Jotaro (EoH) VS Jiren (DBS)

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Jiren can't even use his regular full power here...

it's base Jiren, and for some reason, this wiki counts full power Jiren as a transformation, when that's literally his base form


In all likely hood, if he didn't right off the bat kill Jotaro, he'd trap him in a ki sphere


either way, Jiren gets folded by reality warp

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Yeah unfortunately, that ain't gonna fly, especially as we know this Jotaro uses shit the moment he gets it, he gains time stop and starts using it all the time even in cutscenes, he gains RO, uses it against Dio, and the game ends, aka, he used it when he got it. I surely hope you aren't about to argue Jotaro isn't gonna use his new shiny ability because we don't see him use it a dozen times, ignoring the fact the game ends as soon as he gets it making such a claim utterly unfair. If people don't like that, then don't use EOH Jotaro from the literal last five minutes of the game.

Doesn't matter he still most consistently, opens with a punch or a barrage of hits, not TS nor RO.
Literally in almost every canon fight.
So we can assume he would do the same here, being in character.

And if we're talking about "in character", it's just as likely Jiren doesn't kill the dude with a pl of like 8 and doesn't even recognize him as a threat,

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????
In character, Jiren is 100% willing to one shot someone. It doesn't even need to be death, knocking him out is fine.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't matter he still most consistently, opens with a punch or a barrage of hits, not TS nor RO.

He actually does open with time stop so not sure what you're talking about, he does so a few times and will use it as it's needed, and "he doesn't open with RO" is so hilariously disingenuous it's not even worth humoring, you do know you're trying to argue that because we don't see Jotaro spam with RO he won't lead with it, completely ignoring the game ends five seconds later? Hell, in this vain I could argue that Jotaro would always use RO because he's used it 100% of every fight he's ever been in while having it and used it every chance he canonically got, see the issue? You're being dishonest as ****. If you don't like it, don't use a Jotaro that's only existed for a total of five seconds "but im not OP", I'm talking to all of you here.

Literally in almost every canon fight.

We're talking about a noncanon iteration of the character, you realize that? Canon doesn't matter as much, and that's ignoring Jotaro uses time stop all the time later on.

So we can assume he would do the same here, being in character.

Which would be use his abilities to the fullest against the 8 foot tall jacked as **** ayy lmao?

It doesn't even need to be death, knocking him out is fine.

I never said he wouldn't try and ko, I said he wouldn't try to kill as that's completely against his character.

And knocking him out doesn't stop Star Platinum. Reminder Plat is cognizant and as long as he's already summoned, a mere ko won't actually demanifest him in contrast to some other Stands, we see this most notably when Jotaro knocks his own ass out by stopping his own heart (In which Plat restarts his heart and counters one of DIO's incoming attacks, saving Jotaro from being decapitated).
See the issue?

Plus knocking him out doesn't net him the win either, Jotaro ain't gonna be ko'd for 24h, and once he gets back up, guess what's gonna happen?

 

[Teezar]

Voting jotaro but is matchup was tough though.

 

[Chariot190]

At this point I'd sooner argue there shouldn't even be any matches with Heaven Jotaro, if people don't like assuming a character would use his newfound power because we don't see him use it a bunch because the game ends as soon as he gets it, he shouldn't even be used to begin with, unless he's bloodlusted but that's beside the point.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

He actually does open with time stop so not sure what you're talking about, he does so a few times and will use it as it's needed, and "he doesn't open with RO" is so hilariously disingenuous it's not even worth humoring, you do know you're trying to argue that because we don't see Jotaro spam with RO he won't lead with it, completely ignoring the game ends five seconds later? Hell, in this vain I could argue that Jotaro would always use RO because he's used it 100% of every fight he's ever been in while having it and used it every chance he canonically got, see the issue? You're being dishonest as ****. If you don't like it, don't use a Jotaro that's only existed for a total of five seconds "but im not OP", I'm talking to all of you here.

I never said he didn't. I'm saying its more consistent for him to literally try ******* punching a guy first lmao. And i'm looking at Jotaro's actions as a whole, not him in just one fight. If you read that reply, you'd know i'm not saying he will never use RO, i'm saying as opening he usually does something else.

Also I recommend you calm down, it's not serious, all i'm doing is giving my take on a vs battle lmao. Calling me dishonest, disingenous, and insulting me is not the rhetoric you wanna use if you are trying to persuade me, or engage a conversation with anyone.

We're talking about a noncanon iteration of the character, you realize that? Canon doesn't matter as much, and that's ignoring Jotaro uses time stop all the time later on.

I didn't think I had to say this, but eyes of heaven, and this wiki, treats the jojo manga canon to the game. So yes it does matter.

Which would be use his abilities to the fullest against the 8 foot tall jacked as **** ayy lmao?

After attempting to punch him/barrage him, as he normally opens. Does he even open a fight using reality overwrite ever?

I never said he wouldn't try and ko, I said he wouldn't try to kill as that's completely against his character.

Sba, hes willing to kill.

And knocking him out doesn't stop Star Platinum. Reminder Plat is cognizant and as long as he's already summoned, a mere ko won't actually demanifest him in contrast to some other Stands, we see this most notably when Jotaro knocks his own ass out by stopping his own heart.
See the issue?

I don't think its ever indicated in that scene you are referring to, that he completely passed out. I just think they made his pupils get less detailed in order to indicate how close he was to actually dying.

