KIngdom Hearts Conceptual Light/Darkness->Hearts and Nobody NEP

[ArkhamDC06]

While I have already answered these questions there is actually more to say to the topic of what hearts are capable of and how they influence people that I haven't brought up yet, so I feel like as if it would be appropriate to do so now for the purposes of this thread.

• Hearts cannot be contained by data and the process of digitalizing them is incalculable. A machine designed to digitalize an artificial Kingdom Hearts failed and exploded.
• Digital beings can have hearts despite hearts being uncontainable for data. A digital being gained a real Keyblade in place of an inferior imitation it previously had signifying that it had a real heart and it was said that it had surpassed the system because of that.
• It's impossible to recreate a heart based on data and a process like that can only achieve a partial restoration.
• When Xehanort's heart possessed Terra Terra's previously brown hair turned white and his eye color changed to yellow both of which come from the white-haired and yellow-eyed Xehanort. Later in the series people who carry a fragment of Xehanort's heart are shown to have yellow eyes.
• Vanitas, the person whose heart only contains darkness, took on a similar appearance to Sora the moment Ventus, Vanitas' other half that only has light, came in contact with Sora's heart.
• Memories are a key element of the heart and if they are lost, forgotten or altered, then that can result in things like the heart collapsing or reality being rewritten. Memories can however never truly fade and the heart can recognize things that the mind doesn't.
• Sora was able to make an alternate version of a friend he previously met remember him even though he had never met that alternate version before.
• Nomura contemplated the depiction of Sora's heart existing before his birth but discarded the idea due to beliefs from overseas that the heart doesn't exist until after birth.
• Xehanort's heart was merged with another person's and he received glimpses and dreams of that person's life as a result. Sora had the hearts of other people contained in his own that caused to feel a sense of familiarity with people he didn't actually know and even had hallucinations of people that those other hearts knew.
• Disembodied hearts can completely reconstruct their bodies provided there is a medium and a person who remembers them.
• If a Heartless and Nobody, which correspond to the same person that succumbed to darkness and subsequently created them in the process, are destroyed, then that person can come back completely.
• Hearts can form connections which can allow for telepathic communication under certain circumstances and can be used by those who mastered the Keyblade as a method of travelling through space and time.
• Xehanort stated that people who had hearts came from the light that arose from the darkness in which the World, basically the entire setting, began and that the first light is Kingdom Hearts.

I think that sums up pretty much everything

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think that sums up pretty much everything

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will go through all unanswered messages in a few hours sorry for the delay

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I will go through all unanswered messages in a few hours sorry for the delay

Okay.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm not saying that hearts are the same as souls, that's something I'm against. The point is that souls and hearts are both things portrayed as a fundamental metaphysical aspect of whatever has it and that they are similar in that sense. Since souls are always assumed to be something that someone has for the purposes of the application of Soul Manipulation doing the same for hearts would hardly make any practical problems and it wouldn't even be much of a stretch since the concept of a heart as the source of emotions is a fairly wide-spread one even if manipulating that sort of thing isn't. In fact, I'd argue that your idea that hearts cannot be equivalized despite being universal aspects would cause more trouble since hearts are also the basis of powers like Duplication, Transmutation, Corruption, Existence Erasure, Possession, Immortality Type 6 and Power Bestowal in the verse as the pages for Heartless Physiology and the Keyblade exemplify and that isn't even going into the Resistances that exist because of them. We'd basically need to make an overhaul for the whole verse if we go with your idea here.

There are also a few more things I'd like to note about Keyblades to provide further context:

"Nomura: The Master knows about its existence. Using the X-blade as a model, he creates his own Keyblades. Well, by create I don’t mean that in the physical sense, such as forging and tempering them, I mean more along the lines of pulling one out from the depths of a heart." (https://www.khinsider.com/news/fami...-hearts-hd-2-8-nomura-interview-released-8108)

In the series the X-Blade is used to control Kingdom Hearts which would qualify as a type 1 concept and Keyblades were created based on the X-Blade as a model. These Keyblades are forged from the depths of a heart. Another noteworthy fact about Keyblades is the fact that they were used in Kingdom Hearts 3 Re:Mind to temporarily hold back the true Kingdom Hearts with it explicitly stated that those without Keyblades cannot do that.

