Kingdom Hearts Low 1-C Ocean Between Re:Evaluation

[Georredannea15]

That’s exactly my point. Two different space-times cannot share the same axis, so they have to be displaced across a higher-plane. That’s what Xehanort expresses, the Ocean is the plane that keeps all of these worlds apart. Just as it requires a plane for two lines to never intersect, it requires another existence for two planes to never intersect.

Ultima echoed the same sentiment in the original thread, by the way:




That doesn’t make much sense, really. Axis’ are infinite by default, which is why it calls for the existence of a larger axis to contain it in another.

This is already valid for all spaces containing multiverses, but what is important is that the 5th axis, that is, the 5th dimension volume, is significantly large or infinite.

There is a 5th axis here, I don't deny that anyway, but it is unknown how big this 5th axis is, and since it is of an insignificant size at best, this will be a trivial 5-dimensional space(trivial 5th axis, so a trivial 5 dimensional volume.)

According to your logic, every space containing a multiverse should be Low 1-C, but this is wrong and the wiki does not currently accept it as such.

 

[Planck69]

The back-and-forth is starting to clog up the thread since we're ultimately re-iterating the same points. Let's just wait for more staff input if possible.

 

[Theglassman12]

Not exactly seeing the tier 1 statements for the oceans between via having the worlds as being very small, especially with the standard change. So I’m gonna have to disagree with this.

 

[Robo432343]

Not exactly seeing the tier 1 statements for the oceans between via having the worlds as being very small, especially with the standard change. So I’m gonna have to disagree with this.

you're acting like the only statement KH has to stay tier 1 is the worlds being very small...

 

[Planck69]

you're acting like the only statement KH has to stay tier 1 is the words being very small...

Whether Kingdom Hearts remains Tier 1 cause of other reasons isn't relevant here. This is strictly addressing the Ocean Between.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yes, because now "Bigger than 2-A = Low 1-C" doesn't exist anymore. He never said anything about "infinitely bigger" spaces that dwarfs other 4-D structures to the point of those being "small".

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that in the scan it specifically says "the infinite space that surround this small world". A single World (4-D structure) is surrounded by an infinite space (aka the Ocean Between) which keeps every World isolated and prevent them to interact.
Honestly, KH doesn't qualify I am really curious to see what verse would actually qualify for a quantitative superiority, since the standards now became basically impossible to actually get.

Exactly, being infinite in the 5th axis is very specific, does any verse have low 1-C based on this? If there are I imagine not to many.

 

[Bobsican]

Exactly, being infinite in the 5th axis is very specific, does any verse have low 1-C based on this? If there are I imagine not to many.

The tiering changes on this regard are quire recent, there's no precedents at the moment to begin with (anyone is welcome to correct me), so I think it'd be best to evaluate on a vacuum on that regard given that.

BTW, it seems this was ignored:

DT then followed with this:



While it's not directly stated, in this case it's heavily implied given that it's stated to be an hyperspace of infinite size, as we have End of the World as having infinite space (High 3-A, accepted here), add to that its innate time axis per other accepted cosmology semantics on all worlds and you end up with a tier 2 structure that's already infinite in all 4 axises.

Therefore, the same character (Ansem) being aware of this yet specifying that the Ocean Between is infinite compared to a "small" world, and with another source stating it to be an hyperspace (5-D given the context as explained in the OP), really makes it seemingly still fit the current standards, as by that point it'd be rather assumptive to think it's redundantly talking about infinity on one of the 4 axises that already make up a universe.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[SYPHe5D]

Bump

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

The Tier of Low 1-C [6D] is moved to Low 1-C [5D]

Edited: OP seems to make sense.

 

[Eseseso]

OP seems to make sense.

So you agree with KH being downgraded from 6D to 5D?

 

[Bobsican]

...The OP is arguing for 6-D staying, IDK how there's confusion on that.
Thus please be more specific on what leans you to think otherwise.

 

[TiltedFN]

Well because of new standards, im not sure theres enough proof the ocean in between extends infinitely in the 5th axis, so all that would reamin would be the overarching timeline, still low 1-C, but not 6D.

 

[Bobsican]

Well because of new standards, im not sure theres enough proof the ocean in between extends infinitely in the 5th axis, so all that would reamin would be the overarching timeline, still low 1-C, but not 6D.

DT then followed with this:

(jump to the original post to read that)

While it's not directly stated, in this case it's heavily implied given that it's stated to be an hyperspace of infinite size, as we have End of the World as having infinite space (High 3-A, accepted here), add to that its innate time axis per other accepted cosmology semantics on all worlds and you end up with a tier 2 structure that's already infinite in all 4 axises.

Therefore, the same character (Ansem) being aware of this yet specifying that the Ocean Between is infinite compared to a "small" world, and with another source stating it to be an hyperspace (5-D given the context as explained in the OP), really makes it seemingly still fit the current standards, as by that point it'd be rather assumptive to think it's redundantly talking about infinity on one of the 4 axises that already make up a universe.

