Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[Aguywhodoesthings]

All the mercs should at least have Subsonic reaction speeds due to Pyro being able react to and airblast away projectiles like arrows.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

All the mercs should at least have Subsonic reaction speeds due to Pyro being able react to and airblast away projectiles like arrows.

Oh yeah... But as Engie says, It will probably fall within their purview of their conundrums of philosophy, being that their weaponry do not fit our own, that is no Subsonic arrow in this case. XD

But that could work best.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Oh yeah... But as Engie says, It will probably fall within their purview of their conundrums of philosophy, being that their weaponry do not fit our own, that is no Subsonic arrow in this case. XD

But that could work best.

Why not just use good ol' pixel scaling and compare them to rockets?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Why not just use good ol' pixel scaling and compare them to rockets?

I mean... Probably? But we need to know if the missiles are as fast as ours to do so. And there doesn't seem to be a good explanation thus far other then the Tech they have are far out there from ours but even that's 'sus' no matter what apparently.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I mean... Probably? But we need to know if the missiles are as fast as ours to do so. And there doesn't seem to be a good explanation thus far other then the Tech they have are far out there from ours but even that's 'sus' no matter what apparently.

Well, occam's razort implies they're as fast. Plus air strike missles

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I agree with that point too; Bears rarely use their Superhuman reaction speeds aside from just running forward. Worst case scenario is to just have Unknown speed ratings.

Isn't it at some points in his life that he has reacted to these movements at one point?

Okay so if that's sus for you there other 'for now' speed feats, Heavy is an excelling boxer whom he scales to IRL ones that punch at 15 MPS. there are Arrows that should still be mentioned...

Well, occam's razort implies they're as fast. Plus air strike missiles

Ok... And this apparently.

 

[Abstractions]

Why not just use good ol' pixel scaling and compare them to rockets?

Because if you are doing this through gameplay it becomes unreliable.

All the mercs should at least have Subsonic reaction speeds due to Pyro being able react to and airblast away projectiles like arrows.

If you could find its usage outside of gameplay I may be inclined to agree, but as it stands gameplay is a bit unreliable. Also, the time it would take to react to it would still result in lower reaction speeds, as you need the player to have time to input the airblast and not get hit immediately.

Well, occam's razort implies they're as fast. Plus air strike missles

I already went over in the OP as to why these shouldn't be usable. They also don't really look like SAMs and still move at the same speed as other rockets in the game.

Isn't it at some points in his life that he has reacted to these movements at one point?

Okay so if that's sus for you there other 'for now' speed feats, Heavy is an excelling boxer whom he scales to IRL ones that punch at 15 MPS. there are Arrows that should still be mentioned...

You can react to something's movements and not be immediately comparable, if a bear charges at you, you still have plenty of time to notice it is doing so, you just won't outrun it at all.

Could you show me where this is stated? Heavy uses boxing gloves as melee weapons but that doesn't automatically equate to punching at the speed of pro boxers.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Because if you are doing this through gameplay it becomes unreliable.


If you could find its usage outside of gameplay I may be inclined to agree, but as it stands gameplay is a bit unreliable. Also, the time it would take to react to it would still result in lower reaction speeds, as you need the player to have time to input the airblast and not get hit immediately.


I already went over in the OP as to why these shouldn't be usable. They also don't really look like SAMs and still move at the same speed as other rockets in the game.


You can react to something's movements and not be immediately comparable, if a bear charges at you, you still have plenty of time to notice it is doing so, you just won't outrun it at all.

Could you show me where this is stated? Heavy uses boxing gloves as melee weapons but that doesn't automatically equate to punching at the speed of pro boxers.

Why is it unreliable for gameplay?

 

[Abstractions]

Why is it unreliable for gameplay?

Can't use gameplay for that as it follows strictly by hammer units.

Gameplay has their speeds determined by the HUs, and in that game a primitive bow and arrow travels much faster than the rockets you want to scale to, making the speeds in-game unreliable.

What you are asking us to do is discount the fact that arrows being faster as game mechanics, denying the entire speed system put in place for the game, yet you want us to try to keep the ratings from the game with the unreliable speeds. Something like that just doesn't sit right.

This is why I already proposed calculating Scout's train feat and Spy stabbing the guy, those are solid speed feats that don't directly come from gameplay.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Gameplay has their speeds determined by the HUs, and in that game a primitive bow and arrow travels much faster than the rockets you want to scale to, making the speeds in-game unreliable.

