Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

[Sir_Ovens]

I was referring to rocket and sticky-jumping with my earlier comment.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Why this downgrade?

(sigh) I don't know, but such a description could be faster.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I can confirm this isn't how one stickyjumps. I guess the feat can be used to determine speed if it isn't outlier.

I think it's pretty clear he's jumping away not sticky jumping here

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

(sigh) I don't know, but such a description could be faster.

Again, I heard TF2 had lightspeed weapons. Does it?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So already having teleportation devices, robot sentry hybrids that clearly shouldn't be this slow, and healing machines are "Outdated." in this case?... Seriously?

Tell me what would be a real world equivalent to a teleporter, much less Soldier's rocket launcher.

Again, the time period is set in the past. We in our real world have records of weapons used at the time and none of them could be used to cross scale to TF2. If the game was set in the future where the advancements in technology are unknowable to us now and require some form of imagination, then and only then would we consider TF2 weapons for upscaling from our modern day weaponry.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Again, I heard TF2 had lightspeed weapons. Does it?

YES, SO MUCH FOR OUT DATED... But this probably won't fly apparently.

 

[Schwxnz]

The calc for BONK was contended a long time ago, one of its issues being that Scout doesn't actually catch the bullets (that is not implied even once) and that calcing dodging/reflecting shit from right up in your face can get massively inflated results

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Tell me what would be a real world equivalent to a teleporter, much less Soldier's rocket launcher.

Again, the time period is set in the past. We in our real world have records of weapons used at the time and none of them could be used to cross scale to TF2. If the game was set in the future where the advancements in technology are unknowable to us now and require some form of imagination, then and only then would we consider TF2 weapons for upscaling from our modern day weaponry.

I mean if its direct advancements you want, Austrilum literally boosted somebody to create advancements of the future already. I find it hard to believe the weaponry is outdated just because its in the past yet they have the material TO ALREADY BUILD THE FUTURE then they clearly shouldn't be that inferior in weaponry.

 

[Jaften]

Can we stop with the arguments from personal incredulity already? They don't accomplish anything.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just out of curiosity if we're removing the use of HUs as game mechanics wouldnt that also remove a lot of their additional weaponry as game mechanics? 99% of the weapons they use in game dont appear anywhere else

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Can we stop with the arguments from personal incredulity already? They don't accomplish anything.

What Incredulity? I apologize for whatever it was but I literally shown the fact that they already build some amount of future to justify that they shouldn't be as inferior as its being brought upon here.

 

[Schwxnz]

For one, these things aren't really related at all, but a solid amount of their weapons are shown in the comics.

 

[Jaften]

Just out of curiosity if we're removing the use of HUs as game mechanics wouldnt that also remove a lot of their additional weaponry as game mechanics? 99% of the weapons they use in game dont appear anywhere else

I don't see why removing HUs would remove unlockable weapons. There might be a few that are non-canon but the majority of them are probably within the realm of "canon enough".

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

For one, these things aren't really related at all, but a solid amount of their weapons are shown in the comics.

Oh yeah like the alien weaponry they used... For amping their weaponry more...

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just out of curiosity if we're removing the use of HUs as game mechanics wouldnt that also remove a lot of their additional weaponry as game mechanics? 99% of the weapons they use in game dont appear anywhere else

The weapons are canonically made by Mann Co. and given to the Mercs.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The weapons are canonically made by Mann Co. and given to the Mercs.

And? Overwatch characters canonically have all their in-game powers but we still removed ones they didnt explicitly show in-lore

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

And? Overwatch characters canonically have all their in-game powers but we still removed ones they didnt explicitly show in-lore

OW has different standards via gameplay being deemed non canon

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

And? Overwatch characters canonically have all their in-game powers but we still removed ones they didnt explicitly show in-lore

That's actually pretty odd and I thought they had a bit more, But that is for another thread. I shouldn't mention Over watch please. Please. don't come off as Pre MatPat up in here right now I think you're better then that.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

TF2 is not Overwatch. The Mercs canonically fight at all the locations that are present within the default map pool. Gameplay is intrinsically tied to the lore of TF2 and weapons have not dramatically changed throughout the 10+ years TF2 has been running. Till this day, the Force-A-Nature does the same thing it has always done since day one. I see no reason why we would remove this property from it when it isn't contradicted anywhere within the lore.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

OW has different standards via gameplay being deemed non canon

Not really? The creators of the series outright said the gameplay is canon

 

[Jaften]

What Incredulity? I apologize for whatever it was but I literally shown the fact that they already build some amount of future to justify that they shouldn't be as inferior as its being brought upon here.

The whole post below is an argument from incredulity. The language "I find it hard to believe" is a pretty dead giveaway.

I mean if its direct advancements you want, Austrilum literally boosted somebody to create advancements of the future already. I find it hard to believe the weaponry is outdated just because its in the past yet they have the material TO ALREADY BUILD THE FUTURE then they clearly shouldn't be that inferior in weaponry.

To the best of my knowledge (which I will admit is not absolute) nothing in TF2 lore outright states that bullets fired from guns are far faster than we'd expect them to be even with apparent futuristic technology being featured in the series. You would actually need direct evidence from the lore that the futuristic technology ALSO meant that the bullets were much faster than we are used to—because the bullet speeds are just as arbitrary as the projectile speeds set by the designers in the cinematics.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

TF2 is not Overwatch. The Mercs canonically fight at all the locations that are present within the default map pool. Gameplay is intrinsically tied to the lore of TF2 and weapons have not dramatically changed throughout the 10+ years TF2 has been running. Till this day, the Force-A-Nature does the same thing it has always done since day one. I see no reason why we would remove this property from it when it isn't contradicted anywhere within the lore.