And if Jiren sees star platinum still trying to fight him, whats to stop him from ******* one shotting star platinum as well lmao? And what indicates star platinum would even be okay? Especially since we know damage reflected within stand users and stands are generally mirrored. And its likely Jiren would hit SP and not Jotaro anyways due to SP usually fighting in front of Jotaro.

knocking the opponent out for at least one hour,

He doesn't need to keep knocking him out for an entire day, he just needs to do it for an hour.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And if Jiren sees star platinum still trying to fight him

You have an enormous problem right there, lol

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

You have an enormous problem right there, lol

oh lmao forgot

 

[Chariot190]

Also I recommend you calm down, it's not serious, all i'm doing is giving my take on a vs battle lmao. Calling me dishonest, disingenous, and insulting me is not the rhetoric you wanna use if you are trying to persuade me, or engage a conversation with anyone.

I mean, pretty sure I'm calm and more or less normal? That doesn't change the fact your argument is extremely disingenuous and ignorant of the context, if your argument is dishonest as ****, I'm gonna call it as such. Also I never insulted you unless you think me saying you being disingenuous is an insult for some reason, it isn't lad. Also not trying to convince you, you have no idea how little I care about this match but after like 8 people ask me to say shit I'm gonna say something so they get off my ass.

I never said he didn't. I'm saying its more consistent for him to literally try ******* punching a guy first lmao.

And unfortunately that isn't always the case, what's actually consistent is for Jotaro to figure out his opponent first and go from there deducing what the best course of action is. Doubly unfortunate that we're talking about a Jotaro who has super god powers, used them at every canonical readily available chance he got, and is standing face to face against a roided as **** alien man,

And i'm looking at Jotaro's actions as a whole, not him in just one fight. If you read that reply, you'd know i'm not saying he will never use RO, i'm saying as opening he usually does something else.

You very clearly aren't given you're simplifying Jotaro down to "lol punch", he's anything but "lol punch" which is funny given that's basically all he had to work with for most of his story, but still managed to use his strength and capabilities in unique and obtuse ways when the situation required it.
And there you go, that's the issue right there "as an opening move", news flash, we're using a Jotaro who's only ever been in one fight and used RO readily when he could, you can't exactly conflate shit elsewhere with a Jotaro who just so happens to have an instant win button and is genre savvy as ****, Jotaro isn't exactly one to **** around, we know this, you know this, if he had a instant win button he can do while literally doing his usual punch shit, you don't think he would? It's baffling to think otherwise.

I didn't think I had to say this, but eyes of heaven, and this wiki, treats the jojo manga canon to the game. So yes it does matter.

No shit, but Jotaro's actions in the game take precedence over the manga, the manga is canon to EOH, but as you'd think, EOH is also canon to EOH and as such, how Jotaro acts in the game is kinda what we go on first and foremost above anything else, Jotaro doing something in Part 4 for example has less priority over Jotaro doing something in EOH itself.

After attempting to punch him/barrage him, as he normally opens. Does he even open a fight using reality overwrite ever?

You clearly didn't get the memo, the game ends as soon as he gets RO, he only ever engages in one fight with it ever, against DIO, and needless to say, he used RO in said fight.

Sba, hes willing to kill.

Willing to kill, but only when forced to. Not his lead, not his immediate reaction. SBA and in character still has the characters act normally and go about there normal game plan, the "willing to kill" just means that if nothing else works they'd kill, for example take Batman, he would NEVER kill, but in a match, after he's gone through everything he has and none of it worked, he'd be willing to kill if it would net him the win, but only after the fact, never to lead with. Unless said character would be going for the kill normally or after little issue, in which case they'd try to kill like they normally do. Jiren unfortunately, isn't one to open up trying to kill someone an infinity times below him, but below 99% of his verse.

I don't think its ever indicated in that scene you are referring to, that he completely passed out. I just think they made his pupils get less detailed in order to indicate how close he was to actually dying.

He literally goes on about how he's about to lose conscious, then his pupils fade and then Plat out of nowhere acts on his behalf. It's pretty blatant my dude. And if you want to get overly anal about it, other examples do indeed exist. (I mean, just take a look at Weather for some examples of a sentient Stand taking action while the user is on his ass).

And if Jiren sees star platinum still trying to fight him, whats to stop him from ******* one shotting star platinum as well lmao?

The fact he can't see Star Platinum trying to fight him lmao.

And what indicates star platinum would even be okay? Especially since we know damage reflected within stand users and stands are generally mirrored. And its likely Jiren would hit SP and not Jotaro anyways due to SP usually fighting in front of Jotaro.

The fact he can't see Plat, the fact Jiren isn't gonna hit Jotaro so hard to actually do any meaningful damage, the fact Plat can fight and move while sustaining mortal injuries and so on? All basic stuff lad.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually though, it's pretty obvious he lost conscious, we even get the "stand user is dying" mist begin to rise up from his body.

 

[StekFence]

Doesn't matter he still most consistently, opens with a punch or a barrage of hits, not TS nor RO.
Literally in almost every canon fight.
So we can assume he would do the same here, being in character.

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????
In character, Jiren is 100% willing to one shot someone. It doesn't even need to be death, knocking him out is fine.

