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KIngdom Hearts Conceptual Light/Darkness->Hearts and Nobody NEP

Pain_to12 said:
The nobodies won’t qualify for NPE due to the fact that still have a soul but they qualify for abstract existence

True KH gets CM1

Corruption for xenahort

Explain this better

Longetivity for them or immo type 1

Self sustenance I guess

NPI with keyblade

Resistance to data manip I guess

Immo type 9

Can be CM or light and dark manip, so maybe a possibly with a note on his it works
Click to expand...
What does having a soul to do with Nonexistent Physiology? Lacking a soul is brought up as an example for Material Nonexistence but it is an example and not a requirement. The soul is also mentioned for Spiritual Nonexistence I guess but it isn't a requirement for the other aspects. Are you suggesting Abstract Existence for them being embodiments of nothingness? Type 1 Abstract Existence doesn't fit for Nobodies but I don't think that Type 2 fits to them either. Nobodies don't regenerate and the Resurrection is connected with the heart and not nothingness and considering that Nobodies lack their hearts they can hardly be considered embodiments of their hearts.

Yeah, that was already agreed upon and makes sense.

Xehanort already has that for a different reason but it gives him an additional justification and application for it.

You can see it here for yourself. Xehanort extracted the darkness out of Ventus and made a separate person with it. Vanitas would then go on to be a major antagonist in the series.

Nobodies already have Type 1 Immortality listed, so the only thing that needs to be done here is to add that it was stated that they don't age.

Okay, I can agree with that.

Keyblades already have that.

Hearts already have that.

For whom? For everyone who has a heart or do you have specific characters or feats that were mentioned in mind?

Okay?
 
Hey so I know this isn’t the CRT for it but is there a reason Data Sora and Ansem are Low 2-C but a lot of other characters aren’t?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
What does having a soul to do with Nonexistent Physiology? Lacking a soul is brought up as an example for Material Nonexistence but it is an example and not a requirement. The soul is also mentioned for Spiritual Nonexistence I guess but it isn't a requirement for the other aspects. Are you suggesting Abstract Existence for them being embodiments of nothingness? Type 1 Abstract Existence doesn't fit for Nobodies but I don't think that Type 2 fits to them either. Nobodies don't regenerate and the Resurrection is connected with the heart and not nothingness and considering that Nobodies lack their hearts they can hardly be considered embodiments of their hearts.

Yeah, that was already agreed upon and makes sense.

Xehanort already has that for a different reason but it gives him an additional justification and application for it.

You can see it here for yourself. Xehanort extracted the darkness out of Ventus and made a separate person with it. Vanitas would then go on to be a major antagonist in the series.

Nobodies already have Type 1 Immortality listed, so the only thing that needs to be done here is to add that it was stated that they don't age.

Okay, I can agree with that.

Keyblades already have that.

Hearts already have that.

For whom? For everyone who has a heart or do you have specific characters or feats that were mentioned in mind?

Okay?
Click to expand...
Hmmmn I will go through this later his seems a bit scattered
 
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Nehz_XZX said:
Yeah, that was already agreed upon and makes sense.
Xehanort already has that for a different reason but it gives him an additional justification and application for it.
Nobodies already have Type 1 Immortality listed, so the only thing that needs to be done here is to add that it was stated that they don't age.
Okay, I can agree with that.
Keyblades already have that.
Hearts already have that.
Click to expand...
All of these answers were agreements as well as a number of clarifications for when something is at least partially already on the pages. I'm not expecting to get answers for them.

Nehz_XZX said:
What does having a soul to do with Nonexistent Physiology? Lacking a soul is brought up as an example for Material Nonexistence but it is an example and not a requirement. The soul is also mentioned for Spiritual Nonexistence I guess but it isn't a requirement for the other aspects. Are you suggesting Abstract Existence for them being embodiments of nothingness? Type 1 Abstract Existence doesn't fit for Nobodies but I don't think that Type 2 fits to them either. Nobodies don't regenerate and the Resurrection is connected with the heart and not nothingness and considering that Nobodies lack their hearts they can hardly be considered embodiments of their hearts.
Click to expand...
This is about Nobodies qualifying for Abstract Existence according to you. Nobodies don't lack a true physical form and they do not resurrect or regenerate through nothingness as far as I'm aware.

Nehz_XZX said:
For whom? For everyone who has a heart or do you have specific characters or feats that were mentioned in mind?
Click to expand...
This is about Immortality Type 9. I'm asking which characters would get this through which feats.

Nehz_XZX said:
Okay?
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure about that one last point but I'm willing to just leave it.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
You can see it here for yourself. Xehanort extracted the darkness out of Ventus and made a separate person with it. Vanitas would then go on to be a major antagonist in the series.
Click to expand...
Okay, I sort of forgot about this part. You wanted a better explanation for Ventus getting split into two people, so here you can see it yourself.
 
