KIngdom Hearts Conceptual Light/Darkness->Hearts and Nobody NEP

[ThanatosX]

After reading the blog and all the comments, I am personally leaning towards agreeing with the proposal at the moment.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, maybe, True KH should be fine as a type 1 concept as it was around before the universe and the existence of everything is bound to it. However, while its made of Hearts, each Heart is also born whenever another being is, meaning that a individual Heart doesn't exist until after birth, so either we get multiple types of CM here (one of manipulating True KH, and another for an individual Heart), or we just relate the fact that all Hearts regardless of origin and time they were born are a part of True KH and accept them as a type 1 concept.

Explain this bit more
The part where all heart are part of the true KH but does not exist until someone is born isn’t that contradictory?

If true KH can manipulate all of reality and exists before the universe then CM 1 is fine
But the NEP for nobodies is iffy as soul is not heart

 

[Bobsican]

Not really, it should be as simple as such new Hearts simply inherently becoming bound to true KH, respectively.

True KH was originally going to be used by Xehanort to erase the universe, and not only he confirms true KH was around before the universe, the KH Memorial Ultimania also supports that:

Page 7

I'm including the other two KHs (The one of Worlds and of People) here to avoid potential misconceptions, but anyways, at the bottom true KH is stated to have existed "since the beginning of the world", which further backs up Xehanort's statement on this, while we're at it, the Character Files book also states that it's as old as time.

If your misconception is a contradiction of true KH being older than the universe and it not existing until someone is born... I think you mixed things up. As it can be seen in the picture above and more specifically here, true KH is a union of all Hearts there are, and (individual) Hearts in themselves are just what make it up, which are simply what enable something to exist and other things (And are the ones that can exist after birth), this is explained in more detail in this part of the blog at the OP, and so a new Heart can presumably just be inherently bound to it, so it wouldn't be a contradiction really, but the question would still remain if given this a individual Heart can qualify as a type 1 concept out of being a part of true KH, which existed before the universe and makes all that exists and all.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Regarding the topic of hearts not being souls there is also the existence of Hades, a god governing death and the underworld, in the series. He trapped in KHII Auron's soul in a statue. There is also The Final World which is connected to death as well but is quite obviously not the underworld Hades governs.

The FW is basically the last step before proper death according to KHIII

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Also, I personally agree with the thread (honestly, I thought the conceptual nature of Darkness and Light were already established)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Also, I personally agree with the thread (honestly, I thought the conceptual nature of Darkness and Light were already established)

In the sense that they are immaterial forces that predate the universe?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah pretty much, I mean it was established in the series darkness preceded everything and worlds came from the light produced by KH, wich existed before worlds so both Light and Darkness existed before the universe was created

 

[PrinceofPein]

Not really, it should be as simple as such new Hearts simply inherently becoming bound to true KH, respectively.

True KH was originally going to be used by Xehanort to erase the universe, and not only he confirms true KH was around before the universe, the KH Memorial Ultimania also supports that:

Page 7

I'm including the other two KHs (The one of Worlds and of People) here to avoid potential misconceptions, but anyways, at the bottom true KH is stated to have existed "since the beginning of the world", which further backs up Xehanort's statement on this, while we're at it, the Character Files book also states that it's as old as time.

If your misconception is a contradiction of true KH being older than the universe and it not existing until someone is born... I think you mixed things up. As it can be seen in the picture above and more specifically here, true KH is a union of all Hearts there are, and (individual) Hearts in themselves are just what make it up, which are simply what enable something to exist and other things (And are the ones that can exist after birth), this is explained in more detail in this part of the blog at the OP, and so a new Heart can presumably just be inherently bound to it, so it wouldn't be a contradiction really, but the question would still remain if given this a individual Heart can qualify as a type 1 concept out of being a part of true KH, which existed before the universe and makes all that exists and all.

From reading this, only true KH can get type 1 from the fact that it existed before and has the power to govern the universe
But for individual hearts that will be a no unless individual heart been bound to the true KH means they can tap into its power and have feats on its level

 

[Nehz_XZX]

From reading this, only true KH can get type 1 from the fact that it existed before and has the power to govern the universe
But for individual hearts that will be a no unless individual heart been bound to the true KH means they can tap into its power and have feats on its level

Would individual hearts be a lesser type of concept then? It has already been established that they aren't souls or minds and that they are essences that are required for existing.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Would individual hearts be a lesser type of concept then? It has already been established that they aren't souls or minds and that they are essences that are required for existing.

Depends on the feat shown and done by the individual hearts
Can I get a general feat or things individual hearts allow for?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Depends on the feat shown and done by the individual hearts
Can I get a general feat or things individual hearts allow for?