I’d like to remind you that Star platinum has time to use every option here, due to perceiving Jiren as a literal statue, albeit a well carved one. him stopping time wouldn’t be needed, as the opponent isn’t moving from his perspective in the first place

 

[StekFence]

He’d punch the non moving enemy, doesn’t even ruffle jirens clothes, and now his only other option is hax. He has nothing else in his kit.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I mean, pretty sure I'm calm and more or less normal? That doesn't change the fact your argument is extremely disingenuous and ignorant of the context, if your argument is dishonest as ****, I'm gonna call it as such. Also I never insulted you unless you think me saying you being disingenuous is an insult for some reason, it isn't lad. Also not trying to convince you, you have no idea how little I care about this match but after like 8 people ask me to say shit I'm gonna say something so they get off my ass.

What part of my argument was dishonest or disingenuous? What did i lie about?
Also if you do not care about this thread, nor persuading me, and you have already expressed your thoughts on this match, nothing stops you from leaving. If you don't, obviously people are gonna engage you, and take what you are doing for what is is, discussing topic/trying to justify your stance.

And unfortunately that isn't always the case, what's actually consistent is for Jotaro to figure out his opponent first and go from there deducing what the best course of action is. Doubly unfortunate that we're talking about a Jotaro who has super god powers, used them at every canonical readily available chance he got, and is standing face to face against a roided as **** alien man,

Alright then show me Jotaro consistently, before attempting to fight someone? Cause there are many times he doesn't do that... vs kira, vs josuke, vs dio, all times he straight opens with a punch. Only times I can remember of him leading with something else like TS was because of a significant range difference.

No shit, but Jotaro's actions in the game take precedence over the manga, the manga is canon to EOH, but as you'd think, EOH is also canon to EOH and as such, how Jotaro acts in the game is kinda what we go on first and foremost above anything else, Jotaro doing something in Part 4 for example has less priority over Jotaro doing something in EOH itself.

I don't think it does, since the manga events are obviously canon to it, we can use both it and the game to determine how he consistently opens a fight. Besides in the game he still opens with an attempt to hit his opponent.

You clearly didn't get the memo, the game ends as soon as he gets RO, he only ever engages in one fight with it ever, against DIO, and needless to say, he used RO in said fight.

In other words no, he doesn't, or you just don't know. (I'm not arguing he won't use it at all, i'm saying he doesn't open a fight like that).

Willing to kill, but only when forced to. Not his lead, not his immediate reaction. SBA and in character still has the characters act normally and go about there normal game plan, the "willing to kill" just means that if nothing else works they'd kill, for example take Batman, he would NEVER kill, but in a match, after he's gone through everything he has and none of it worked, he'd be willing to kill if it would net him the win, but only after the fact, never to lead with.

Point to me to the part of sba that says "only forced to". If characters are willing to kill to begin with, it makes no sense they would still opt for NOT doing it, or actively restraining themselves from not doing it. And given the overwhelming AP difference, that would happen very easily.

He literally goes on about how he's about to lose conscious, then his pupils fade and then Plat out of nowhere acts on his behalf. It's pretty blatant my dude. And if you want to get overly anal about it, other examples do indeed exist.

That scan you literally sent is Jotaro saying "if i lose consciousness, im gonna ******* die". His eyes blanking is representative of him being close to dying, but doesn't indicate he was knocked out. Steam rises from his body, also indicating that he is about to die. What is clearly happening is them illustrating how CLOSE jotaro was to dying/passing out, never is it stated, nor confirmed he actually is, thats just an unwarranted assumption.

The fact he can't see Star Platinum trying to fight him lmao.

Analytical prediction of Star plat tries to revive him, and jiren can sense life energy, so he'd be able to tell if SP tries something very easily.

the fact Jiren isn't gonna hit Jotaro so hard to actually do any meaningful damage, the fact Plat can fight and move while sustaining mortal injuries and so on? All basic stuff lad.

And then what would plat do, assuming ? Can't go outside of his like 2 meter range. Jiren has analytical prediction and could predict a revival of jotaro and act accordingly.

I’d like to remind you that Star platinum has time to use every option here, due to perceiving Jiren as a literal statue, albeit a well carved one. him stopping time wouldn’t be needed, as the opponent isn’t moving from his perspective in the first place

Its equal speed my guy.

He’d punch the non moving enemy, doesn’t even ruffle jirens clothes, and now his only other option is hax. He has nothing else in his kit.

Equal speed... And if you agree Jotaro opens punching, he just gets knocked out if not killed by the first punch.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

"A well carved one"

 

[BlastX]

Speed Equal doesn't apply straightforwardly to Stands, So SPOH is still way faster than Jiren

"A well carved one"

When someone is built like that you gotta give the respect he deserves.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Speed Equal doesn't apply straightforwardly to Stands, So SPOH is still way faster than Jiren

When someone is built like that you gotta give the respect he deserves.

Is there a thread where that conclusion was made?

Because I was under the assumption that every aspect of speed would be equalized, including the speed of an entity that is an extension of the character.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is there a thread where that conclusion was made?

Because I was under the assumption that every aspect of speed would be equalized, including the speed of an entity that is an extension of the character.

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

So yes, Jiren becomes only Superhuman in speed.

°

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Y'all really lucky Im not pulling out the bullshittery of dragonball here... being their power goes into their speed...

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

plus... I don't want the mental pain of trying to explain why the hell toriyama thought that was a good idea

 

[StrymULTRA]

Y'all really lucky Im not pulling out the bullshittery of dragonball here... being their power goes into their speed...

