Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[Abstractions]

Introduction

Hammer units are the unit of measurement used in Source Engine games by Valve, they are present currently on profiles for Counter-Strike and Team Fortress.

Currently, it is accepted on pages that everyone in Team Fortress is Subsonic for comparing the rockets of Soldier to that of an RPG-7 and how they are relative to the mercenaries in terms of movement. It has been like this for years and only until recently when someone attempted to upgrade them once more, just with a different weapon to scale.

This is the point where I had started to take notice of this, and how much of a problem it actually is.

My Issues with the Scaling

Lack of Proper Justification

As mentioned above, hammer units are their own unit of measurement, 1 HU is the equivalent of 1.905 cm. As such, anything in terms of movement can be scaled with them through HU/s, and this is how the game itself does this, so why the need to make the comparison when the information is laid out in front of us?

Using the Projectiles page, we can confirm that Soldier's rockets move at 1100 HU/s, this translates to 20.955 m/s or Superhuman in terms of speed. This is much lower than what we currently estimate them to be, but what exactly is the issue with that? Is it because it doesn't strike us as realistic? What are the motivations behind the comparison to something higher when they don't remotely look the same?

Arbitrary and Inconsistent

The choice of scaling from Soldier's rockets doesn't have any real logical decision behind it, and the result hinges entirely on what side of the bed the person woke up on, they will never line up with the results of another calculation made the same way using the same measurements, and this can be demonstrated by examining the two calculations above and my example here:

Say we chose to use the Huntsman for scaling instead of Soldier's rockets:

Using the bow page on the wiki, we can see that a standard recursive bow can reach speeds of 225 FPS or 68.58 meters a second.

The Huntsman's projectiles travel at 1812.1 HU/s uncharged to 2600 HU/s charged, the average Scout moves at 400 HU/s

Uncharged - 400/1812.1 = 0.2207 | 65.58*0.2207 = 15.135606 m/s, Superhuman
Charged - 400/2600 = 0.1538 | 65.58*0.1538 = 10.547604 m/s, Peak Human

Compare this to the results above, we have the actual HU/s telling us Scout is 7.62 m/s or Average Human, we have different calculations that use these same units and compare them to actual equipment in the real world, one is Subsonic, another is Transonic. The only thing they all have in common is that they are inconsistent with one another.

This is ultimately something that could be present in more online multiplayer shooters where projectiles are a common sight, so I don't think it's a problem strictly with TF2, but rather using given speed values in a game and attempting to convert that to vague real world counterparts. It creates inconsistent speed ratings that are always subject to change based on what weapon you want to try and scale from.

If we are unwilling to use the hammer units by themselves, they shouldn't be used at all and speed feats need to be gathered in other ways, such as from other media like Meet the Scout or the comics.

 

[Armorchompy]

Generally, I think it's a big issue when people are scaled off rocket projectiles, yet the bullets in the same gameplay are usually hitscan. I agree with the removal of the current speed rating... though obviously the Scout shouldn't be Average Human when he's clearly at the very least Peak Human.

 

[Overlord775]

this is all LITTERALLY just game mechanics, claiming any kind of rocket travels at the speed of an atlete is utter nonsense

 

[Abstractions]

this is all LITTERALLY just game mechanics, claiming a rocket travels at the speed of an atlete is utter nonsense

If your problem is with the unit of measurement the calculations must be discarded then because that is what's being used in them.

 

[The_Impress]

 

[Overlord775]

If your problem is with the unit of measurement the calculations must be discarded then because that is what's being used in them.

remove the hammer units then, it's vastly more prefferable than assuming the completly farfetched option that a rocket launcher from a humanity with tech vastly superior to our own has human speed weapons or that a trained anti-terrorist soldier moves at below avarage human speed

 

[Abstractions]

remove the hammer units then, it's vastly more prefferable than assuming the completly farfetched option that a rocket launcher from a humanity with tech vastly superior to our own has atlete speed weapons or that a trained anti-terorist soldier moves at below avarage human speed

You are blowing it a bit out of proportion, the rockets move at 20.955 m/s according to the units in game, which is Superhuman.

You also are arguing from disbelief here, not all equipment in the universe is vastly superior to our own, case in point is the Huntsman, which is a primitive recursive bow.

And what is wrong with the soldier moving at these speeds? They are wearing heavy equipment, are they not?

It seems that your problem is that you cannot believe the result they produce and therefore they must be thrown away, which is fine, but that means the current speeds have to go as well.

 

[Overlord775]

You are blowing it a bit out of proportion, the rockets move at 20.955 m/s according to the units in game, which is Superhuman.

