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Hammering in the Inconsistency: Bad Scaling and Hammer Units (Team Fortress Revision)

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Abstractions said:
I did say the comics and the cinematics are open to use, someone should calculate the train feat and Spy's backstab and others could downscale from those.


Can't use gameplay for that as it follows strictly by hammer units.
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Hammer units is nothing but a system made to record gaming limits and balance weapons. Just compare how fast mercs move as opposed to rockets, use the true speed of rockets and calc it
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Hammer units is nothing but a system made to record gaming limits and balance weapons. Just compare how fast mercs move as opposed to rockets, use the true speed of rockets and calc it
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I don't think you realize that this is exactly what the HU-based calc does already, all you are proposing is that we make the measurements via pixels rather than HUs.

You don't seem to realize that we simply think that the rockets are sus and we don't want to use them at all.
 
Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E said:
Thats like... Superhuman... And if its designed in game THEN THAT'S where it shouldn't fall on Game mechanics then? okay. that totally makes perfect sense.
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Solution: don't use the rockets for scaling, because they're obviously sus and not reliable.
 
Well, the general agreement on the thread is to discard the current way of rating because the whole thing with the rocket is clearly inconsistent one way or the other. So I'd appreciate if people focus on other feats that can be used here. This back and forth is starting to go in circles.

I did say the comics and the cinematics are open to use, someone should calculate the train feat and Spy's backstab and others could downscale from those.
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This.
 
The train feat is still kinda iffy seeing as it wasnt moving at top speed so we'd have to figure out how fast it was going as well
 
AKM sama said:
Well, the general agreement on the thread is to discard the current way of rating because the whole thing with the rocket is clearly inconsistent one way or the other. So I'd appreciate if people focus on other feats that can be used here. This back and forth is starting to go in circles.
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I mean Da Lunge was planning something apparently. Not all of them are of HU related or Rocket speed (Maybe excluded by this) if it tickles your fancy it seems.
 
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WeeklyBattles said:
The train feat is still kinda iffy seeing as it wasnt moving at top speed so we'd have to figure out how fast it was going as well
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Hmm I don't know it still seems to be moving at moderately high speeds. apparently its being planned that there is more to it then just this train however.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The train feat is still kinda iffy seeing as it wasnt moving at top speed so we'd have to figure out how fast it was going as well
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It would still yield something decent, due to the fact he had to cross the gap to the other platform in the very small amount of time he had to do so.
 
Abstractions said:
It would still yield something decent, due to the fact he had to cross the gap to the other platform in the very small amount of time he had to do so.
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Well yeah, It still doesn't seem to be moving at slow speeds anyways. I'm no calc person but this is a start at least. There's others to take into account in cinematics that can top that like Demo explosive (Speed), Another shot in the beginning of Meet the Medic has the blast radius of a rocket dwarf a tree and Scout was injured beforehand yet still conscious by these (AP), Jungle Inferno has the blast radius of Demo's explosives cover a much wider area then expected (AP), and a few others that are going to be mentioned by another user.

HU related and Game Mechanics are to be excluded it seems but it shows the verse has a bit more feats to take into account then just superhuman/subsonic or the 9-B.
 
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Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E said:
HU related and Game Mechanics are to be excluded it seems but it shows the verse has a bit more feats to take into account then just the 9-B.
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The Meet the Medic explosion stuff was already calculated before and has been talked about a lot.

Not that this matters, AP is not the discussion here. I'd like us to stay on topic so this can be done efficiently.
 
Abstractions said:
The Meet the Medic explosion stuff was already calculated before and has been talked about a lot.

Not that this matters, AP is not the discussion here. I'd like us to stay on topic so this can be done efficiently.
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Well OKAY there at least those speed feats to take into account including Demo's then!
 
I'm going to have to use my two cents here; using the "Year" or "More Advanced" examples are outrageous fallacies. It's very common in fiction for Medieval Fantasy verses to have their weapons with far more destructive firepower and faster projectiles than a lot of modern or future settings. Usually due to the existence of magic or characters being superhuman. Being more advanced =/= more powerful or dangerous. And let's be real here, the IRL version of the future is might actually try to make our weapons less dangerous given the demand for peace but have usefulness in things not related to killing people.