So far throughout this thread the heart in KH is not only an organ but some sort of metaphysical thing, there is no way you can actually equalize that with another verse, I don’t know how it is been done before but it doesn’t make much sense
Let me give the example again, we have a character from another verse who can live without his heart or regenerate his heart been destroyed, you can’t say destroying the persons heart means automatic EE
Also most verse tend to say emotion comes from the heart cause emotional pain is felt in the chest.
The hearts in the KH are too specific for equalization
Of course any ability granted by using keyblade can still be used in verse equalization just not on an ordinary organ heart

 

[Bobsican]

Wait, "not only an organ"? Uh... again, they're explicitly entirely separate things, lacking the organ doesn't mean someone lacks the metaphysical thing, or vice-versa technically speaking, or in other words they aren't bound to each other (nor are the same thing), and the ones that matter here are the metaphysical thing, the organ is simply irrelevant here, so IDK from where you think it's related or so beyond names.
Case in point, Woody and others are stated to have a heart, yet also are confirmed to just be plastic and cloth, which really implies they don't have the organ, which frankly is the case considering Toy Story 1 and 2 are canon before these events.
Therefore equalizing hearts in match-ups would be no different from assuming the opponent has a soul by default, as Nehz pointed out.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So far throughout this thread the heart in KH is not only an organ but some sort of metaphysical thing, there is no way you can actually equalize that with another verse, I don’t know how it is been done before but it doesn’t make much sense
Let me give the example again, we have a character from another verse who can live without his heart or regenerate his heart been destroyed, you can’t say destroying the persons heart means automatic EE
Also most verse tend to say emotion comes from the heart cause emotional pain is felt in the chest.
The hearts in the KH are too specific for equalization
Of course any ability granted by using keyblade can still be used in verse equalization just not on an ordinary organ heart

Organ hearts have absolutely nothing to do with the hearts that are the topic of this thread. This is how hearts look like in Kingdom Hearts. They don't even look similar to the organ. In fact, people mention them as strange floating heart symbols in-universe. I'd also like to point out that people in Kingdom Hearts have three primary components which are the body, the soul and the heart which means that the heart is supposed to be completely separate from the body. I'm baffled that anyone who has read the thread could still think that we are talking about hearts that are physical organs considering that it has repeatedly been pointed out that they aren't physical and the body has also been repeatedly mentioned as a separate thing.

The hearts we are talking about have quite explicitly nothing to do with the organ, so that comparison doesn't fit. One of the reasons why I believe that manipulating hearts would be applicable in versus threads is that this is how souls are handled as far as I'm aware. We generally assume that everyone has a soul and that a character with Soul Manipulation could affect it and that this would work even against characters from verses where there isn't any soul hax or an explicit statement or showcase of souls existing. I'd also like to remind you that hearts aren't limited to people or even living beings. Everything in the setting has a heart.

I've even mentioned that the hearts we are talking about have nothing to do with the organ in the first sentence of a previous answer of mine to you, so either you haven't read it properly or your memory has some serious holes. This isn't even going into how everything in the verse has a heart which includes digital beings which aren't going to have any real biological organs, an animate wooden puppet which is obviously not going to have any organs, trees and even petals. There is also Nobodies growing hearts which if we consider hearts to be the organs here, would mean that they are growing biological organs that allow for emotions which wouldn't make any actual sense with the series' lore. It would get even weirder with Kingdom Hearts. We aren't going to go and say that Kingdom Hearts is an accumulation of organs now, are we?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So far throughout this thread the heart in KH is not only an organ but some sort of metaphysical thing, there is no way you can actually equalize that with another verse, I don’t know how it is been done before but it doesn’t make much sense
Let me give the example again, we have a character from another verse who can live without his heart or regenerate his heart been destroyed, you can’t say destroying the persons heart means automatic EE
Also most verse tend to say emotion comes from the heart cause emotional pain is felt in the chest.
The hearts in the KH are too specific for equalization
Of course any ability granted by using keyblade can still be used in verse equalization just not on an ordinary organ heart

The organ and the metaphorical heart are an entirely different thing, it's even a plot point in III with Davy Jones

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am talking about verse equalization tho
I am saying there is no way you can equalize metaphysical hearts in other verses where they only have the organ heart there seems to have been a mix up I wasn’t not saying the organ heart and metaphysical heart are the same i am saying quite the opposite