For comparation, EVEN slingshots shoot faster than that, at that speed it wouldn't be able to fly for over 2 seconds before dropping to the ground

You also are arguing from disbelief here, not all equipment in the universe is vastly superior to our own, case in point is the Huntsman, which is a primitive recursive bow.

and you are makig a red haring

Sniper using a bow sometimes doesn't make the tech level of the verse any less high, just as much as Scout using a fish as a weapon.

There's absolutely no reason that Soldier's rocket launchers shouldn't be comperable to IRL ones

And what is wrong with the soldier moving at these speeds? They are wearing heavy equipment, are they not?

You are saying that goddamn trained soldiers are moving as fast a crippled man, IT LITTERALLY MAKES NO SENSE

soliders are trained to move just fine in heavy equipment, so that litterally doesn't matter

besides, their equipment is not even really heavy

It seems that your problem is that you cannot believe the result they produce and therefore they must be thrown away, which is fine, but that means the current speeds have to go as well.

No, the problem is that what are you are trying to implement is litterally game mechanics timeframe, which we don't allow on the wiki PERIOD, as it litterally make no sense in any shape or form and even causes logical physics problems

 

[Abstractions]

at that speed it wouldn't even be able to fly for over 2 seconds

You were just arguing that they were more technologically advanced, so why couldn't it in this case?

and you are makig a red haring

Sniper using a bow sometimes doesn't make the tech level of the verse any less high, just as much as Scout using a fish as a weapon.

There's absolutely no reason that Soldier's rocket launchers shouldn't be comperable to IRL ones

That's not a red herring, that's displaying to you that the very rockets you claim are technologically superior in all aspects are vastly slower than arrows based on the units in the game, (1100 HU/s vs. 1812.1 HU/s). This is what's called contradicting your claim with evidence.

Just because you find that hard to believe doesn't mean it can't be the case.

No, the problem is that what are you are trying to implement is litterally game mechanics timeframe, which we don't allow on the wiki PERIOD, as it litterally make no sense in any shape or form and even causes logical physics problems

I have done no such thing, it is what is currently on the profiles, what you are doing is agreeing with me that the current speeds should be removed then.

 

[Overlord775]

You were just arguing that they were more technologically advanced, so why couldn't it in this case?

because it isn't what we see in game, rockets don't fall out the air after traveling 2 meters

That's not a red herring, that's displaying to you that the very rockets you claim is technologically superior in all aspects are vastly slower than arrows based on the units in the game, (1100 HU/s vs. 1812.1 HU/s). This is what's called contradicting your claim with evidence.

No, that's not evidence, that's game mechanics

You are assuming that a bow capable of instakilling steel robots cannot be fast, which is just not how fiction works

just as much as we don't assume that Doom rockets move at human speed because Doomguy can outrun them or how we don't assume that any shooter games without hitscans has superhuman speed bullets, we must not assume the TF2 weapons are super slow because of in-game timeframe

Just because you find that hard to believe doesn't mean it can't be the case.

Use goddamn basic LOGIC, rockets travel at rocket speed, not the speed of a dog

When something about a game just doesn't make any logical sense for the setting it's just game mechanics

I have done no such thing, it is what is currently on the profiles, what you are doing is agreeing with me that the current speeds should be removed then.

Remove all the things that use hammer units and timeframe, yeah

though, the mercenaries would still have the speed because you know, they can dodge rockets

 

[Abstractions]

because it isn't what we see in game, rockets don't fall out the air after traveling 2 meters

So are they or are they not technologically superior?

No, that's not evidence, that's game mechanics

If you have a problem with clearly defined travel speeds within the game, then remove MvM upgrades because they are equally game mechanics.

just as much as we don't assume that Doom rockets move at human speed because doomguy can outrun them or that any shooter games without hitscans don't have superhuman speed bullets

Whataboutism.

You are assuming that a bow capable of instakilling steel robots cannot be fast, which is just not how fiction works

Are you denying that the Huntsman is not a primitive bow and arrow like its publicity blurb states? That's just not an argument.

Use goddamn basic LOGIC, rockets travel at rocket speed, no matter what

It's a different universe, rockets can travel at whatever speeds Valve wants them to. This is also not an argument.

Remove all the things that use hammer units and timeframe, yeah

though, the mercenaries would still have the speed because you know, they can dodge rockets

If this is present within the game then it's simply not usable, you want to deny hammer units but then use the game that has them in place. Your speed must come from a different source, as stated in the OP.

Also, aim dodging is a concept. Characters don't have to scale to rockets just to move out of its line of fire.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Abstractions has really hammered the nail in the thread with this!

 

[Tllmbrg]

You could say Abstraction has hammered the point down

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think the solution is pretty straightforward. I don't trust adjustable parameters in multiplayer games as a means to calc feats unless gameplay and lore canonically tie in like in Destiny. As such, we should just scrap hammer units entirely and find speed feats from cinematics.