But anyway, I don't agree with making our rockets 22 m/s as that seems silly, but I agree we should avoid using map units entirely given the mass inconsistencies and the fact that bullets are consistently seen as much faster than everything both in canon and gameplay. And speaking of which, their shotguns appear quite strong given they cause the mercs' heads to explode on a regular basis. So yeah, collecting more feats and using more realistic calculations is a good idea. And Bonk should just be an "At least Supersonic, likely far higher" or something along those lines.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm going to have to use my two cents here; using the "Year" or "More Advanced" examples is are outrageous fallacy. It's very common in fiction for Medieval Fantasy verses to have their weapons with far more destructive firepower and faster projectiles than a lot of modern or future settings. Usually due to the existence of magic or characters being superhuman. Being more advanced =/= more powerful or dangerous. And let's be real here, the IRL version of the future is might actually try to make our weapons less dangerous given the demand for peace but have usefulness in things not related to killing people.

But anyway, I don't agree with making our rockets 22 m/s as that seems silly, but I agree we should avoid using map units entirely given the mass inconsistencies and the fact that bullets are consistently seen as much faster than everything both in canon and gameplay. And speaking of which, their shotguns appear quite strong given they cause the mercs' heads to explode on a regular basis. So yeah, collecting more feats and using more realistic calculations is a good idea. And Bonk should just be an "At least Supersonic, likely far higher" or something along those lines.
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Makes sense. I did however hear that TF2 has lightspeed weapons and bonk can scale to then
 
So...
what's the progress here?
 
I believe it's universally agreed we should stop assuming "Hammer Units" are linear and the proposals are we either avoid using them as a basis entirely or if we want to use them; we go off the whole "HU are only 1.9 cm" which results in the in verse RPGs being under 21 m/s. Which is admittedly arbitrarily pathetic, so I think it's better to just not use HU units at all and actually look for characters using their own feats instead of trying to slightly downscale them from the in game rocket speeds and what not.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I believe it's universally agreed we should stop assuming "Hammer Units" are linear and the proposals are we either avoid using them as a basis entirely or if we want to use them; we go off the whole "HU are only 1.9 cm" which results in the in verse RPGs being under 21 m/s. Which is admittedly arbitrarily pathetic, so I think it's better to just not use HU units at all and actually look for characters using their own feats instead of trying to slightly downscale them from the in game rocket speeds and what not.
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I'm aware, however I vaguely remember you not having much of a problem on the TF2 blog but ok I guess you changed your mind about it. I mean there already are a few mentioned which could have some potential then we could need some aid in calcing those. Some of the users interested in the Verse are thinking of a revamp to the characters stats just excluding the HU's.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I believe it's universally agreed we should stop assuming "Hammer Units" are linear and the proposals are we either avoid using them as a basis entirely or if we want to use them; we go off the whole "HU are only 1.9 cm" which results in the in verse RPGs being under 21 m/s. Which is admittedly arbitrarily pathetic, so I think it's better to just not use HU units at all and actually look for characters using their own feats instead of trying to slightly downscale them from the in game rocket speeds and what not.
Click to expand...
So, have the current ratings been updated to their previous ratings or something else, until we find more reliable feats?
 
Their previous ratings were based on the exact same method, just with different values for Soldier's rockets.

Demoman moving in tandem with his explosions should be calced.

Also as soon as we have a concrete speed rating for them can we please for the love of god stop rating Saxton Hale's travel speed at Unknown? Just scale him to the likes of Pyro, Engie, Sniper - those are the mercs who move at "100%" speed, with Soldier, Demoman and Heavy being below that and Scout, Medic and Spy being above that.
 
Schwxnz said:
Their previous ratings were based on the exact same method, just with different values for Soldier's rockets.

Demoman moving in tandem with his explosions should be calced.

Also as soon as we have a concrete speed rating for them can we please for the love of god stop rating Saxton Hale's travel speed at Unknown? Just scale him to the likes of Pyro, Engie, Sniper - those are the mercs who move at "100%" speed, with Soldier, Demoman and Heavy being below that and Scout, Medic and Spy being above that.
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Oh, wait, Spy has above average speed?
 
