KH Nobody NEP Revisions: More Types plus Transduality

[Dereck03]

Either way, a tally vote should be made, I disagree with NEP 2 and TD 1 and I believe @Theglassman12 disgreed as well, idk about others.

 

[ThanatosX]

Although she developed it but due to her having Nature Type 3 it doesn't seem farfetch

Before dipping out I also want to say that I saw many in this thread use Nature Type 3 for Namine, which I believe is wrong.
As explained before, Type 3 is for characters that exist and don't exist at the same time. Namine is never stated to exist and not exist, lacks a Heart and she also lacks everything that makes a Nobody such, including their not physical body. So I don't see why that would be Type 3, honestly.

Anyways, I understand the argument Namine just being different "Aspects" of NEP, but I personally disagree.
There are multiple other beings that lacks multiple aspects of their own existence, including the Heart. Pureblood Heartless comes to mind, which obviously lacks a body and a soul, but they also lacks a Heart, if I remember correctly, since they are the pure embodiment of the Darkness of the person that loses their Heart.
Yet, Nobodies are stated to be the embodiments of emptiness, actual non-existent beings that lacks both Light and Darkness, with this two elements being stated to be the fundamental aspects of everything. Using the analogy in the NEP page, they would be 0.
Namine lacks even what makes a Nobody, she is neither a 1 (aka Somebodies, something that exist) nor a 0 (aka Nobodies, something that doesn't exist).
But if instead it will be accepted to just add some additional Aspects to Namine, I will have nothing against it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Yeah no I disagree with Deceived’s arguments. Just being “more nonexistent” than a type 1 by itself doesn’t really mean much unless you’re just outside the concept of nonexistence itself, if you’re beyond that then that can qualify for type 2, but otherwise it’s just type 1. Also don’t pull the appeal to authority card on me when you listed yourself as a knowledgeable member on NEP while simultaneously say in this very thread you don’t know shit about type 2.

 

[Deceived3596]

It definitely does mean much Glassman, but I'll explain in more depth why later.

 

[Dereck03]

but treating it for what it is it would only be a higher level of non-existence which =/= a transdual non-existence, and by DT's words NEP2 is not a better non-existence.

Being more nonexistent than a normal nonexistent =/= transdual nonexistent

 

[ImmortalDread]

But it may grant a layered or higher degree if there is some superiority in the context.

 

[Dereck03]

But it may grant a layered or higher degree if there is some superiority in the context.

"If there's" and I already said if there's then it would grant some higher degree

 

[Bobsican]

Then i see bob listed as NEP Knowledgeable member

Then i see this.

Double standards

Also don’t pull the appeal to authority card on me when you listed yourself as a knowledgeable member on NEP while simultaneously say in this very thread you don’t know shit about type 2.

I mean, users have been listed there before even if they aren't fully knowledgeable, now what'd be the minimal benchmark beyond approval is another story, but this is derailing either way.

if Namine's characteristics and treated as a sub-species of a much larger group of Nobody then that by default would make Nobody NEP type 2.
so if you're going to use Nobody as a basis for her having NEP type 2 the reasoning becomes circular.

Uh... is the "and" meant to be "are" here? If not, the sentence seems weird in general, otherwise... Eh, the argument for type 2 NEP is only intended to apply to her, not to all Nobodies.

It seems Deceived already replied to the other stuff on your part.

And this is how you pay me for defending your point of view, smh

@Bobsican Yeah no I disagree with Deceived’s arguments. Just being “more nonexistent” than a type 1 by itself doesn’t really mean much unless you’re just outside the concept of nonexistence itself, if you’re beyond that then that can qualify for type 2, but otherwise it’s just type 1.

Uh... can you be more specific on "outside the concept of nonexistence itself"? Maybe try illustrating that better?

 

[Theglassman12]

From what DT’s explained in the revisions for NEP, other than you being outside of the duality of existence and nonexistence, you have to have the literal concept of nothingness be gone to qualify.

Essentially even if you’re “more nonexistent” than someone else, that’s still just nonexistence as you’re in that same group per say. If you get to the point that you’re at the most conceptual aspect of what nonexistence is, and that’s removed from you completely, you’re outside of what even is nonexistence as it cannot be defined onto you. DT had a more in depth explanation in the revisions thread but that’s the dumbed down version.

 

[Delta333]

Disagree with NEP Type 2 as well, the reason Type 2 is deeper than any layers of Type 1 is because all levels of Type 1 will participate in the concept of nothingness while NEP Type 2 exists outside this general concept entirely, something that's definitely not the case here.