Well, other than being required to exist they are responsible for emotions and hearts separated from their bodies and souls/minds can still think and even hold conversations. A disembodied heart is among other things capable of time travel though that is subject to certain rules. A large collection of hearts can be used to create artificial lesser versions of Kingdom Hearts. Another aspect of hearts is that everything has a heart in the setting. A major plot point of the series is that Xehanort implanted other people with fragments of his own heart to gradually turn them into other versions of himself. Hearts also contain light and darkness both of which precede the universe.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, other than being required to exist they are responsible for emotions and hearts separated from their bodies and souls/minds can still think and even hold conversations. A disembodied heart is among other things capable of time travel though that is subject to certain rules. A large collection of hearts can be used to create artificial lesser versions of Kingdom Hearts. Another aspect of hearts is that everything has a heart in the setting. A major plot point of the series is that Xehanort implanted other people with fragments of his own heart to gradually turn them into other versions of himself. Hearts also contain light and darkness both of which precede the universe.

I can see some other abilities for the hearts but nothing that will grant each hearts conceptual manip
Also are their instances of someone manipulating other people’s heart to probably change their nature or the likes?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I can see some other abilities for the hearts but nothing that will grant each hearts conceptual manip
Also are their instances of someone manipulating other people’s heart to probably change their nature or the likes?

There is a case of someone having been split into two people which only had light and darkness respectively in their hearts resulting in two quite different kinds of people. If a normal person's heart has been stolen or removed, then they will either dissolve or turn into Nobodies which are nonexistent, can't feel emotions and are stated to not age. There is also the case where the person whose heart only had light lost their heart and ended up in an unsupervised coma where they didn't age that lasted for more than a decade. Disembodied hearts can be placed into blank Replicas which will assume the form associated with the heart once this has happened.

 

[Bobsican]

Xehanort destroying Kairi's Heart also meant that she was entirely erased from existence in the process.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Xehanort destroying Kairi's Heart also meant that she was entirely erased from existence in the process.

I'm pretty sure that I already mentioned that hearts are required to exist.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is a case of someone having been split into two people which only had light and darkness respectively in their hearts resulting in two quite different kinds of people. If a normal person's heart has been stolen or removed, then they will either dissolve or turn into Nobodies which are nonexistent, can't feel emotions and are stated to not age. There is also the case where the person whose heart only had light lost their heart and ended up in an unsupervised coma where they didn't age that lasted for more than a decade. Disembodied hearts can be placed into blank Replicas which will assume the form associated with the heart once this has happened.

This won’t grant anything per say it is more of a verse mechanic

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This won’t grant anything per say it is more of a verse mechanic

Are you suggesting to turn this into a verse-specific power? Splitting a person's heart's light and darkness as well as stealing or removing hearts are all things characters or creatures in the series have done with major consequences.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Are you suggesting to turn this into a verse-specific power? Splitting a person's heart's light and darkness as well as stealing or removing hearts are all things characters or creatures in the series have done with major consequences.

Yes but that won’t grant whoever did that feat of splitting heart ability to split other people’s heart outside the verse
So it is indeed a verse specific mechanics

 

[Bobsican]

Ohter people's heart outside the verse? Verse equalization would be applied to begin with from what I recall, and even then we go indexing based on whatever happens inside the respective verse, semantics of that sort would be kept for a versus thread when there's arguments for it.
Anyways, a more relevant question would be if regenerating after the destruction of a body, soul and Heart would qualify for High-Godly regen or not.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yes but that won’t grant whoever did that feat of splitting heart ability to split other people’s heart outside the verse
So it is indeed a verse specific mechanics

I wouldn't be too sure about that being not applicable outside the verse. The heart is a universal thing common to every single thing in the verse except Nobodies who used to have it despite there being multiple worlds which can have different laws. In a versus thread where verse equalization is applied it wouldn't make sense for any existent being with emotions to have for some reason no heart. I'd also like to note that the person who did the feat did it through his Keyblade which has been shown and stated to have the ability to manipulate hearts, so it isn't like as if he is making use of some sort of verse-specific weakness, physiological quirk or the property of some location or that it is something just about anyone in the verse with the proper knowledge could do.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Xehanort destroying Kairi's Heart also meant that she was entirely erased from existence in the process.

Hum if I recall, he didn't destroyed her heart, he shattered it into pieces and it was possible for Sora to gather all pieces and reform her heart so it clearly wasn't erased from existence, otherwise it would have been impossible to do that

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ohter people's heart outside the verse? Verse equalization would be applied to begin with from what I recall, and even then we go indexing based on whatever happens inside the respective verse, semantics of that sort would be kept for a versus thread when there's arguments for it.
Anyways, a more relevant question would be if regenerating after the destruction of a body, soul and Heart would qualify for High-Godly regen or not.

