Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

BONK mixes speed with preception; it's agreed that a simply "Reacting to something fired from 1 cm away" alone is not evidence of being 100x faster than something. There needs to be an on screen animation of them moving X times faster than said bullet. But in game, it just makes it look like he's intangible. But he does outpace the bullet in canon, but the speed gap is 100% unknown. So we can safely say he's faster than any type of bullet, but only to an unknown extent.

Hence, at least Supersonic, likely far higher works perfectly.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Applying the changes now, I noticed that the combat speeds are all pulled from HU/s stuff as well so that has to go, however they will be keeping compression blast reactions for deflecting projectiles such as rockets and arrows (Subsonic to Subsonic+) because these will be discussed at a later date.

EDIT: Changes have been applied.

Cool.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Because iirc the calc assumes that Scout catches the bullets, which is not the case.

Wha--? Look I wished but he doesn't catch them WTF. XD

He apparently evades them if I recall, they go through him because of his quickness with BONK.

 

[Livinmeme]

BONK mixes speed with preception; it's agreed that a simply "Reacting to something fired from 1 cm away" alone is not evidence of being 100x faster than something. There needs to be an on screen animation of them moving X times faster than said bullet. But in game, it just makes it look like he's intangible. But he does outpace the bullet in canon, but the speed gap is 100% unknown. So we can safely say he's faster than any type of bullet, but only to an unknown extent.

Hence, at least Supersonic, likely far higher works perfectly.

Nop still can be calced using assumptions on how fast the head of scout and that should be easy to calc and at this point is obvious that the person in this thread are using bad excuses to downgrade TF2 and the wiki has been using calcs using far far far more assumptions

1.No indication on how big the mountain was and that was calced with generic mountain volume
2.nothing to decifer the speed so they assumed it

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

According to the TF2 wiki they resemble modified RPG-2 grenades, the rocket launcher itself is based on the RPG-7 however

Yeah... But if we relied on Hu they are pathetically slow for what's supposed to be a literal Mach based weaponry. If RPG-7 would be used in some way this could possibly be faster.

 

[Livinmeme]

Wha--? Look I wished but he doesn't catch them WTF. XD

He apparently evades them if I recall, they go through him because of his quickness with BONK.

they dont go trough it he avoided it there is even a sing signingling that scout avoided

 

[TheGatememer]

Nop still can be calced using assumptions on how fast the head of scout and that should be easy to calc and at this point is obvious that the person in this thread are using bad excuses to downgrade TF2 and the wiki has been using calcs using far far far more assumptions

1.No indication on how big the mountain was and that was calced with generic mountain volume
2.nothing to decifer the speed so they assumed it

Can you, ya know, stop with your accusatory tone for once? No one here is downgrading TF2 just for the heck of it. Besides, you've already been reported for this very thing.

One, two wrongs don't make a right, and Two, there isn't really even an indication of a clear timeframe for BONK, its not a traveling feat like the one you linked, which is much easier to estimate a timeframe. It's just moving fast enough to dodge bullets. Besides, even if it could be calced, it would probably be around Supersonic+ anyways, no need to complicate it further than that.

Medeus' suggestion works just fine

 

[Livinmeme]

Can you, ya know, stop with your accusatory tone for once? No one here is downgrading TF2 just for the heck of it. Besides, you've already been reported for this very thing.

One, two wrongs don't make a right, and Two, there isn't really even an indication of a clear timeframe for BONK. It's just moving fast enough to dodge bullets. Besides, even if it could be calced, it would probably be around Supersonic+ anyways, no need to complicate it further than that.

Medeus' suggestion works just fine

umm no the accusation literally no one give attention and the one who gived the accusation was you and your skeletic friend and i have reasons to do with my accusatory tone you know

1. trying to downgrade things that are not even supossed to be in the thread
2. everyone just go hive mind mentality and doesnt question the thing people in the thread say
3. because the argument was pretty bad

and what are you refering with "two wrongs dont make a rigth" i am saying that the calcs should be easy to do just calc how fast is the body of scout moving when he is dodging the bullet

and also most point black dodging bullets are like mach 30-50 or higher so...

 

[Livinmeme]

there a calc of point black bullet dodging

i am just saying and dont take it personal

 

[TheGatememer]

umm no the accusation literally no one give attention and the one who gived the accusation was you and your skeletic friend and i have reasons to do with my accusatory tone you know

You've been accusing people of trying to downgrade TF2 for no reason this entire thread. Now quit it, its frankly childish.

1. trying to downgrade things that are not even supossed to be in the thread
2. everyone just go hive mind mentality and doesnt question the thing people in the thread say
3. because the argument was pretty bad

and what are you refering with "two wrongs dont make a rigth" i am saying that the calcs should be easy to do just calc how fast is the body of scout moving when he is dodging the bullet

There is no cutscene to refer to. In game, the bullets knock him back when hit, he doesn't maneuver around them. it's just displayed as "miss" to display that the bullets missed, so referring to gameplay is out of the question.

and also most point black dodging bullets are like mach 30-50 or higher so...