The current standards make it clear that some degree of case by case evaluation is required given the proof to lean to a qualitative superiority can vary.

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. I had to re-read the OP's use of uncountable.

I'm not sure if we can apply this as the mathematical definition of uncountably infinite.

At the moment, I'm leaning with the Ocean being Tier 2 since the use of hyper/subspace needs more demonstrable characteristics to show superiority per the new standards.

 

[Eseseso]

Sorry. I had to re-read the OP's use of uncountable.

I'm not sure if we can apply this as the mathematical definition of uncountably infinite.

At the moment, I'm leaning with the Ocean being Tier 2 since the use of hyper/subspace needs more demonstrable characteristics to show superiority per the new standards.

By Tier 2 you mean its previous 2-A rating, right?

 

[Theglassman12]

2-B to possibly 2-A yeah, still not really seeing the arguments for tier 1 to be solid enough

 

[AwkguyDB]

Yikes

 

[SYPHe5D]

um are 3 staff disagreements enough?

I assume so if there are 0 agreements, but let’s wait ig.

 

[ThanatosX]

Before applying anything, someone should reply to this argument imho:

DT then followed with this:



While it's not directly stated, in this case it's heavily implied given that it's stated to be an hyperspace of infinite size, as we have End of the World as having infinite space (High 3-A, accepted here), add to that its innate time axis per other accepted cosmology semantics on all worlds and you end up with a tier 2 structure that's already infinite in all 4 axises.

Therefore, the same character (Ansem) being aware of this yet specifying that the Ocean Between is infinite compared to a "small" world, and with another source stating it to be an hyperspace (5-D given the context as explained in the OP), really makes it seemingly still fit the current standards, as by that point it'd be rather assumptive to think it's redundantly talking about infinity on one of the 4 axises that already make up a universe.

As explained by DT, a space containing a 4-D structure is not assumed to be 5-D because it's space can be an extension of the 3rd spatial dimension, making it just a bigger 4-D space in a Spatial sense. However, if the 4-D space contained by the bigger space is already infinite in all 3 Spatial dimension (and obviously its 1 time dimension) than the space containing it can't be the 3rd Spatial dimension since the max extension of said dimension is already reached in the 4-D construct contained, and as such the space containing it needs to be 5-D.
This needs to be answered or debunked before applying any downgrade.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Are the staff saying it goes back to 2A or 5d Low 1c?, still not clear on it

 

[Theglassman12]

DontTalk also said it needs to be stated to move in the 5th dimensional axis for it to qualify too so the “infinite in size compared to another realm” argument doesn’t really hold much ground, plus Hyperspace means having more than 3 dimensions so it doesn’t really prove 5-D, at best it would be 4-D.

Either way there’s enough staff input so the changes can be applied.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’ve been waiting on Ultima before I commented again, so I ask for just 2 more days or so. I don’t want to hold up this thread indefinitely, but considering me and Planck don’t see eye to eye, I’ll just have Ultima try and clarify.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[SYPHe5D]

Well, i assume this is done then ?

 

[Planck69]

It's been two days so I think this can be applied.

@Theglassman12 @Milly_Rocking_Bandit @Bobsican

 

[Eseseso]

The Tier of Low 1-C [6D] is moved to Low 1-C [5D]

What do you think?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It's been two days so I think this can be applied.

@Theglassman12 @Milly_Rocking_Bandit @Bobsican

There would still be another temporal dimension that the Ocean maintains, so even if the 4th spatial dimension is denied, the second temporal one would still make the verse 5-D.

 

[Theglassman12]

Where’s the argument for the second temporal axis?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

What needs to be changed here? The cosmology is still accepted as Low 1-C on account of having a hypertimeline. Does anything change as a result of the Ocean in Between being downgraded?

 

[Eseseso]

Where’s the argument for the second temporal axis?

KH Low 1-C 6-D Upgrade: Mickey Mouse Clubhouse

Here's the arguments and justifications, but in summary, the argument is based on that the Ocean Between (aka, what's currently accepted as a qualitative Low 1-C 5-D structure) has its own time axis from several implications, some which the plot overall relies on to work in the first place and...

vsbattles.com

Check the blog in the OP.

 

[Planck69]

What needs to be changed here? The cosmology is still accepted as Low 1-C on account of having a hypertimeline. Does anything change as a result of the Ocean in Between being downgraded?

It goes down one dimensional level and becomes 5-D.

Where’s the argument for the second temporal axis?

It's in the blog but ultimately, it's not what's tackled on this thread. For now, it's staying 5-D.

 

[Theglassman12]

The temporal axis argument feels a bit iffy but that can be tackled later. For now 5-D Sora it is.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Rest assured, I’ll be back to argue the 4th spatial axis. I just didn’t want you guys waiting several months for a response.

 

[Eseseso]

Rest assured, I’ll be back to argue the 4th spatial axis. I just didn’t want you guys waiting several months for a response.

I can respect that.