I mean, SPOH still is infinite in Speed.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

I mean, SPOH still is infinite in Speed.

Jiren scales to Infinity, which according to dragonball bullshit logic, would mean infinite speed (I don't count it, though, due to lack of feats)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Jiren scales to Infinity, which according to dragonball bullshit logic, would mean infinite speed (I don't count it, though, due to lack of feats)

Don't you mean immeasurable

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Infinite Void Feat...

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

UI Goku shook the entire Null realm, which was stated as infinite, to output that much Ki, would require effectively infinite Ki, which should translate into likewise speed

 

[Chariot190]

What part of my argument was dishonest or disingenuous? What did i lie about?

Uh, the part I made explicitly and blatantly clear? Do I really need to spoon-feed you this? The whole "he wont use RO as a lead" thing, or acting because he hasn't used RO consistently in multiple fights or as multiple leads. It's disingenuous as **** because, lo and behold, trying to apply such logic to a dude who's only had said ability for a few minutes and then the game ends and he loses said power is so ******* unbelievably dishonest and roundabout it shouldn't even be mentioned, if it's such a issue, don't use EOH Jotaro, as simple as that. Especially when, at least in said few minutes he had it, he used it actively.

Also if you do not care about this thread, nor persuading me, and you have already expressed your thoughts on this match, nothing stops you from leaving.

I mean if you reply, I'm gonna reply back, doesn't change any of what I said.

If you don't, obviously people are gonna engage you, and take what you are doing for what is is, discussing topic/trying to justify your stance.

Yes, no shit lad, doesn't change anything, this is a utterly moot point.

Alright then show me Jotaro consistently, before attempting to fight someone?

Cause there are many times he doesn't do that... vs kira, vs josuke, vs dio, all times he straight opens with a punch. Only times I can remember of him leading with something else like TS was because of a significant range difference.

Uses time stop against Kira the second time around, spams time stop against Ratt, uses time stop immediately against Pucci, thrice fyi, every single time he encountered Pucci a time stop was involved. Spams the shit out of it against MIH. And that's just a few.
Let's take a look at times where he doesn't lead with time stop.

Vs. Josuke, he uses time stop as soon as Josuke fights back. Against Kira he crippled his ass, no need to. Against SHA, he uses it several times, in fact the the literal panel after he pummels it he uses time stop against it.

Jotaro uses time stop when it's needed or if he thinks it's required, he won't use time stop against some literal who weak ass Stand or something he can slap once and knock the **** out, but the moment he figures he needs it or it'd be of benefit, he'd use it, does so every time, some times he leads with it like against Pucci because it's helpful, and other times like against KQ where he slapped, he doesn't need it. He also uses it to dodge, get in close, and so on consistently;

And I'm going to ignore you said ******* DIO of all characters, as if Jotaro had a choice in that matter on to use time stop (and he uses time stop the exact moment he could against Dio anyway).

Jotaro uses time stop lad, does so consistently, and will even lead with it if he thinks the situation calls for it, this is all pretty basic stuff.

I don't think it does, since the manga events are obviously canon to it, we can use both it and the game to determine how he consistently opens a fight. Besides in the game he still opens with an attempt to hit his opponent.

It literally does, are you seriously trying to say we should take the actions of a Jotaro ten years in the future who's not truly even the same Jotaro over

In other words no, he doesn't, or you just don't know. (I'm not arguing he won't use it at all, i'm saying he doesn't open a fight like that).

In other words you've been arguing Jotaro doesn't lead with RO, that's what you've been arguing. Yet, in the ONLY FIGHT he's ever had RO, he used it every chance he got, and you're expecting people to go "oh well shit guess he wont lead with it", when that's basically all he did? Of course not, we're using a Jotaro that only existed for a total of five minutes, within that time frame, he uses his newfound RO ability whenever needed, and does so with intent.
If you don't like using a Jotaro who's only existed for a few minutes under the pretense he's gonna use the shit he used while existing for said five minutes, then simply do not use him.

the actions and biases of the Jotaro we're using in this very match? Of course the game actions takes precedence, I shouldn't even have to explain as much, we're using a 17-18 year old hypothetical Jotaro, what he does as he is matters more then what his future self did.
And I'm going to ignore the fact you just used Jotaro not stopping time against God Dio as actual justification. Doesn;t take a genius to figure out that stopping time against someone who's time stop eclipses yours while fighting in a team would be super stupid, Jotaro stops time there, and guess what happens? Dio's time stop outlasts his and he gets ******.

Point to me to the part of sba that says "only forced to". If characters are willing to kill to begin with, it makes no sense they would still opt for NOT doing it, or actively restraining themselves from not doing it. And given the overwhelming AP difference, that would happen very easily.

Let me reiterate, force to as in their usual shit doesn't work. And no, you know how many matches exist were the characters are assumed to go for incap first because they don't actively kill? Literally thousands upon thousands. It's why bloodlusted exists dude, **** character morality and game plans, they just go for the kill. But as OP states in character, Jiren and Jotaro or literally any other character will act as they usually act, this is how matches work, Jiren will go for the kill if incap doesn't work, but he aint gonna kill first, he's gonna try and ko, as we see him do many times before and as part of his job and sense of justice.
Jiren can actively restrain himself by degrees of infinity, he's gonna try and ko Jotaro first and foremost, he's not a killer inherently, if that doesn't work, then he'll try to kill, but not any sooner than that.