Nope it won’t qualify for high godly

I wouldn't be too sure about that being not applicable outside the verse. The heart is a universal thing common to every single thing in the verse except Nobodies who used to have it despite there being multiple worlds which can have different laws. In a versus thread where verse equalization is applied it wouldn't make sense for any existent being with emotions to have for some reason no heart. I'd also like to note that the person who did the feat did it through his Keyblade which has been shown and stated to have the ability to manipulate hearts, so it isn't like as if he is making use of some sort of verse-specific weakness, physiological quirk or the property of some location or that it is something just about anyone in the verse with the proper knowledge could do.

Hearts in this verse is clearly shown to be the essence of everyone’s being in this case, you gave me an example of someone splitting an heart into light and dark, in other verses unless their essence and existence is brought about by their heart it won’t be the case
A better example will be if there is a character that can survive with his heart outside his body, destroying that heart won’t do anything to him as it is just a body organ not the nature of his existence

 

[Bobsican]

Well, of course we aren't going to equalize the organ with the metaphysical case of this verse, the series even makes it clear those are separate things as explained here in the blog.

Anyways, why wouldn't it qualify for High-Godly exactly?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Hearts in this verse is clearly shown to be the essence of everyone’s being in this case, you gave me an example of someone splitting an heart into light and dark, in other verses unless their essence and existence is brought about by their heart it won’t be the case
A better example will be if there is a character that can survive with his heart outside his body, destroying that heart won’t do anything to him as it is just a body organ not the nature of his existence

The hearts we are talking about have quite explicitly nothing to do with the organ, so that comparison doesn't fit. One of the reasons why I believe that manipulating hearts would be applicable in versus threads is that this is how souls are handled as far as I'm aware. We generally assume that everyone has a soul and that a character with Soul Manipulation could affect it and that this would work even against characters from verses where there isn't any soul hax or an explicit statement or showcase of souls existing. I'd also like to remind you that hearts aren't limited to people or even living beings. Everything in the setting has a heart.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Hum if I recall, he didn't destroyed her heart, he shattered it into pieces and it was possible for Sora to gather all pieces and reform her heart so it clearly wasn't erased from existence, otherwise it would have been impossible to do that

Generally speaking, shattering something into pieces is something for which we use the word destroy as well. If the criteria for destroying is existence erasure, then there would be no real life examples of destruction. Also, the shattering of Kairi's heart coincided with the visual shattering of Kairi's body and without the heart one's body and soul ceases to exist and there was indeed nothing to see of Kairi's body and soul until the pieces of her heart were all assembled, so it isn't wrong to say that she was erased from existence.

 

[Bobsican]

Chirithy also backs up the above

 

[PrinceofPein]

The hearts we are talking about have quite explicitly nothing to do with the organ, so that comparison doesn't fit. One of the reasons why I believe that manipulating hearts would be applicable in versus threads is that this is how souls are handled as far as I'm aware. We generally assume that everyone has a soul and that a character with Soul Manipulation could affect it and that this would work even against characters from verses where there isn't any soul hax or an explicit statement or showcase of souls existing. I'd also like to remind you that hearts aren't limited to people or even living beings. Everything in the setting has a heart.

Well this series kind of differentiate the heart from the soul
And the metaphysical heart is still a verse mechanic and can’t be equalized
Especially the fact that everything has a heart even non living beings

Anyways, why wouldn't it qualify for High-Godly exactly?

Well it doesn’t equate to getting your history/narrative erased

 

[Bobsican]

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

Also, going by that line of thought, any type 1 concept can't be equalized to another verse out of whatever makes up existence in another verse simply never being explicitly stated, which isn't really a standard thing to do, respectively.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well this series kind of differentiate the heart from the soul
And the metaphysical heart is still a verse mechanic and can’t be equalized
Especially the fact that everything has a heart even non living beings

I'm not saying that hearts are the same as souls, that's something I'm against. The point is that souls and hearts are both things portrayed as a fundamental metaphysical aspect of whatever has it and that they are similar in that sense. Since souls are always assumed to be something that someone has for the purposes of the application of Soul Manipulation doing the same for hearts would hardly make any practical problems and it wouldn't even be much of a stretch since the concept of a heart as the source of emotions is a fairly widespread one even if manipulating that sort of thing isn't. In fact, I'd argue that your idea that hearts cannot be equivalized despite being universal aspects would cause more trouble since hearts are also the basis of powers like Duplication, Transmutation, Corruption, Existence Erasure, Possession, Immortality Type 6 and Power Bestowal in the verse as the pages for Heartless Physiology and the Keyblade exemplify and that isn't even going into the Resistances that exist because of them. We'd basically need to make an overhaul for the whole verse if we go with your idea here.

