New NNT Rescaling

[ByAsura]

Rescaling Part 1-A - The Big Changes​

Definition of Several​

For reference, even I don't exactly agree with this section, but DemonGodMitchAubin made a good point about the definition of several on MHA content revisions.

A common definition of several is 3-4, but it's also "more than two but not many", or just an inexact and small amount. In fact, some dictionaries state that it's more than 1, or even 3. You can pretty much use any definition you want to get anything between 1 and 5, which makes our Full Counter scaling very unreliable.

Let's go through the descriptions chapter by chapter.

22 - Guila says it more than doubles the power of attacks.

115 - It's stated that Albion's attack increased several-fold.

184 - Estarossa says more than double.

238 - Chandler says several here.

331 - Full Counter doubles the size and power of attacks.

Functionally, more than 2 typically means 3 or more, but technically it can mean an infinite amount of numbers between 2 and 3. Given that Nabaka outright says double at one point (I might not have made this section otherwise), I think we should low-ball our Full Counters to a 2x increase.

Honestly, this makes way more sense because

A) we currently scale Meliodas' Prime Base form above his Post-Time Skip Demon Form, despite Diane stating outright that his power is comparable to the Ten Commandments

B) it's also more logical for Elizabeth to be capable of harming Zeldris Demon King (who was stated not to be significantly inferior to Meliodas Demon King at his very weakest level), harming Assault Mode Meliodas and being overpowered by multi-commandment Estarossa after recovering her Goddess powers

And C) If we assume everyone's 100 gigatons here (via Infinity and Limit Breaker boosts), the final Full Counter is 5.12 Teratons, which is vastly more consistent with calculations of destroying Britannia outright.

Edit: For anyone wondering, using the actual diameter of the UK IRL (the edge of Stac an Dunain to St Lawrence) as our radius gets 64 teratons.

Drole, Derieri and Critical Over Galand Rescaling​

Bear with me, this is important for later.

Firstly, while Drole is far inferior to Meliodas, it's probably not an 8x gap. Drole power is described as being on a similar level to Diane, whose physical strength is on par with Demon Meliodas. The guy was fighting Meliodas with a Sacred Treasure and being constantly healed/torn apart so he couldn't fight in concert with Gloxinia, so it's reasonable that he was being overwhelmed so heavily.

This doesn't mean Drole is physically on par with Meliodas, though, this is just his overall fighting ability with magic and earth manipulation. In terms of physical ability, he's in an unknown place between Unsealed Base Meliodas and Derieri/Godless Zeldris.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people downscaling Derieri (not that I'm saying it's a bad thing, mind you) because we don't have any feats with Combo Star. So I'll try to use some creative scaling here with Critical Over Galand.

I argued against this in the past, but I looked into the raws. What Melascula says is

• 「臨界突破」はガランの武力を極限まで高める単純にして強力無比の魔力よ

This translates very roughly to

• "Critical Over" is a simple and powerful magical power that raises the force of Galan to the limit

The characters 武力 translate to force, military power/force, etc. The physical strength aspect of power levels the series have the same kanji. Even if they aren't referring to the category directly, it's explicit that it only boosts his physical abilities. This places Critical Over Galand's strength at 37,000, which surpasses Drole. Yet he could only scratch Escanor with a weapon, who was at a 50,000 and increasing every few seconds well after Galand hit him (so his power level was under 50,000 when the attack occurred).

Escanor is someone with a lot of magic, such as energy blasts like Cruel Sun, and pride in himself (I believe this is partially what constitutes spirit, but could be wrong). A similarly prideful character like Galand with virtually no magical attacks has 3,000 (1,000 magic and 2,000 spirit). So it's likely that his overall combat power is in the same overall league as Derieri, a largely physical fighter whose strength is 48,000 and whole power level is 52,000.

This is all substantiated by the fact that Drole has a very low physical strength compared to his overall power level, and Derieri having a power level exceeding Escanor's with a physical strength overall comparable to her overall combat class.

So, we can conclude that Derieri surpasses Drole's physicals to a similar extent to Demon Meliodas, which is very likely because Derieri's physical strength far surpasses Drole and is close to Demon Meliodas'.

Part 1-B - New Full Counter Scaling​

I just want to mention here that I'm not trying to invalidate our entire Full Counter scaling, merely picking some holes so that we can tighten our scaling.

Taking something 2 as strong as yourself doesn't require twice your own durability, but it's also a very different animal if a character destroys an enemy capable of at least withstanding their own attack. For example, if Meliodas vaporized Galand, who withstood his own Full Counter, it's reasonable to claim that he's 2x stronger than Galand.

Invalid Full Counters (+ Diane stuff)​

Twigo took damage from his Full Counter, so his durability should just scale to his physical strength, with the Full Countered attack acting as justification.

Escanor's Full Counter is very questionable. While the Perfect Cube does redirect attacks back at its user, Meliodas had already Full Countered the Cruel Sun before hand, causing it to explode into the side of the arena. I do think the bulk of the blast was redirected towards them considering the location of the cloud in the last image (roughly the centre, which is a little bit further out than where Meliodas and Escanor were), but he would have only withstood a large portion of it due to his lack of surface area.

Edit: Also, there's the fact that this Escanor could still harm Meliodas with normal punches.

Albion didn't really tank its own attack. Its mouth was heavily damaged, and Albion is later obliterated by its own blasts. However, it's reasonable to say someone like Post-Training Diane is well over 2x stronger than Albion (12.6 megatons) because she one-shot an Albion, whereas Full Countered attacks that were going to harm or kill Arthur did little.

New Scaling​

Derieri tanked her own Full Countered attack without using her darkness as protection. Post-Timeskip Meliodas heavily damaged her, even to the point of punching out her ribs. Since we've established why Derieri isn't too far from Meliodas, we can replace the Assault Mode Full Counter with Derieri's Full Counter.

This means Estarossa and Post-Time Skip Meliodas start off as just under 6.6 gigatons.

As for the rest, there's so many transformation multipliers that I think we should discuss everything else.

Part 2 - BoS Characters​

I've made a new calculation that was accepted for Red Demons, which isn't an outlier because of this new Ban calculation. Anything on par with a Red can be bumped up to 1.5 megatons.

The Sins/Red & Gray Hendrickson​

Ban, of course, scales to the Red Demon. His overall power level is far higher, and he was obliterating it with a weapon. For reference, this isn't a Sacred Treasure, and Ban does about the same damage to Red Demon Hendrickson with a weapon as he does without (blood and lost teeth).