Hell in that same vain if you're really ******* arguing Jiren is suddenly a killer and will go overboard because "willing to kill", I see no reason to assume Jotaro wouldn't lead with his instant kill ability because he too is willing to kill and when Jotaro's trying to kill he doesn't **** around and we see that RO Jotaro, while wanting to kill a foe, will, of course, use RO. Rendering this whole stupid argument of semantic bullshit moot, but clearly that isn't how it works, because Jotaro is in character, he too won't straight up go for ballistic murder bullshit against anyone while in character, Jotaro pulls his punches to avoid killing, his mind set might be skewed a tad because he's fight a roided alien here, but he's still not in a murderous mindset either.

That scan you literally sent is Jotaro saying "if i lose consciousness, im gonna ******* die".

Yes, and then he loses consciousness

His eyes blanking is representative of him being close to dying, but doesn't indicate he was knocked out.

It indicates both actually my dude.

Steam rises from his body, also indicating that he is about to die.

Indeed it does, why are you repeating the very things I already said?

What is clearly happening is them illustrating how CLOSE jotaro was to dying/passing out, never is it stated, nor confirmed he actually is, thats just an unwarranted assumption.

He literally stops his heart, goes on about how it hurts like a bitch and if he loses consciousness he's probably gonna die, his eyes blank out (which is something used constantly by Araki to, you guessed it, show someone getting ko'd, another example would be King Crimson punching Gio in the head of eyes whiting out).
The death mist begins to show up indicating Jotaro is in the process of dying.

Despite blatant indication of Jotaro dying, having lost conscious and so on, Plat spontaneously appears, pumps Jotaro's own heart, well, that's that. It's anything but warranted, it's literally just basic reading comprehension and deduction.

But again, if you wanna get anal about it and try to argue super obvious shit, there's other examples of sentient Stands acting while the user is ko'd, as said, Weather exists.

Analytical prediction of Star plat tries to revive him, and jiren can sense life energy, so he'd be able to tell if SP tries something very easily.

First off, not what Jiren's analytical prediction does, it ain't precog, he has to actually ANALYZE something to predict the end result and revive him? He doesn't need to revive him, it ain't like he's dead just ko'd. Jiren can sense life energy, but Stand's, at least nowadays (was a tad different early on but that's since long been changed), are the manifestations of the soul, not life energy, that's more a Hamon thing. And at the same time, Plat's actual PL would be so low comparatively I wouldn't be surprised if it even made a blip on his radar.

And then what would plat do, assuming ? Can't go outside of his like 2 meter range. Jiren has analytical prediction and could predict a revival of jotaro and act accordingly.

My dude, that ain't what his analytical prediction does, it ain't capable of things like that.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Jiren wouldn't see a Revival incoming, maybe the second time it happens, but not the first time

 

[StekFence]

What part of my argument was dishonest or disingenuous? What did i lie about?
Also if you do not care about this thread, nor persuading me, and you have already expressed your thoughts on this match, nothing stops you from leaving. If you don't, obviously people are gonna engage you, and take what you are doing for what is is, discussing topic/trying to justify your stance.

Alright then show me Jotaro consistently, before attempting to fight someone? Cause there are many times he doesn't do that... vs kira, vs josuke, vs dio, all times he straight opens with a punch. Only times I can remember of him leading with something else like TS was because of a significant range difference.

I don't think it does, since the manga events are obviously canon to it, we can use both it and the game to determine how he consistently opens a fight. Besides in the game he still opens with an attempt to hit his opponent.

In other words no, he doesn't, or you just don't know. (I'm not arguing he won't use it at all, i'm saying he doesn't open a fight like that).

Point to me to the part of sba that says "only forced to". If characters are willing to kill to begin with, it makes no sense they would still opt for NOT doing it, or actively restraining themselves from not doing it. And given the overwhelming AP difference, that would happen very easily.

That scan you literally sent is Jotaro saying "if i lose consciousness, im gonna ******* die". His eyes blanking is representative of him being close to dying, but doesn't indicate he was knocked out. Steam rises from his body, also indicating that he is about to die. What is clearly happening is them illustrating how CLOSE jotaro was to dying/passing out, never is it stated, nor confirmed he actually is, thats just an unwarranted assumption.

Analytical prediction of Star plat tries to revive him, and jiren can sense life energy, so he'd be able to tell if SP tries something very easily.

And then what would plat do, assuming ? Can't go outside of his like 2 meter range. Jiren has analytical prediction and could predict a revival of jotaro and act accordingly.

Its equal speed my guy.

Equal speed... And if you agree Jotaro opens punching, he just gets knocked out if not killed by the first punch.

Pls read my previous posts regarding star plats speed. I know the speed is equal.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Uh, the part I made explicitly and blatantly clear? Do I really need to spoon-feed you this? The whole "he wont use RO as a lead" thing, or acting because he hasn't used RO consistently in multiple fights or as multiple leads. It's disingenuous as **** because, lo and behold, trying to apply such logic to a dude who's only had said ability for a few minutes and then the game ends and he loses said power is so ******* unbelievably dishonest and roundabout it shouldn't even be mentioned, if it's such a issue, don't use EOH Jotaro, as simple as that. Especially when, at least in said few minutes he had it, he used it actively.