Can you show where all the weapons they have in-game appear in the lore?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Not really? The creators of the series outright said the gameplay is canon

Did they? everybody here just keeps saying that OW gameplay isn't canon

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Not really? The creators of the series outright said the gameplay is canon

Weekly, your Overwatch bias is showing. Let's try stay on topic.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The whole post below is an argument from incredulity. The language "I find it hard to believe" is a pretty dead giveaway.

To the best of my knowledge (which I will admit is not absolute) nothing in TF2 lore outright states that bullets fired from guns are far faster than we'd expect them to be even with apparent futuristic technology being featured in the series. You would actually need direct evidence from the lore that the futuristic technology ALSO meant that the bullets were much faster than we are used to—because the bullet speeds are just as arbitrary as the projectile speeds set by the designers in the cinematics.

Ok, the argument from incredulity is legit here then

 

[Abstractions]

Look, TF2 weapons are tremendously superior to ours, and you assume they're this slower?

The Huntsman fires faster than your superior rockets and is recursive bow made from wood and duct tape.

Even if some equipment TF2 has is something beyond our reach, like Medic's healing equipment and Engineer's teleporting, that doesn't make every single thing they use technologically superior, that's a bad assumption to make.

Stop hiding behind fallacies. This is a blatant instance of game mechanics presented in a lot of games

Then you agree that the calculations should be removed because they rely on said mechanics and in turn render gameplay unreliable?

I mean if its direct advancements you want, Austrilum literally boosted somebody to create advancements of the future already. I find it hard to believe the weaponry is outdated just because its in the past yet they have the material TO ALREADY BUILD THE FUTURE then they clearly shouldn't be that inferior in weaponry.

This is of course until you get to 1972, where that is all gone because Mann Co. and the Administrator have all hoarded and coveted the Australium in order to prolong their life, most mercenaries don't even know what it's fully capable of and most of their equipment and the comics reflects that.

 

[Jaften]

Overwatch is not on topic and is breaching into whataboutism territory, let's drop that topic.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The Huntsman fires faster than your superior rockets and is recursive bow made from wood and duct tape.

Even if some equipment TF2 has is something beyond our reach, like Medic's healing equipment and Engineer's teleporting, that doesn't make every single thing they use technologically superior, that's a bad assumption to make.


Then you agree that the calculations should be removed because they rely on said mechanics and in turn render gameplay unreliable?


This is of course until you get to 1972, where that is all gone because Mann Co. and the Administrator have all hoarded and coveted the Australium in order to prolong their life, most mercenaries don't even know what it's fully capable of and most of their equipment and the comics reflects that.

Can you like
stop using blatant game mechanics

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Here we see the Force-A-Nature being sold to Pauling by Hale.

In fact, the entire comic canonically explains why all the Mercs have skinned weapons. Any skinned weapon would be canon to the lore.

 

[Abstractions]

Can you like
stop using blatant game mechanics

Then stop making the argument and get rid of MvM upgrades.

You telling us to "stop using game mechanics" is agreeing that these speed ratings should go.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Then stop making the argument and get rid of MvM upgrades.

You telling us to "stop using game mechanics" is agreeing that these speed ratings should go.

No. Game mechanics is counting the HU system. MvM machine should definitely go yeah. And again someone should calc Demoman's explosion outrunning feat is should be higher than anything else

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Ok, the argument from incredulity is legit here then

An argument from incredulity asserts that since one personally does not believe something, then it cannot be true. I don’t see how that can be a valid argument in any situation.

 

[Jaften]

Here we see the Force-A-Nature being sold to Pauling by Hale.

In fact, the entire comic canonically explains why all the Mercs have skinned weapons. Any skinned weapon would be canon to the lore.

Right. I think there are only a handful of unlocks that are of dubious canonicity. Mostly the ones that are references to outside franchises, like the Aliens flamethrower skin, and obvious non-canon cases like the Valve quality items that are literally just developer cheat code weapons.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

An argument from incredulity asserts that since one personally does not believe something, then it cannot be true. I don’t see how that can be a valid argument in any situation.

It's not just that I don't believe in rockets being so slow here, you can't shoot a rocket for it fly a considerable distance even in the air at only 20 m/s

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

This is of course until you get to 1972, where that is all gone because Mann Co. and the Administrator have all hoarded and coveted the Australium in order to prolong their life, most mercenaries don't even know what it's fully capable of and most of their equipment and the comics reflects that.

Actually the last Austrilium is apparently in Space... But I can probably see what you're getting at but still its curious.

 

[Abstractions]

No. Game mechanics is counting the HU system.

Yes, like the calculations on the page are doing, meaning you agree they need to be downgraded.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Yes, like the calculations on the page are doing, meaning you agree they need to be downgraded.

So if HU is outta here, What we can rely on now is in the cinematics then? The Demo one is promising at least, I swear they have more then just superhuman speeds or just 9-B stuff.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Yes, like the calculations on the page are doing, meaning you agree they need to be downgraded.

No need to use HU for calcs, just compare mercs' speed to rockets

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

No need to use HU for calcs, just compare mercs' speed to rockets

The only problem is apparently not as fast from our rockets in spite of what has been created in that verse even if there is no more Austrilium to supply.

 

[Abstractions]

So if HU is outta here, What we can rely on now is in the cinematics then? The Demo one is promising at least, I swear they have more then just superhuman speeds or just 9-B stuff.

I did say the comics and the cinematics are open to use, someone should calculate the train feat and Spy's backstab and others could downscale from those.

No need to use HU for calcs, just compare mercs' speed to rockets

Can't use gameplay for that as it follows strictly by hammer units.