As we established in the previous thread (and was agreed to), Meliodas is several times higher than Ban. Because of the inconsistencies, I took a loot at the raws. The Kanji is 数発, which translates to several blows. With our new definition, this places him at 3 megatons. Diane is far superior to Meliodas to the point of rivalling him at human size, so Small City level+ seems reasonable. This may not seem like enough for an upscale, but she began overwhelming Meliodas after growing slightly, so the difference isn't marginal.

King is superior to the Sins even while suppressing his power (he didn't use his full power until the Helbram fight), so he's at least Small City level+. This is because, unlike them, he constantly kept his Sacred Treasure.

Gowther's much more complicated. At the very least, we know he's far stronger than the likes of Guila and easily cut off 2nd Drole's head, who could at least make the Dawn Roar (whose leader is as strong as Ban) struggle, but is comparable to a character that had her neck easily snapped by Ban. I think at most Small City level is reasonable.

Now for Hendrickson (see why base Hendrickson isn't comparable to Meliodas without weaponry below). Red Demon Hendrickson was on par with the Sins, even being harmed by Ban and fighting on par with Meliodas, while Gray Hendrickson has the power of a Demon more powerful than Howzer and Gilthunder's weaponry (see below) after they'd grown stronger since the Kingdom Infiltration arc. So he's way higher than 6 megatons. City level seems reasonable.

Lower Holy Knights​

We've agreed to drop the Baste calculation, and I've done some new calculations here, so I'll look at some values for Ruin and lower Holy Knights.

Let's ignore the statements that 10 Holy Knights are comparable to a Sin, because 1 Holy Knight would also = 1,000 Knights, who pretty much only have Street level to Wall level feats. I'm pretty sure it's exclusively based on all Sins exceeding 300, while Sins exceed 3,000.

Helbram normally has a power level of 1,400 (which is considerably lowered by his shapeshifting powers and Hendrickson's first resurrection), but a portion of 20 Holy Knights' power allows him to outlcass a casual King (who was still grossly above Red Demon Blood-amped Guila and Jericho w/Sacred Treasure-like weapons) and initially overwhelm Berserk Meliodas. A fraction of Hendrickson's strength did allow Helbram to one-shot Meliodas after he was being overwhelmed, but it's worth noting that they don't actually give him their full strength until his rematch with King, in which he was already on par with a Holy Knight Captain with just a handfull of Knights before they substantially amp his power with the full extent of their abilities.

Also, the anti-magic force protecting Camelot Castle (which has a military force rivalling Liones) were able to stop a single attack from Albion by using all of their strength. A second would have at least damaged Arthur.

It's not like the Weird Fangs don't have their own feats. Ruin was able to make Meliodas bleed, and both he and Friesia managed to barely survive a beating from Meliodas and Diane.

So, imo, the Weird Fangs and low-level Holy Knights could easily be in the Large Town level range, but they're far inferior to the Sins (like 1 Sin = a dozen or more average Holy Knights). The Weird Fangs are a very elite group of Holy Knights in the Ruby Category. This is substantiated by the fact that they have power levels well over 400, while baseline Holy Knights exceed 300. However, they're below Platinum, Diamond and Emerald ranks like the Dawn Roar, Pleiades of the Azure Sky and Gilthunder.

On another note, Ochre Demons can harm a somewhat injured New Holy War Arc Howzer, with it being implied that the Demon would have have killed him if Elaine didn't intervene. So we can at least put the strongest Ochres, who have a power level between the highest and lowest values of a Red Demon, somewhat near Howzer's durability. So these new ratings are consistent with what we've seen from Holy Knights.

High-level Holy Knights​

We know the power levels of Red Demons, but not the specific values. This is a problem, as it's stated that Denzel is too weak to harm a Red Demon (probably a huge exaggeration, but I checked the raws and the line is apparently a little more accurate than this), suggesting that even most high-level Holy Knights without Sacred Treasures are inferior a Red Demon, which makes at least some sense because even Ban had a very difficult time winning even with a weapon, and it's implied a Red could have killed Slader well after he'd done training in Istar (his power had at least grown enough to take down a Copper Demon with no damage alongside Simon and East Liones' Holy Knights).

Which brings me onto another point. The weapons that high-level Holy Knights have are similar in quality Sacred Treasures. For example, Howzer's able to channel tornadoes through his blade because it's a Sacred Treasure, although the characters don't actually need Sacred Treasures to channel their powers through weaponry. Even later into the series, all of their power levels are far inferior to the Sins, but the likes of Gilthunder and Hendrickson are directly on par with Meliodas due to their weapons.

Guila's case is similar, but slightly different. She didn't have a Sacred Treasure until the Vaizel Arc, but she's able to somewhat harm Meliodas and kind of fight him, but her physical strength is massively below his (and even inferior to Dogedo), she's clearly at a disadvantage on purely physical terms, and he was weakened by constant explosions.

Something like Large Town level to Small City level physically makes sense, while they get Small City level/Higher with weaponry. In Guila's case she'd get Large Town level physically due to her physical strength being similar to Ruin's entire power level, and Small City level+ with weaponry due to being able to moderately harm Diane.

Apprentices​

On this note, I may as well go after the Holy Knight apprentices.

This calculation here doesn't really make much sense. Shear strength is a material's ability to resist parts its internal volume from moving against itself—effectively, it's the maximum force something can take before its structure falls apart. This isn't internal volume, however, just one large fragment that Twigo cut out. If we use a quarter of the surface area of an ellipsoid multiplied by the area of the width of a sword (0.7112 cm), we get Building level for pulverization.

The perspective on the original calculation is very bad, but it's also not that inaccurate because it's similar to what we see when Elizabeth is standing in front of the shockwave.

Fortunately, we have 2 calcs exceeding 20 tons of TNT, so they're still City Block level.

Potential Speed Upgrade​

I don't agree with this myself because of how inconsistent it is, but I promised to include it in the CRT.

In one of the databooks, it's stated that Gowther fires light. This is the text.

瘡蓋の記憶(リライト・ライト)

魔力消費量:★★

神器から光の魔力を放ち、撃たれた者の記 憶を一時的に改竄する催眠術のような技。

ゴウセルの身体に埋め込ま れ、腕から発現する光の弓 矢。瘡蓋の記憶、などの一 斉掃射が可能になる。光とはいえ実体は存在して おり、武器による相手の攻撃 を受け止めることもできる。

I can't do an exact translation, but it's stated that he fires either light (the intangible form of his attacks) or can fire light with physical presence (another reason why I don't agree). It specifically mentions that Diane was also dodging light arrows in chapter 113.

Diane's Golems​

Drole's Golems never withstood any attacks from the Spirit Spear. Basically, Drole's proxy was underground while Gloxinia's was vaporized. I'd say they still upscale because Drole's proxy almost knocked out Diane and prepared to impale her.

