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King vs Sanji Rematch 2

Anyways, getting the easy stuff out of the way:

King scales higher in AP
Sanji scales higher in Speed
Sanji has higher heat scaling
King has higher haki scaling (debatable tbh)
King is more durable
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I'd prefer the speed part first.
Click to expand...
Alright.

So right off the bat, we see Base X-Drake react to and dodge attacks from Apoo. Apoo was the same person who could dodge Zoro's hits. Zoro was able to content and was relative in speed with Flame on Base and Zoan forms King.

Pre-Awakening Base Sanji, was only able to react to Zoan X-Drake, but he scales relative in speed to Hybrid Queen who should be at least to his Human form, which was able to tag and put X-Drake down.

All of this proves that Post-Awakening Sanji already scales above Flame On Base and Zoan King.


Now, for Flame Off King, it gets a little bit trickier. We already know that Pre-Awakening Base Sanji scales above Flame Off King in speed and we already know Post-Awakening Base Sanji is faster than Pre-Awakening Base Sanji due to the fact that after his awakening, his Diable Jambe was shown to be faster than it was before then, so the same should apply to his base.

Flame On Base King < Flame On Zoan forms King < Pre-Awakening Base Sanji > Post-Awakening Base Sanji

Flame Off King scales FTE to his Flame On form. Although this is impressive, Post-Awakening Sanji has amps that make him many FTEs above his already superior speed to Flame On King

Flame On Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Flame Off Base King < Flame Off Zoan Forms King

Post-Awakening Sanji's FTE's are the following: Enhanced Speed, Diable Jambe, and Ifrit Jambe. Sanji has shown that he can stack his Enhanced Speed with any of these forms.

Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Enhanced Speed
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE<)< Ifrit Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE + FTE)< Enhanced Speed + Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE< + FTE)< Enhanced Speed Ifrit Jambe


And although this is enough to prove that Sanji's top speed is superior to King's Flame Off speed, that is not it for him. King also has Imperial Deep Pride Stake, which blitzed Zoro, who scales to Flame Off

Flame Off Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Imperial Deep Pride Stake.


Sanji scales much higher in speed.
 
All Imma say is that Zoro was reacting to Kaidou's attacks and tagging him, while stuff like Tempura Udon nearly hit/blitzed him and Flame Off King went FTE to him and landed a swift kick to his mouth.
Keep in mind, Queen < Flame-Off King and Sanji was struggling with Queen and getting tagged by him up until he activated a speed amp which he doesn't normally use, and I don't need to explain IJ.
Though I admit Sanji should be able to keep up with Flame-On King and land some good hits on him, these hits wouldn't do anything to him at all ( shown in his fights with the Seraphim who don't even fully scale to King's durability yet ) and if he turns the flame off it's over for Sanji, he'd get blitzed to hell and back and if he can't react in time to activate Haki or his Exoskeleton to defend against the flames then it's really over.


TLDR, Sanji could tag Flame-On King but sadly can't damage him, and Flame-Off King might be damaged by his attacks but Sanji is slower so he'd just get clapped.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
All Imma say is that Zoro was reacting to Kaidou's attacks and tagging him
Click to expand...
Yes, Zoro was reacting to Kaidou's attacks, but I'm not entirely sure how this discredits what I said above
TheMonkeMan said:
Keep in mind, Queen < Flame-Off King and Sanji was struggling with Queen and getting tagged by him up until he activated a speed amp
Click to expand...
Up until Brachiosnakus (which Queen admitted he only landed because Sanji was off-guard), Sanji only got hit once by Queen, and that was with Flying Pan, which the entire point of the attack is consecutive attacks landing without any sign of stopping or slowing down, so that's not really Sanji's fault.

As for the attacks that Queen landed on Sanji in 1034, that was 100% due to Sanji's extreme fatigue at that point and thats seen by the point where he was struggling to even stand due to exhaustion. I don't think it's fair to say Queen scales to that version of Sanji in speed considering how tired is was. This is noted in the stamina section of his profile.
TheMonkeMan said:
he'd get blitzed to hell and back and if he can't react in time to activate Haki or his Exoskeleton to defend against the flames then it's really over.
Click to expand...
You never addressed what I said above. Until you do that, I don't think just randomly saying that Flame Off King blitzes Sanji is based on anything substantial.
TheMonkeMan said:
these hits wouldn't do anything to him at all
Click to expand...
Maybe, but due to Ifrit Jambe, he would be able to make use of his durability negation and combo King to oblivion. I think this is a good place to pivot into talking about heat scaling, unless you still want to address my points above, as you haven't done so yet. Otherwise, if you're ready, I'll get into scaling both of their heat values.
 