What you are asking us to do is discount the fact that arrows being faster as game mechanics, denying the entire speed system put in place for the game, yet you want us to try to keep the ratings from the game with the unreliable speeds. Something like that just doesn't sit right.

This is why I already proposed calculating Scout's train feat and Spy stabbing the guy, those are solid speed feats that don't directly come from gameplay.

Well pretty much. And Demo's tandem with explosion feat is cinematic introduction based, that also should be brought up.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Gameplay has their speeds determined by the HUs, and in that game a primitive bow and arrow travels much faster than the rockets you want to scale to, making the speeds in-game unreliable.

What you are asking us to do is discount the fact that arrows being faster as game mechanics, denying the entire speed system put in place for the game, yet you want us to try to keep the ratings from the game with the unreliable speeds. Something like that just doesn't sit right.

This is why I already proposed calculating Scout's train feat and Spy stabbing the guy, those are solid speed feats that don't directly come from gameplay.

HUs are only used to measure speed in game. Base Sonic's speed for instance also comes from dodging projectiles, yet unleashed distance meter contradicts it. We still should use FTL in Sonic's case tho, the same is the TF2

 

[Abstractions]

HUs are only used to measure speed in game. Base Sonic's speed for instance also comes from dodging projectiles, yet unleashed distance meter contradicts it. We still should use FTL in Sonic's case tho, the same is the TF2

The speed calculations rely on the units of measurement put in place for the game, the game projectiles follow strictly by these speeds so you can't really have one without the other here.

Two completely different styles of games, two completely different types of characters, two completely different feats. TF2 is the one that has found itself to be unreliable, not Sonic. What happens there does not matter here.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The speed calculations rely on the units of measurement put in place for the game, the game projectiles follow strictly by these speeds so you can't really have one without the other here.

Two completely different styles of games, two completely different types of characters, two completely different feats. TF2 is the one that has found itself to be unreliable, not Sonic. What happens there does not matter here.

Well, rockets simply cannot move at 76 km/h, they won't be able to fly then

 

[Abstractions]

Well, rockets simply cannot move at 76 km/h, they won't be able to fly then

Scout can jump once in mid-air, Medic can revive people by dumping incompatible blood back into people, things that are physically impossible. It's not out of the realm of reason for TF2 to break out from the norm in this way.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Scout can jump once in mid-air, Medic can revive people by dumping incompatible blood back into people, things that are physically impossible. It's not out of the realm of reason for TF2 to break out from the norm in this way.

If one thing is unrealistic, we don't assume another thing is automatically unrealistic.

 

[Abstractions]

If one thing is unrealistic, we don't assume another thing is automatically unrealistic.

Except that isn't even an assumption we have to make, hammer units tell us directly that it doesn't have to be that fast.

These speeds are ingrained into gameplay, and if you want to disregard them you'll just have to disregard the gameplay itself when finding something to replace it.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Except that isn't even an assumption we have to make, hammer units tell us directly that it doesn't have to be that fast.

These speeds are ingrained into gameplay, and if you want to disregard them you'll just have to disregard the gameplay itself when finding something to replace it.

I guess that's fair

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions so far here, and has what was accepted been applied yet?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not think anything was updated, but staff agreed with what Abstractions has been saying that we shouldn't be using the in game pixels or frames to assume all projectiles move at a linear pacing. Ovens put it that either we treat them more realistically; in that case a hammer unit is only 1.9 cm meaning rocket launchers being 1100 hu/s translates to 21 m/s. Which honestly sounds pathetic. Or we just don't use them at all and instead stick to feats exclusively used in cutscenes and what not.

But since we obviously shouldn't use "Sonic is only 10 m/s" levels of lowballing via game mechanics, I believe it's best to go off the latter. Which so far, the feats are still fairly unimpressive but I think Scout has some consistent Superhuman speed feats. It's agreed that no one is a bullet timer outside of Scout's Bonk powerup though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I trust the senses of judgement of you and the rest of our staff.

 

[Livinmeme]

Not really? The creators of the series outright said the gameplay is canon

weekly just because the gameplay is canon doesnt make absulutly everything canon

 

[Livinmeme]

yeah no i dont agree to this

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

weekly just because the gameplay is canon doesn't make absolutely everything canon

Okay. I trust the senses of judgement of you and the rest of our staff.