Just to be clear, rocket speed in-game is an adjustable parameter as well. So if you're using in-game speed to judge the speed of rockets and the characters, I strongly advise against it.

 

[AKM sama]

Dammit Ovens you ninja'd me. This is the second time I have been ninja'd in the span of 5 minutes. But yeah, I agree with the OP. The HU values are clearly inconsistent so they obviously shouldn't be used. Speed feats should be found from other sources.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This thread’s a real banger

 

[Overlord775]

So are they or are they not technologically superior?

That isn't even remotly what i'm saying, stop missinterpreting my comments

If you have a problem with clearly defined travel speeds within the game, then remove MvM upgrades because they are equally game mechanics.

MvM is offcially canon, so no, they aren't game mechanics

Whataboutism.

No, just wiki standards

Are you denying that the Huntsman is not a primitive bow and arrow like its publicity blurb states? That's just not an argument.

Have you even read the description ?

"Now, hold on," you keep saying. "Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?"
"Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."

It says that bows AREN'T primitive and harmless

It's a different universe, rockets can travel at whatever speeds Valve wants them to. This is also not an argument.

Ocram's Razor

Assuming that gravity works differently is away bigger assumption that the timeframe is game mechanics

If this is present within the game then it's simply not usable, you want to deny hammer units but then use the game that has them in place. Your speed must come from a different source, as stated in the OP.

You do realize that the comics and animated shorts exists, right ?

Also, aim dodging is a concept. Characters don't have to scale to rockets just to move out of its line of fire.

that only applies if the character dodges before the projectiles is fired

 

[Abstractions]

That isn't even remotly what i'm saying, stop missinterpreting my comments

No, I asked the question again because you failed to answer, so answer it. Yes or no?

MvM is offcially canon, so no, they aren't game mechanics

He says, while denouncing the speed values in the very same game MvM is implemented in.

Have you even read the description ?

"Now, hold on," you keep saying. "Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?"
"Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."

It says that bows AREN'T primitive and harmless

Of course I have read the description, but how could that possibly be what you gather from that?

The person asks the question, in which the response is to ask something from the prehistoric period which is an impossibility. Followed with them telling us cavemen used them.

This is implying that while yes, it is primitive, it is still lethal. Not that it isn't primitive.

Ocram's Razor

Assuming that gravity works differently is away bigger assumption that the timeframe is game mechanics

Actively denying stated speeds in favor of assuming something higher is a bigger assumption? I'm making no assumption and using what's right in front of us.

You do realize that the comics and animated shorts exists, right ?

I humbly direct you to the OP, which had you read you would know I recommended their usage because gameplay needs to be discarded.

that only applies if the character dodges before the projectiles is fired

Which I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding outside of gameplay. Because gameplay is inadmissible in this fashion when the values discarded are well and present within it.

 

[Abstractions]

Like it was mentioned in the upgrade blog, it's recommended that someone try to calculate Scout moving in front of the train to get their movement speed, the other mercenaries can downscale from this.

In regards to reactions, I don't know how fast we think they are, but Supersonic+ doesn't make much sense because Sniper was easily shot dead by light fire in the comics.

 

[Abstractions]

No, just wiki standards

Side note, Doomguy just lost this reasoning for his rating because it's exploiting a bug!

 

[AKM sama]

Assuming that gravity works differently is away bigger assumption that the timeframe is game mechanics

Not that this point is of any major relevance here, but if the verse is technologically advanced, surely the tech could be such that it maintains a speed while also countering the gravity. How the rocket uses its propulsion system according to the position and rotation sensors can explain this. Gravity doesn't have to work differently. Useless nitpick, I know.

 

[Overlord775]

No, I asked the question again because you failed to answer, so answer it. Yes or no?

Yes, they are clearly far past of our tech level, which is clear if you know anything of the lore

He says, while denouncing the speed values in the very same game MvM is implemented in.

Just because one aspect of a game is game mechanics it doesn't mean everything of the game is game mechanics

Of course I have read the description, but how could that possibly be what you gather from that?

The person asks the question, in which the response is to ask something from the prehistoric period which is an impossibility. Followed with them telling us cavemen used them.

This is implying that while yes, it is primitive, it is still lethal. Not that it isn't primitive.

This is TF2, it's not an imposibility, it's just another day

also no, the question is "aren't bows primivitive and harmless ?" which the responce is a no as a whole

Actively denying stated speeds in favor of assuming something higher is a bigger assumption? I'm making no assumption and using what's right in front of us.

There's no stated speed, you are just using gameplay timeframe, which is blatantly wrong

I humbly direct you to the OP, which had you read you would know I recommended their usage because gameplay needs to be discarded.