Why Meliodas' Attack Likely Isn't Vaporization​

This isn't to say there's no way at least part of the crater was vaporized, just that a substantial portion wasn't.

Sketches​

Just to get this out of the way, the sketches are non-canonical. They're just storyboards for the anime.

Setting that fact aside, people use this chapter as justification of vaporization. I don't know why that is either, but I think it's this panel. However, that's the effects of dragons obliterating Danafor. It may also be Meliodas stating that fires raged for some length of time, but this doesn't actually suggest that Meliodas vaporized Danafor, only that it had some heat-based aspect.

As for the destruction itself, it matches up closely with what we see in the Istar arc.

Now, let's address the anime that these storyboards were adapted into.

Season 3 Episode 4​

There's a massive number of problems with this scene.

First and foremost. There's a big puff of what appears to be steam, but a massive amount of molten rock that produces smoke is at the bottom of the crater. A large portion of the surface is also shattered beforehand. Assuming this is 100% vaporization is completely illogical.

Secondly, it doesn't line up with any canonical portrayal except the storyboards. In fact, it doesn't even line up with the storyboards either because there's no tendrils or explosion of darkness.

Lastly, this is non-canonical. I can see why it's being used as evidence, but with both this and the storyboards being non-canonical, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Chapter 181​

This panel here is used as evidence, but the problem is that steam really don't look like this in Seven Deadly Sins. It's most likely darkness and fire attacks/darkness-based fire attacks.

• Dragon attacks.
• Meliodas' God Ripper.
• Meliodas' amped punch.
• A Tyrant Dragons' flame breath.
• Hawk's Red Demon attacks.
• Zeldris' attacks.
• Albions' attacks.
• Meliodas DK's hermit.
• Meliodas' God Ripper.
• Zeldris DK's God Slayer.

However, it also resembles smoke created by darkness attacks themselves. So it very well might be heat based, but I'd argue that they're closer to the demons' fireballs in appearance. And you could argue that normal explosions are closer as well. Also, this is smoke, not steam, so this is likely not even vaporization regardless.

Original Demon's Storm​

Some people are planning to recalculate this, so I'm going to show why it's not necessarily the best idea.

The storm appears to thin out as it gets closer to Camelot.

• Stars are seen above the building.
• There's a night sky from Zeldris' perspective.
• Night sky to Escanor and Merlin's right.
• More starry night sky.
• A night sky despite clouds being entirely visible in this panel.
• Ditto for this panel.
• When Escanor is launched, there's swathes of land that the storm doesn't cover.
• There are blatantly no clouds above Camelot here, here, here and here.

It's also inconsistent as to whether or not the clouds extend over the horizon. For example, we see the horizon is completely occluded by white in some panels. Yet there's twice as many panels where the sky is either jet black or starry, suggesting that the clouds don't extend over the horizon. This is most apparent when Mael parts them.

As for the biggest inconsistency, Ban is with the other Sins in chapter 292, who were near the edge of the storm after they defeated Mael and waited for Gowther to appear the whole time. Yet, the clouds proceed to disappear utterly even before Mael parts them. He later very quickly goes to the assault team, suggesting they weren't too far from the Assault Team, who were almost directly between Liones and Camelot, and there's no clouds there either. But then there's clouds right back where Mael and Gowther are as well as the Sins (who've began to approach Camelot) in the next chapter.

So the storm is massively inconsistent in size, position and uniformity. It actually gets even worse when they get closer to Camelot.

Splitting Meliodas​

My suggestion here is that we split Meliodas into multiple profiles.

This includes Pre-Curse

Meliodas from 3,000 years ago was, at first, a monster who'd crush any Goddess he could. He then turned to their side, and was killed by the Demon King, who proceeded to grant him Immortality. This version had the commandment of Love in the past, but no Immortality.

Post-Curse

This covers the incarnation of Meliodas who'd lost most of his abilities after some (unknown) amount of time. Basically, the one that we see in the series, and the one who returns from Purgatory after defeating the Demon King.

Post-Time Skip

This is Meliodas after he was killed by the Ten Commandments. He's lost most of his emotions and scarified even more to become Assault Mode. At the end of it all, he's possessed by the Demon King and killed by the Sins.

I'll make a sandbox for each when we've discussed all the ratings.

 

[Nierre]

Following

This is quite the big rescale.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Following

 

[Ah_Gou]

"Every panel says MORE than 2 times, but let's lowball it to ONLY 2 times just to be safe". Let's not. Pretty dumb take.

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, one panel literally says double just straight up.

Secondly, more than double or several can actually mean any one of the literally infinite numbers between 2 and 3.

I'm pretty sure if Nabaka really meant for the characters to be triple or quadruple at any point, he would have actually said it, but he only specifies double or more and uses terms with variable meanings. So it's probably just a number between 2-3 that's closer to 2.

 

[Ah_Gou]

So there's 1 panel that says straight up double where's the other say either more than double ,multiple or even several but you're trying to lowball it to just 2? Lol
A 2.5 increase would be a safe bet.

 

[ByAsura]

Multiple (a term that's never even used) means 2 or more, and so can several. But several can also mean more than 2.

I guess 2.5 is fair, even if a little assumptive.

 

[Ah_Gou]

"This is all substantiated by the fact that Drole has a very low physical strength compared to his overall power level...."
My man, Dolor has a physical power level of 36 500 with a magic power level of 14.000. What are you talking about?

 

[ByAsura]

I meant in comparison to someone like Derieri, Unsealed Meliodas or Galand (as in ratio-wise), which I thought was blaringly obvious.

 

[Ah_Gou]

The Cruel Sun full counter inside Perfect Cube is very nitpicky since it's stated that Perfect Cube redirects attacks. So an omnidirectional blast would still have been redirected at Meliodas and Escanor.

 

[Ah_Gou]

Also Albion did tank his own attack with minor damage, he couldn't tank 5 of his attacks.

 

[ByAsura]

We can see that it's not really even at them, though. It was directed to the middle of the cube. Also, even if it did hit Escanor, he still wouldn't have taken the full energy. The fact that, as you said, both of them took it automatically means they're each only taking a fraction of the power.

Albion's mouth and eye were heavily damaged. It's like claiming someone is 2x more durable than their own AP because an attack twice as strong as them only punched through their cheek. As for tanking 5 of his own attacks, I know that, which is why I even say Diane is 2x stronger. It's just proof that he can't tank his own attacks.

Edit: Better view of the damage. This panel also shows that half his cheek is gone.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Multiple (a term that's never even used) means 2 or more, and so can several. But several can also mean more than 2.

I guess 2.5 is fair, even if a little assumptive.

Why not use 3 for several?