OK no no no NO hang on... Come to think of it there were exceptions yes! like this other verse had a calc that was in-game and there seemed to be no drawbacks. HELL EVEN FORTNITE out of all things... had calc's in game yet nobody bitched about that 9-A rating, Another Valve character Gordon Freeman has in game demonstrations and/or calc's as just few examples mind you, but m'kay "outlier" it seems... despite those being in game, No disrespect its starts to feel a bit hypocritical.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E um, you posted that comment twice and in this example it has nothing to do with speed but durability. This thread is for speed while the other one was AP/durability.

Also, I believe Abstractions was going to take care of them iirc.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

So bump i guess, sorry if this is late
anyways i calced spy killing a dude

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is this important enough for us to ask a few calc group members to take a look at it?

 

[Livinmeme]

pretty sure that it got rejected because using in game to scale speed is a horrible idea
no suprise from the wiki that uses health mechanic to downgrade in a verse but is not used in other verse that double standars

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

pretty sure that it got rejected because using in game to scale speed is a horrible idea
no suprise from the wiki that uses health mechanic to downgrade in a verse but is not used in other verse that double standars

I mean yeah, But thus we are literally getting Peak Human/Superhuman Mercs, man... Surely somewhere they are much quicker then this like does anyone recall (Aside Demo supposedly moving in tandem with his explosives in the cinematics) Them dodging fast projectiles before?

 

[Livinmeme]

I mean yeah, But thus we are literally getting Peak Human/Superhuman Mercs, man... Surely somewhere they are much quicker then this like does anyone recall (Aside Demo supposedly moving in tandem with his explosives in the cinematics) Them dodging fast projectiles before?

No? pretty sure it got rejected anyway and i am feeling some big biased here

 

[TheGatememer]

really don't see why we can't use Pyro reflecting arrows/crossbow shots as a reaction feat. By that logic, any game character you control that dodges an attack can't be faster than subsonic.

 

[Livinmeme]

also scouts dodging bullets from sentry,demoman escaping from explosions, sniper dodging bullets?
in the worst cases escenario if the people doesnt go in full biased mode we will have peak to superhuman speed movement to hypersonic and just supersonic to hypersonic in reaction

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

No? pretty sure it got rejected anyway and i am feeling some big biased here

Um... No it hasn't??

Well at least not yet anyway, I was actually referring to the comic of Spy killing the big dude faster then Scout could initially react. And all I'm saying is that even in canon or cinematics there could be something we missed.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

really don't see why we can't use Pyro reflecting arrows/crossbow shots as a reaction feat. By that logic, any game character you control that dodges an attack can't be faster than subsonic.

Missiles are literally labelled as 40 MPH which is rather pathetically slow for a Mach based weapon, but yeah, and In-Game stuff is a no-no now.

 

[Livinmeme]

anyway i disagree with everything here saying that rockets are superhuman becasue they are slower that arrows is so stupid for several reasons
1. the mercs are superhuman so it makes sense that the arrows and things are faster that rockets
2. arrows are protrayed as being far far far faster that real arrows
3. use your brain game limitations, game balancing, rockets being super broken

 

[Livinmeme]

Missiles are literally labelled as 40 MPH which is rather pathetically slow for a Mach based weapon, but yeah, and In-Game stuff is a no-no now.

i think you dont understand
using in-game as scaling to superficial things is fine like pyro being able to reflects rockets is supersonic+ or atleast transonic is fine
but saying that rockets are 40 MPH in a game where technology is far far far more avanced that real one is so pathetic of a argument

 

[Livinmeme]

kinda? min 0:54 it maybe aim donging but yeah

 

[TheGatememer]

Sniper didn't really dodge the bullets. They would've missed him either way.

 

[Livinmeme]

also scout moving somewhere the speed of a train is subsonic and dont say MUH the train is slow because that is from the limitations of SFM and a thing moving slower that in real life is super common in fiction by that logic every ligthing dodging in game is wrong because the ligth isnt moving to 30000 KM/S

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

using in-game as scaling to superficial things is fine like pyro being able to reflects rockets is supersonic+ or atleast transonic is fine
but saying that rockets are 40 MPH in a game where technology is far far far more avanced that real one is so pathetic of a argument

I literally stated the same thing but this is said to be wrong. More so if we rely on HU stuff.

 

[Livinmeme]

I literally stated the same thing but this is said to be wrong. More so if we rely on HU stuff.

no? they made the same argument to debunk doom slayer getting downgraded to supersonic + they are
1.lying
2.dont really know what are they talking about
3. double standards like so many