Thats not disingenuous, thats literally true. And even in that fight, he still never opened with that. If you think thats unfair, thats fine. I am, once again looking at his character as a WHOLE.

Uses time stop against Kira the second time around, spams time stop against Ratt, uses time stop immediately against Pucci, thrice fyi, every single time he encountered Pucci a time stop was involved. Spams the shit out of it against MIH. And that's just a few.
Let's take a look at times where he doesn't lead with time stop.

Literally every instance you listed was when he was a SIGNIFICANT distance away. That was incredibly disingenuous of you.

Jotaro uses time stop when it's needed or if he thinks it's required, he won't use time stop against some literal who weak ass Stand or something he can slap once and knock the **** out, but the moment he figures he needs it or it'd be of benefit, he'd use it, does so every time, some times he leads with it like against Pucci because it's helpful, and other times like against KQ where he slapped, he doesn't need it. He also uses it to dodge, get in close, and so on consistently;

So he would first need to think TS is needed before using it, thats fine.

It literally does, are you seriously trying to say we should take the actions of a Jotaro ten years in the future who's not truly even the same Jotaro over

Unless it's heavily implied Jotaro is no longer willing to fight that way.

Hell in that same vain if you're really ******* arguing Jiren is suddenly a killer and will go overboard because "willing to kill", I see no reason to assume Jotaro wouldn't lead with his instant kill ability because he too is willing to kill and when Jotaro's trying to kill he doesn't **** around and we see that RO Jotaro, while wanting to kill a foe, will, of course, use RO. Rendering this whole stupid argument of semantic bullshit moot, but clearly that isn't how it works, because Jotaro is in character, he too won't straight up go for ballistic murder bullshit against anyone while in character, Jotaro pulls his punches to avoid killing, his mind set might be skewed a tad because he's fight a roided alien here, but he's still not in a murderous mindset either.

Jotaro only ever uses his RO to power null and to heal, and after doing so still opts to beat his opponent to death. And either way he wouldn't get close enough to Jiren to use it anyways.

It indicates both actually my dude.

In this context, no, nothing indicates your alternative. Most of the reasoning you gave was non-sequitur.

He literally stops his heart, goes on about how it hurts like a bitch and if he loses consciousness he's probably gonna die, his eyes blank out (which is something used constantly by Araki to, you guessed it, show someone getting ko'd, another example would be King Crimson punching Gio in the head of eyes whiting out).
The death mist begins to show up indicating Jotaro is in the process of dying.

I literally addressed this already.

Despite blatant indication of Jotaro dying, having lost conscious and so on, Plat spontaneously appears, pumps Jotaro's own heart, well, that's that. It's anything but warranted, it's literally just basic reading comprehension and deduction.

ALMOST dying. Theres a reason jotaro isn't given limited resurrection for that.
And if he was actually dead, he would've stayed gone lmao. Literally stated by Jotaro himself, no matter your stand, if you die, you can't come back. (Only ever kinda contradicted by Giorno, and even then they made it blatantly clear he wasn't TRULY back).

But again, if you wanna get anal about it and try to argue super obvious shit, there's other examples of sentient Stands acting while the user is ko'd, as said, Weather exists.

why would we compare what other stands do to jotaro's stand lmao when we know every stand varies in functionality

First off, not what Jiren's analytical prediction does, it ain't precog, he has to actually ANALYZE something to predict the end result and revive him? He doesn't need to revive him, it ain't like he's dead just ko'd. Jiren can sense life energy, but Stand's, at least nowadays (was a tad different early on but that's since long been changed), are the manifestations of the soul, not life energy, that's more a Hamon thing. And at the same time, Plat's actual PL would be so low comparatively I wouldn't be surprised if it even made a blip on his radar.

Analytical prediction IS precog lmao.
Yeah so if he sees Jotaro's body, and predicts its about to like heal, or sees him healed and about to get up, he would just act accordingly. Throw another ki blast, air punch, use danmaku, whatever needed.

Anyways my vote isn't changing.

 

[Chariot190]

Thats not disingenuous, thats literally true. And even in that fight, he still never opened with that. If you think thats unfair, thats fine. I am, once again looking at his character as a WHOLE.

Yes, literally disingenuous, also he actually did open up with that, used it immediately to heal his wounds, used it immediately the moment he made contact with DIO (in a cutscene). Unless you wanna count gameplay where he doesnt get any of the new powers at all because gameplay.
If he's used it every chance he got in cinematics, Dio alludes to him using it, and the very first chance we see him attack a dude in a cutscene and he uses it, I'd wager he, ya know, uses it pretty damn constantly.

Literally every instance you listed was when he was a SIGNIFICANT distance away. That was incredibly disingenuous of you.

Uh, Pucci was right on his ass, twice. MIH was right on his ass, thrice. Kira was a bit of distance away sure so I'll give you that one (But then again, that';s you moving the goal post, when was distance ever a factor, you just said he never leads with it, he does indeed lead with it and use it right away a handful of times, you're adding on extra requirements now) but he did everything within the time stop. Ratt was less about distance and more about the projectiles being fired. What the **** are you talking about, do you know what "every" means? Because 1 of like 5 ain't every. (Also funnily enough, the range in the op is well within range for Jotaro to lead with it).

So he would first need to think TS is needed before using it, thats fine.

