Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[Aguywhodoesthings]

could it maybe work as a Possibly rating?

 

[Abstractions]

wow there is absulutly no prove that he was gona do that and just because he is good at a job doesnt mean he calculated that

So your strange solution to this is:

"He's a good Demoman because he can outrun his own explosions rather than the skill and understanding of explosives he's developed over the course of his life."

Does this not sound completely strange and ridiculous to you at all?

Also he wasnt moving exactly at the tandem of explosions thanks to the limits of SFM like it would requiere a absurd amount of job to make a character walks exactly at the same time the explosions were moving the point of the scene is that he was escaping from the explosions.

You're blaming it on the limitations of the system rather than the obvious conclusion that he can't move as fast as the explosives.

Again, look at there he jumps and just go frame by frame. You'll see his leg and explosion moving in tandem

They do not, by the time he's jumped the explosion has already traveled outward farther than he has, and mid-jump you can clearly see it begin to dissipate.

I don't know how you can argue the consistency of this at all when I compiled it for you frame by frame.

if my reasons dont convent you then THE LITERAL SCRIPT WILL no offense

Nowhere here does it state he moves faster than the explosion, just that he narrowly escapes it, which almost frames it as if he can't move faster than them because it was, again, a narrow escape.

Yep but that is speculation so the feat is valid

There is no feat, only your unexplainable obsession with the intangible, and I'm failing to grasp as to why you are clinging to this when I had to spoon-feed the scene directly to you.

could it maybe work as a Possibly rating?

Why would we humor a possibly rating for something that's clearly not the case?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I tried to update the spy calc a bit
i added the distance from hand to elbow to the total distance because i thought to properly stab somebody Spy would have to move at least that much
does that make sense or not really?

 

[Livinmeme]

This is gona be a large one but a really really large

"He's a good Demoman because he can outrun his own explosions rather than the skill and understanding of explosives he's developed over the course of his life."

dont straw man me i never said that he was a bad demoman (pun intended) i said that it was ridiculous that he know where the explosion was going to explode in the exact moment

You're blaming it on the limitations of the system rather than the obvious conclusion that he can't move as fast as the explosives.

No? the engine has his limit specially when it was not even in his final update at the time and it was pretty recent i am saying that he obviously escaped the explosions so he was moving faster that the explosions and why he cant move faster that the explosives? the gameplay no because that would be broke AF and would defeat soldier and demo class if the other classes could move faster that the explosions

hey do not, by the time he's jumped the explosion has already traveled outward farther than he has, and mid-jump you can clearly see it begin to dissipate.

oh okay then he outspeed the explosion maybe?

I don't know how you can argue the consistency of this at all when I compiled it for you frame by frame.

umm no? you were expecting to be perfectly close to the explosion at this point you are nitpicking and also how that even works if he is outrange of the explosion it doesnt scale to him (even if he would need to be faster that the explosion to escape it) and if he is inside he is slower that the explosion you are playing midground so whatever i say is incorrect.

Nowhere here does it state he moves faster than the explosion, just that he narrowly escapes it, which almost frames it as if he can't move faster than them because it was, again, a narrow escape.

You dont need to be inside the explosion or super close to the explosion you need to be atleast sinced to the explosion also isnt being narrowly escaped from the explosions enough? also it literally says he escaped from the explosions and it doesnt need to said that he was faster that the explosion

There is no feat, only your unexplainable obsession with the intangible, and I'm failing to grasp as to why you are clinging to this when I had to spoon-feed the scene directly to you.

1. that tone of agresivity
2. isnt like i give examples or anything or i explain how your arguments were using the engine limitations
PD: when i am refering using engine limitations i am refering that the scene obviously tried to protayed as demoman escapling from a huge explosions wich couldnt be done because it would look weird of how the explosive was clipping from the building without any damage

Why would we humor a possibly rating for something that's clearly not the case?

Because i debunked the entire argument of your? or maybe because is clearly that demoman was faster that the explosions and you are nitpicking to absurd levels to the point if demoman was 0.0001 away from the explosions everyone thinks that it would be wrong.

Also why you think he needs to be inside or close to the explosions? there are severals more points to determinite how the feat happens

anyway that should be do in another thread and not in this thread and i wouldnt be respoding today because i am sincerlly tired of people using mental gymnastics to excuse SOMETHING THE SCRIPTS SAY

AKA: he escaped it and you dont need to be inside the explosions to be valid and even the scripts say that he escaped

 

[DMUA]

i am sincerlly tired of people using mental gymnastics

I'm going to have to throw this back at you.

What we're assuming is that when someone runs down a hallway with explosions going off behind them intermittently, it probably isn't them moving at hypersonic speeds.

What you're assuming is that actually because the script says something that might suggest that he is outrunning the blasts obviously all of the frame by frame information that has been gathered is obviously invalidated and he absolutely must be moving at Hypersonic speeds, and that the whole scene is showing his sheer speed instead of his skills as a demolitions expert, in spite of a direct statement alluding to said fact directly after he does the run.

I don't even want to address the rest of it. Know that I absolutely disagree and I doubt I'll be changing my stance, unless something actually compelling is brought to light.