Hence why we would have the "likely far higher". We don't know the extend of how much he dodged them. We don't, and honestly can't have exact numbers. Therefore, "Supersonic+, likely far higher" is fine.

 

[Livinmeme]

You've been accusing people of trying to downgrade TF2 for no reason this entire thread. Now quit it, its frankly childish.

There is no cutscene to refer to. In game, the bullets knock him back when hit, it's just displayed as "miss" to display that the bullets missed, so referring to gameplay is out of the question.

Hence why we would have the "likely far higher". We don't know the extend of how much he dodged them. We don't, and honestly can't have exact numbers. Therefore, "Supersonic+, likely far higher" is fine.

no?

1. i been giving arguments and explaining how that seem sus (dont do the joke) like the hive mind, bringing downgrades even if they said that it should been done in another thread so dont say me that i do without reason

2. the part of him knocking out is by the sphagetti code because the bonk code is pretty much the ubercharge code

3. i am kinda fine with that i am just saying that you trying to avoid a calculations seem like a aimless downgrade and that hypersonic is better because this type of dodging give results like that

 

[TheGatememer]

I've said my piece, I'm done. I've already stated why we can't calc it, and how the current suggestion is fine. If you are so insistent on it, then do it yourself. This thread is pretty much concluded anyways. ciao

 

[Livinmeme]

I've said my piece, I'm done. I've already stated why we can't calc it, and how the current suggestion is fine. If you are so insistent on it, then do it yourself. This thread is pretty much concluded anyways. ciao

Oh dont worry my boy i will calc it later to show how bad you dont want to get the feat not calced hahahaha (when i am refering later i am refering like a week or two because i dont have much free time really)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh dont worry my boy i will calc it later to show how bad you dont want to get the feat not calced hahahaha (when i am refering later i am refering like a week or two because i dont have much free time really)

Don't be a snarky asshole. And you do that, let the calc group members see if its good or not.

 

[Livinmeme]

Also why i am the only one to point how he is saying that a super easy calc that i could probally do cant be calced

just calc how fast the head need to be moving or parts of the body to avoid getting reached by the bullet that is a extremlly easy calc and he is recurring to In-Game logic to denied (saying that the scouts get knockbacked even if that is by code shenanigans and not a real anti-feat)

anyway the thread is over and they should do another thread to downgrade bonk speed (wich they dont because who needs the rules when you are downgrading TF2 anyway)

 

[Livinmeme]

Don't be a snarky asshole. And you do that, let the calc group members see if its good or not.

i am a asshole for saying him boy.. yep that make no sense!!!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Livinmeme

You're literally asking us to prove a lot of negatives to assume the Massively Hypersonic calculation is valid. You do not need to be hundreds of times faster for your head to back up way from the bullet matrix style; it can easily be done if you're simply 1.3x faster or so. But without any actual animations, the best we can assume is just a baseline with a likely higher footnote.

But even so, RTX is correct that it's something you keep doing on TF2 threads. You have repeatedly make random assumptions about Tier 8 stuff that have 0 evidence and when asked, you others just link calculations to things that have nothing to do with TF2. You were also warned numerous times and also banned at one point for doing this constantly. So please do not make this worse for yourself.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also why i am the only one to point how he is saying that a super easy calc that i could probally do cant be calced

just calc how fast the head need to be moving or parts of the body to avoid getting reached by the bullet that is a extremlly easy calc and he is recurring to In-Game logic to denied (saying that the scouts get knockbacked even if that is by code shenanigans and not a real anti-feat)

anyway the thread is over and they should do another thread to downgrade bonk speed (wich they dont because who needs the rules when you are downgrading TF2 anyway)

Maybe it's because the feat in-question has nothing but gameplay to go off of and the gameplay gives us pretty much nothing. Do not be surprised if the calc group dismisses it as having too many assumptions.

I for one have been trying to be reasonable, you seem to be purposely keeping yourself in a bad mood and thus keeping yourself unreasonable.

i am a asshole for saying him boy.. yep that make no sense!!!

I said you were an asshole because you are showing an extreme level of snark. I specifically ask you to drop the snark before it bites you in the ass.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I've said my piece, I'm done. I've already stated why we can't calc it, and how the current suggestion is fine. If you are so insistent on it, then do it yourself. This thread is pretty much concluded anyways. ciao

Let's just conclude what we have here and begin on some other CRT I'd possible

 

[Livinmeme]

Maybe it's because the feat in-question has nothing but gameplay to go off of and the gameplay gives us pretty much nothing. Do not be surprised if the calc group dismisses it as having too many assumptions.

I for one have been trying to be reasonable, you seem to be purposely keeping yourself in a bad mood and thus keeping yourself unreasonable.