There are also a few more things I'd like to note about Keyblades to provide further context:

"Nomura: The Master knows about its existence. Using the X-blade as a model, he creates his own Keyblades. Well, by create I don’t mean that in the physical sense, such as forging and tempering them, I mean more along the lines of pulling one out from the depths of a heart." (https://www.khinsider.com/news/fami...-hearts-hd-2-8-nomura-interview-released-8108)

In the series the X-Blade is used to control Kingdom Hearts which would qualify as a type 1 concept and Keyblades were created based on the X-Blade as a model. These Keyblades are forged from the depths of a heart. Another noteworthy fact about Keyblades is the fact that they were used in Kingdom Hearts 3 Re:Mind to temporarily hold back the true Kingdom Hearts with it explicitly stated that those without Keyblades cannot do that.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

About Keyblades, wasn't the Master of Masters capable of forging Keyblades directly from the hearts of others? Wouldn't it give him some form of concept manip?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

About Keyblades, wasn't the Master of Masters capable of forging Keyblades directly from the hearts of others? Wouldn't it give him some form of concept manip?

It honestly depends on hearts being concepts and if they don't qualify like Pain to12 says then it isn't.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Of course, I was just wondering about it

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Of course, I was just wondering about it

Okay.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not tier related but am I the only one who seriously wishes for Maleficent to get a role closer to her KHI incarnation? You know, when she had a real major role in a KH story? I mean, she could be so much more dangerous and has a great potential for a seriously major antagonist for the franchise

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Not tier related but am I the only one who seriously wishes for Maleficent to get a role closer to her KHI incarnation? You know, when she had a real major role in a KH story? I mean, she could be so much more dangerous and has a great potential for a seriously major antagonist for the franchise

That question reminds me of the general discussion thread that hasn't been used in quite a while now.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Lol I didn't even known this was still a thing

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Depends on the feat shown and done by the individual hearts
Can I get a general feat or things individual hearts allow for?

I can see some other abilities for the hearts but nothing that will grant each hearts conceptual manip
Also are their instances of someone manipulating other people’s heart to probably change their nature or the likes?

While I have already answered these questions there is actually more to say to the topic of what hearts are capable of and how they influence people that I haven't brought up yet, so I feel like as if it would be appropriate to do so now for the purposes of this thread.

• Hearts cannot be contained by data and the process of digitalizing them is incalculable. A machine designed to digitalize an artificial Kingdom Hearts failed and exploded.
• Digital beings can have hearts despite hearts being uncontainable for data. A digital being gained a real Keyblade in place of an inferior imitation it previously had signifying that it had a real heart and it was said that it had surpassed the system because of that.
• It's impossible to recreate a heart based on data and a process like that can only achieve a partial restoration.
• When Xehanort's heart possessed Terra Terra's previously brown hair turned white and his eye color changed to yellow both of which come from the white-haired and yellow-eyed Xehanort. Later in the series people who carry a fragment of Xehanort's heart are shown to have yellow eyes.
• Vanitas, the person whose heart only contains darkness, took on a similar appearance to Sora the moment Ventus, Vanitas' other half that only has light, came in contact with Sora's heart.
• Memories are a key element of the heart and if they are lost, forgotten or altered, then that can result in things like the heart collapsing or reality being rewritten. Memories can however never truly fade and the heart can recognize things that the mind doesn't.
• Sora was able to make an alternate version of a friend he previously met remember him even though he had never met that alternate version before.
• Nomura contemplated the depiction of Sora's heart existing before his birth but discarded the idea due to beliefs from overseas that the heart doesn't exist until after birth.
• Xehanort's heart was merged with another person's and he received glimpses and dreams of that person's life as a result. Sora had the hearts of other people contained in his own heart that caused him to feel a sense of familiarity with people he didn't actually know and even had hallucinations of people that those other hearts knew.
• Disembodied hearts can completely reconstruct their bodies provided there is a medium and a person who remembers them.
• If a Heartless and Nobody, which correspond to the same person that succumbed to darkness and subsequently created them in the process, are destroyed, then that person can come back completely.
• Hearts can form connections which can allow for telepathic communication under certain circumstances and can be used by those who mastered the Keyblade as a method of travelling through space and time.
• Xehanort stated that people who had hearts came from the light that arose from the darkness in which the World, basically the entire setting, began and that the first light is Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Bobsican]

On another note, in this CRT, hearts not being souls was soundly accepted, so I'd avoid that sort of arguments unless an staff member is willing to claim that our standards allow for stuff that simply has traits "similar" to a soul can be equalized to that indexing-wise, even if the series makes it clear it's a separate thing from that.

While the main premise was undone out of staff apparently not evaluating it well, the stuff over hearts not beign souls remained regardless, now you may we wonder then what they qualify for currently, and the answer is that it's really undecided beyond that and so we're here.