Uh yeah? That doesn't mean it can't be a lead, he doesn't start tossing punches and THEN decides to Time Stop, he has basic deductive skills, is the enemy far away? Ok use time stop. Is the enemy dangerous? Ok use time stop. The enemy is completely unknown and it's risky. Use time stop. Etc.
Sometimes time stop comes afterwards when he learns he needs to use it due to info gathered in the fight itself, other times he knows or deduces he should use time stop right away and will use it immediately. This is how Jotaro works lad.

Unless it's heavily implied Jotaro is no longer willing to fight that way.

Uh, yes actually, Part 4 and so on Jotaro are indeed stated to fight different than Part 3 Jotaro due to their mental age and maturity, Part 4 Jotaro in particular almost never acts first, he waits, analyzes, and deduces what's needed from there. Part 3 Jotaro isn't dumb either, but they do canonically have a bit different mindset when it comes to fights, Part 4 Jotaro is way mellowed the **** out.

Jotaro only ever uses his RO to power null and to heal, and after doing so still opts to beat his opponent to death. And either way he wouldn't get close enough to Jiren to use it anyways.

"Jotaro only ever uses RO to do these two things in the only two instances were he needed to do it in a cutscene".
Also damn, power null? Jiren sure doesn't resist that. (Ignoring the fate hax but whatever).

I mean, I'd argue Jotaro's time stop actually would work, not because Jiren doesn't resist, or that Jotaro's is good, but because Jotaro's time stop potency = Time Cage (Which while Jiren resisted, he kinda struggled with). But I ain't gonna die on that hill.

In this context, no, nothing indicates your alternative. Most of the reasoning you gave was non-sequitur.

You're joking "jotaro's eye's go blank after having his heart stopped".
Do you know what a non-sequitur is? Because I don't think you know what that word means, when Jotaro talks about losing conscious and if he does he's probably ******, then his eyes proceed to blank out, something Araki has used multiple times to indicate loss of conscious, and I conclude that "hey, he lost conscious there", that's the most basic straightforward shit one could conclude.

Stop with your fallacious bullshit, strawmanning is ratty as all hell.

I literally addressed this already.

Except not really and I vehemently disagree and so does most people given you're the first person I've ever seen conclude "yeah dude he was conscious the whole time".

ALMOST dying. Theres a reason jotaro isn't given limited resurrection for that.

Nobody said that, nobody argued that, and nobody even implied that, and even if he did die we wouldn't give it to him because being brought back shortly after medical death like a heart stop is something that's perfectly realistic, literally experienced it myself when I was younger.
And he straight up brought Joseph back from the dead and he still doesn't have it as just another example of why he wouldn't and why you arguing this is kinda dumb.

And if he was actually dead, he would've stayed gone lmao.

Yeah just like Joseph am I right?

Literally stated by Jotaro himself, no matter your stand, if you die, you can't come back. (Only ever kinda contradicted by Giorno, and even then they made it blatantly clear he wasn't TRULY back).

Yeah just like Joseph right? Or several other characters now that I think about, like Okayasu.
Why are you so hung up on the death thing? Nobody is arguing Jotaro died, just that he lost conscious, which he blatantly did, like goddamn wouldn't put it past Araki to have made mention of it somewhere, but that's beside the point, you do know that if the ******'s eyes go blank, and Araki uses the to denote loss of conscious, we can safely assume that he lost conscious right? This isn't rocket science.

why would we compare what other stands do to jotaro's stand lmao when we know every stand varies in functionality

Because you apparently wanna argue blatant shit so I brought up another example of a Stand, just like Star Platinum, that could act while the user wasn't cognizant, because that's a thing that sentient Stands can do, it's not a special ability for them, it's just a thing sentient Stands can do, as long as they've been summoned.

Analytical prediction IS precog lmao.

Literally isn't precog. They link to the same page, but they're two different abilities (it's why we list it as analytical prediction and not, ya know, precog). Jiren can analyze a foe's fighting style and shit, and predict things like where a punch is coming from, but what you're implying is actual bullshit, not how he ability works.

Yeah so if he sees Jotaro's body, and predicts its about to like heal, or sees him healed and about to get up, he would just act accordingly. Throw another ki blast, air punch, use danmaku, whatever needed.

Which is uh, something he isn't gonna be able to predict, predicting someone throwing a punch or doing a flip isn't the same as predicting a magical invisible force is gonna use reality warping to magically heal the dude that just got knocked on his ass.

Anyways my vote isn't changing.

Didn't ask mate.

 

[Baken384]

jotaro uses fate manip to fate himself to win gg

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Yes, literally disingenuous, also he actually did open up with that, used it immediately to heal his wounds, used it immediately the moment he made contact with DIO (in a cutscene). Unless you wanna count gameplay where he doesnt get any of the new powers at all because gameplay.
If he's used it every chance he got in cinematics, Dio alludes to him using it, and the very first chance we see him attack a dude in a cutscene and he uses it, I'd wager he, ya know, uses it pretty damn constantly.

Thats not opening thats halfway through the fight LMAO

Uh, Pucci was right on his ass, twice. MIH was right on his ass, thrice. Kira was a bit of distance away sure so I'll give you that one (But then again, that';s you moving the goal post, when was distance ever a factor, you just said he never leads with it, he does indeed lead with it and use it right away a handful of times, you're adding on extra requirements now) but he did everything within the time stop. Ratt was less about distance and more about the projectiles being fired. What the **** are you talking about, do you know what "every" means? Because 1 of like 5 ain't every. (Also funnily enough, the range in the op is well within range for Jotaro to lead with it).