Kachon123 said:
Alright.

So right off the bat, we see Base X-Drake react to and dodge attacks from Apoo. Apoo was the same person who could dodge Zoro's hits. Zoro was able to content and was relative in speed with Flame on Base and Zoan forms King.

Pre-Awakening Base Sanji, was only able to react to Zoan X-Drake, but he scales relative in speed to Hybrid Queen who should be at least to his Human form, which was able to tag and put X-Drake down.

All of this proves that Post-Awakening Sanji already scales above Flame On Base and Zoan King.


Now, for Flame Off King, it gets a little bit trickier. We already know that Pre-Awakening Base Sanji scales above Flame Off King in speed and we already know Post-Awakening Base Sanji is faster than Pre-Awakening Base Sanji due to the fact that after his awakening, his Diable Jambe was shown to be faster than it was before then, so the same should apply to his base.

Flame On Base King < Flame On Zoan forms King < Pre-Awakening Base Sanji > Post-Awakening Base Sanji

Flame Off King scales FTE to his Flame On form. Although this is impressive, Post-Awakening Sanji has amps that make him many FTEs above his already superior speed to Flame On King

Flame On Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Flame Off Base King < Flame Off Zoan Forms King

Post-Awakening Sanji's FTE's are the following: Enhanced Speed, Diable Jambe, and Ifrit Jambe. Sanji has shown that he can stack his Enhanced Speed with any of these forms.

Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Enhanced Speed
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE<)< Ifrit Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE + FTE)< Enhanced Speed + Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE< + FTE)< Enhanced Speed Ifrit Jambe


And although this is enough to prove that Sanji's top speed is superior to King's Flame Off speed, that is not it for him. King also has Imperial Deep Pride Stake, which blitzed Zoro, who scales to Flame Off

Flame Off Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Imperial Deep Pride Stake.


Sanji scales much higher in speed.
Click to expand...
We already know that Pre-Awakening Base Sanji scales above Flame Off King in speed
Click to expand...
First prove this part as it seems like headcanon, then the rest will be addressed.
Kachon123 said:
Maybe, but due to Ifrit Jambe, he would be able to make use of his durability negation and combo King to oblivion. I think this is a good place to pivot into talking about heat scaling, unless you still want to address my points above, as you haven't done so yet. Otherwise, if you're ready, I'll get into scaling both of their heat values.
Click to expand...
This is with the assumption that King will just allow him to beat the hell out of him, though.
Kachon123 said:
Yes, Zoro was reacting to Kaidou's attacks, but I'm not entirely sure how this discredits what I said above
Click to expand...
Doesn't Kaidou scale above Sanji in terms of speed? And Zoro reacted to him, but King was blitzing him.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
First prove this part as it seems like headcanon, then the rest will be addressed.
Click to expand...
I already did in the same message you quoted:
Kachon123 said:
So right off the bat, we see Base X-Drake react to and dodge attacks from Apoo. Apoo was the same person who could dodge Zoro's hits. Zoro was able to content and was relative in speed with Flame on Base and Zoan forms King.

Pre-Awakening Base Sanji, was only able to react to Zoan X-Drake, but he scales relative in speed to Hybrid Queen who should be at least to his Human form, which was able to tag and put X-Drake down.

All of this proves that Post-Awakening Sanji already scales above Flame On Base and Zoan King.
Click to expand...
We also even see Pre-Awakening Sanji being able to react to Flame on and Flame off King here


TheMonkeMan said:
This is with the assumption that King will just allow him to beat the hell out of him, though.
Click to expand...
Due to Sanji being outright faster than King, there's not much he could do.
TheMonkeMan said:
Doesn't Kaidou scale above Sanji in terms of speed?
Click to expand...
Sanji's speed scales above the the Kaidou that fought Zoro's speed.
 
XDragnoir said:
Hybrid Kaido with Thunder Bagua scales slightly above Sanji's peak speed
Click to expand...
This actually isn't true.

Post-Udon Luffy scales to Hybrid Kaido, and Queen scales to Post-Udon Luffy.

Hybrid Thunder Bagua is FTE to Hybrid Kaido, and Sanji has many stackable FTEs as shown here:
Kachon123 said:
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Enhanced Speed
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE<)< Ifrit Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE + FTE)< Enhanced Speed + Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE< + FTE)< Enhanced Speed Ifrit Jambe
Click to expand...
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I'm not doing this shit.
I'm just gonna vote King via better Durability, AP and Speed and be done.
Someone else can argue for me.
Click to expand...
This vote can't be counted when a main factor, King's speed isn't superior to Sanji's.