Which I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding outside of gameplay.

k

Because gameplay is inadmissible in this fashion when the values discarded are well and present within it.

game mechanics say no


@AKM sama

That could be the case, but we don't see any upwards propulsion to counter gravity

 

[AKM sama]

also no, the question is "aren't bows primivitive and harmless ?" which the responce is a no as a whole

This part. No, the response isn't no. The response is more like "sure they are primitive but not harmless, still effective". The statement clearly says that they were used in primitive times but they were still useful.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The augment here is pretty screwy. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either get rid of all game mechanics, or you keep all game mechanics. If there's no canon reason why gameplay is directly linked to lore, don't use it for feats. As for the whole technology argument, as a rule of thumb we should always stray away from direct scaling to the real world unless the in-canon world is similar to ours (Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc.). Under no circumstances would TF2 fit under our purviews a normal world. Their weapons are hilariously cartoony and don't even function like real world weapons (Scout and Sniper infinitely cocking their weapons without loading new bullets, Soldier frontloading 4 rockets into a launcher and shooting them one at a time, Heavy's minigun never needing to be reloaded, etc.). As such, they should under no circumstances scale to real world weapons.

 

[Torlikoff]

Because I was asked on discord, here are two probably noteworthy feats.
In this scene the soldier runs from the council table and strangles scout before anyone (including the bailiff) can do anything. Probably just above average human but it's something.

In this scene, the spy stands up, stabs a man, sits back down, and continues eating all while not missing a beat in his conversation. We can see that he definitely stood up in the bottom right image. Likely superhuman. Also HU scaling definitely needs to go.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

We already talkd about this a lot so i'll just say i agree with th op

 

[Jaften]

I agree with the OP, the current TF2 speed scaling is wack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Someone should calculated the speed Scout runs compared to the train and rocket in meet the Scout also.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Someone should calculated the speed Scout runs compared to the train and rocket in meet the Scout also.

The train was moving super slow so thats not likely to yield anything good, plus rockets have shown to be able to catch up to scout rathr easily in other cinematics

 

[Jaften]

I don't think the rockets should be used at all, they don't appear to match up with real world rockets. They're consistently slow when bullets are depicted as basically hitscan, even in the cinematics.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I agree on sentiments, it is still worth taking a look. And yeah, bullets are seen as undodgable outside of Bonk. But speaking of Bonk...

 

[Jaften]

While I agree on sentiments, it is still worth taking a look. And yeah, bullets are seen as undodgable outside of Bonk. But speaking of Bonk...

Yeah I'm not sure what to do with Bonk. Not gonna lie, the current justification we use for Bonk's speed feels like "Genji's Deflect can block all the bullets from six firing-mode Bastions at once" all over again. Do we have cinematic useage of Bonk? That would be much better than relying on the gameplay version, which is literally just selective intangibility rather than pure speed.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah I'm not sure what to do with Bonk. Not gonna lie, the current justification we use for Bonk's speed feels like "Genji's Deflect can block all the bullets from six firing-mode Bastions at once" all over again. Do we have cinematic useage of Bonk? That would be much better than relying on the gameplay version, which is literally just selective intangibility rather than pure speed.

thing is Genji has canonically used Deflect to deflect stuff like that in cinematics

 

[Jaften]

thing is Genji has canonically used Deflect to deflect stuff like that in cinematics

Yeah but extrapolating that to six Bastions, just because the game allows you to block all oncoming fire while Deflect is active, is where it becomes game mechanics I think.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah but extrapolating that to six Bastions, just because the game allows you to block all oncoming fire while Deflect is active, is where it becomes game mechanics I think.

It does yeah but we dont use that to scale and havent for years, but Genji has deflected Bastion shots as well as stuff like Hanzo's scatter arrow in-canon in cinematics

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Not to derail too much but when has Genji ever deflected a Bastion in-canon?

As for Bonk, we should just treat it as an arbitrary speed amp that allows Scout to dodge projectiles that would have otherwise caught up to him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not to derail too much but when has Genji ever deflected a Bastion?

During Storm Rising

Also he deflicted the miniguns of a heavy assault unit during Retribution

 

[TheGatememer]

I agree with removing the rating

 

[Abstractions]

During Storm Rising

Also he deflicted the miniguns of a heavy assault unit during Retribution

Storm Rising didn't have Bastions but more Heavy Assaults.

But Overwatch is irrelevant right now and we should focus on Team Fortress.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Storm Rising didn't have Bastions but more Heavy Assaults.

But Overwatch is irrelevant right now and we should focus on Team Fortress.

Thats whati was referring to lol but yeah lets stay on topic