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I am talking about verse equalization tho
I am saying there is no way you can equalize metaphysical hearts in other verses where they only have the organ heart there seems to have been a mix up I wasn’t not saying the organ heart and metaphysical heart are the same i am saying quite the opposite

You were saying that the heart in Kingdom Hearts isn't just an organ but also a metaphysical thing which is objectively wrong in the context of the series. The heart we are talking about is completely metaphysical. There is nothing physical and there is nothing that has anything to do with organs. The heart as an organ would therefore be completely irrelevant in regards to the verse equalization of the heart we are discussing here.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Are there characters to make Low 2-C left?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Are there characters to make Low 2-C left?

There still are but Bobsican is working on it. I'm also pretty sure that this is something you should be asking in the Low 2-C thread instead of this one.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Didn't know there was such thread actually, just that KH profiles were put to Low 2-C

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Didn't know there was such thread actually, just that KH profiles were put to Low 2-C

Well, here is the thread.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well that's a really well-made thread and I completely agree with it

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well that's a really well-made thread and I completely agree with it

It's better if you say that in the thread itself.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with OP.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You were saying that the heart in Kingdom Hearts isn't just an organ but also a metaphysical thing which is objectively wrong in the context of the series. The heart we are talking about is completely metaphysical. There is nothing physical and there is nothing that has anything to do with organs. The heart as an organ would therefore be completely irrelevant in regards to the verse equalization of the heart we are discussing here.

Well I didn’t know that they had both I just thought their heart can be both organic and metaphysical
Well that has been cleared up, that can’t be CM2, also in verse equalization them attacking other verses characters heart won’t work the way it does in their verses as well no other verse as far as I know has both organic heart and another which is metaphysical.
But they can get any form of ability that they performed via manipulating another person heart e.g. memory manip, Emphatic manip e.t.c. But they all need to add a note to it I guess

 

[Bobsican]

Again, the organ is entirely irrelevant to the metaphysical thing, and the latter is what's being talked about here.
The organ isn't special at all in this series nor is related to the metaphysical thing it just happens to share a name with, so it's not like there's a part in everything's body that's physically a metaphysical thing as well, but rather such thing not being a part of the equation to begin with, in lack of better terms.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Again, the organ is entirely irrelevant to the metaphysical thing, and the latter is what's being talked about here.
The organ isn't special at all in this series nor is related to the metaphysical thing it just happens to share a name with, so it's not like there's a part in everything's body that's physically a metaphysical thing as well, but rather such thing not being a part of the equation to begin with, in lack of better terms.

I know, that’s what I’m saying also

 

[Bobsican]

Then IDK why you're saying for verse equalization to take place the one from another verse has to have the heart organ (which is entirely unrelated/irrelevant for these purposes) and it also having conceptual ties, unless you mean that what is the metaphysical thing in this series is too specific to be equalized in other verses, to which I guess it's up to what others think on the matter at this point either way.
On another note, why can't it be CM?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Then IDK why you're saying for verse equalization to take place the one from another verse has to have the heart organ (which is entirely unrelated/irrelevant for these purposes) and it also having conceptual ties, unless you mean that what is the metaphysical thing in this series is too specific to be equalized in other verses, to which I guess it's up to what others think on the matter at this point either way.
On another note, why can't it be CM?

I am not saying that rather I am saying that for the verse equalization to happen the other series also need to have a metaphysical heart not just the organ heart
And it can’t be CM cause I don’t see any concept getting manipulated here

 

[ThanatosX]

But Light and Darkness qualify for Concept Type 1, right? Because this two are the fondamental elements that gave birth to everything in the Kingdom Hearts's verse, predating anything that ever existed in the setting.
This two are also essential elements for anything to exist, considering that everything is made of Light and Darkness, as Mickey said. The Hearts are made of this two elements too, and for this reason they are called multiple times the essence of an individual and when someone loses their Heart they stops to exist, like Nobodies.
Considering that there are characters that are able to manipulate the Light and Darkness of the Heart of an individual, I think that this should be enough to give the characters CM Type 1, if I understand the requirements correctly.

