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Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

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Livinmeme said:
also scout moving somewhere the speed of a train is subsonic and dont say MUH the train is slow because that is from the limitations of SFM and a thing moving slower that in real life is super common in fiction by that logic every ligthing dodging in game is wrong because the ligth isnt moving to 30000 KM/S
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Livinmeme said:
no? they made the same argument to debunk doom slayer getting downgraded to supersonic + they are
1.lying
2.dont really know what are they talking about
3. double standards like so many
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I wanna be clear that I support TF2 getting the upgrade they deserve man (Hell I'm even in there in the list), But that has been said and it somehow got nowhere.
 
Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E said:
I wanna be clear that I support TF2 getting the upgrade they deserve man (Hell I'm even in there in the list), But that has been said and it somehow got nowhere.
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okay who said it because that is a big big big double standard from their part. objects moving slower in game or cinematics is just common is literally why game characters arent mach 10 at max because the game cant make things go super fast and it would be so horrible to the balance
that is like saying sonic aint ftl because in the game he cant move faster that ligth
you know how much of a stupid argument is that
 
Livinmeme said:
okay who said it because that is a big big big double standard from their part. objects moving slower in game or cinematics is just common is literally why game characters arent mach 10 at max because the game cant make things go super fast and it would be so horrible to the balance
that is like saying sonic aint ftl because in the game he cant move faster that ligth
you know how much of a stupid argument is that
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Users "Abstractions", "DarkDragonMedeus", "Weekly Battles", others in there are the ones who argue against it, They gave it the thumbs down.

Talk to them but I assure its been attempted and its a resounding no.
 
Damn even most of the thread try to excuse things using game mechanics even when most of them are countered by engine limitations or just using brains
Rockets cant be 70 KMH they even wouldnt fly and dont say MUH scout can double jump and medic can revive people these things are obviouslly supernatural powers damn not rockets
 
Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E said:
Users "Abstractions", "DarkDragonMedeus", "Weekly Battles", others in there are the ones who argue against it, They gave it the thumbs down.
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Weekly battles is infamous for being always in TF2 downgrades and leaving when people starts countering their arguments
and doesnt help when the rest of the people start using in game to scale even going as far as excusing them with badly structured arguments
 
Also wouldnt the mercs would be supersonic to pyro being able to reflects rockets i mean it doesnt have to do with broken HU scaling so... yeah peak humans in movement speed should be fine but i am agaist peak human reaction. i guess is fine until we calc demoman being faster that a explosion and i guess scout is subsonic for being able to move to a speed close to a train?
 
Can somebody remind me what we need to do here please?
 
Okay. If you list the staff and knowledgeable members who helped out in this thread earlier, I can send notifications to them to help us out further.
 
Antvasima said:
If you list the staff and knowledgeable members who helped out in this thread earlier, I can send notifications to them to help us out further.
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^
 
I should probably apply this now.
Livinmeme said:
that reaction speed isnt getting downgraded only movement speed till we calc demoman escaping a explosion
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Reactions should go too if gameplay isn't canon, compression blasts wouldn't really be a thing and we know they can't really react to gunfire when Sniper was instantly killed by a gunman.

Are we fine with Athletic Human for most mercs and Peak Human for Scout and Spy?
 
Abstractions said:
I should probably apply this now.

Reactions should go too if gameplay isn't canon, compression blasts wouldn't really be a thing and we know they can't really react to gunfire when Sniper was instantly killed by a gunman.

Are we fine with Athletic Human for most mercs and Peak Human for Scout and Spy?
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no? that is just pure downgrade the hammers units would only affect the movement speed not the reaction speed Pyro reflecting rockets is still a thing and that is literally made to deflects rocket

I am fine with the movement speed downgrade but not the reacton speed because pyro still can reflect rockets Because is part of his kit and there is literally no reason to assume that he cant reflect rockets or he doesnt have compression blast specially when is a big part of the class

also bullets are faster that rockets and bullets can be faster that normal life bullets in fiction and most people only agreed it to only downgrade the movement sped
 
Livinmeme said:
no? that is just pure downgrade the hammers units would only affect the movement speed not the reaction speed Pyro reflecting rockets is still a thing and that is literally made to deflects rocket
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It will take too long to discuss here anyway so I will save that for another thread in particular, but to not leave you in the dark on things I'll tell you that essentially there's a scan from the comic that indicates the game is just dramatization of events, which would jeopardize how canon such things are.
 
Abstractions said:
It will take too long to discuss here anyway so I will save that for another thread in particular, but to not leave you in the dark on things I'll tell you that essentially there's a scan from the comic that indicates the game is just dramatization of events, which would jeopardize how canon such things are.
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Yep but that wouldnt really afect airblast because is a big part of the game also being a dramatization wouldnt make it not exist it because that would be a extremlly big generalization
 
Actually, most if not all current speed feats still really on treating aim dodging as actual reaction speed feats. But I agree on what Abstractons said for the most part.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, most if not all current speed feats still really on treating aim dodging as actual reaction speed feats. But I agree on what Abstractons said for the most part.
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even if it argument was "maybe is fake because is a dramatazition" even if there is no prove that it would affect the air blast

AKA: being a dramatization doesnt mean that some feat is just invalid specially is if a big part of some character kit and your argument get worse because the comics have show superhumans feats so.. if there is no prove that the air blast is not existent or invalid And that would be a extreme generalization
 
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Can somebody remind me what we need to evaluate here please?
 