I said you were an asshole because you are showing an extreme level of snark. I specifically ask you to drop the snark before it bites you in the ass.

okay last thing what assumption i was gona make i never what assumption and the calc requieres low to zero assumptions because is just a generic bullet feat i am gona explain you easilly how it works

calc the length of the scout head then calc how fast he needs to move to avoid it

also in this wiki acting like a smug user is a insult apperently even if i didnt say any insult or treath him badly i am just saying him boy who isnt even a insult

also dont lie to yourself the post in self were in a angry mood and the attempts of trying to avoid the feat to be calced was funny anyway

also if the feat cant be calced then is the supersonic+ a big assumption or is just works whatever is convienient for him

also this is my last post because this have been going for to long it was fun at the begining seing he inventing mental gymanstics to avoid getting upgrades (wich isnt a insult and i am saying that because he probally gona take it as a insult) so... yes gg no ree

 

[Livinmeme]

ah and also i wasnt using the In-game to calc it i was using the legth of scout body and sniper Rifle to calc it who is totatlly independent of the game to work so there is that if you missunderstand i am sorry my english is not very good

 

[DaReaperMan]

How are you going to prove Scout moved very much? There is no animation for him moving out of the way of the bullets, all we have is Scout being pushed back and a miss popping up. Like DDM said it doesn't take much speed to dodge a bullet, Supersonic+ is actually a high-end. But as long as it is accepted by the calc group members with a video detailing the feat then I am fine with it.

The only time my calm was disturbed for this thread was when you blatantly ignored when I said two wrongs don't make a right. Aka the only time I've bolded text in this entire thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's try to be polite to each other here please.

 

[Livinmeme]

How are you going to prove Scout moved very much? There is no animation for him moving out of the way of the bullets, all we have is Scout being pushed back and a miss popping up. Like DDM said it doesn't take much speed to dodge a bullet, Supersonic+ is actually a high-end. But as long as it is accepted by the calc group members with a video detailing the feat then I am fine with it.

The only time my calm was disturbed for this thread was when you blatantly ignored when I said two wrongs don't make a right. Aka the only time I've bolded text in this entire thread.

i wasnt using the In-game to calc it i was using the legth of scout body and sniper Rifle to calc it who is totatlly independent of the game to work so there is that

i wasnt using the game to calc it i was using how fast the body of scout needs to move to avoid getting hitted by the bullet and that is a prove you didnt read the 3 times i sayed that (maybe be more IDK) so... yes before arguing please read the whole story and dont go ahead knowing what the opponent commented

 

[Livinmeme]

Let's try to be polite to each other here please.

well he said i am snarky asshole. for saying boy at his friend and i never sayed a insult but yeah can you close this thread and please say that they need to do a seperate thread to downgrade bonk

also dodging bullets are totally viable with only the face values

 

[DaReaperMan]

well he said i am snarky asshole. for saying boy at his friend and i never sayed a insult but yeah can you close this thread and please say that they need to do a seperate thread to downgrade bonk

also dodging bullets are totally viable with only the face values

Oh dont worry my boy i will calc it later to show how bad you dont want to get the feat not calced hahahaha (when i am refering later i am refering like a week or two because i dont have much free time really)

sigh

 

[Thelastmlg]

Question, if we are scaling bonk to whatever it can tank/dodge in game, couldn't we scale to to the explosions too?

 

[Livinmeme]

sigh

saying hahhaha isnt a insult and that is maximun acting smug and that is not ban worth it and wasnt a insult and neither try to get him angry

also that is a laugh

 

[DaReaperMan]

saying hahhaha isnt a insult and that is maximun acting smug and that is not ban worth it and wasnt a insult and neither try to get him angry

Acting smug tends to irritate people.

 

[Livinmeme]

Acting smug tends to irritate people.

oh sorry then but still not as close to acting like a snarky asshole

 

[DaReaperMan]

oh sorry then but still not as close to acting like a snarky asshole

It was a bit extreme on my end so I apologize.

 

[Livinmeme]

It was a bit extreme on my end so I apologize.

Okay

 

[Antvasima]

Let's stick to the main topic here instead of derailing any further.

 

[Abstractions]

Oh yeah, I think it was also agreed "BONK" should be downgraded to at least Supersonic, likely far higher as opposed to the hypothetical Massively Hypersonic calculation.

If it was I must have missed it, in which I can apply that change now if it is acceptable.

Also, thank you for correcting my combat vs. attack speed mistakes, DDM.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If it was I must have missed it, in which I can apply that change now if it is acceptable.

I wouldn't, Bonk is going to be calced again as seen above

 

[Thelastmlg]

Question, if we are scaling bonk to whatever it can tank/dodge in game, couldn't we scale to to the explosions too?

.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is left to do here?

 

[Livinmeme]

So what is left to do here?

Downgrade movement speed of the mercs

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody summarise the arguments for and against please?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Okay. Can somebody summarise the arguments for and against please?

Apparently Demo's explosion outrunning feat is a no go unless somebody else who calcs it says otherwise, but surely the same possibly might be said about it.

And before you ask, yes this was recommended in the calc request, no dice. we need help with this asap though maybe it might not count after all.