 

[Sniper670]

Essentially even if you’re “more nonexistent” than someone else, that’s still just nonexistence as you’re in that same group per say.

Ehh, Jttw has more than 20 layers of nep 2 for this reason.

If you're nonexistent to a nonexistent being, that's nep 2. Nep 2 is just layered Nep 1

If you get to the point that you’re at the most conceptual aspect of what nonexistence is, and that’s removed from you completely, you’re outside of what even is nonexistence as it cannot be defined onto you. DT had a more in depth explanation in the revisions thread but that’s the dumbed down version.

That's an example and not the rule.

If you're in a state where you're neither existing nor non-existing, that also qualifies eg. BlazBlue nep 2

 

[Theglassman12]

@Sniper670 That's just more type 1 NEP, not type 2.

I never said it was the rule, I'm elaborating what Bob's confused on when it comes to that particular requirement, also I know about Blazblue's NEP 2, I'm the one who gave it to them in the first place.

 

[ThanatosX]

One last thing, I just checked back the thread that revised NEP, and I am honestly convinced that Namine should be NEP Type 2.
In particular, I found this comment by DT that might be helpful:
"Q: if a character lacking his own concepts entirely would this be qualify for idealistic NEP ?
It would qualify for Conceptual Nonexistence. For idealistic one you have to be nothingness other than simply existing or not existing. Unless the lack of concepts includes the lack of the concept of nothingness, it wouldn't be that per default."
Nobodies are stated to be being of nothingness, embodiments of emptiness, which makes sense since they lacks Light and Darkness which are the fundamental aspects of existence in the KH verse. And I would also like to point out that Xehanort himself said that the only way to fully get rid of Darkness was to erase everything and everyone, turning the verse into a void of Light, so when they say that Darkness is half everything and nothing could exist without it it's pretty literal. So, for comparison, the Nobody aren't even that void of Light, they are just nothing, with even the little things they have that are actually non-existent, like their "body" which vanishes from existence.
Considering that Namine lacks everything that makes a Noboby such, it would mean that she would lack even the "nothingness" that makes up a Nobody. I believe that this should be enough, if not for a full NEP 2 at least for a possibly.
But if that's not the case, honestly this whole NEP thing confuses me since this seems to me the text book definition of NEP Type 2.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ThanatosX That’s not really type 2 NEP though. It’s a very specific type of nothingness that isn’t categorized by Nonexistence or existence. Namine’s whole schtick is just her lacking some characteristics of a Nobody but also just being a non-being. Plus DT said you’d need to lack to concept of nothingness for that to be type 2.

 

[Deceived3596]

If that's the definition that's supposed to be conveyed by the explanation then fine, I can see why being more nonexistent than someone who is nonexistent wouldn't be Type 2. But our current explanation needs to be heavily revised because with the current explanation we have, you can have multiple different interpretations on what the explanation conveys, and have them all be correct in a vacuum given the overall "vagueness" of the explanation. It needs to hone in more on the "being above/lacking the concepts of existence and nonexistence" aspect of Type 2 more than it does (just calling it "idealistic nonexistence" isn't enough, it needs more clarification), as it creates confusion as shown in this thread.

I'll cook up a thread about it in the near future.

But on topic with what type of NEP Namine should have, I guess Layered Type 1 makes more sense than Type 2 in this situation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ThanatosX That’s not really type 2 NEP though. It’s a very specific type of nothingness that isn’t categorized by Nonexistence or existence. Namine’s whole schtick is just her lacking some characteristics of a Nobody but also just being a non-being. Plus DT said you’d need to lack to concept of nothingness for that to be type 2.

No offense but can you quote the line from the page that matches what DT said?

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Sniper670 That's just more type 1 NEP, not type 2.

That Arceus NEP downgrade sounds juicy.

 

[Delta333]

No offense but can you quote the line from the page that matches what DT said?

Being nonexistent on a conceptual level isn't by default Nature Type 2. Only if you specifically lack the concept of nothingness, too.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nonexistent-physiology-updating-characters-to-the-new-types.130338/

 

[ImmortalDread]

I said from the page.

 

[Sniper670]

That Arceus NEP downgrade sounds juicy.

I dare you to try it please

 

[ThanatosX]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nonexistent-physiology-updating-characters-to-the-new-types.130338/

That is once again talking about the case in which a character is non-existent on a conceptual level (lack their concept), and that is why no one proposed the Nobody themselves for Type 2. It's not correlated to the actual definition of NEP Type 2, which is what is being discussed right now.