It doesn't look like anyone has updated them yet, but I think @Abstractions knows more details and what to propose until we find better feats.
 
Schwxnz said:
Their previous ratings were based on the exact same method, just with different values for Soldier's rockets.
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Those are the current ratings, not the previous ones.

Until we calculate actual feats for the Mercenaries, they should simply be rated at either Athletic Human to Peak Human, the former for slower mercenaries and the latter for faster ones like Spy and Scout.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
It doesn't look like anyone has updated them yet, but I think @Abstractions knows more details and what to propose until we find better feats.
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I was hoping pages would have been able to be updated with new calculations, but we can update them now if those aren't coming soon.

I could make a list of changes for review shortly if need be.
 
Abstractions said:
Those are the current ratings, not the previous ones.

Until we calculate actual feats for the Mercenaries, they should simply be rated at either Athletic Human to Peak Human, the former for slower mercenaries and the latter for faster ones like Spy and Scout.
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I was referring to the calculation used before, all the way back in 2016. It used the same method, but rated them at like, half the speed.

I suppose that works as a placeholder, but Demo's feat should be put into the Calc Request Thread.

Things such as airblasting existing solidifies their reactionary and combat speed at least equating to Soldier's rockets, but I assume that won't get them a concrete rating until certain feats get calculated?
 
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And again, the HU is simply a method of using an inconsistent game measure unit. How about just compare mercs to rockets with no HU?
 
Until someone calculates the cutscene from Meet the Scout, it's best to go off Abstractions' proposal.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Until someone calculates the cutscene from Meet the Scout, it's best to go off Abstractions' proposal.
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Athletic Human and Peak human?... Look if its for a 'for now, At least (Insert speed)' okay. but I propose something bigger then that, I'm just gonna remind people again that The Heavy despite being the slowest is actually still FAST AF in the canon lore. He has literally fought Gigantic Grizzly Bears for lunch that his sisters casually complain about eating such many times which indicates they been doing it for a long time...

Grizzly Bears shown in this verse are not just huge (Something also notable to note is literally crushing a portion of the Amelia's Aircraft with its sheer weight alone and look at the severed head difference) but go a good 35 MPH... EASILY MIND YOU (Superhuman) And Heavy just ****** the Bear up as easily as one would bite into a Sandvich. That should be a better rating.
 
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Da_Lunge_Fish said:
And again, the HU is simply a method of using an inconsistent game measure unit. How about just compare mercs to rockets with no HU?
Click to expand...
Apparently there are 'No real indications' of comparing them to our rockets. Not to forget being apparently labelled as 44 MPH which as the latter also agreed to that the Mercs shouldn't be THAT slow.
 
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Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E said:
Athletic Human and Peak human?... Look if its for a 'for now, At least (Insert speed)' okay. but I propose something bigger then that, I'm just gonna remind people again that The Heavy despite being the slowest is actually still FAST AF in the canon lore. He has literally fought Gigantic Grizzly Bears for lunch that his sisters casually complain about eating such many times which indicates they been doing it for a long time...

Grizzly Bears shown in this verse are not just huge (Something also notable to note is literally crushing a portion of the Amelia's Aircraft with its sheer weight alone and look at the severed head difference) but go a good 35 MPH... EASILY MIND YOU (Superhuman) And Heavy just ****** the Bear up as easily as one would bite into a Sandvich. That should be a better rating.
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This actually doesn't mean anything, you don't need to match the speed of the bear to physically contend with it, like how you don't need to be 9-B to harm one because of piercing damage.

If I punched out a cheetah that doesn't suddenly make me close to Subsonic in speed, just because they can run at such speeds doesn't mean they fight at them.
 
I agree with that point too; Bears rarely use their Superhuman reaction speeds aside from just running forward. Worst case scenario is to just have Unknown speed ratings.
 
Again, the problem with the calc is that we use inconsistent HUs to compare mercs to rockets. How about we do the same but with pixel scaling instead?
 
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