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Undertale: General CRT

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ShionAH said:
Wait you agreed with law hax??
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I agree, but using other arguments. Not Sans taking his turn forever, but other things, like using bones to damage the player even though it's the player's turn.

ShionAH said:
You literally talked about frisk moving the box was law hax-
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Sans does nothing to never pass his turn, it wouldn't be law manipulation or resistance, since he knows the mechanic and is just using it in his favor.

However, Frisk breaks the mechanism/law. Even though it's not her turn, she finds a way to use the buttons to attack Sans. She broke a law, since in the turn rule, it was Sans's turn and she couldn't do anything (besides dodging his blows with her soul). So it would be law manipulation or resistance for her and not Sans.

Do you mind if I call Frisk "she"? It's a habit.
 
I agree with everything here

I do think some people undersold the "All Monsters and Humans Disappeared with out a Trace"

Sure he might not have killed every single human... but he is shown having an extreme amount of LOVE ... it's a pretty obvious clue he killed large quanities of humans and monsters
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I agree, but using other arguments. Not Sans taking his turn forever, but other things, like using bones to damage the player even though it's the player's turn.


Sans does nothing to never pass his turn, it wouldn't be law manipulation or resistance, since he knows the mechanic and is just using it in his favor.

However, Frisk breaks the mechanism/law. Even though it's not her turn, she finds a way to use the buttons to attack Sans. She broke a law, since in the turn rule, it was Sans's turn and she couldn't do anything (besides dodging his blows with her soul). So it would be law manipulation or resistance for her and not Sans.

Do you mind if I call Frisk "she"? It's a habit.
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If you agree then I am fine, so do you propose a resistance to frisk for law hax?
 
ImmortalDread said:
Are there any statements for that? Because visually it will hardly be accepted.
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Is already accepted* but here are the proofs.

Flowey states that the SOUL gets stronger the more LV is gained, and LV in context is Level of Violence, which is basically a statistic which increases the all the other ones.

And yet, physical equipment increases the stats as well from adding their value to those, and reduces the damage dealt to the SOUL, given that is what directly attacked in the fights.

The SOUL is indeed inside Frisk's body as well as showcased here, but also from simple physical food healing SOUL damage.

Plus, Monsters' body are directly said to be linked with their SOUL.

Sans015 said:
Frisk doesn't. They scale, they should have since the beginning. All hail Ultra.
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Whut?
1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void said:
So according to the op frisk is the only one getting mid-godly right?
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No, Frisk is Low Godly too.
TheMonkeMan said:
I still don't see how it's low-godly regen honestly
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Mind elaborating lmao? Because it was agreed that only the consciousness is needed to regen.
 
ShionAH said:
If you agree then I am fine, so do you propose a resistance to frisk for law hax?
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I don't know, I'm never sure of anything, I don't know if ignoring a mechanic/law like Frisk is doing is manipulation or resistance, and that law manipulation part of the CRT is talking about Sans not Frisk.

I'm just giving my view of things to help with the discussion and circulation of ideas and arguments.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
You said Frisk was completely ersased iirc.
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This is the last time I'll say it.

LOAD shown the ability to recover from SOUL + Body destruction, as Flowey, a soulless being, can use it to come back after the physical death, from just willing very hard to not die.

Frisk could not use SAVE and LOAD in the Asriel fight, and instead of using Time Travel, they just regenerate from it. Meaning that they have converted LOAD in Regeneration, and given that neither SOUL nor Body are needed for the usage of LOAD, neither should it be for Regen.
 
StrymULTRA said:
...there's not AE argument here my guy.
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You're right, I misread the OP.

"I think it would be NEP Type 1 Aspect Type 1 at least, given that Chara lacks a SOUL."

Read that as Abstract, was extremely confused why that was being proposed.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Frisk could not use SAVE and LOAD in the Asriel fight, and instead of using Time Travel, they just regenerate from it. Meaning that they have converted LOAD in Regeneration, and given that neither SOUL nor Body are needed for the usage of LOAD, neither should it be for Regen.
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Sorry for jumping in, but I can't see how this is being converted from LOAD, when Frisk literally can't use LOAD.
 
StrymULTRA said:
This is the last time I'll say it.

LOAD shown the ability to recover from SOUL + Body destruction, as Flowey, a soulless being, can use it to come back after the physical death, from just willing very hard to not die.

