"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

[TheOrangeGuy09]

So then. . .why is this not just Sans breaking the rules of Undertale's system like I already said before? If even Mettaton's HP-halving attack triggers the i-frames, but Sans' doesn't, then that's basically what I already stated.

Because you’re needlessly complicating that? We can classify it as INV Negation. Sans is the only monster to dodge Frisk’s attacks, but we do no give him 4th Wall break for that, we give him high reaction speed (and eventually IA). Sans is the only monster to ignore Frisk’s durability, but we do not give him 4th Wall Break due to that, we give him Durability Negation. Same thing here.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You know, giving sans Invulnerability Negation would definitely remove his fast dura neg, and make the KARMA poison the only dura neg aspect of it.
Would be a shame if so.

No? The verse blatantly shows that ignoring durability does not equate of negating invulnerability. I used MTT for a reason.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yes. He wouldn't have durability negation if we don't count the per-frame damage he does, he'd just have the basic UT monster one.

What argument is even this? He has durability negation for constantly dealing Frisk 1 damage despite them having far higher DEF (99 DEF with Heart-locket), INV stuff has nothing to do with its justification.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What argument is even this? He has durability negation for constantly dealing Frisk 1 damage despite them having far higher DEF (99 DEF with Heart-locket), INV stuff has nothing to do with its justification.

Every monster can do that? That's the entire basis behind their "Limited Durability Negation"? That they always deal at least 1 damage.

 

[Lou_change]

If it is preventing the activation of the invulnerability it wouldn't be invulnerability negation it would be power null since frisk isn't even becoming invulnerable.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Every monster can do that? That's the entire basis behind their "Limited Durability Negation"? That they always deal at least 1 damage.

No? They have it because against the guy with the same tier, they would need attack their SOUL and ignore conventional durability. It was established long time ago that monsters’ soul manipulation is bound to the opponent’s physicals, as physical armor increases DEF of the SOUL.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

If it is preventing the activation of the invulnerability it wouldn't be invulnerability negation it would be power null since frisk isn't even becoming invulnerable.

It nullifies only Invulnerability. Negation always links to Powernull. Hence why Invulnerability Negation. Lol.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Actually yeah, that's a good point. What invulnerability is being negated if it isn't being activated in the first place?

Not to mention, you are capable of having invulnerability in the Sans fight via the Cloudy Goggles and Torn Notebook, as noted before. If Sans were negating invulnerability, he would still be able to damage Frisk regardless of whether or not they have those items equipped. And yet, he doesn't.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Actually yeah, that's a good point. What invulnerability is being negated if it isn't being activated in the first place?

It nullifies only Invulnerability. Negation always links to Powernull. Hence why Invulnerability Negation. Lol.

Not to mention, you are capable of having invulnerability in the Sans fight via the Cloudy Goggles and Torn Notebook, as noted before. If Sans were negating invulnerability, he would still be able to damage Frisk regardless of whether or not they have those items equipped. And yet, he doesn't.

Irrelevant cuz INV is set to 0 and their INV boost mechanics is reworked for the fight:

Spoiler: Yappery

Invulnerability is set to 0 during the fight against Sans thanks to his KARMA ability. The Cloudy Glasses' and Torn Notebook's INV-boosting utility is still present, but it is reworked for the fight:[3]

• If only the Torn Notebook is equipped, damage is ignored once every five frames, and KR has a 50% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If only the Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every four frames, and KR has a 67% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If both the Torn Notebook and Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every three frames, and KR always takes longer to damage the protagonist.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly disprove it being sans just being able to powernull Invulnerability.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly prove it.

We see that Frisk’s INV is not working in the fight either, lol.

Why do I have a feeling that you two disagree with blatant INV Negation just for the sake of doing so

 

[Lou_change]

I seen pages link invulnerability negation with durability negation which isn't power null in most cases so I was unsure what was meant. I also am not sure if INV actually meet all the standards for invulnerability.

Yeah, the 0 INV thing can definitely just be seen as the code reason why sans can deal so much damage so fast, it not having an effect on the Invincibility Additions of the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook certainly disprove it being sans just being able to powernull Invulnerability.

