, but also by that logic we'd start removing weaknesses to characters just because they then no longer have them over time, it's misleading and inappropiate for no good reason, especially when the status of several characters on this regard is a good portion of the plot of the series.
The Nobody Physiology page already notes that those with it eventually lose it over time either way, so IDK what is your point, we've already gone in another thread on a power being temporary or not being quite irrelevant for what it'd fall as as far precedents go.

That’s not an argument, saying “it doesn’t make sense in general so **** it” isn’t an argument since we’ve made it clear that for certain abilities you can’t have both types if they contradict each other by design, like type 4 and 5 Acausality.

This seems weird coming from you as you seemingly accepted another character having multiple types of NEP at once, let's avoid double standards, okay?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with glass and dereck.

 

[ThanatosX]

@Bobsican Thats not a really good whataboutism card you can pull as there’s a massive difference between stat amping/transformation, and someone just regrowing their essence back and invalidating their NEP so long as they have their Heart intact.

That’s not an argument, saying “it doesn’t make sense in general so **** it” isn’t an argument since we’ve made it clear that for certain abilities you can’t have both types if they contradict each other by design, like type 4 and 5 Acausality.

Ngl, your argument that "they grow back their Heart, so they shouldn't get NEP" is pretty bad and not how our wiki treats this. There are multiple cases of characters that, for example, get erased down to their concept but still continue to exist as non-existent beings, before eventually regenerating with High-Godly. They still get NEP, althought limited, because in that interval of time they were, in fact, NEP. Monika from Doki Doki Literature Club is a good example of this.
As noted by Bob, they also takes a long time to grow a new one back, which means that most of the basic Nobodies fought (so random enemies like Husks) still didn't have the opportunity to grow a new one.
Also, I am noticing that you are kinda ignoring all of the other arguments that are being made. I suggest you to give them a look, especially to Deceived and TheKingStrategist comments, which gives a good summary of everything.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Depends on the context of said weaknesses if they're not that relevant in the grand scheme of things, or exist in specific keys for the characters, also good job taking what I accepted out of context when I never said I agreed to the type 2 and 3 nature, just the Aspects in VHD. If you actually payed attention to what I've accepted maybe you'll see what it is I was fine with in the first place.

@ThanatosX Except Nobodies aren't getting erased by someone and can swap in between their nonexistent self and their regenerative self, they're just starting off with no Heart and just grow one in the end, which renders their NEP moot. Which one of Strategist's comments are you referring to, the most recent one? Because they literally said they have a body, which doesn't really help the NEP part.

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican Depends on the context of said weaknesses if they're not that relevant in the grand scheme of things, or exist in specific keys for the characters,

As said before, this physiology is indeed relegated to only certain keys out of that kind of limitations.

also good job taking what I accepted out of context when I never said I agreed to the type 2 and 3 nature, just the Aspects in VHD. If you actually payed attention to what I've accepted maybe you'll see what it is I was fine with in the first place.

You actually did, at least as far type 2 was concerned, please pay more attention.

Also, there's plenty of precedent on having multiple types of NEP at once, if you'd want to still push against this premise, please be my guest and make a CRT on the matter to avoid double standards.

 

[ThanatosX]

@ThanatosX Except Nobodies aren't getting erased by someone and can swap in between their nonexistent self and their regenerative self, they're just starting off with no Heart and just grow one in the end, which renders their NEP moot.

I am sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. You yourself said that they start with no Heart, which means that they starts off as non existent. Which means that in the time frame that goes between them not having a Heart and them growing a new one they are, indeed, NEP. Even if in the meanwhile they are regenerating, they still have no Heart. By this logic, none of the character that becomes NEP and regenerate should get NEP, since they also regenerate over time.

Which one of Strategist's comments are you referring to, the most recent one? Because they literally said they have a body, which doesn't really help the NEP part.

