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"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

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So then. . .why is this not just Sans breaking the rules of Undertale's system like I already said before? If even Mettaton's HP-halving attack triggers the i-frames, but Sans' doesn't, then that's basically what I already stated.
Because you’re needlessly complicating that? We can classify it as INV Negation. Sans is the only monster to dodge Frisk’s attacks, but we do no give him 4th Wall break for that, we give him high reaction speed (and eventually IA). Sans is the only monster to ignore Frisk’s durability, but we do not give him 4th Wall Break due to that, we give him Durability Negation. Same thing here.
 
You know, giving sans Invulnerability Negation would definitely remove his fast dura neg, and make the KARMA poison the only dura neg aspect of it.
Would be a shame if so.
No? The verse blatantly shows that ignoring durability does not equate of negating invulnerability. I used MTT for a reason.
 
Yes. He wouldn't have durability negation if we don't count the per-frame damage he does, he'd just have the basic UT monster one.
What argument is even this? He has durability negation for constantly dealing Frisk 1 damage despite them having far higher DEF (99 DEF with Heart-locket), INV stuff has nothing to do with its justification.
 
What argument is even this? He has durability negation for constantly dealing Frisk 1 damage despite them having far higher DEF (99 DEF with Heart-locket), INV stuff has nothing to do with its justification.
Every monster can do that? That's the entire basis behind their "Limited Durability Negation"? That they always deal at least 1 damage.
 
If it is preventing the activation of the invulnerability it wouldn't be invulnerability negation it would be power null since frisk isn't even becoming invulnerable.
 
Every monster can do that? That's the entire basis behind their "Limited Durability Negation"? That they always deal at least 1 damage.
No? They have it because against the guy with the same tier, they would need attack their SOUL and ignore conventional durability. It was established long time ago that monsters’ soul manipulation is bound to the opponent’s physicals, as physical armor increases DEF of the SOUL.
 
If it is preventing the activation of the invulnerability it wouldn't be invulnerability negation it would be power null since frisk isn't even becoming invulnerable.
It nullifies only Invulnerability. Negation always links to Powernull. Hence why Invulnerability Negation. Lol.
 
Actually yeah, that's a good point. What invulnerability is being negated if it isn't being activated in the first place?

Not to mention, you are capable of having invulnerability in the Sans fight via the Cloudy Goggles and Torn Notebook, as noted before. If Sans were negating invulnerability, he would still be able to damage Frisk regardless of whether or not they have those items equipped. And yet, he doesn't.
 
Actually yeah, that's a good point. What invulnerability is being negated if it isn't being activated in the first place?
It nullifies only Invulnerability. Negation always links to Powernull. Hence why Invulnerability Negation. Lol.

Not to mention, you are capable of having invulnerability in the Sans fight via the Cloudy Goggles and Torn Notebook, as noted before. If Sans were negating invulnerability, he would still be able to damage Frisk regardless of whether or not they have those items equipped. And yet, he doesn't.

 
Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly disprove it being sans just being able to powernull Invulnerability.
 
Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly prove it.
We see that Frisk’s INV is not working in the fight either, lol.

Why do I have a feeling that you two disagree with blatant INV Negation just for the sake of doing so
 
I seen pages link invulnerability negation with durability negation which isn't power null in most cases so I was unsure what was meant. I also am not sure if INV actually meet all the standards for invulnerability.
Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly disprove it being sans just being able to powernull Invulnerability.
Both explicitly work differently in the fight
 
Yes, thank you for proving my point Orange, I'm glad we agree that Sans is incapable of truly negating Invulnerability if it does not bypass the INV given by the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook.

And again, he's not negating Invulnerability if it is not actually active.
 
It does. It’s straight up called so and has its properties
Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify."
 
Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.
Frisk gets Invulnurability for their SOUL when they get hit: the attacks that have just attacked them will make no damage before this temporal INV is gone. Unless you want to say that they have temporary Statistics Amplification (when it is straight up called Invulnerability LMAO)
 
Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify."
Also from in-game info:

Glasses marred with wear. Increases INV by 9.
(After you get hurt by an attack, you stay invulnerable for longer.)
 
Frisk gets Invulnurability for their SOUL when they get hit: the attacks that have just attacked them will make no damage before this temporal INV is gone. Unless you want to say that they have temporary Statistics Amplification (when it is straight up called Invulnerability LMAO)
It wouldn't be the first time a video game character would lose invulnerability to our standards and honesty that is basically what we did to mario.