We have a scenario where objects are moving at unknown speeds, but there is a contradiction with their relative speed.

The argument for downgrading is that rockets move significantly slower than they should. However, there is the equally viable argument that the mercs are moving and reacting significantly faster. If we disregard the possibility that the characters can have greater human reflexes, then all player characters will have human reflex because they are controlled by humans, even though this often contradicted.

Alternatively, we can disregard the contradiction all today. I feel like this may be the best course of action as there is other sources of canon not subject to this. However, if we do, then we should wait until that is calced. There is no reason to change it from one value that we don't accept as representive to a lower one we also don't accept.
 
Basically nearly every calculation in TF2 is assumed to be 100% linear which shouldn't be the case. It's based on assuming rockets move as fast as how rockets but everything exactly X times faster or slower is assumed to be X times faster or slower. And it was agreed to either assume more realistic options, such as assuming all pixels per second is more like real world. It makes no sense that throwing objects are Mach 5 when they're much slower than regular bullets or some assumptions about the gravity being 800 G's or something crazy like that. Which would mean all rockets are like a lot slower than real rockets, or nuke all speed calculations based on hammer units entirely and just stick to things happening in cutscenes and the like. Same with gravity it's better to use a method that ensures gravity is just normal earth level.

But either way, so far that would only put the TF2 cast at speeds ranging from Athletic human to Peakhuman.
 
That should only affect traveling speed tho because most people agreed in that and the reaction speed comes from another thing
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Basically nearly every calculation in TF2 is assumed to be 100% linear which shouldn't be the case. It's based on assuming rockets move as fast as how rockets but everything exactly X times faster or slower is assumed to be X times faster or slower. And it was agreed to either assume more realistic options, such as assuming all pixels per second is more like real world. It makes no sense that throwing objects are Mach 5 when they're much slower than regular bullets or some assumptions about the gravity being 800 G's or something crazy like that. Which would mean all rockets are like a lot slower than real rockets, or nuke all speed calculations based on hammer units entirely and just stick to things happening in cutscenes and the like. Same with gravity it's better to use a method that ensures gravity is just normal earth level.

But either way, so far that would only put the TF2 cast at speeds ranging from Athletic human to Peakhuman.
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Thank you. I am unforuntately not sure which solution that would be best to apply.

What do you think, and should we call more staff and knowledgeable members here?
 
Look, if you want a peak human rocket it would go about as far as my house in length... and my house ain't big
 
I'm sorry, but I just fail to see why we can't place their reactions to Subsonic at least.

Their travel speed, fair enough whatever. But Pyro deflecting arrows is literally an intended mechanic, otherwise there wouldn't be a kill icon specifically for reflected arrows.

By this logic, we have to downgrade every verse who's dodging feats are from gameplay rather than cutscenes.
 
Me, WeeklyBattles, Abstractions, Sir Ovens, and others already agree with what Abstractions said about Hammer Units. Also, I do not support rockets being that slow, so I think it's best to just compare rockets to real world counter parts but avoid downscaling character reactions and movement speeds from the rockets entirely.

Other feats such as repelling arrows are fine to use, but definitely not using the hammer unit scaling given how inconsistent it is.
 
Bullshit just because is a game mechanic doesnt make the feat invalid and this thread is making obvious how much the wiki downgrades TF2 to the point of downgrading reaction to peak human i mean what just because is a game mechanic doesnt make the feat of pyro reflecting rockets

Okay i will explain it Just because a feat is comes from a game mechanic doesnt Mean is invalid we only make it invalid if the game mechanic is In-Game wich clearly the refleting rockets isnt health example health is a In-Game mechanic air preasure it isnt and by that logic absulutly everything is not valid because is a game mechanic i know this wouldnt change anything because you are so biased that someone can say "A" and you will stil interpret that in a way to downgrade TF2 god the wiki can be stupid sometimes
 
Rtxthegamer said:
I'm sorry, but I just fail to see why we can't place their reactions to Subsonic at least.

Their travel speed, fair enough whatever. But Pyro deflecting arrows is literally an intended mechanic, otherwise there wouldn't be a kill icon specifically for reflected arrows.

By this logic, we have to downgrade every verse who's dodging feats are from gameplay rather than cutscenes.
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See a man that is using logic
 
Anyway i am gona say it again i am fine with movement speed downgrade to peak human maybe superhuman till we calc demoman escaping the explosion but i am against reaction speed downgrade
 
Livinmeme said:
Bullshit just because is a game mechanic doesnt make the feat invalid and this thread is making obvious how much the wiki downgrades TF2 to the point of downgrading reaction to peak human i mean what just because is a game mechanic doesnt make the feat of pyro reflecting rockets

Okay i will explain it Just because a feat is comes from a game mechanic doesnt Mean is invalid we only make it invalid if the game mechanic is In-Game wich clearly the refleting rockets isnt health example health is a In-Game mechanic air preasure it isnt and by that logic absulutly everything is not valid because is a game mechanic i know this wouldnt change anything because you are so biased that someone can say "A" and you will stil interpret that in a way to downgrade TF2 god the wiki can be stupid sometimes
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calm down. You're not helping anyone with that tone.
 
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