 

[Livinmeme]

I'm going to have to throw this back at you.

What we're assuming is that when someone runs down a hallway with explosions going off behind them intermittently, it probably isn't them moving at hypersonic speeds.

What you're assuming is that actually because the script says something that might suggest that he is outrunning the blasts obviously all of the frame by frame information that has been gathered is obviously invalidated and he absolutely must be moving at Hypersonic speeds, and that the whole scene is showing his sheer speed instead of his skills as a demolitions expert, in spite of a direct statement alluding to said fact directly after he does the run.

I don't even want to address the rest of it. Know that I absolutely disagree and I doubt I'll be changing my stance, unless something actually compelling is brought to light.

Okay i am tired (in both senses) so my response is probally gona be bad and short so i will explain you

Just because he says he is a good demoman doesnt make the sense debunked even after i explained it you probally didnt read it

Being skilled at a job doesnt make that you could know where the explosions gona come out at the exact time without getting hurt and probally being drunk without seing and he was you know DRUNK how can we know than that statement is correct if he was drunk + emotional at that moment or you implying that demoman can know where explosions gona come out without seeing?

the script says that he barelly escaped the explosions, the scene context also indicate that and your point get debunked specially when you need to be in sinc with the explosions who he was clearly doing

also dont is obvious that even if i brougth gabe newell saying that demoman escaped the explosions by being faster and he is faster that the explosions

He was close enough to be a valid feat and this wouldnt change no no opinion so this is pretty much useless yey

pd: moving with the blast is apperently a valid feat so yey

 

[Livinmeme]

Also most arguments of demoman not being in range of the explosions get nulled because he was in sinc with the explosions and that was clearly the scene was trying to represent

 

[Abstractions]

dont straw man me i never said that he was a bad demoman (pun intended) i said that it was ridiculous that he know where the explosion was going to explode in the exact moment

I never claimed you said he was a bad Demoman, if he was, he wouldn't be sitting there discussing it with us, now would he?

You denounced my claim by saying he wasn't good enough at his job to calculate for that, in which in context to the scene would mean he'd have to outrun the explosions to be a good Demoman, otherwise he wouldn't be alive to talk about it. All I did was take what you are pushing and present it to you.

No? the engine has his limit specially when it was not even in his final update at the time and it was pretty recent i am saying that he obviously escaped the explosions so he was moving faster that the explosions and why he cant move faster that the explosives? the gameplay no because that would be broke AF and would defeat soldier and demo class if the other classes could move faster that the explosions

Again, the engine limitations vs. the logical conclusion.

umm no? you were expecting to be perfectly close to the explosion at this point you are nitpicking and also how that even works if he is outrange of the explosion it doesnt scale to him (even if he would need to be faster that the explosion to escape it) and if he is inside he is slower that the explosion you are playing midground so whatever i say is incorrect.

I showed you the explosions going off with little movement on his part, they could have filled the corridor and he would have hardly moved at all.

1. that tone of agresivity
2. isnt like i give examples or anything or i explain how your arguments were using the engine limitations
PD: when i am refering using engine limitations i am refering that the scene obviously tried to protayed as demoman escapling from a huge explosions wich couldnt be done because it would look weird of how the explosive was clipping from the building without any damage

I am not being aggressive with you, I'm painting the picture for you as objectively as possible and you continuously deny what's there, if anything I've been rather patient with you because I'm still here doing this back and forth.

Because i debunked the entire argument of your? or maybe because is clearly that demoman was faster that the explosions and you are nitpicking to absurd levels to the point if demoman was 0.0001 away from the explosions everyone thinks that it would be wrong.

You haven't debunked my argument and instead have given up excuses as to why the scene suits your narrative, such as the engine limitations, or gameplay would be "too skewed against him if the others could outrun the explosions" which only serves to counter what you claim.

anyway that should be do in another thread and not in this thread and i wouldnt be respoding today because i am sincerlly tired of people using mental gymnastics to excuse SOMETHING THE SCRIPTS SAY

You are the one that is twisting the word "escape" to mean "he outran" which is something entirely different.

 

[Livinmeme]

Okay i am not gona respond to that because i am so tired that my responses would be bad so i am gona ask should we move this to another thread?

 

[Livinmeme]

Also you dont need to be in range with the explosions you only need to be moving relative with it so the discussion isnt about range is about relativity and how i probally cant win this because you can keep making several varitions of the same argument till i give up

 

[Abstractions]

Also you dont need to be in range with the explosions you only need to be moving relative with it so the discussion isnt about range is about relativity and how i probally cant win this because you can keep making several varitions of the same argument till i give up

Well, he was outside their range, but he's also not moving relative to them. I showed you that. Clear as day, in fact.

@Thelastmlg You are free to examine it frame by frame for yourself.

 

[Livinmeme]

He is moving relative to the explosions

 

[DaReaperMan]

He is moving relative to the explosions

And the frame-by-frame disagrees.

 

[Livinmeme]

I will debunk that tomorrow as i said before

 

[DaReaperMan]

And the explanation on the Igmur link isn't good enough?