Only because they have a body doesn't mean that this body exist in a physical form. It's stated pretty clearly in the KH Ultimate Handbook that Nodoby are "An empty vessel whose heart has been stolen away... A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence--- for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all". Their body cease to exist physically the moment they lose their Heart. This is also supported by the Report of Ansem that is in the OP, which states that Kairi's body didn't turn into a Nobody specifically because said body didn't vanish from the Realm of Light, confirming that the body ceasing to exist is a essential part for the birth of a Nobody, which is even further supported by the the story itself too, since when Sora removes his Heart his body vanishes completely, and soon after his Nodoby is born. As the cherry on the cake, they are also shown to be immune to any normal physical attack, with said attacks fazing thought them, something that wouldn't happen if their body existed in a physical way.
If their body existed in a physical sense of the term, then they wouldn't be called "non-existent" in the first place.
And also you still have not commented on Namine either.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Why would Nobodies growing hearts render their Nonexistent Physiology moot? Does that mean that Nobody Physiology as a whole is moot because it depends on someone not having a heart? Being able to grow a heart doesn't change anything about the fact that the person who has grown a heart had at one point no heart especially if it took a significant amount of time to happen, so without further elaboration that argument of growing a heart rendering Nonexistent Physiology moot sounds quite nonsensical to me.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Which one of Strategist's comments are you referring to, the most recent one? Because they literally said they have a body, which doesn't really help the NEP part.

Or, you know, you could look at maybe one of the 4/5+ other points brought up

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Is that something already implemented in the pages or not? Because I don’t see the NEP being only on a specific key for someone like Xemnas.

Yeah type 2 NEP, did I say I was fine with type 2 and 3? Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right. If they have both type 2 and 3 NEP then it’s about as wrong as having type 4 and 5 Acausality at the same time.

@ThanatosX That does bring up a good point, if they’re just flat out nonexistent when they don’t have a heart, why is their NEP type 3 to begin with instead of just type 1? Nothing about the scans remotely say or imply they’re simultaneously existing and nonexisting?

You mean the NEP 2 and TD 1 stuff for Namine? I already did and said I disagreed since it doesn’t qualify for those types of abilities.

@Nehz_XZX Its rendered moot after however long it takes to reform the heart, meaning there’d need to be a specific key for those Nobodies who did grow back one.

 

[Bobsican]

The pages are still being updated out of multiple yet-to-apply CRTs.
Well, then please make a CRT on the matter, as until then it'd be a double standard, and you didn't object on type 3 NEP being then reaffirmed immediately after your approval of type 2, which'd give the implication you were fine with it, but that's not the main point anyways.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Nehz_XZX Its rendered moot after however long it takes to reform the heart, meaning there’d need to be a specific key for those Nobodies who did grow back one.

Characters like Roxas, Axel and Xion already have a key like that for when they returned as Somebodies and the others who were recompleted weren’t involved in any notable battles after that as complete people.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright then, all that’s left that I don’t get is why the Nobodies are type 3 NEP instead of type 1 since I don’t see it being stated that they’re both existing and nonexisting.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Alright then, all that’s left that I don’t get is why the Nobodies are type 3 NEP instead of type 1 since I don’t see it being stated that they’re both existing and nonexisting.

Apparently it had something to do with them having bodies despite those bodies not existing according to Kingdom Hearts lore. I’ve also had my doubts about Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology being appropriate for them in a previous thread and I even linked my post expressing that in my first post in this thread.

 

[Deceived3596]

The series never goes too much into that topic IIRC, what'd be the default with the context given so far?

We don't really have a default position per se, like one that's codified into rules or anything of the sort. But imo a "likely"/"possibly" rating would make the most sense in this situation since both claims are contingent on similarly sound assumptions imo, you can give or take some from either side (hence it either being a "likely"/"possibly" depending on which side is considered more likely) but I'd think one of those ratings would be fine.

 

[ThanatosX]

@ThanatosX That does bring up a good point, if they’re just flat out nonexistent when they don’t have a heart, why is their NEP type 3 to begin with instead of just type 1? Nothing about the scans remotely say or imply they’re simultaneously existing and nonexisting?

Nehz_XZX already replied, but I will just say that them having only NEP Type 1 makes sense to me since NEP Type 3 is for characters that exist, but act as they don't when attacked, while Nodobies just don't exist at all. But I will leave the details about the types of NEP to more knowledgeable people than me on the argument, all I cared about was them having some form of NEP since it would be paradoxical for them to not have that ability at all given the context.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Nehz_XZX Yeah not really sure that can pass as Type 3, you'd need actual statements of simultaneously existing and not existing for this to be type 3, so this would be type 1 at best.

 

[Bobsican]

Wouldn't that validate Naminé having type 2 NEP (and transduality) then? Just reaffirming.