@ThanatosX That’s not really type 2 NEP though. It’s a very specific type of nothingness that isn’t categorized by Nonexistence or existence. Namine’s whole schtick is just her lacking some characteristics of a Nobody but also just being a non-being. Plus DT said you’d need to lack to concept of nothingness for that to be type 2.

A Type of existence that isn't categorized by neither existence nor non-existence is the text book definition of NEP Type 2 in our page, currently, lacking the concept of nonexistence seems more like a facier way to put it honestly.
As it reads:

"The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

Deceived is not wrong, the wording says that they exist "beyond conventional nonexistence", which would mean that a Type of nonexistence that is above normal nonexistence would technically qualify.
I might ask for clarifications from DT on this since if lacking the concept of nonexistence is the way to get Nature Type 2 it's really unclear in our page currently, and a note to specify that would be needed to prevent any further confusion.

 

[Sniper670]

Lacking the concept of nonexistence is not relevant for nature Type 2 at all.

I specifically looked at the thread where Nep was Revised and the one where profiles were being revised. I already mentioned its not the rule.

What you're describing will only get the person to acquire aspect type 2 nep nature type 2. Which is where they lose their concept of nonexistence if they embody it. Ie. Graham for MGK. It was never the requirement, otherwise aspect type 2 would've been used to define nature type 2. And not all nep nature type 2 have type 2 aspect. Did you ask yourself why?

 

[Delta333]

That is once again talking about the case in which a character is non-existent on a conceptual level (lack their concept), and that is why no one proposed the Nobody themselves for Type 2. It's not correlated to the actual definition of NEP Type 2, which is what is being discussed right now.

The current definition of type 2 requires being neither existence nor nonexistence, as long as you're bound by the concept of nonexistence the latter can't be done at all.

Lacking the concept of nonexistence is not relevant for nature Type 2 at all.

I specifically looked at the thread where Nep was Revised and the one where profiles were being revised. I already mentioned its not the rule.

What you're describing will only get the person to acquire aspect type 2 nep nature type 2. Which is where they lose their concept of nonexistence if they embody it. Ie. Graham for MGK. It was never the requirement, otherwise aspect type 2 would've been used to define nature type 2. And not all nep nature type 2 have type 2 aspect. Did you ask yourself why?

Wdym? Aspect type 2 refers to the lack of your own concept of existence, here I'm talking about being outside the general/universal concept of nonexistence, they are not the same.

 

[Bobsican]

The NEP page also states that those with type 2 should at least behave like those with type 1, which just raises further questions.

TBH at this point asking @DontTalkDT to come here wouldn't hurt.

 

[Sniper670]

The current definition of type 2 requires being neither existence nor nonexistence, as long as you're bound by the concept of nonexistence the latter can't be done at all.

Exactly. How would you describe a being who doesn't exist to nonexistent being. That's not conventional at all.

Isn't that where BlazBlue and layered JTtw nep 2 comes from?

There's nothing like layered nep 1. You're outside of conventional nonexistence the moment you're nonexistent to a conventionally nonexistent being. There are no layers to nep 1. This basically fulfills "I'm neither existing nor not existing", as the conventional system of this is something you cannot be found in

What I describe is nep 2, and more of it stacked on top are just layers of nep 2

Wdym? Aspect type 2 refers to the lack of your own concept of existence, here I'm talking about being outside the general/universal concept of nonexistence, they are not the same.

What I'm saying is the only way to get nep nature type 2 from an aspect type 2, is if the concept of nonexistence that you embody, gets nuked. Anything else wouldn't grant nature type 2

 

[ImmortalDread]

Meh higher degree exists for NEP 1 in my opinion

 

[Delta333]

Exactly. How would you describe a being who doesn't exist to nonexistent being. That's not conventional at all.

Isn't that where BlazBlue and layered JTtw nep 2 comes from?

There's nothing like layered nep 1. You're outside of conventional nonexistence the moment you're nonexistent to a conventionally nonexistent being. There are no layers to nep 1. This basically fulfills "I'm neither existing nor not existing", as the conventional system of this is something you cannot be found in

What I describe is nep 2, and more of it stacked on top are just layers of nep 2

To quote from DT in this thread as for why Yogiri is not NEP type 2 but layers type 1

Eh, Type 2 isn't better nonexistence; it's transdual nonexistence. So I don't think being nonexistent to beings that already have a level of nonexistence would qualify.

What I'm saying is the only way to get nep nature type 2 from an aspect type 2, is if the concept of nonexistence that you embody, gets nuked. Anything else wouldn't grant nature type 2

That is not what I mean, you can literally have no aspect type 2 yet can still be NEP 2 just fine.