There's also the fact that King has no real way to counter Sanji's exoskeleton body in a way that he would not be able to regenerate from. It's not as simple as "better AP and durability," especially when the person who he's fighting, Sanji, has durability negation, regeneration, and insane endurance.
 
Kachon123 said:
This actually isn't true.

Post-Udon Luffy scales to Hybrid Kaido, and Queen scales to Post-Udon Luffy.

Hybrid Thunder Bagua is FTE to Hybrid Kaido, and Sanji has many stackable FTEs as shown here:
Click to expand...
Luffy wasn't using FS against Queen tho, that's why his Hybrid Bagua would still scale slightly above.

Also, you sure DJ is an FTE speed amp? It's for sure a good speed amp but i don't remember it actually going FTE.
 
XDragnoir said:
Luffy wasn't using FS against Queen tho, that's why his Hybrid Bagua would still scale slightly above.
Click to expand...
Slightly above FTE Queen, which Sanji is still above. Also, Zoro never reacted to Hybrid Kaido's Thunder Bagua so this point is pretty irrelevant to this match.
XDragnoir said:
Also, you sure DJ is an FTE speed amp?
Click to expand...
Post-Upgrade, yes.

He was able to kick Queen twice without him realizing what happened.
 
Kachon123 said:
This vote can't be counted when a main factor, King's speed isn't superior to Sanji's.

There's also the fact that King has no real way to counter Sanji's exoskeleton body in a way that he would not be able to regenerate from. It's not as simple as "better AP and durability," especially when the person who he's fighting, Sanji, has durability negation, regeneration, and insane endurance.
Click to expand...
This is just blatant lies.
Queen tagged Sanji twice and blocked DJ.
King will definitely be able to react to him and blitz him with his flame off.
And while Sanji has went FTE to Queen, he doesn't do this off the rip and did it because Queen went invisible.
Not to mention that yes, him going FTE to Queen is impressive, but it doesn't mean he can do it with every other character he fights and there's no proof of this either.
His Dura Neg won't do much, as he still needed 10 consecutive hits on a half conscious Queen who was ridiculously off guard, which won't work on King who has somewhat better Durability and Endurance than Queen plus he'll be on guard.
Regeneration is negated by the fact that King will blitz him before he activates the Exoskeleton or Armament Haki and thus he won't have sufficient resistance to his heat, and if his bones/organs are burnt I don't think he can regenerate them.
Not even addressing the endurance part, it's not relevant as he still passed out immediately after ending his fight with Queen.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Queen tagged Sanji twice
Click to expand...
I already addressed this:
Kachon123 said:
As for the attacks that Queen landed on Sanji in 1034, that was 100% due to Sanji's extreme fatigue at that point and thats seen by the point where he was struggling to even stand due to exhaustion. I don't think it's fair to say Queen scales to that version of Sanji in speed considering how tired is was. This is noted in the stamina section of his profile.
Click to expand...

TheMonkeMan said:
blocked DJ.
Click to expand...
This was Pre-Awakening Sanji.
TheMonkeMan said:
King will definitely be able to react to him and blitz him with his flame off.
Click to expand...
What is this based on?
TheMonkeMan said:
And while Sanji has went FTE to Queen, he doesn't do this off the rip and did it because Queen went invisible
Click to expand...
If he's fighting against someone who can increase their speed by that much, I don't see why sanji wouldn't use his own version, although it's not really needed as Sanji's reactions scale to his max speed so any of King's amps wouldn't surprise him too much.
TheMonkeMan said:
His Dura Neg won't do much, as he still needed 10 consecutive hits
Click to expand...
He didn't need that many hits. Thats blatantly wrong and you're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming that.
TheMonkeMan said:
somewhat better Durability and Endurance than Queen
Click to expand...
Durability 100%, but where's the proof of King having greater endurance than Queen?
TheMonkeMan said:
Regeneration is negated by the fact that King will blitz him before he activates the Exoskeleton or Armament Haki and thus he won't have sufficient resistance to his heat, and if his bones/organs are burnt I don't think he can regenerate them.
Click to expand...
Read above. Stop claiming that King is faster than Sanji because that is wrong.
TheMonkeMan said:
it's not relevant as he still passed out immediately after ending his fight with Queen.
Click to expand...
This is getting ridiculous. Read Sanji's stamina section.
 