I seen uncontradicted out of universe statements like word of god rejected you think in universe statements are immune.
 
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Agree with everything
 
Oh yeah, all this talk made forget, but the "ADDITIONS" section doesn't actually display all the changes, the biggest one not mentioned is sans getting Class M LS.
That's uh.... that's something.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just assume it was something that was overlooked and forgotten about when the additions section was being put together. Anyways, disagree with Class M cause we don't know how the fights went down and scaling it to his vines is kind of weird imo
 
The Sans wank... dies... TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE FRAUD SKELETON WILL STOP GETTING UNDESERVED CRAP, AND WILL FACE ACTUAL ACCURACY!!!

Well huh... huh... huh... No.
The first link should be replaced by the video version for reliability purposes. Plus there's this.
This is not an effect of KR. Prove me it's not Frisk feeling like crap due to the fight being unfair against them.
If you have Dura Neg you already can negate Invulnerability (Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm. Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. [from the page])
  • Statistic Value in Teleportation
Unneccessary as ****, as just listing it in range is enough. Bloated stuff is bloated.
Prove me it's not Flowey being pissed for Sans kicking his ass many times.
I'll have to disagree here too as Sans does not necessairly need to overpower Flowey's vines with his TK to defeat Flowey. He could've just spammed a fuckton of bones with KR to finish him. We know nothing of that fight, so we can't assume anything here.
That's uh.... that's something.
Check my other concerns plz.
 
The Sans wank... dies... TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE FRAUD SKELETON WILL STOP GETTING UNDESERVED CRAP, AND WILL FACE ACTUAL ACCURACY!!!

Nah Sans’d dodge
Plus there's this.
I thought he put it as a hyperlink so didn’t even bother to check ngl
This is not an effect of KR. Prove me it's not Frisk feeling like crap due to the fight being unfair against them.
Frisk who did not give a shit about killing Toriel or Papyrus, hunted for many monsters just for the sake of killing is now feeling guilty? C’mon now. Although it’s not really KARMA effect, we see this text even in no-hit.
If you have Dura Neg you already can negate Invulnerability (Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm. Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. [from the page])
Mettaton has Dura Neg and does not negate Frisk’s Invulnerability. But Frisk’s INV is not really Invulnerability anyways, it’s just becoming intangible.
 
Frisk who did not give a shit about killing Toriel or Papyrus, hunted for many monsters just for the sake of killing is now feeling guilty?
It's because of them knowing that they have no consequence anyway due to whatever they do being washed away from the RESETs.
Although it’s not really KARMA effect, we see this text even in no-hit.
True.
Mettaton has Dura Neg and does not negate Frisk’s Invulnerability. But Frisk’s INV is not really Invulnerability anyways, it’s just becoming intangible.
This hurt's Sans' thing even more. But besides that, it's because Frisk's INV triggers after being hit, MTT's thing works because it's a single attack, hence why INV does not trigger.
 
I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just assume it was something that was overlooked and forgotten about when the additions section was being put together.
Yeah thats my bad.

I will make my counter arguments to Stryms comments. Many wrong points are being made... so wait for me lol
 
It's because of them knowing that they have no consequence anyway due to whatever they do being washed away from the RESETs.
Not only this does not attack my point at all, it’s not correct either: Frisk’s mindset is completely broken on Genocide, Toriel literally states that Frisk HATES them, monsters don’t recognize human in him (aka analogue on “humanity”). Genocide Frisk is a murdered who hunts enemies in the corners just to clear locations. They enjoy punching the dummy.
But they for some unholy reason feel guilty in the battle against Sans… it seems rather evident that it should be Sans’ ability, since Frisk feeling guilty is essentially non-sensical.
This hurt's Sans' thing even more. But besides that, it's because Frisk's INV triggers after being hit, MTT's thing works because it's a single attack, hence why INV does not trigger.
INV animation and sound is seen against MTT but not Sans. But INV doesn’t work simply because Sans’ attacks are intangible.
 
Yes. They're ignorant unlike us, the Player.
You still haven’t provided a proof to your claim at all. We have in-game explanations that Frisk hates Toriel, they don’t give a shit about Papyrus’ puzzles, they hunt all the monsters in every corner to kill them, they kill Papyrus and don’t care at all about his last words, they simply use Monster Kid to get on the cliff, nobody sees anything humane in Frisk. Textbook definition of maniac if you ask me.
Saying that they can feel guilt by themselves is non-sensical.
 
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