For instance, if I say I have several friends the standard assumption is that I'm talking about at least 3 people. 2.5 just seems like an unnecessary lowball

 

[ByAsura]

Because, as I just explained, 3 isn't even a set definition for several.

The fact that nobody in the series says 3/triple probably means that it isn't even 3.

 

[Ah_Gou]

We can see that it's not really even at them, though. It was directed to the middle of the cube. Also, even if it did hit Escanor, he still wouldn't have taken the full energy.

Albion's mouth and eye were heavily damaged. It's like claiming someone is 2x more durable than their own AP because an attack twice as strong as them only punched through their cheek. As for tanking 5 of his own attacks, I know that, which is why I even say Diane is 2x stronger. It's just proof that he can't tank his own attacks.

Escanor took his own physical attack full countered back at him by Estarossa with what it seemed less damage. I find it hard to believe Cruel Sun would damage him as much as it did without tanking the full force of the blast.

 

[ByAsura]

Oh yeah, this is totally less damage than this (he already had the blood before this attack).

You missed this edit, but the fact that, as you said, both of them took the Cruel Sun automatically means they're each only taking a fraction of the power.

 

[Ah_Gou]

Because, as I just explained, 3 isn't even a set definition for several.

The fact that nobody in the series says 3/triple probably means that it isn't even 3.

"Several" does mean more than 2 but not many so 3 does fit into the definition.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm saying that it can also mean things that are still lower than 3. It can even mean 2 if you want to into more uncommon definitions.

 

[Ah_Gou]

Oh yeah, this is totally less damage.

You missed this edit, but the fact that, as you said, both of them took the Cruel Sun automatically means they're each only taking a fraction of the power.

I was talking about the first Full Counter, where Escanor shrugged it off like it was no big deal.

 

[Ah_Gou]

I'd argue Archangel's arc being lightspeed rather than Gowther's arrows honestly.

 

[ByAsura]

There's 2 Full Counters. I included both.

As for shrugging it off, Escanor goes from this (before Full Counter) to this (after FC). So he took virtually no damage and walked it off.

It's stated that Archangel light is magic, so that's invalidated by wiki rules. This, combined with properties that violate light, means that we can't use it. Regardless of whether or not I agree, my hands are tied unless someone revises light rules entirely.

 

[Ah_Gou]

Didn't notice your separate tags, yeah sounds logical, I somehow had the memory of the blood on his mouth appearing after the full counter.

 

[Ah_Gou]

What is the point of the Dolor, Derriere and CO Galan scaling section though? Are any of them used as a multiplier for something or it's purely for proper tier of those characters?

 

[ByAsura]

I was originally going to include the comparitive lack of damage in the OP, but he was using his Sacred Treasure against Estarossa.

The point is kind of both. I'm boosting up Drole's AP (though his striking strength and durability definitely aren't on the same level) and Derieri's physicals, while also using Derieri's newly boosted physicals as a proper reason for Island level physicals.

It was either this or downgrading everyone even further because we have no concrete reason to believe Estarossa is 30% stronger than Demon Meliodas.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Looks long will go through later but a really great job

 

[Duedate8898]

Rescaling Part 1-A - The Big Changes​

Definition of Several​

For reference, even I don't exactly agree with this section, but DemonGodMitchAubin made a good point about the definition of several on MHA content revisions.

A common definition of several is 3-4, but it's also "more than two but not many", or just an inexact and small amount. In fact, some dictionaries state that it's more than 1, or even 3. You can pretty much use any definition you want to get anything between 1 and 5, which makes our Full Counter scaling very unreliable.

Let's go through the descriptions chapter by chapter.

22 - Guila says it more than doubles the power of attacks.

115 - It's stated that Albion's attack increased several-fold.

184 - Estarossa says more than double.

238 - Chandler says several here.

331 - Full Counter doubles the size and power of attacks.

Functionally, more than 2 typically means 3 or more, but technically it can mean an infinite amount of numbers between 2 and 3. Given that Nabaka outright says double at one point (I might not have made this section otherwise), I think we should low-ball our Full Counters to a 2x increase.

Honestly, this makes way more sense because

A) we currently scale Meliodas' Prime Base form above his Post-Time Skip Demon Form, despite Diane stating outright that his power is comparable to the Ten Commandments

B) it's also more logical for Elizabeth to be capable of harming Zeldris Demon King (who was stated not to be significantly inferior to Meliodas Demon King at his very weakest level), harming Assault Mode Meliodas and being overpowered by multi-commandment Estarossa after recovering her Goddess powers

And C) If we assume everyone's 100 gigatons here (via Infinity and Limit Breaker boosts), the final Full Counter is 5.12 Teratons, which is vastly more consistent with calculations of destroying Britannia outright.

Edit: For anyone wondering, using the actual diameter of the UK IRL (the edge of Stac an Dunain to St Lawrence) as our radius gets 64 teratons.

Drole, Derieri and Critical Over Galand Rescaling​

Bear with me, this is important for later.

Firstly, while Drole is far inferior to Meliodas, it's probably not an 8x gap. Drole power is described as being on a similar level to Diane, whose physical strength is on par with Demon Meliodas. The guy was fighting Meliodas with a Sacred Treasure and being constantly healed/torn apart so he couldn't fight in concert with Gloxinia, so it's reasonable that he was being overwhelmed so heavily.

This doesn't mean Drole is physically on par with Meliodas, though, this is just his overall fighting ability with magic and earth manipulation. In terms of physical ability, he's in an unknown place between Unsealed Base Meliodas and Derieri/Godless Zeldris.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people downscaling Derieri (not that I'm saying it's a bad thing, mind you) because we don't have any feats with Combo Star. So I'll try to use some creative scaling here with Critical Over Galand.

I argued against this in the past, but I looked into the raws. What Melascula says is

• 「臨界突破」はガランの武力を極限まで高める単純にして強力無比の魔力よ

This translates very roughly to

• "Critical Over" is a simple and powerful magical power that raises the force of Galan to the limit

The characters 武力 translate to force, military power/force, etc. The physical strength aspect of power levels the series have the same kanji. Even if they aren't referring to the category directly, it's explicit that it only boosts his physical abilities. This places Critical Over Galand's strength at 37,000, which surpasses Drole. Yet he could only scratch Escanor with a weapon, who was at a 50,000 and increasing every few seconds well after Galand hit him (so his power level was under 50,000 when the attack occurred).

Escanor is someone with a lot of magic, such as energy blasts like Cruel Sun, and pride in himself (I believe this is partially what constitutes spirit, but could be wrong). A similarly prideful character like Galand with virtually no magical attacks has 3,000 (1,000 magic and 2,000 spirit). So it's likely that his overall combat power is in the same overall league as Derieri, a largely physical fighter whose strength is 48,000 and whole power level is 52,000.