 

[PrinceofPein]

But Light and Darkness qualify for Concept Type 1, right? Because this two are the fondamental elements that gave birth to everything in the Kingdom Hearts's verse, predating anything that ever existed in the setting.
This two are also essential elements for anything to exist, considering that everything is made of Light and Darkness, as Mickey said. The Hearts are made of this two elements too, and for this reason they are called multiple times the essence of an individual and when someone loses their Heart they stops to exist, like Nobodies.
Considering that there are characters that are able to manipulate the Light and Darkness of the Heart of an individual, I think that this should be enough to give the characters CM Type 1, if I understand the requirements correctly.

Light and Dark as in concept of light and concept of darkness I.e. destroying either will remove light or dark from reality in totality
Pretty sure they don’t mean light and dark literally in this case

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well I didn’t know that they had both I just thought their heart can be both organic and metaphysical
Well that has been cleared up, that can’t be CM2, also in verse equalization them attacking other verses characters heart won’t work the way it does in their verses as well no other verse as far as I know has both organic heart and another which is metaphysical.
But they can get any form of ability that they performed via manipulating another person heart e.g. memory manip, Emphatic manip e.t.c. But they all need to add a note to it I guess

I know, that’s what I’m saying also

Why are you constantly mentioning the organ then? Let me put this in words that you hopefully understand. The topic of this thread is a metaphysical heart and there is in fact a biological heart as well in the series. In other words there are no weird biological shenanigans and you can generally assume a human's biological structure to be the same in Kingdom Hearts as it would be in real life. The series doesn't really delve much into biology anyway. I also guarantee you that having a metaphysical heart doesn't mean that you have a biological one since that would be nonsense with data, wooden puppets, toys, trees and petals.

Then there is the metaphysical heart. It's separate from the body and it's mentioned as one of the components that make up a person alongside the body and the soul. It has absolutely no connection with biology and it just so happens to have the same name as the organ we call heart but there is no actual connection. There was in fact a plot point in KHIII where someone thought that someone else was talking about a metaphysical heart and ended up being dissappointed that it was the organ, so again these two things have nothing to do with each other. It's perfectly possible to not have an organic heart and still have a metaphysical one since the two have no connection.

I am not saying that rather I am saying that for the verse equalization to happen the other series also need to have a metaphysical heart not just the organ heart
And it can’t be CM cause I don’t see any concept getting manipulated here

Considering the points I've brought up I hope that you understand that there is no point in bringing up heart organs or using them as examples since they have no relation with the topic other than having the same name.

Light and Dark as in concept of light and concept of darkness I.e. destroying either will remove light or dark from reality in totality
Pretty sure they don’t mean light and dark literally in this case

You mean that light and darkness making up the heart is a metaphor? Not really, it's about as literal as it gets. People in the series can actually derive power from the light and darkness in their hearts and I've mentioned earlier in the thread how someone split someone else into light and dark halves. There have been instances of light or darkness being extracted or brought out from someone's heart, so it's definitely something that is in there.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Considering the points I've brought up I hope that you understand that there is no point in bringing up heart organs or using them as examples since they have no relation with the topic other than having the same name.

I was mentioning how we can’t equate the metaphysical hearts in KH to other series nothing more

You mean that light and darkness making up the heart is a metaphor? Not really, it's about as literal as it gets. People in the series can actually derive from the light and darkness in their hearts and I've mentioned earlier in the thread how someone split someone else into light and dark halves. There have been instances of light or darkness being extracted or brought out from someone's heart, so it's definitely something that is in there.

From the instance I saw it sounds like a metaphor
Isn’t light and dark something similar to good and evil?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I was mentioning how we can’t equate the metaphysical hearts in KH to other series nothing more

From the instance I saw it sounds like a metaphor
Isn’t light and dark something similar to good and evil?

Nobody argued that other series' heart organs should be equated to metaphysical hearts, so these comparisons of yours were really inappropriate and seriously missing the point here.

Not really. Some characters in the series do display an opinion like that light is good and dark is evil but the series has made a point that this isn't the case. While darkness is the source of a lot of dangers encountered in the series and it is associated with negative emotions characters who use darkness or harbor a noteworthy amount of it can be heroic, benevolent and well-meaning. There are also Spirit Dream Eaters which are creatures of darkness that serve as allies in KH3D. On the other hand characters associated with light can be quite misguided at times. One thing about the series that I can tell you is that it usually takes its metaphors literally.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

How about we simply drop this subject now?