Oh brother.
Marco was clapping Queen with his attacks, which Sanji only came close to with IJ though that was on a weakened/exhausted, off-guard Queen not to mention it was a combo attack.
Keep in mind, the same attacks Marco used on Queen only knocked King back and made him drip minor amounts of blood... Which is me being generous, as I no longer believe that it was blood dripping from the bottom of his mask there.
It is safe to say that Sanji can not harm Flame-On King at all, as most sensible people would assume.
In terms of speed, it seems that it's Base Sanji < DJ <= Hybrid/Zoan Queen < "Invisible"/FTE Sanji <= IJ.
So the only thing Sanji would have to really allow him to keep up with King is that weird speed amp that makes him go invisible, and IJ.
Though it's important to once again note that these still wouldn't hurt King unless his flame is off.. But then King would blitz as he should be comparable to, Hybrid Kaidou in speed due to Hybrid Kaidou blitzing a weakened Zoro and King blitzing/going FTE to a sort of healthier Zoro.
Kachon123 said:
This is getting ridiculous. Read Sanji's stamina section.
Click to expand...
Idk if you know this but it's still irrelevant as Sanji literally passed out right after delivering the final smackdown on Queen, so his stamina clearly doesn't matter here especially if it's just him getting blitzed to hell and back without being able to properly defend.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Still wouldn't be enough to put him down
Click to expand...
Why not?
TheMonkeMan said:
plus King wouldn't let him beat his ass lol
Click to expand...
He can't really do much when Sanji is much faster than he is.
TheMonkeMan said:
Definitely is, and either way King should blitz.
Click to expand...
Address the arguments. What you're saying doesn't make any sense and is flat out contradicted by the manga panels I posted in my earlier posts that you refuse to even acknowledge. I'm not going to count your vote until you do so.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Read the manga and try to say this again.
I'll be back once you're done.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Kachon123 said:
Alright.

So right off the bat, we see Base X-Drake react to and dodge attacks from Apoo. Apoo was the same person who could dodge Zoro's hits. Zoro was able to content and was relative in speed with Flame on Base and Zoan forms King.

Pre-Awakening Base Sanji, was only able to react to Zoan X-Drake, but he scales relative in speed to Hybrid Queen who should be at least to his Human form, which was able to tag and put X-Drake down.

All of this proves that Post-Awakening Sanji already scales above Flame On Base and Zoan King.


Now, for Flame Off King, it gets a little bit trickier. We already know that Pre-Awakening Base Sanji scales above Flame Off King in speed and we already know Post-Awakening Base Sanji is faster than Pre-Awakening Base Sanji due to the fact that after his awakening, his Diable Jambe was shown to be faster than it was before then, so the same should apply to his base.

Flame On Base King < Flame On Zoan forms King < Pre-Awakening Base Sanji > Post-Awakening Base Sanji

Flame Off King scales FTE to his Flame On form. Although this is impressive, Post-Awakening Sanji has amps that make him many FTEs above his already superior speed to Flame On King

Flame On Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Flame Off Base King < Flame Off Zoan Forms King

Post-Awakening Sanji's FTE's are the following: Enhanced Speed, Diable Jambe, and Ifrit Jambe. Sanji has shown that he can stack his Enhanced Speed with any of these forms.

Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Enhanced Speed
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE)< Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE<)< Ifrit Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE + FTE)< Enhanced Speed + Diable Jambe
Post-Awakening Sanji (FTE< + FTE)< Enhanced Speed Ifrit Jambe


And although this is enough to prove that Sanji's top speed is superior to King's Flame Off speed, that is not it for him. King also has Imperial Deep Pride Stake, which blitzed Zoro, who scales to Flame Off

Flame Off Zoan Forms King (FTE)< Imperial Deep Pride Stake.


Sanji scales much higher in speed.
Click to expand...
Read this.
 
Can you like, not use Drake and Queen as a basis for him being faster than King?
King scales considerably above Drake, and above Queen by a small margin ( being generous by saying it's a small margin ).
 
Just realized he said Pre-Awakening Base Sanji is above Flame Off King, so I'm just gonna leave this match on the grounds of him either being a troll or incredibly illiterate Sanji wanker.
 
Kachon123 said:
Proof?

Also, even ignoring the Drake argument, these panels still exist of PRE-UPGRADE SANJI reacting to both Flame on and Flame of Base King and countering their kicks.
Click to expand...
Outlier, just like Zoro hurting/stunning Flame On King prior to their fight where it was revealed he couldn't even put a dent in him with stuff like Shishi Sonson.
 
Kachon123 said:
Is this for the reasons above?
Click to expand...
Kinda, to oversimplify my thoughts, I think he could definitely figure out King's Lunarian powers like Zoro did, and with his speed and superior obv Haki (IMO), he could capitalize with Ifrit which he should be able to sustain for much longer in a 1v1 fight where he's not physically and mentally drained from just awakening his exoskeleton and fighting the whole raid.
 
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