This is all substantiated by the fact that Drole has a very low physical strength compared to his overall power level, and Derieri having a power level exceeding Escanor's with a physical strength overall comparable to her overall combat class.

So, we can conclude that Derieri surpasses Drole's physicals to a similar extent to Demon Meliodas, which is very likely because Derieri's physical strength far surpasses Drole and is close to Demon Meliodas'.

In terms of the full counter number, I'm neutral. While I think it kinda weird to not just use times 3 since normally when people think of several its in whole numbers with no regards for integers, I can see a need to not overblow multipliers.

Past that, in regards to the Drole stuff. Not really sure if we can call what Magicula was saying as comparing their actual power. I think she could've also have been just saying that they have the same power. But the rest does seem to make sense to me.

Part 1-B - New Full Counter Scaling​

I just want to mention here that I'm not trying to invalidate our entire Full Counter scaling, merely picking some holes so that we can tighten our scaling.

Taking something 2 as strong as yourself doesn't require twice your own durability, but it's also a very different animal if a character destroys an enemy capable of at least withstanding their own attack. For example, if Meliodas vaporized Galand, who withstood his own Full Counter, it's reasonable to claim that he's 2x stronger than Galand.

Invalid Full Counters (+ Diane stuff)​

Twigo took damage from his Full Counter, so his durability should just scale to his physical strength, with the Full Countered attack acting as justification.

Escanor's Full Counter is very questionable. While the Perfect Cube does redirect attacks back at its user, Meliodas had already Full Countered the Cruel Sun before hand, causing it to explode into the side of the arena. I do think the bulk of the blast was redirected towards them considering the location of the cloud in the last image (roughly the centre, which is a little bit further out than where Meliodas and Escanor were), but he would have only withstood a large portion of it due to his lack of surface area.

Albion didn't really tank its own attack. Its mouth was heavily damaged, and Albion is later obliterated by its own blasts. However, it's reasonable to say someone like Post-Training Diane is well over 2x stronger than Albion (12.6 megatons) because she one-shot an Albion, whereas Full Countered attacks that were going to harm or kill Arthur did little.

New Scaling​

Derieri tanked her own Full Countered attack without using her darkness as protection. Post-Timeskip Meliodas heavily damaged her, even to the point of punching out her ribs. Since we've established why Derieri isn't too far from Meliodas, we can replace the Assault Mode Full Counter with Derieri's Full Counter.

This means Estarossa and Post-Time Skip Meliodas start off as just under 6.6 gigatons.

As for the rest, there's so many transformation multipliers that I think we should discuss everything else.

Even though Twigo took damage, he did still tank that first full counter from Meliodas. I feel it should still be useful for scaling.
For Escanor, I also think it still works because the mechanics of perfect cube means it should still reflect even the explosions created by cruel sun back towards those in the center and since the area is so small they would have to absorb most of the damage from the attacks before it would meaningfully dissipate. At least that makes sense to me.
Albion I also still is fair to scale as well. Even if its mouth is bleeding and roughed up, the damage is overall superficial since the demon can keep fighting with seemingly no issue.
Overall I think this scaling chain is still good.
Not sure where Derieri would place within this scaling chain though

Part 2 - BoS Characters​

I've made a new calculation that was accepted for Red Demons, which isn't an outlier because of this new Ban calculation. Anything on par with a Red can be bumped up to 1.5 megatons.

The Sins/Red & Gray Hendrickson​

Ban, of course, scales to the Red Demon. His overall power level is far higher, and he was obliterating it with a weapon. For reference, this isn't a Sacred Treasure, and Ban does about the same damage to Red Demon Hendrickson with a weapon as he does without (blood and lost teeth).

As we established in the previous thread (and was agreed to), Meliodas is several times higher than Ban. Because of the inconsistencies, I took a loot at the raws. The Kanji is 数発, which translates to several blows. With our new definition, this places him at 3 megatons. Diane is far superior to Meliodas to the point of rivalling him at human size, so Small City level+ seems reasonable. This may not seem like enough for an upscale, but she began overwhelming Meliodas after growing slightly, so the difference isn't marginal.

King is superior to the Sins even while suppressing his power (he didn't use his full power until the Helbram fight), so he's at least Small City level+. This is because, unlike them, he constantly kept his Sacred Treasure.

Gowther's much more complicated. At the very least, we know he's far stronger than the likes of Guila and easily cut off 2nd Drole's head, who could at least make the Dawn Roar (whose leader is as strong as Ban) struggle, but is comparable to a character that had her neck easily snapped by Ban. I think at most Small City level is reasonable.

Now for Hendrickson (see why base Hendrickson isn't comparable to Meliodas without weaponry below). Red Demon Hendrickson was on par with the Sins, even being harmed by Ban and fighting on par with Meliodas, while Gray Hendrickson has the power of a Demon more powerful than Howzer and Gilthunder's weaponry (see below) after they'd grown stronger since the Kingdom Infiltration arc. So he's way higher than 6 megatons. City level seems reasonable.

Lower Holy Knights​

We've agreed to drop the Baste calculation, and I've done some new calculations here, so I'll look at some values for Ruin and lower Holy Knights.

Let's ignore the statements that 10 Holy Knights are comparable to a Sin, because 1 Holy Knight would also = 1,000 Knights, who pretty much only have Street level to Wall level feats. I'm pretty sure it's exclusively based on all Sins exceeding 300, while Sins exceed 3,000.

Helbram normally has a power level of 1,400 (which is considerably lowered by his shapeshifting powers and Hendrickson's first resurrection), but a portion of 20 Holy Knights' power allows him to outlcass a casual King (who was still grossly above Red Demon Blood-amped Guila and Jericho w/Sacred Treasure-like weapons) and initially overwhelm Berserk Meliodas. A fraction of Hendrickson's strength did allow Helbram to one-shot Meliodas after he was being overwhelmed, but it's worth noting that they don't actually give him their full strength until his rematch with King, in which he was already on par with a Holy Knight Captain with just a handfull of Knights before they substantially amp his power with the full extent of their abilities.

Also, the anti-magic force protecting Camelot Castle (which has a military force rivalling Liones) were able to stop a single attack from Albion by using all of their strength. A second would have at least damaged Arthur.

It's not like the Weird Fangs don't have their own feats. Ruin was able to make Meliodas bleed, and both he and Friesia managed to barely survive a beating from Meliodas and Diane.

So, imo, the Weird Fangs and low-level Holy Knights could easily be in the Large Town level range, but they're far inferior to the Sins (like 1 Sin = a dozen or more average Holy Knights). The Weird Fangs are a very elite group of Holy Knights in the Ruby Category. This is substantiated by the fact that they have power levels well over 400, while baseline Holy Knights exceed 300. However, they're below Platinum, Diamond and Emerald ranks like the Dawn Roar, Pleiades of the Azure Sky and Gilthunder.