 

[ThanatosX]

The NEP page also states that those with type 2 should at least behave like those with type 1, which just raises further questions.

TBH at this point asking @DontTalkDT to come here wouldn't hurt.

I messaged DT in his wall, summarizing him the arguments and linking him the CRT. Maybe he will be able to clear this doubts, since at this point I am rather confused about what even is enough to qualify for NEP Type 2.

 

[Sniper670]

To quote from DT in this thread as for why Yogiri is not NEP type 2 but layers type 1

To quote from the same page he created

1. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence

I exist (1) - I don't exist (0)

I don't exist to both 1 and 0. That's further beyond conventional nonexistence. With DTs logic, there can be infinite layers of deeper and deeper nonexistence and still be type 1 when type 2 is a state that exists deeper than type 1.

In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

As described earlier

Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

This entire section goes against what DT said. Transdual nonexistence is not the rule here. It's often, not necessarily always. With even more examples showing different scenarios.

And there very few characters who have nep 2 through Transdual nonexistence. I can think of Touhou.

That is not what I mean, you can literally have no aspect type 2 yet can still be NEP 2 just fine.

Yes. That's why I'm saying Glass's understanding of nep 2 is not entirely accurate.

@ThanatosX That’s not really type 2 NEP though. It’s a very specific type of nothingness that isn’t categorized by Nonexistence or existence. Namine’s whole schtick is just her lacking some characteristics of a Nobody but also just being a non-being. Plus DT said you’d need to lack to concept of nothingness for that to be type 2.

Good Glass, you just described Nep 2.


Tldr: as ThanatosX said, if I exist in a nonexistent state that cannot be categorized by existence and Nonexistence, that's Idealistic nonexistence, as it goes beyond the norm.

 

[Delta333]

To quote from the same page he created

I exist (1) - I don't exist (0)

I don't exist to both 1 and 0. That's further beyond conventional nonexistence. With DTs logic, there can be infinite layers of deeper and deeper nonexistence and still be type 1 when type 2 is a state that exists deeper than type 1.

As described earlier

Being nonexistent to the point of being neither existence nor nonexistence is being further beyond conventional nonexistence, but the opposite, i.e being further beyond conventional nonexistence, does not necessarily mean being neither existence nor nonexistence at all.

This entire section goes against what DT said. Transdual nonexistence is not the rule here. It's often, not necessarily always. With even more examples showing different scenarios.

And there very few characters who have nep 2 through Transdual nonexistence. I can think of Touhou.

Read the page carefully, transdual nonexistence is literally the rule here.

In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

DT knows what he writes, it doesn't go against anything at all, though if not many characters have transdual nonexistence then I guess maybe you don't know why those characters have NEP type 2 in the first place, or it just means those pages are wrong and needs to be revised

Yes. That's why I'm saying Glass's understanding of nep 2 is not entirely accurate.

I don't think that's what Glass said but better wait for him to clarify rather than putting words in his mouth.

 

[Sniper670]

Being nonexistent to the point of being neither existence nor nonexistence is being further beyond conventional nonexistence, but the opposite, i.e being further beyond conventional nonexistence, does not necessarily mean being neither existence nor nonexistence at all.

The moment you stray away from 1 and 0 you don't conform to type 1 anymore. I dunno how many times I'd explain this.

There's nothing like, layered type 1 on the wiki. You're getting too hung up on one random statement DT made a year that he himself wasn't sure about and which has never been a basis for deciding whether someone qualified for Type 2 or not. And it contradicts the page as well

Read the page carefully, transdual nonexistence is literally the rule here.

It's not.

DT knows what he writes, it doesn't go against anything at all, though if not many characters have transdual nonexistence then I guess maybe you don't know why those characters have NEP type 2 in the first place, or it just means those pages are wrong and needs to be revised

I do. Actually spent a week reading all about it on the wiki before I made a crt for Arceus.

The pages aren't wrong. There's just nothing like layered nep 1, anything that goes beyond goes to type 2, and since that's that apex of nonexistence, it only layers from there.

I don't think that's what Glass said but better wait for him to clarify rather than putting words in his mouth.

Agree to disagree

 

[Delta333]

The moment you stray away from 1 and 0 you don't conform to type 1 anymore. I dunno how many times I'd explain this.

There's nothing like, layered type 1 on the wiki. You're getting too hung up on one random statement DT made a year that he himself wasn't sure about and which has never been a basis for deciding whether someone qualified for Type 2 or not. And it contradicts the page as well

Remind me who is the one that makes the new NEP page? Also I have pointed out which part of the page refers to the transdual nonexistence, merely saying "It's not" won't help at all.