 

[Abstractions]

I will debunk that tomorrow as i said before

I thought you debunked my argument already? So was it today, or is it going to be tomorrow? Or the day after that, and so on?

 

[Thelastmlg]

In my defense, I was aware of the reason for the question but I answered it neutrally, aka for any explosion speed feat.

And yeah, looking frame by frame, demoman doesn't look like he is moving in tandem with the blasts, the closest one to it is the jump and even then he only moves when the explosion already finished.

But since I'm a demomain and not in the mood to argue this, I'll be neutral for now, already said what I needed, just wanna know if we can make bonk hypersonic because explosions

 

[Abstractions]

I tried to update the spy calc a bit
i added the distance from hand to elbow to the total distance because i thought to properly stab somebody Spy would have to move at least that much
does that make sense or not really?

The problem I'm having here is that Scout was still talking for a bit as this happened and Spy had the time to sit back down and respond to Scout before he noticed, so this could have transpired over a couple seconds at least, even if he had quick reflexes.

 

[DMUA]

I mean, even not basing it on Scout noticing, the guy just being collapsed over where he was once standing implies he couldn't or could hardly react to Spy's attack.

 

[Abstractions]

I mean, even not basing it on Scout noticing, the guy just being collapsed over where he was once standing implies he couldn't or could hardly react to Spy's attack.

Him hardly being able to react is fine and all, but it's more that the guy was about to strike when Spy disarmed him and put it in his back, promptly sitting back down afterwards. Spy's a skilled assassin, so it's not out of his skillset.

The fact we don't fully see the guy's reaction is what makes this a rather unknown variable anyway, the only way we can tell how long it took is based on how long it took Scout to realize what had happened.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Scout has subsonic to subsonic+ reactions though, wouldn't that affect the feat?

 

[Antvasima]

What Abstractions has decided can probably be applied.

 

[Livinmeme]

Can i still debunke the arguments of abstraction or that alredy happened?

 

[Antvasima]

Haven't both of you already discussed this a lot?

 

[Livinmeme]

Haven't both of you already discussed this a lot?

Well no one agreed with each other and the discussion should be in a CRT anyway

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You already repeat the same things over and over that are rejected by literally everyone else in the thread. And everything is just assuming the highest possible interpretation that is heavily contradicted when someone actually looks at the cutscene and watches it frame by frame.

 

[Livinmeme]

You already repeat the same things over and over that are rejected by literally everyone else in the thread. And everything is just assuming the highest possible interpretation that is heavily contradicted when someone actually looks at the cutscene and watches it frame by frame.

Why people keep misundersting what i am saying. my point that he was outrunning the outcoming explosions not the explosions that it happened behind him if he was slower he would got caugth out by them

wich wasnt Debunked

 

[Livinmeme]

You already repeat the same things over and over that are rejected by literally everyone else in the thread. And everything is just assuming the highest possible interpretation that is heavily contradicted when someone actually looks at the cutscene and watches it frame by frame.

and also they debunked my points... that wasnt even my point because they didnt read what i say at the begining of the series and assumed that my point that he outrunned the present explosions my point that he outrunned the incoming explosions moving fast enough to not be caugth

aka: my point it that he outrunned the several explosions not the explosions

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we can go ahead with what Abstractions and Medeus decided here.

 

[Livinmeme]

I think that we can go ahead with what Abstractions and Medeus decided here.

They dont agree with it

Even if they missunderstand my entire point and jumped conclusions with it

 

[Abstractions]

Scout has subsonic to subsonic+ reactions though, wouldn't that affect the feat?

That would be stacking, and it was not as if Scout was trying to react to what happened because he was talking out loud and focused on something else.

aka: my point it that he outrunned the several explosions not the explosions

He didn't outrun explosions, that's self-evident.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Abstractions' points.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I was thinking less "use subsonic timeframe" and more "make spy subsonic" but fair

 

[Livinmeme]

That would be stacking, and it was not as if Scout was trying to react to what happened because he was talking out loud and focused on something else.


He didn't outrun explosions, that's self-evident.

he outrunned the incoming explosions

 

[DaReaperMan]

he outrunned the incoming explosions

The entire thread disagrees with you. You have the frame by frame fully explained to you...

 

[Livinmeme]

The entire thread disagrees with you. You have the frame by frame fully explained to you...

i alredy explained that he outrunned the incoming explosions not the explosions (yes that is confusing my english sucks) but yeah this cant get done till i get more proves till then

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

 

[Antvasima]

The consensus here should be applied at this point.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Oops, images are in wrong order. But basically, here's some clear in tandem movement

 

[Abstractions]

Oops, images are in wrong order. But basically, here's some clear in tandem movement

The explosives are no longer expanding from their ignition, they are dying down to where only the flames remain.

They've already finished their initial blast as he was mid-air, there isn't "in tandem" movement there.

The consensus here should be applied at this point.

It was already, I was just waiting on what should have been done with BONK! and the Spy calc.

I believe that I have been very patient, so there shouldn't be any objections to me closing this thread now.