On another note, Ochre Demons can harm a somewhat injured New Holy War Arc Howzer, with it being implied that the Demon would have have killed him if Elaine didn't intervene. So we can at least put the strongest Ochres, who have a power level between the highest and lowest values of a Red Demon, somewhat near Howzer's durability. So these new ratings are consistent with what we've seen from Holy Knights.

High-level Holy Knights​

We know the power levels of Red Demons, but not the specific values. This is a problem, as it's stated that Denzel is too weak to harm a Red Demon (probably a huge exaggeration, but I checked the raws and the line is apparently a little more accurate than this), suggesting that even most high-level Holy Knights without Sacred Treasures are inferior a Red Demon, which makes at least some sense because even Ban had a very difficult time winning even with a weapon, and it's implied a Red could have killed Slader well after he'd done training in Istar (his power had at least grown enough to take down a Copper Demon with no damage alongside Simon and East Liones' Holy Knights).

Which brings me onto another point. The weapons that high-level Holy Knights have are similar in quality Sacred Treasures. For example, Howzer's able to channel tornadoes through his blade because it's a Sacred Treasure, although the characters don't actually need Sacred Treasures to channel their powers through weaponry. Even later into the series, all of their power levels are far inferior to the Sins, but the likes of Gilthunder and Hendrickson are directly on par with Meliodas due to their weapons.

Guila's case is similar, but slightly different. She didn't have a Sacred Treasure until the Vaizel Arc, but she's able to somewhat harm Meliodas and kind of fight him, but her physical strength is massively below his (and even inferior to Dogedo), she's clearly at a disadvantage on purely physical terms, and he was weakened by constant explosions.

Something like Large Town level to Small City level physically makes sense, while they get Small City level/Higher with weaponry. In Guila's case she'd get Large Town level physically due to her physical strength being similar to Ruin's entire power level, and Small City level+ with weaponry due to being able to moderately harm Diane.

Apprentices​

On this note, I may as well go after the Holy Knight apprentices.

This calculation here doesn't really make much sense. Shear strength is a material's ability to resist parts its internal volume from moving against itself—effectively, it's the maximum force something can take before its structure falls apart. This isn't internal volume, however, just one large fragment that Twigo cut out. If we use a quarter of the surface area of an ellipsoid multiplied by the area of the width of a sword (0.7112 cm), we get Building level for pulverization.

The perspective on the original calculation is very bad, but it's also not that inaccurate because it's similar to what we see when Elizabeth is standing in front of the shockwave.

Fortunately, we have 2 calcs exceeding 20 tons of TNT, so they're still City Block level.

I agree with this.

Potential Speed Upgrade​

I don't agree with this myself because of how inconsistent it is, but I promised to include it in the CRT.

In one of the databooks, it's stated that Gowther fires light. This is the text.

瘡蓋の記憶(リライト・ライト)

魔力消費量:★★

神器から光の魔力を放ち、撃たれた者の記 憶を一時的に改竄する催眠術のような技。

ゴウセルの身体に埋め込ま れ、腕から発現する光の弓 矢。瘡蓋の記憶、などの一 斉掃射が可能になる。光とはいえ実体は存在して おり、武器による相手の攻撃 を受け止めることもできる。

I can't do an exact translation, but it's stated that he fires either light (the intangible form of his attacks) or can fire light with physical presence (another reason why I don't agree). It specifically mentions that Diane was also dodging light arrows in chapter 113.

I did a rough calculation, and BoS Mini-Diane would be Relativistic+.

Diane's Golems​

Drole's Golems never withstood any attacks from the Spirit Spear. Basically, Drole's proxy was underground while Gloxinia's was vaporized. I'd say they still upscale because Drole's proxy almost knocked out Diane and prepared to impale her.

Why Meliodas' Attack Likely Isn't Vaporization​

This isn't to say there's no way at least part of the crater was vaporized, just that a substantial portion wasn't.

Sketches​

Just to get this out of the way, the sketches are non-canonical. They're just storyboards for the anime.

Setting that fact aside, people use this chapter as justification of vaporization. I don't know why that is either, but I think it's this panel. However, that's the effects of dragons obliterating Danafor. It may also be Meliodas stating that fires raged for some length of time, but this doesn't actually suggest that Meliodas vaporized Danafor, only that it had some heat-based aspect.

As for the destruction itself, it matches up closely with what we see in the Istar arc.

Now, let's address the anime that these storyboards were adapted into.

Season 3 Episode 4​

There's a massive number of problems with this scene.

First and foremost. There's a big puff of what appears to be steam, but a massive amount of molten rock that produces smoke is at the bottom of the crater. A large portion of the surface is also shattered beforehand. Assuming this is 100% vaporization is completely illogical.

Secondly, it doesn't line up with any canonical portrayal except the storyboards. In fact, it doesn't even line up with the storyboards either because there's no tendrils or explosion of darkness.

Lastly, this is non-canonical. I can see why it's being used as evidence, but with both this and the storyboards being non-canonical, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Chapter 181​

This panel here is used as evidence, but the problem is that steam really don't look like this in Seven Deadly Sins. It's most likely darkness and fire attacks/darkness-based fire attacks.

• Dragon attacks.
• Meliodas' God Ripper.
• Meliodas' amped punch.
• A Tyrant Dragons' flame breath.
• Hawk's Red Demon attacks.
• Zeldris' attacks.
• Albions' attacks.
• Meliodas DK's hermit.
• Meliodas' God Ripper.
• Zeldris DK's God Slayer.

However, it also resembles smoke created by darkness attacks themselves. So it very well might be heat based, but I'd argue that they're closer to the demons' fireballs in appearance. And you could argue that normal explosions are closer as well. Also, this is smoke, not steam, so this is likely not even vaporization regardless.

Original Demon's Storm​

Some people are planning to recalculate this, so I'm going to show why it's not necessarily the best idea.

The storm appears to thin out as it gets closer to Camelot.

• Stars are seen above the building.
• There's a night sky from Zeldris' perspective.
• Night sky to Escanor and Merlin's right.
• More starry night sky.
• A night sky despite clouds being entirely visible in this panel.
• Ditto for this panel.
• When Escanor is launched, there's swathes of land that the storm doesn't cover.
• There are blatantly no clouds above Camelot here, here, here and here.

It's also inconsistent as to whether or not the clouds extend over the horizon. For example, we see the horizon is completely occluded by white in some panels. Yet there's twice as many panels where the sky is either jet black or starry, suggesting that the clouds don't extend over the horizon. This is most apparent when Mael parts them.