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really because there’s nothing about her being neither existing nor not existing, or even her being out of the Duality of Existence and Nonexistence.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So once again, the only reason for type 3 was the assumption of heart? Glad we solved the issue

 

[Bobsican]

So once again, the only reason for type 3 was the assumption of heart? Glad we solved the issue

The only reason they had type 3 was out of not being incorporeal (they don't have a formless "true form" or anything like that), but if they can qualify for only type 1 now then there's no issue I guess.

Not really because there’s nothing about her being neither existing nor not existing, or even her being out of the Duality of Existence and Nonexistence.

Ahem:

Here's my evaluation, note I'm not knowledgeable about this series so if there's any contextual mistakes about it then that's why.

Also take a shot when the words "nonexistence" or "nonexistent" shows up.

After reading through the OP, my understanding of what’s being discussed right now is that Bobiscan’s arguing that a character named Naime is considered to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities like Nobodies, through lacking virtually all qualities that Nobodies have, and being considered a “non-being” in the purest form of the word, even when compared to Nobodies. Implying a level of nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than beings which lack existential qualities.

Because of this supposed “deeper” level of nonexistence, Bobsican’s arguing it should be considered as NEP (Nature: Type 2) as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence that’s beyond the general binary code of 1 and 0’s, with 1 describing existence and 0 describing nonexistence. Which in our case would be Naime being considered more nonexistent than beings who would be described, in binary code, as 0’s.

Well, first and foremost NEP (Nature: Type 1) seems fine, there's a multitude of statements that imply Nobodies lack physical existence entirely, with them being stated to be "nonexistent" beings, embodiments of "emptiness" that exist as beings of "nothingness", they've lost physical form after losing fundamental aspects about their existence, such as their "hearts". With physical attacks phasing through their bodies as if they didn’t exist.

Now, as for NEP (Nature: Type 2), the logic behind it makes sense within a vacuum, Naime’s implied to be more nonexistent compared to already nonexistent entities (with her being a “non-being” even when compared to Nobodies). Which would qualify Type 2 imo as Type 2 denotes a level of nonexistence above general nonexistence, if you’re more nonexistent than something which doesn’t exist, you would fulfill that prerequisite of “nonexistence that’s more nonexistent than regular nonexistence” for Type 2.

But there’s potentially a problem if Naime’s an actual physical entity in the sense of possessing a physical body (made of matter, not just having physicality). Because if she’s still made of physical matter, but acts like she isn’t, then that would just be a higher form of Type 3, not her having Type 2 since Type 2 necessarily requires the entity in question to be intangible, to be without physical existence. But I'm without that context so I can’t really comment on it. If she doesn’t have a physical body, Type 2’s fine imo, but if she does, then layered Type 3 (without Type 1) makes more sense.

Transduality is dependent on if she’s Type 2 or not, if she’s Type 2 then Transduality seems fine since she would be above the dual concepts of light and darkness that Nobodies exist between, but if she is only Type 3, then I disagree with Transduality.

Unless you disagree with Deceived? He's listed as a knowledgeable member regarding NEP, and the list has quite high standards as you may be aware.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Don't care about this or how wanked KH can be in general but this:

Unless you disagree with Deceived? He's listed as a knowledgeable member regarding NEP, and the list has quite high standards as you may be aware.

Is a big ass appeal to authority

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, even you're aware the site gives priority input-wise to users that are known to be reliable, which is why staff input is required to make CRTs usable.
Now go back to your private Discord in which Glass is probably memeing me right now.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I mean, even you're aware the site gives priority input-wise to users that are known to be reliable, which is why staff input is required to make CRTs usable.
Now go back to your private Discord in which Glass is probably memeing me right now.

Bob. You lost-

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

if Namine's characteristics and treated as a sub-species of a much larger group of Nobody then that by default would make Nobody NEP type 2.
so if you're going to use Nobody as a basis for her having NEP type 2 the reasoning becomes circular.

furthermore reading more into report 10

I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously.Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora.When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born with no sense of self, and the body and soul left behind give rise to a Nobody.

Clearly shows how Namine is still born as a nobody with special circumstances not related to her being much more nonexistent but more of how she was conceived or born

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, even you're aware the site gives priority input-wise to users that are known to be reliable, which is why staff input is required to make CRTs usable.
Now go back to your private Discord in which Glass is probably memeing me right now.

I'm the one memeing about you and it is here and now >:v

 

[Dereck03]

Unless you disagree with Deceived? He's listed as a knowledgeable member regarding NEP, and the list has quite high standards as you may be aware.