Frisk could not use SAVE and LOAD in the Asriel fight, and instead of using Time Travel, they just regenerate from it. Meaning that they have converted LOAD in Regeneration, and given that neither SOUL nor Body are needed for the usage of LOAD, neither should it be for Regen.
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Can you just, post proof of Flowey doing this for once? Thank you very much.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Because it is the counterpart of LOAD, and it is used when LOAD cannot be used lol.
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Actually, good point from them.

We know Determination can restore one's body and soul from total destruction by reverting time. We also know Determination can restore somewhat of the Soul and body via regeneration.

But how do we know if the Determination would be able to put together a body and soul that has been completely erased from existence? You cannot convert the ability to do that via time travel/load to regeneration because they are two different set of abilities entirely, they don't... correlate or translate at all... Just because DT is effective at doing it one way doesn't mean it's as effective at doing it the other.

Can you explain how these two polar opposite methods of restoring a being translate to one another? I'd like to add already that having the same end result does not mean much.

And just because regeneration is replacing LOAD, it doesn't mean it's as effective either, because DT has to do it out of desperation and being out of options... We can't say regen is as effective as loading.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Flowey being soulless is already in profile bruh.
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Oh my ******* god.
LOAD shown the ability to recover from SOUL + Body destruction, as Flowey, a soulless being, can use it to come back after the physical death, from just willing very hard to not die.
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Simply provide evidence that Flowey did this. It's that simple.
 
Sans015 said:
Actually, good point from them.

We know Determination can restore one's body and soul from total destruction by reverting time. We also know Determination can restore somewhat of the Soul and body via regeneration.

But how do we know if the Determination would be able to put together a body and soul that has been completely erased from existence? You cannot convert the ability to do that via time travel/load to regeneration because they are two different set of abilities entirely, they don't... correlate or translate at all... Just because DT is effective at doing it one way doesn't mean it's as effective at doing it the other.

Can you explain how these two polar opposite methods of restoring a being translate to one another? I'd like to add already that having the same end result does not mean much.
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Why wouldn't it mean much? It's basically a safety mode from DT which is used if the user cannot LOAD, but they still have enough DT to fight. If one does, the other must do as well.
TheMonkeMan said:
Simply provide evidence that Flowey did this. It's that simple.
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Here.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Why wouldn't it mean much? It's basically a safety mode from DT which is used if the user cannot LOAD, but they still have enough DT to fight. If one does, the other must do as well.
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Because just because both get the same result, it does not mean both are as effective to get to that result, since it requires two completely different set of capabilities. One is time hax, the other is fabricating matter for the sake of consciousness.

"If one does, the other must do as well."
Why? Just because DT is forced to use a different method, it doesn't mean this method is as effective as the original one, especially when it has been forced into this situation.

I am not on par with even Low Godly anymore.
 
Sans015 said:
Because just because both get the same result, it does not mean both are as effective to get to that result, since it requires two completely different set of capabilities. One is time hax, the other is fabricating matter for the sake of consciousness.
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Both are made through refusing to die though. Same origin, same result, but different ways.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Both are made through refusing to die though. Same origin, same result, but different ways.
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Two abilities may have the same origin, and the same result, but not being as effective on the way it gets to said results.

We know determination can heal. But fabricating matter and SOUL? We can't know that for sure.
 
This argument sounds like saying someone has two way's to set something on fire: Fire Manip and (Insert some stronger variant like Primordial Fire Manip Here). Even if they both come from the same power source, one could easily be more potent/effective than the other, regardless of if they produce similar results.

Or maybe another example would be Ki vs God Ki from DB. Sure, they both come from one's natural Life Force and Energy (Iirc at least), and they may both produce similar effects, but it's confirmed that 9/10 times God Ki is stronger.

If one desires another example, I would be happy to try to come up with one, but the point is that even if they come from the same source and have similar effects, we don't know if one process is as potent as the other.
 
Example;

Let's say we want to time travel.

One person uses it's abilities to run faster than time to go from 2010 to 1950.
The other person uses a one-way time machine to go from 2010 to 1950.

Same origin, same destination, but different ways of achieving it. Yet, we cannot say both people have the same amount of effectiveness on their way to traverse through time.

The same applies to Frisk's situation.
 
Sans015 said:
Two abilities may have the same origin, and the same result, but not being as effective on the way it gets to said results.
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And who says that exactly? Because is still DT based at the end of the day, which does not care of the status of the SOUL/Body to apply.
Sans015 said:
We know determination can heal. But fabricating matter and SOUL? We can't know that for sure.
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It does not really matter to be fair, as "death" in Undertale is also Soul + Body destruction. I do not see why refusing to die means being unable to remake Body and SOUL, given that can be already achieved from time manip.
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Or maybe another example would be Ki vs God Ki from DB. Sure, they both come from one's natural Life Force and Energy (Iirc at least), and they may both produce similar effects, but it's confirmed that 9/10 times God Ki is stronger.
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Out of any examples you could have avoided right this one lol.
Sans015 said:
Example;

Let's say we want to time travel.

