Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[Livinmeme]

That make me sad because it renembers how much my drawing skill sucks

thanks i guess

 

[Antvasima]

Me, WeeklyBattles, Abstractions, Sir Ovens, and others already agree with what Abstractions said about Hammer Units. Also, I do not support rockets being that slow, so I think it's best to just compare rockets to real world counter parts but avoid downscaling character reactions and movement speeds from the rockets entirely.

Other feats such as repelling arrows are fine to use, but definitely not using the hammer unit scaling given how inconsistent it is.

Well, I am not well informed, so it is probably best to go with what the rest of our staff think is best.

 

[Abstractions]

Well, I am not well informed, so it is probably best to go with what the rest of our staff think is best.

I'm thinking Athletic Human for all the Mercenaries except for Scout, who will be Peak Human, scaling for the rest of the verse goes from there.

Only one I'm considering not scaling is Merasmus, who should just be left at Unknown.

 

[Leotamer]

I don't see how you are scaling people at all if you said that the current measure is inaccurate and can not be trusted and have not yet provided an alternative.

 

[TheGatememer]

No offense, but not placing their reactions at Subsonic (via Pyro reflecting arrows) by the claim that we can't use gameplay because its "inaccurate" somehow (even though its an intended mechanic) is, to put it simply, a huge double standard. For any other verse, this would be a straight forward addition.

 

[Abstractions]

I don't see how you are scaling people at all if you said that the current measure is inaccurate and can not be trusted and have not yet provided an alternative.

The mercenaries are athletic people, they engage in combat on a regular basis.

Scout is the fastest of the group, having spent his entire life running, in which he moved fast enough to get in front of a train as it was slowing down in a short timeframe, thus his separation in tier.

These are rather self-evident things, unless you would prefer I rate them even lower.

No offense, but not placing their reactions at Subsonic (via Pyro reflecting arrows) by the claim that we can't use gameplay because its "inaccurate" somehow is, to put it simply, downplay. For any other verse, this would be a straight forward addition.

This was never the claim and I had specified it was due to the canonicity of the gameplay being put in jeopardy based on the comic telling us the game is a dramatization, but this will be covered at a later date.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Reminder that i calced spy's feat of killing a guy really fast
Should i post it in the evaluations thread?

 

[TheGatememer]

Reminder that i calced spy's feat of killing a guy really fast
Should i post it in the evaluations thread?

yes.

 

[Leotamer]

The mercenaries are athletic people, they engage in combat on a regular basis.

Scout is the fastest of the group, having spent his entire life running, in which he moved fast enough to get in front of a train as it was slowing down in a short timeframe, thus his separation in tier.

These are rather self-evident things, unless you would prefer I rate them even lower.

And so your entire argument is that "I don't know what they actually scale to, but this is as far as I can low-ball them without being obviously wrong, so that is what I am going with."

 

[Abstractions]

Reminder that i calced spy's feat of killing a guy really fast
Should i post it in the evaluations thread?

Mind you Scout also wasn't really paying attention to this whole ordeal, he was talking out loud and droning on.

And so your entire argument is that "I don't know what they actually scale to, but this is as far as I can low-ball them without being obviously wrong, so that is what I am going with."

You haven't proven I'm low-balling them, and if you haven't noticed I've waited and actually requested calculations be done for their speed, so I don't know what's giving you the impression that I'm not striving for accuracy here.

You're implying that I haven't a clue what the mercenaries scale to but I've read through plenty of the material available myself, you don't have a reason to doubt my credibility on the subject.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And so your entire argument is that "I don't know what they actually scale to, but this is as far as I can low-ball them without being obviously wrong, so that is what I am going with."

The argument is that anything less then Athletic Human is utter downplay since these guys are some of the most dangerous mercenaries in the world and should damn well move like athletes.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Also wouldn't spy's feat also be a reaction/combat speed feat? i only calced the movement speed and spy would probably need superhuman reactions to pull it off

 

[TheGatememer]

Also wouldn't spy's feat also be a reaction/combat speed feat? i only calced the movement speed and spy would probably need superhuman reactions to pull it off

Kinda redundant with the subsonic reaction feat from Pyro's airblast.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also the mercs lack very many movement speed feats

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I mean Demo has a feat of moving at comparable speed to his explosions in Meet The Demoman

 

[DaReaperMan]

Don't most explosions move at Subsonic speeds?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I think explosions actually move at Supersonic or Hypersonic speeds

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then we are probably looking at an outlier...

 

[Abstractions]

This is not moving at comparable speeds.

 

[Livinmeme]

Kinda redundant with the subsonic reaction feat from Pyro's airblast.

transonic via reflecting rockets still exist and is not dependent in hammer units to work and air blast is more designed to reflect rockets than arrows anyway

 

[Livinmeme]

This is not moving at comparable speeds.

That is supersonic+ to hypersonic but that should be calced anyway

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is not moving at comparable speeds.