Then i see bob listed as NEP Knowledgeable member

I'll note that type 2 NEP are a bit out of my area

Then i see this.

Double standards

 

[ThanatosX]

if Namine's characteristics and treated as a sub-species of a much larger group of Nobody then that by default would make Nobody NEP type 2.
so if you're going to use Nobody as a basis for her having NEP type 2 the reasoning becomes circular.

furthermore reading more into report 10

Clearly shows how Namine is still born as a nobody with special circumstances not related to her being much more nonexistent but more of how she was conceived or born

As said before, I am neutral on the Type of NEP that is chosen, but I will point out that Namine is a Nobody that is more "non-existent" than regular ones.
She isn't just born differently, she is stated to be born as lacking even the elements that makes a Nobody such (Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.), and is even stated to be a full "non-being" even compared to the Nobodies because of this (She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.). So she lacks both a Heart (her Concept) and also she lacks what all the elements of a Nobody.
Both in the Reports and in the story itself is made pretty clear that, while she is indeed a Nobody, she is an extremely different one, so this isn't a circular argument since Namine would be lacking even what makes the Noboby... Well, Nobodies. So the Nobodies can be a NEP Type while she can be another Type of that same ability.
But again, if this is enough for NEP Type 2 it should be decided by others since I am personally neutral, althought I think it would make sense to me.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

As said before, I am neutral on the Type of NEP that is chosen, but I will point out that Namine is a Nobody that is more "non-existent" than regular ones.
She isn't just born differently, she is stated to be born as lacking even the elements that makes a Nobody such (Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.), and is even stated to be a full "non-being" even compared to the Nobodies because of this (She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.). So she lacks both a Heart (her Concept) and also she lacks what all the elements of a Nobody.
Both in the Reports and in the story itself is made pretty clear that, while she is indeed a Nobody, she is an extremely different one, so this isn't a circular argument since Namine would be lacking even what makes the Noboby... Well, Nobodies. So the Nobodies can be a NEP Type while she can be another Type of that same ability.
But again, if this is enough for NEP Type 2 should be decided by others.

If im going by the definition of Both Nobody and Heartless then She would simply get what both grants. and considering your explanation

Embodiments of emptiness that serve the darkness. Nobodies arise alongside Heartless, when the empty body left behind becomes its own autonomous creature. Nobodies who possessed exceptionally strong hearts in life may retain their original appearance, as did all of the previous Organization XIII's members. Not everyone fares so well, however; most bodies cease to exist the moment their hearts are lost. As a result, Nobodies are fewer in number than their Heartless counterparts.

When someone with true strength in their heart loses that heart and becomes a Heartless, every so often a second version of them comes into being. These "Nobodies" have no hearts to feel with; only memories of their human past and what it was like to feel.

If a strong-hearted person loses or is robbed of that heart, their body and spirit can live on as a Nobody. Nobodies have no hearts, but they retain their human memories, which serve as a reservoir from which to draw human emotion.

Then wouldn't it be actually just Namine's simply having the characteristic of Both Nobodies and Heartless in a way that in the context of nonexisting AKA Being a Nobody yet not having What a nobody has which is a body/spirit/memories and also being a heartless but not having what a heartless has so basically more Lacking of Aspect thus cannot be categorized as a Nobody in a sense and also a Heartless

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If im going by the definition of Both Nobody and Heartless then She would simply get what both grants. and considering your explanation

Then wouldn't it be actually just Namine's simply having the characteristic of Both Nobodies and Heartless in a way that in the context of nonexisting AKA Being a Nobody yet not having What a nobody has which is a body/spirit/memories and also being a heartless but not having what a heartless has so basically more Lacking of Aspect thus cannot be categorized as a Nobody in a sense and also a Heartless

I wouldn't categorize Naminé as a Heartless for multiple reasons. The first one is that she is never called that and she never displays any traits of one either. The second is that unlike Nobodies which are characterized by their lack of a heart Heartless come into being through hearts falling into darkness, so Naminé is a Nobody because she was born from the same process as a Nobody while Kairi didn't become a Heartless due to her heart of pure light. The closest thing to a Heartless that is involved in Naminé's creation process is Kairi who fundamentally cannot become one.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I wouldn't categorize Naminé as a Heartless for multiple reasons. The first one is that she is never called that and she never displays any traits of one either. The second is that unlike Nobodies which are characterized by their lack of a heart Heartless come into being through hearts falling into darkness, so Naminé is a Nobody because she was born from the same process as a Nobody while Kairi didn't become a Heartless due to her heart of pure light. The closest thing to a Heartless that is involved in Naminé's creation process is Kairi who fundamentally cannot become one.