As for the biggest inconsistency, Ban is with the other Sins in chapter 292, who were near the edge of the storm after they defeated Mael and waited for Gowther to appear the whole time. Yet, the clouds proceed to disappear utterly even before Mael parts them. He later very quickly goes to the assault team, suggesting they weren't too far from the Assault Team, who were almost directly between Liones and Camelot, and there's no clouds there either. But then there's clouds right back where Mael and Gowther are as well as the Sins (who've began to approach Camelot) in the next chapter.

So the storm is massively inconsistent in size, position and uniformity. It actually gets even worse when they get closer to Camelot.

The lightspeed stuff, I'm neutral on, leaning towards disagreeing. Just seems a bit weird I think for him to have lightspeed attacks.
For the Danaford thing, I have no real feelings towards it in general but the anime depicts the scene as just smoke billowing up so do with that what you will.
No idea how cloud calcs work so I won't say anything on the Original Demon's calc either.

Splitting Meliodas​

My suggestion here is that we split Meliodas into multiple profiles.

This includes Pre-Curse

Meliodas from 3,000 years ago was, at first, a monster who'd crush any Goddess he could. He then turned to their side, and was killed by the Demon King, who proceeded to grant him Immortality. This version had the commandment of Love in the past, but no Immortality.

Post-Curse

This covers the incarnation of Meliodas who'd lost most of his abilities after some (unknown) amount of time. Basically, the one that we see in the series, and the one who returns from Purgatory after defeating the Demon King.

Post-Time Skip

This is Meliodas after he was killed by the Ten Commandments. He's lost most of his emotions and scarified even more to become Assault Mode. At the end of it all, he's possessed by the Demon King and killed by the Sins.

I'll make a sandbox for each when we've discussed all the ratings.

I feel like I can support a separation in profiles for Pre-Curse Meliodas and Post-Curse, but I don't think we should do a Post-Time Skip profile. I don't think there's a big enough difference in abilities and stats to support a need for three whole profiles.

 

[ByAsura]

In terms of the full counter number, I'm neutral. While I think it kinda weird to not just use times 3 since normally when people think of several its in whole numbers with no regards for integers, I can see a need to not overblow multipliers.

Typically, that's true (hence my overall agreement in the OP), but nobody's ever specified multipliers and double has been used, which can just be argued as rounding down from a multiplier that's not 3x. This is supported by the fact that nobody just says triple or quadruple to begin with, just 'more than double' or terms with similar meaning to 'more than double'.

Also, overblowing multipliers in this case is actually Full Counter scaling we have now. Otherwise featless characters wouldn't be 18x Island level if not for these tenuous multipliers.

Past that, in regards to the Drole stuff. Not really sure if we can call what Magicula was saying as comparing their actual power. I think she could've also have been just saying that they have the same power.

They're giants capable of manipulating earth and Diane punched Melascula, so that doesn't make too much sense. I guess I'll look into the raws, though.

Edit: Looked into the raws. It says the same thing. Also, Melascula was specifically talking about power, not abilities, beforehand (this line is also accurate to the raws).

Even though Twigo took damage, he did still tank that first full counter from Meliodas. I feel it should still be useful for scaling.

As I pointed out, being able to one-shot and heavily damage Twigo is applicable, it's just not actually equal to his own durability.

For Escanor, I also think it still works because the mechanics of perfect cube means it should still reflect even the explosions created by cruel sun back towards those in the center and since the area is so small they would have to absorb most of the damage from the attacks before it would meaningfully dissipate. At least that makes sense to me.

But they're not in the centre to begin with, and it's still an omni-directional attack that covers most of the entire cube even after being reflected.

Albion I also still is fair to scale as well. Even if its mouth is bleeding and roughed up, the damage is overall superficial since the demon can keep fighting with seemingly no issue.

It's a toy made of stone. Also, if you had no pain (not saying Albion does, just giving an example of tolerance vs durability), I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be that hard not to fight if you had a hole in your cheek, but that doesn't mean your durability scales to that attack.

I feel like I can support a separation in profiles for Pre-Curse Meliodas and Post-Curse, but I don't think we should do a Post-Time Skip profile. I don't think there's a big enough difference in abilities and stats to support a need for three whole profiles.

It's a pretty massive difference in stats. His base form alone is superior to the previous form's demon mark, and this form gets possessed and killed after his original returns.

Hell, you could apply this exact logic to Pre-Curse if you really wanted. The 1 singular difference is Immortality and Resurrection, both of which are hardly applicable to this form.

 

[Duedate8898]

But they're not in the centre to begin with, and it's still an omni-directional attack that covers most of the entire cube even after being reflected.

My point here is that the nature of the perfect cube means the explosion itself would still be redirected back at them until it couldn't be redirected anymore since its still magic, so they would get bombarded with most of the ap that went into the attack.

It's a toy made of stone. Also, if you had no pain (not saying Albion does, just giving an example of tolerance vs durability), I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be that hard not to fight if you had a hole in your cheek, but that doesn't mean your durability scales to that attack.

My point here is that the damage, overall for the Albion is superfical. Not to mention, we've allowed scaling for just barely surviving attacks or surviving attacks in general. I see no reason for this to be an exception.

It's a pretty massive difference in stats. His base form alone is superior to the previous form's demon mark, and this form gets possessed and killed after his original returns.

Hell, you could apply this exact logic to Pre-Curse if you really wanted.

I support two separate profiles because of that massive ap difference and the different abilities that Pre-Curse and Post-Curse Meliodas has. However, I don't support three because we already put Demon King Meliodas on the Demon King's profile and because I feel we can fit Post-Timeskip Meliodas with Post-Curse meliodas with relatively little issue.

 

[ByAsura]

We only saw it redirect once, plus this doesn't happen to Escanor's shockwaves (probably meaning it reflects actual attacks, not effects of attacks), and it'd be reflecting smaller portions of Escanor's explosion over a much larger area since A) it's an omni-directional attack even after it hits Escanor, and B) Escanor, Meliodas and the ground would have taken off a large portion of it.

It's like claiming that taking one half of an attack and then taking the other half at a later time and over larger surface area means you're comparable to the combined output of both attacks.

Also, just a technicality, but the Cube reflects physical and magical attacks.

It doesn't matter if it's superficial (which it's not), upscaling from its durability doesn't really make sense. In all of these instances, they typically downscale from an attack of this nature, not scale to twice their own AP. It's unwarranted.

I'd still argue that it makes a lot more sense to separate a resurrected incarnation of Meliodas that's semi-evil, becomes evil, gets possessed and dies, but this is just my opinion against your opinion at this point. Also, just to clarify, I was never arguing to have his Demon King stats on this profile.