When he activated it initially Pucci was a distance away. Rat was EXTEREMELY far away, Kira was definitely far as well.
10M away? Cool so Jiren uses his AOE air punch, or uses Danmaku, which one shots. He uses TS to dodge? Cool, gets one shot with the next attack, since time stop has a "recharge time". So regardless that still doesn't help Jotaro's case.

Uh yeah? That doesn't mean it can't be a lead, he doesn't start tossing punches and THEN decides to Time Stop, he has basic deductive skills, is the enemy far away? Ok use time stop. Is the enemy dangerous? Ok use time stop. The enemy is completely unknown and it's risky. Use time stop. Etc.
Sometimes time stop comes afterwards when he learns he needs to use it due to info gathered in the fight itself, other times he knows or deduces he should use time stop right away and will use it immediately. This is how Jotaro works lad.

K so he opens by studying his opponent rather than the actual timestop, while jiren can just open with AOE attacks that one shot.

Do you know what a non-sequitur is? Because I don't think you know what that word means, when Jotaro talks about losing conscious and if he does he's probably ******, then his eyes proceed to blank out, something Araki has used multiple times to indicate loss of conscious, and I conclude that "hey, he lost conscious there", that's the most basic straightforward shit one could conclude.

He uses it to indicate someone is about to lose consciousness. And if we know that if he loses consciousness he dies, and in jojos death is more or less unfixable, and it's not stated he loses consciousness but does come back despite all of that, then I would think hes just on the brink of dying, not actually unconscious. But hey, since you are probably gonna repeat what you said already, I won't push that point any further.

Stop with your fallacious bullshit, strawmanning is ratty as all hell.

I never strawmanned what you said, nor was I being fallacious. In fact im literally quoting everything you say lmao.

And he straight up brought Joseph back from the dead and he still doesn't have it as just another example of why he wouldn't and why you arguing this is kinda dumb.

Because Joseph wasn't dead, it was just a matter of returning his blood to him, and making his blood circulate through his body to him.

Nobody is arguing Jotaro died, just that he lost conscious, which he blatantly did, like goddamn wouldn't put it past Araki to have made mention of it somewhere, but that's beside the point, you do know that if the ******'s eyes go blank, and Araki uses the to denote loss of conscious, we can safely assume that he lost conscious right

Yeah I have a different interpretation of that, and already addressed it. You can repeat yourself, thats perfectly fine, but unless my interpretation that he was just ABOUT to lose consciousness/die is contradicted, it would be upheld.

Because you apparently wanna argue blatant shit so I brought up another example of a Stand, just like Star Platinum, that could act while the user wasn't cognizant, because that's a thing that sentient Stands can do, it's not a special ability for them, it's just a thing sentient Stands can do, as long as they've been summoned.

Again stands vary in functionality, you don't use how another stand works and apply it to all stands. Thats proof by example.

Literally isn't precog. They link to the same page, but they're two different abilities (it's why we list it as analytical prediction and not, ya know, precog).

They aren't, they just use two names for it.

Jiren can analyze a foe's fighting style and shit, and predict things like where a punch is coming from, but what you're implying is actual bullshit, not how he ability works.

So it's bullshit for me to argue Jiren can analyze and predict what Jotaro is about to do? Interesting. Nice appeal to stone.

Which is uh, something he isn't gonna be able to predict, predicting someone throwing a punch or doing a flip isn't the same as predicting a magical invisible force is gonna use reality warping to magically heal the dude that just got knocked on his ass.

Does he have resistance to it? Nope. So that argument doesn't work.

jotaro uses fate manip to fate himself to win gg

OOC.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Why are we even factoring time stop? Jiren breaks past time stops with ease

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Either way, now I'm going for Incon, until we can or can't prove that Jotaro will immediately start with Reality hax decisively

 

[StekFence]

He doesnt need to. Infinite speed means he will try hax after his punches dont work, abd this occurs before jiren thinks

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Fine, screw this

In dragonball, your power level translates directly into your speed, the stronger someone is, the faster they are at a baseline, as well as their other overall strengths

Jiren scales to MUI Goku, who shook an infinite Void (The Null Realm) with his Ki, which factors to power, BAM, Infinite Ki, infinite ki translates to practically an infinite powerlevel

Assuming an infinite speed from this as a result, due to an infinite power level (which we still need feats for, but Toriyama never really scales his feats properly, and just does whatever), Jiren, being dropped down to equal speed, would effectively be dividing by infinity, resulting, in the stand also being equal, due to already being infinite as well

Sadly, due to dragonball never giving us proper feats, this argument is a bit lacking, but not as bullshit as you trying to unequalize speed through such dumb logic

 

[Baken384]

LMAO no. There's no such thing as infinite speed for dragon ball dudes make a crt for that.

 

[sanicspood]

World of void isn’t infinite

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

LMAO no. There's no such thing as infinite speed for dragon ball dudes make a crt for that.

I really don't want an infinite speed dragonball

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Why are we even factoring time stop? Jiren breaks past time stops with ease

Actually you are right, time stop doesn't even work lmao. So yeah Jiren just one shots or Danmaku's before SP gets within range.

 

[StekFence]

Actually you are right, time stop doesn't even work lmao. So yeah Jiren just one shots or Danmaku's before SP gets within range.

inf speed says hi