I think the Immortality type 9 thing would come out of the Nobody being resurrected by it coming back whole if the Heartless' heart was freed too, with the thing in another plane of existence for these purposes being the heart itself.
 
The blog on the OP already outlines that Nobodies are stated to be of nonexistent nature several times out of lacking a heart, and thus light and darkness in the process, which make what exist and you've already accepted that part.

Hence the argument goes that they qualify for type 3 NEP as while they're not incorporeal, they do behave as if they weren't there when a regular attack is aimed at them, like the cited case of Roxas being unable to hit a Nobody until he got a mean to do that (Aka, a Keyblade).
 
Bobsican said:
The blog on the OP already outlines that Nobodies are stated to be of nonexistent nature several times out of lacking a heart, and thus light and darkness in the process, which make what exist and you've already accepted that part.

Hence the argument goes that they qualify for type 3 NEP as while they're not incorporeal, they do behave as if they weren't there when a regular attack is aimed at them, like the cited case of Roxas being unable to hit a Nobody until he got a mean to do that (Aka, a Keyblade).
Click to expand...
This works and also power nullification for keyblade for the feats so far
 
I wouldn't say it's power null, Non-Physical Interaction would fit more given it's just hitting something otherwise intangible.
Anyways, given that Painto_12 and a staff member (QuasiYuri) are fine with the proposals at this point, I think the thread can be closed unless there's any objection.
What will result indexing-wise will be left for the next thread, as the OP said.
 
For the record, while NEP type 3 was already accepted for Nobodies, I'd like to confirm on the acceptance of the following aspects:

Type 2: Nobodies lack a heart, and thus light and darkness, and so are conceptually nonexistent out of lacking the concepts that make up existence
Type 4: Nobodies behave as nonexistent even in a space made of data, aka, the datascape Twilight Town, and so Hearts also act as a Info Manip fundamental type 2 aspect to qualify for this type (also meaning that hearts get type 2 info manip).
Type 5: Hearts also define aspects such as memories and emotions, which Nobodies lack, granting some resistance to Emphatic Manip and Memory Manip, this is also consistent with Naminé, whose powers revolved around changing memories, being unable to affect them.
 
Last edited:
Bobsican said:
NEP type 3 was already accepted for Nobodies
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT I was told by Bobsican to ping you for this topic since I had some caveats about it.

"The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence." (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonexistent_Physiology)

This wording is a bit weird to me since it says that the physical body of a character with this ability needs to be nonexistent which would be the case for Nobodies but then proceeds to say that this means Incorporeality. Bobsican told me that Type 1 and 2 Nonexistent Physiology is basically Incorporeality with more steps, so instead of saying that a character needs to lack a body the page says that it needs to be nonexistent and that having a nonexistent body means that you are incorporeal which does feel rather convoluted to me. I'm aware that this means that Nobodies don't qualify for Type 1 or 2 Nonexistent Physiology due to actually having a body even if it is of a nonexistent nature and that it has now been agreed that Nobodies qualify for a form of Nonexistent Physiology but I still have some problems with Nobodies having Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology.

"To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence."

I don't think that there was a direct statement for Nobodies now being immune to Heart Manipulation but this is kinda something that can be derived from the fact that they lack it. There is Naminé being unable to manipulate their memories but Nobodies do in fact have memories though you could argue that there are differences with memories of the soul/mind and memories of the heart in the series.

"Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities."
"The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type."

These parts of Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology would presumably cover for how Nobodies aren't just nonexistent in response to being attacked.

"In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously."

This seems rather iffy to me since according to Kingdom Hearts logic Nobodies would quite firmly be 0. Paradoxical existence depends on the character actually existing in some capacity while displaying traits of nonexistence whereas Nobodies are considered nonexistent to the point where people talking about their existence get corrected about it being nonexistence.
 
Bobsican said:
...Perhaps we should move the Nobody stuff to the next CRT?
Click to expand...
Well, this CRT is also for Nonexistent Physiology of Nobodies, so I feel like as if this isn't the wrong place to discuss it but if you feel like you want to handle other revisions together with this particular discussion, then I don't mind.
 
NEP in itself was already accepted and with the aspect and type stuff as that was already proposed in the OP at the start. This CRT in itself was only delayed out of concerns in your part on if this was really appropiate/accepted.
Therefore perhaps it'd be best to do another CRT as it's clear not many are willing to check these semantics in this thread, and it'd be more appropiate to do so in another thread, taking it as accepted as is for the moment.
 
Bobsican said:
NEP in itself was already accepted and with the aspect and type stuff as that was already proposed in the OP at the start. This CRT in itself was only delayed out of concerns in your part on if this was really appropiate/accepted.
Therefore perhaps it'd be best to do another CRT as it's clear not many are willing to check these semantics in this thread, and it'd be more appropiate to do so in another thread, taking it as accepted as is for the moment.
Click to expand...
Okay. If this is how it is, then I'm going to bring that up in another thread.
 
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