One person uses it's abilities to run faster than time to go from 2010 to 1950.
The other person uses a one-way time machine to go from 2010 to 1950.

Same origin, same destination, but different ways of achieving it. Yet, we cannot say both people have the same amount of effectiveness on their way to traverse through time.

The same applies to Frisk's situation.
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But this isn't just two kinds of Time Travel, is comparing an ability which is used instead of the other.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Is there a problem with that example? If so, sorry- You can refer to my other example if that's good enough, or I can try to think of another.
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God Ki being superior to Ki was a concept which was abandoned already fro RoF lol.

But this ain't time to talk about Dragon Ball.
 
StrymULTRA said:
And who says that exactly? Because is still DT based at the end of the day, which does not care of the status of the SOUL/Body to apply.
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No one says that, but you have to prove this method is as powerful as the other one.

It doesn't care about them to act and do things, sure. That doesn't mean it's capable of doing things we've never seeing it do, which is restoring a body and a soul from nothingness in any other way other than time travel. Assuming DT can do that is No-Limits Fallacy at it's finest.
Remember, you can't translate or convert one ability to another because they are different and are not related in requirements to work. You just can't convert time travel to manipulating matter to reconstruct soul and body from scratch, DT has never done that, at best it healed already existing soul/matter.
StrymULTRA said:
But this isn't just two kinds of Time Travel, is comparing an ability which is used instead of the other.
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That's to show,
even two similar abilities are not scalable to one another because they require different methods. These are ones that are not related.
 
StrymULTRA said:
God Ki being superior to Ki was a concept which was abandoned already fro RoF lol.

But this ain't time to talk about Dragon Ball.
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Mmm, my bad. Not terribly involved with this sites particular db community- But you're right, we'll stop here.

In any case, I think it's pretty evident that we don't know if the Regen does the same thing at the same potency that LOAD does. In fact, looking at the animation in the fight, I'm almost convinced that the SOUL might not even fully break- It looks like it splits for a second, but with the proximity of the two pieces...- Though, this part can be speculation, point is we don't know fully what occur's with the Regen, and the method is clearly different from LOAD.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Mmm, my bad. Not terribly involved with this sites particular db community- But you're right, we'll stop here.

In any case, I think it's pretty evident that we don't know if the Regen does the same thing at the same potency that LOAD does. In fact, looking at the animation in the fight, I'm almost convinced that the SOUL might not even fully break- It looks like it splits for a second, but with the proximity of the two pieces...- Though, this part can be speculation, point is we don't know fully what occur's with the Regen, and the method is clearly different from LOAD.
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Even if it did, it still would not be enough to Low Godly, that is what's crazy.
Any Godly regeneration requires full erasure from present reality, not even an atom should remain.
 
Sans015 said:
Remember, you can't translate or convert one ability to another because they are different and are not related in requirements to work. You just can't convert time travel to manipulating matter to reconstruct soul and body from scratch, DT has never done that, at best it healed already existing soul/matter.
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Technically Amalgamates have already possilbly Low Godly based on them being able to become non-physical (and is related to DT, might be outdated though).

Though this is getting circular, let's drop here and see what the staff thinks.
 
Sans015 said:
Even if it did, it still would not be enough to Low Godly, that is what's crazy.
Any Godly regeneration requires full erasure from present reality, not even an atom should remain.
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Yeah, I can't really say either way for LOAD, but that definitely isn't something proven by the Regen

For all we know, Asriel is just... REALLY bad at Erasing bodies
 
StrymULTRA said:
Though this is getting circular, let's drop here and see what the staff thinks.
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Why is it that when we get to a point where I ask you to provide any kind of support for your argument, you simply say "it's getting circular"?

I am fine with whatever is decided, I just think it's NFL. Let us move on.
 
Sans015 said:
Why is it that when we get to a point where I ask you to provide any kind of support for your argument, you simply say "it's getting circular"?

I am fine with whatever is decided, I just think it's NFL. Let us move on.
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Actually, you have a point.

Not to be aggressive or too accusatory, but it is peculiar that something comes up which contests what they argue, and then they try to get the convo to stop when someone presses the issue for a small period of time.

I would like to see some more concrete support/evidence, too.
 
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