 

[Theendzero13]

Ok lets start:

- currently most verses use "several" as a 3 times increase, i don't know why it should be different for NNT, if this get passed all the "several" times multiplier need to get downgraded as well, but i honestly don't think that is the best course of action, several is more than two by many definitions and when you say more than two on a conversation your average joe would be more likely to think of three instead of two + a random decimal number

- gowther's attacks simply not fit lightspeed criteria ( i don't think they fit anything beyond being made of light ) even then the arrows diane dodged would fall under being a "construct" , you would be better of arguing ark is lightspeed but that was already rejected into oblivion

- on the topic of escanor sacling to the full countered cruel sun i agree with your points but would like to also say:

-cruel sun can damage chandler and cusack, showing it scales to them , and the two scale to asssault mode meli

-the cruel sun covered the entire cube after being reflected, logically hitting mel as well, but despite that mel was unnafected despite on the very next page being damaged by escanor's regular punch

- against estarossa escanor had his attack full countered and the damage taken is visually far greater than the one taken by the cruel sun full counter and any of assult mode mel attacks , with the possible exception being when mel amped lostvayne with hellblaze ( for those with difficult to visualize that just look at the amount of blood loss escanor had against estarossa's full counter and compare it to the bloody loss done by assaul mel's attacks

With those points it seens like the cruel sun reflection is a case of AOE and surface area, where neither mel nor escanor tanked the full yield


For the rest i agree with everything

 

[Peter1129]

Because, as I just explained, 3 isn't even a set definition for several.

The fact that nobody in the series says 3/triple probably means that it isn't even 3.

Okay uhh just saying in Japanese the definition of several is outright said to be 3 at the very minimum. It can’t go any lower then that.

数倍(すうばい)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク

精選版 日本国語大辞典 - 数倍の用語解説 - 〘名〙 三～四倍、五～六倍ぐらいであることを、ばくぜんという語。また、そのくらいの差のあることもいう。※伊蘇普物語（1873）〈渡部温訳〉四四「例年にまさる結果ありて、利市(りえき)数倍なりければ」※文化防衛論（1968）〈三島由紀夫〉日...

kotobank.jp

 

[ByAsura]

Ok lets start:

- currently most verses use "several" as a 3 times increase, i don't know why it should be different for NNT, if this get passed all the "several" times multiplier need to get downgraded as well, but i honestly don't think that is the best course of action, several is more than two by many definitions and when you say more than two on a conversation your average joe would be more likely to think of three instead of two + a random decimal number

MHA doesn’t, and Nabaka almost seems to be outright against the idea.

- gowther's attacks simply not feet lightspeed criteria ( i don't think they feet anything beyond being made of light ) even then the arrows diane dodged would fall under being a "construct" , you would be better of arguing ark is lightspeed but that was already rejected into oblivion

Agreed.

Okay uhh just saying in Japanese the definition of several is outright said to be 3 at the very minimum. It can’t go any lower then that.

数倍(すうばい)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク

精選版 日本国語大辞典 - 数倍の用語解説 - 〘名〙 三～四倍、五～六倍ぐらいであることを、ばくぜんという語。また、そのくらいの差のあることもいう。※伊蘇普物語（1873）〈渡部温訳〉四四「例年にまさる結果ありて、利市(りえき)数倍なりければ」※文化防衛論（1968）〈三島由紀夫〉日...

kotobank.jp

Same problem as the OP. That’s one definition of several. It can also be seen as some, various, multiple and similar words.

 

[Peter1129]

The links in the description don’t work. So I couldn’t see any of the raw panels outside of the last one that says double.

 

[ByAsura]

I’ll try rectify that tomorrow.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Following for now, but I have two major things to say

1. I disagree with making the Full Counter Multiplier 2x, more than 2x along with quite a few statements of “several” make Full Counter being a 3x Multiplier entirely acceptable, as much as I don’t like NNT, I don’t agree with this downgrade

2. Being made of light =/= light speed, it’s dumb, but that’s the way VSBW handles things, just because Gowther fires arrows of light, doesn’t mean anything here, I’ve seen things that were called “Beams of light” get rejected, so yeah, sadly that’s where we are

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. I disagree with making the Full Counter Multiplier 2x, more than 2x along with quite a few statements of “several” make Full Counter being a 3x Multiplier entirely acceptable, as much as I don’t like NNT, I don’t agree with this downgrade

It was stated to be several e.t.c but it was later at the end of the series to be “double the actual attack”
So it’s not a downgrade

 

[Theendzero13]

Can anyone double check the raws for chapter 331, it is very weird for them to call full counter to be more than a 2 times multiplier just to call it to be exactly 2 times at the very end

 

[Zezu1995]

tbh i forgot derieri tanked a 2x full counter like nothing... thats a good feat

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, so I've replaced the scans in the OP with ones that should hopefully be visible.

Now, I'll break this down one-by-one unless they're the same verbage.

In chapter 22, the term used is 魔力を 倍以上.

魔力 means magical power

を is something vaguely similar strengthen, I believe, in this context.

倍 means to increase something two-fold.

以上 means to exceed.

Estarossa uses 倍以上 on later in his sentence since he's saying physical attacks will be redirected with more than double the power.

The Knight says 数倍 in chapter 115 (the same term used by Chandler), which translates to several times. Notice that the second character is identical to two. However, the term itself can have multiple meanings, like multiple itself. In fact, the only times I could find 3-4 is without the 倍 and just with the 数. Another I found was apparently some, often pointing to around 3-10, but A) I could never find another definition like that, B) they admit the definition is loose, and C) the operating word is around.

Edit: There's one definition that says 3-4, but it also says 5-6 and that it can be vague.

The character in 330 is just 倍 with no bells and whistles.

So, yeah, if anything they're saying 2x whenever they say several.

1. I disagree with making the Full Counter Multiplier 2x, more than 2x along with quite a few statements of “several” make Full Counter being a 3x Multiplier entirely acceptable, as much as I don’t like NNT, I don’t agree with this downgrade

This is really just the same point over and over again. Also, if someone frequently says more than double and actually says double, it's probably not going to be triple.

2. Being made of light =/= light speed, it’s dumb, but that’s the way VSBW handles things, just because Gowther fires arrows of light, doesn’t mean anything here, I’ve seen things that were called “Beams of light” get rejected, so yeah, sadly that’s where we are

Agreed.

It's dumb, but it also stops something that's obviously a huge outlier. If we accepted everything like this when it doesn't really make sense, we'd have 33x SoL Oslo.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

Potential Speed Upgrade

The other speed feats make this an outlier.

New Scaling

Post-Revival Meliodas and Estarossa should be At least Island level since Full Counter is >2x.