Both explicitly work differently in the fight

 

[thetechmaster36]

Yes, thank you for proving my point Orange, I'm glad we agree that Sans is incapable of truly negating Invulnerability if it does not bypass the INV given by the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook.

And again, he's not negating Invulnerability if it is not actually active.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I seen pages link invulnerability negation with durability negation which isn't power null in most cases so I was unsure what was meant.

Check any Hazbin Hotel profile

I also am not sure if INV actually meet all the standards for invulnerability.

It does. It’s straight up called so and has its properties

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Power Null seems fine, though I am kind of iffy on it

Neutral on Invul Negation for now. I’ll let others argue it out before I say anything on it.

Empath Manip is fine (better than mental corruption or however you put it last time)

Intangibility seems fine

Toon Force also seems fine

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yes, thank you for proving my point Orange, I'm glad we agree that Sans is incapable of truly negating Invulnerability if it does not bypass the INV given by the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook.

1) I hate this type of sarcasm. It makes me mad. We both know I never agreed;
2) Torn Notebook & Cloudy Glasses do not even give you Invulnerability the way it does with any monster, it just does what I described below, so it is not even a refuttal.

Spoiler: Yappery

Invulnerability is set to 0 during the fight against Sans thanks to his KARMA ability. The Cloudy Glasses' and Torn Notebook's INV-boosting utility is still present, but it is reworked for the fight:[3]

• If only the Torn Notebook is equipped, damage is ignored once every five frames, and KR has a 50% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If only the Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every four frames, and KR has a 67% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If both the Torn Notebook and Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every three frames, and KR always takes longer to damage the protagonist.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Oh yeah, all this talk made forget, but the "ADDITIONS" section doesn't actually display all the changes, the biggest one not mentioned is sans getting Class M LS.

 

[Lou_change]

It does. It’s straight up called so and has its properties

Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify."

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Honestly it seems more like Intangibility than Invulnerability, it legit makes you pass through attacks, so like???

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

Frisk gets Invulnurability for their SOUL when they get hit: the attacks that have just attacked them will make no damage before this temporal INV is gone. Unless you want to say that they have temporary Statistics Amplification (when it is straight up called Invulnerability LMAO)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not quite we need an in universe explanation why it makes them invulnerable and no just having a quote saying they are invulnerable doesn't count.

From the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through. Others have more conditional invulnerability, such as one that just prevents harm from conventional weaponry, but can be easily circumvented by supernatural abilities. It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify."

Also from in-game info:

Glasses marred with wear. Increases INV by 9.
(After you get hurt by an attack, you stay invulnerable for longer.)

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mettaton gets called Invulnerable 3 times in each Check, lad doesn't get the ability tho.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mettaton gets called Invulnerable 3 times in each Check, lad doesn't get the ability tho.

Because in his case he’s straight up far more durable. ******* 255 DEF and it says that his metal body is what makes him invulnerable. False equivalence.

 

[Lou_change]

Frisk gets Invulnurability for their SOUL when they get hit: the attacks that have just attacked them will make no damage before this temporal INV is gone. Unless you want to say that they have temporary Statistics Amplification (when it is straight up called Invulnerability LMAO)

It wouldn't be the first time a video game character would lose invulnerability to our standards and honesty that is basically what we did to mario.

I seen uncontradicted out of universe statements like word of god rejected you think in universe statements are immune.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Because in his case he’s straight up far more durable. ******* 255 DEF and it says that his metal body is what makes him invulnerable. False equivalence.

And INV's case, Frisk just phases through attacks, which doesn't at all fit what Invulnerability is supposed to be.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

And INV's case, Frisk just phases through attacks, which doesn't at all fit what Invulnerability is supposed to be.

Actually, actually…
You have a point.

 

[Omegabronic]

And INV's case, Frisk just phases through attacks, which doesn't at all fit what Invulnerability is supposed to be.

Do.....do they? Iirc the attacks just....vanishes, after hitting them

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Do.....do they? Iirc the attacks just....vanishes, after hitting them

The original attack that hits Frisk just vanishes, but other just go through and make no damage

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Agree with everything