 

[ThanatosX]

Hearts being made of Light and Darkness is not a metaphor, but how it really is as seen in the beginning of Birth by Sleep.
Basically, Xehanort extracted the Darkness from Ventus' Hearts, and as you can see this actually translate in a big part of his Heart completely missing.
That big platform is the inside of the Heart of an individual, which is seen multiple times throught the series and further proves that the Heart we are talking about doesn't have anything of biological.
As you can see in the video, the extraction of the Darkness resulted in the disappearence of a big part of the platform, his Heart.
So, considering that the Hearts are actually made of Light and Darkness, being able to manipulate them and interact with them should give some kind of ability since, as explained before, Light and Darkness are the fundamental part of all of existence.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, about Vanitas Bein Ventus's Darkness, Remind seems to disagree

Aside from that, I agree with this (it likely means some form of conceptual manipulation)

 

[PrinceofPein]

Hearts being made of Light and Darkness is not a metaphor, but how it really is as seen in the beginning of Birth by Sleep.
Basically, Xehanort extracted the Darkness from Ventus' Hearts, and as you can see this actually translate in a big part of his Heart completely missing.
That big platform is the inside of the Heart of an individual, which is seen multiple times throught the series and further proves that the Heart we are talking about doesn't have anything of biological.
As you can see in the video, the extraction of the Darkness resulted in the disappearence of a big part of the platform, his Heart.
So, considering that the Hearts are actually made of Light and Darkness, being able to manipulate them and interact with them should give some kind of ability since, as explained before, Light and Darkness are the fundamental part of all of existence.

With this description it can give light manip or darkness manip not CM

 

[Bobsican]

...Can you explain what criteria is missing to fill for CM regarding individual hearts?
I don't think light and darkness in themselves need much of an argument given that true KH being a type 1 concept seems to be an accepted thing by now out of not only predating the universe, but also everything's existence being tied to it (and of course being such light and darkness as a whole to begin with), so with individual hearts being what make it up in the first place, it stands to reason that they should be on the same level, especially when how somebody's existence can also be affected if the respective heart is, the only difference between true KH and a individual heart in practice is just range, and we no longer require universal range within their effect to be either type 1 or type 2.
And before you think it's a figurative over good and evil, no, it's made clear that negative emotions just happen to create more darkness, it's even a plot point for Xehanort to harvest bad thoughts on Terra so he becomes easier to use as a vessel out of getting more darkness.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Seen all these and the difference between True KH and other individual heart is not just range it’s a lot more
1. Predating existence
2. Independent of the reality it governs

And also the whole light and dark shenanigans so far is just darkness and light manip so far none fits conceptual manip

 

[Bobsican]

1: Does this apply even if they're a part of true KH, which does predate existence and all?
2: Can you explain?

As for the light and darkness stuff, well, true KH is made of those to begin with, which in turn make existence and more specifically hearts, so several hearts being "newer" than true KH isn't as much of a factor when their components are as old as it anyways.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So, how would verse equalization with the heart be handled? It doesn't affect biology and simply having a heart doesn't really give you any particular powers.

 

[Bobsican]

It does give a resistance to data manip and vulnerabilities based on emotions, but per versus thread rules we don't give powers or weaknesses to other characters out of simply having something equated per verse equalization, so it'd just be there for the purposes of manipulation.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It does give a resistance to data manip and vulnerabilities based on emotions, but per versus thread rules we don't give powers or weaknesses to other characters out of simply having something equated per verse equalization, so it'd just be there for the purposes of manipulation.

These are just qualities of the hearts themselves. Unless someone can use attacks that either involve or target them, that wouldn't make an actual difference.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well Xehanort is seen attacking and affecting hearts several times in the series (releasing Vanitas from Ventus, attacking Sora in DDD, shatteing Kairi's heart, etc)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well Xehanort is seen attacking and affecting hearts several times in the series (releasing Vanitas from Ventus, attacking Sora in DDD, shatteing Kairi's heart, etc)

Yeah, but this is in the context of verse equalization. If a verse doesn't really delve into the topic of hearts, then a character from that verse won't get any abilities he can actually make use of on his own through having a heart since said verse wouldn't have any powers that can directly affect or make use of hearts. If a verse does delve into the topic of hearts, then we'd probably need to discuss this on a case-to-case basis though I don't know any such verses other than Kingdom Hearts.