I agree with you here, Demoman was past the explosives before they went off

 

[Livinmeme]

Then we are probably looking at an outlier...

No? we put the mercs speed because of lack of feats and that most of his impresive speed feats arent calced

 

[DaReaperMan]

No? we put the mercs speed because of lack of feats and that most of his impresive speed feats arent calced

See above

 

[TheGatememer]

transonic via reflecting rockets still exist and is not dependent in hammer units to work and air blast is more designed to reflect rockets than arrows anyway

I think that most RPG rockets move at subsonic speeds.

 

[Livinmeme]

I agree with you here, Demoman was past the explosives before they went off

He still outruned the explosion and that still a feat speed and maybe he was past because he was faster that the explosions? and saying that he alredy outruned the explosions is stupid because there arent anything to prove against that and make more sense in the context of the scene

 

[TheGatememer]

He still outruned the explosion and that still a feat speed and maybe he was past because he was faster that the explosions? and saying that he alredy outruned the explosions is stupid because there arent anything to prove against that and make more sense in the context of the scene

He was already out of the range of the explosions by the time they went off.

 

[Livinmeme]

See above

That was a casual feat and isnt a anti feat you know if A character does MSH feat casually then he does a FTL feat A that doesnt mean the FTL feat is a outlier specially when the character pulled the feat casually.

 

[TheGatememer]

That was a casual feat and isnt a anti feat you know if A character does MSH feat casually then he does a FTL feat A that doesnt mean the FTL feat is a outlier specially when the character pulled the feat casually.

We already explained why the feat isn't valid.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Gonna try to update my spy calc a bit to make it more accurate, since it's very obvious that he traveled a lot more than i calculated

 

[Livinmeme]

He was already out of the range of the explosions by the time they went off.

He still outruned the explosions if he was slower that the explosions by a large marge the explosions would caugth him and that still a speed feat and should be calced

AKA: you still need to be comparable to the explosion speed to not be caugth and just because you are alredy beyond the explosion doesnt mean he is slower that the explosion and hear me out what if he outrun the explosion? just because he outruned the explosion doesnt mean he haved a advantage

 

[Livinmeme]

We already explained why the feat isn't valid.

and i debunked that because that was a big double standard

and again that feat should be calced

 

[Livinmeme]

If he was slower that the explosion he would still get caugth that is like saying a human can outrun a bullet because he was 100 meter of advantage yeah he haved a distance advantage but the bullet would still caugth him

 

[TheGatememer]

He still outruned the explosions if he was slower that the explosions by a large marge the explosions would caugth him and that still a speed feat and should be calced

Not if he's literally outside the range of the explosion.

and i debunked that because that was a big double standard

...wat

and again that feat should be calced

No

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think that most RPG rockets move at subsonic speeds.

Starting at 115 meters a second right out of the barrel and 295 meters a second once the rocket ignites.

He still outruned the explosions if he was slower that the explosions by a large marge the explosions would caugth him and that still a speed feat and should be calced

AKA: you still need to be comparable to the explosion speed to not be caugth and just because you are alredy beyond the explosion doesnt mean he is slower that the explosion and hear me out what if he outrun the explosion? just because he outruned the explosion doesnt mean he haved a advantage

Why should a clear feat of just having explosions go off behind you be anything more then athletic human? You are making a bigger deal of this feat then it actually is.

 

[TheGatememer]

If he was slower that the explosion he would still get caugth that is like saying a human can outrun a bullet because he was 100 meter of advantage yeah he haved a distance advantage but the bullet would still caugth him

False equivalency. Bullets can travel 100 m easily. Clearly, the explosions here did not travel as far as demo ran before they went off.

 

[Livinmeme]

Not if he's literally outside the range of the explosion.

...wat

No

Okay he was in the range of the explosion and he was outruning it Just because he haved a distance advantage doesnt mean he is slower he was in the explosion range and he was outruning

 

[Livinmeme]

Starting at 115 meters a second right out of the barrel and 295 meters a second once the rocket ignites.

Why should a clear feat of just having explosions go off behind you be anything more then athletic human? You are making a bigger deal of this feat then it actually is.

Because he was outruning it? if he was peak human the explosions would caugth him especially when most explosions are supersonic+ and no he was in range of the explosion Just because he was like 4 meters behind make the feat magically invalid

and also when i am refering double standards is because some characters do extremlly similar feats and this isnt accepted

Character that i am refering that escaping a explosions is atleast transonic

 

[TheGatememer]

He. Wasn't. In. The. Range. Of. The. Explosion.

There is no outrunning here, the explosions happened behind him one by one. Right after Demo already got out of the range of them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because he was outruning it? if he was peak human the explosions would caugth him especially when most explosions are supersonic+ and no he was in range of the explosion Just because he was like 4 meters behind make the feat magically invalid

and also when i am refering double standards is because some characters do extremlly similar feats and this isnt accepted

Did you ever hear of this thing called range?

Two wrongs don't make a right.