I do. Actually spent a week reading all about it on the wiki before I made a crt for Arceus.

The pages aren't wrong. There's just nothing like layered nep 1, anything that goes beyond goes to type 2, and since that's that apex of nonexistence, it only layers from there.

Then feel free to explain to me what type is being outside of the concept of nothingness? Assuming the answer is type 2, then tell me how being more nonexistent than normal nothingness can be on the same level as being outside of the concept of nothingness since both are type 2 according to your logic?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This is sure going into a direction I wasn't expecting.

 

[ThanatosX]

Being nonexistent to the point of being neither existence nor nonexistence is being further beyond conventional nonexistence, but the opposite, i.e being further beyond conventional nonexistence, does not necessarily mean being neither existence nor nonexistence at all.

I know that Sniper already replied to this, but now that I have time I want to throw my opinion in the mix.
Being neither existent nor non-existent is the basic requirement for NEP Type 2, and this is stated in the NEP page.
The example that you previously brought up about Yogiri is that he is more non-existent than an already non-existent character, which however is not the point that is being made here, nor in other cases of characters that have NEP Type 2. Here, Namine is stated to lack the characteristics of a Nobody, aka being of nothingness that are the embodiment of emptiness, stated multiple times to not exist. It's not like she is more existent than them, she lacks their characteristics entirely to the point of being a "non-being in the truest sense of the word".
In this case, it would be:
1 - having a Heart, existing, being complete
0 - not having a Heart, not existing, being nothingness
Namine doesn't have a Heart, naturally, and as such doesn't fall into the 1. However, she also lacks every characterstics of 0, and as such can't fall into that category neither. If a character lacks everything that makes 0 a 0, than they can't be a deeper form of 0, because they wouldn't be 0 in the first place.
There is no need to lack the concept of non-existence, as long as you are neither existence nor non-existence.

And in regards the Transduality part, while I believe this should qualify considering everything previously said, it's also true that the page itself specify that it's not a rule: "Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence." So either the page for NEP should be modified, eliminating the "often" and changing it into a "always", or that's not how it always works and it's just a case by case scenario, which I am more leaning to believe.

This is sure going into a direction I wasn't expecting.

Honestly didn't expect it would go into this direction neither, but I am kinda happy it did. This kind of discussions are always interesting and are also useful to clear up misconceptions or have a better understanding of certaing things.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deceived3596 If you’re talking about the whole “beyond conventional nonexistence” line, I’m pretty sure it’s referring to being undefined by both nonexistence and existence, but if that’s confusing that it needs a rewrite you can make a thread to ask DT about it.

@StrymULTRA if that’s the reason for Arceus’ type 2 then yeah that’s not enough.

@ThanatosX Anos and Graham had type 2 for that argument, but I’ve heard conflicting things about if they even reached that level.

@Sniper670 have you remotely payed attention to anything I’ve said because I literally told you it’s not the rule, this is another way to get type 2 NEP, and this way is what Bob is trying to push for in NEP, hence I’m focusing on this specific aspect to get type 2 NEP.

 

[ThanatosX]

@ThanatosX Anos and Graham had type 2 for that argument, but I’ve heard conflicting things about if they even reached that level.

Interesting, I will try to see if I can find more information about either them or other similiar cases, but it will probably take a while.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Deceived3596 If you’re talking about the whole “beyond conventional nonexistence” line, I’m pretty sure it’s referring to being undefined by both nonexistence and existence, but if that’s confusing that it needs a rewrite you can make a thread to ask DT about it.

@StrymULTRA if that’s the reason for Arceus’ type 2 then yeah that’s not enough.

@ThanatosX Anos and Graham had type 2 for that argument, but I’ve heard conflicting things about if they even reached that level.

@Sniper670 have you remotely payed attention to anything I’ve said because I literally told you it’s not the rule, this is another way to get type 2 NEP, and this way is what Bob is trying to push for in NEP, hence I’m focusing on this specific aspect to get type 2 NEP.

Why did I get ignored...

 

[Theglassman12]

@ImmortalDread because your question was already answered, DT explained in the thread that's a reason to get type 2, and Anos and Graham (two characters in a series you know about) literally had type 2 for this very argument alone.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ImmortalDread because your question was already answered, DT explained in the thread that's a reason to get type 2, and Anos and Graham (two characters in a series you know about) literally had type 2 for this very argument alone.

Alright.

 

[Theglassman12]

Is there anything else left to discuss here or shall the changes be applied and this thread be closed?