I see
So Namine by default for being a nobody already lacks a heart (info/concept) but since she also lacks characteristics that Nobody has then she would simply gain more of that aspect as I said.
That clarified it a bit but yeah even with all those I believe this is simply Namine having more aspects that she lacks like spirit and emotion/mind.
Although she developed it but due to her having Nature Type 3 it doesn't seem farfetch

 

[Deceived3596]

Unless you disagree with Deceived? He's listed as a knowledgeable member regarding NEP, and the list has quite high standards as you may be aware.

if Namine's characteristics and treated as a sub-species of a much larger group of Nobody then that by default would make Nobody NEP type 2.
so if you're going to use Nobody as a basis for her having NEP type 2 the reasoning becomes circular.

....No?

An entity with x properties being considered as a sub-species of entities which have y properties doesn't mean suddenly the entities with the y properties gain the properties of x entity. There's no basis in logic for that line of reasoning.

Naime having Type 2 and being considered as a sub-species of Nobodies, which have Type 1, doesn't mean Nobodies inherently gain similar traits as Namine when they aren't even considered "similar" in that sense, their existences are distinctly dissimilar.

A sub-species of snakes that are poisonous doesn't mean every other species of snake is poisonous. That doesn't logically follow.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

A sub-species of snakes that are poisonous doesn't mean every other species of snake is poisonous. That doesn't logically follow.

Yes but at their very core, they are snakes they won't be a subspecies of something if they go far different from their original design or be superior to them overall only in specific aspects or characteristics. NEP type 2 is superior in terms of being beyond it all in all so it will be equivalent to calling a Dragon a subspecies of a snake.

eitherway besides the point since my point still stands irregardless of whether it being a subspecies is circular or not so let's just ignore that analogy

 

[Deceived3596]

Yes but at their very core, they are snakes they won't be a subspecies of something if they go far different from their original design or be superior to them overall only in specific aspects or characteristics. NEP type 2 is superior in terms of being beyond it all in all so it will be equivalent to calling a Dragon a subspecies of a snake.

NEP (Type 2) doesn't change what you categorically exist as, like if you're a human that has Type 2, you don't stop being a "human" categorically. You're just blatantly wrong on this point.

There's nothing circular about having properties distinct from the main species you're a part of.

eitherway besides the point since my point still stands irregardless of whether it being a subspecies is circular or not so let's just ignore that analogy

Your point doesn't stand, it doesn't make sense.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Your point doesn't stand, it doesn't make sense.

The point that i mentioned afterwards regarding the context of the story and scans? how so?

 

[Deceived3596]

The point that i mentioned afterwards regarding the context of the story and scans? how so?

@ThanatosX and @Nehz_XZX Already addressed why the context provided doesn't disprove Type 2 sufficiently, so I'm not going to address it as it would be redundant.

I just wanted to address the category section of your post because of how blatantly wrong it was.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

@ThanatosX and @Nehz_XZX Already addressed why the context provided doesn't disprove Type 2 sufficiently, so I'm not going to address it as it would be redundant.

I just wanted to address the category section of your post because of how blatantly wrong it was.

they merely corrected misconceptions and their correction did not invalidate how it is simply Namine having more aspect that doesn't exist since Nobody isn't fully nonexistent in all aspect such as soul and mind.

 

[Deceived3596]

they merely corrected misconceptions and their correction did not invalidate how it is simply Namine having more aspect that doesn't exist since Nobody isn't fully nonexistent in all aspect such as soul and mind.

I don't agree, their arguments did invalidate your claim imo.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I don't agree, their arguments did invalidate your claim imo.

things we agreed on

So she lacks both a Heart (her Concept) and also she lacks what all the elements of a Nobody.

And the elements that nobody possesses is that despite being nonexistent they have a spirit and memories/mind as shown in their Nobody Physiology.
so her lacking elements of nobody could simply also point to that. so what makes Nep Nature 2 more convincing than this alternative in this direction?

And lastly, Nehz only answered regarding her being heartless due to reasons