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Why divide by 2, and U7 is actually 4.4x baseline 3-A. The living world has the universe and the demon realm. The afterlife is at least the size of the living world and the realm of the Kai is 1/10th the size of the globe. Hence 4.4x.
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Dragon Ball Super Manga Downgrades
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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That's true, the DB universe is bigger than our universe.
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Because there's 2 people. In the manga, there's no evidence that it was going to the Otherworld or Demon Realm, just the Kai Realm, which is far smaller than the Living World.
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Hmmm. I’d argue that it’s only coming from Goku because he can’t control his power while Beerus can, but dividing by 2 is fine.
Woah there. Elder Kai said the whole universe. It wouldn’t make even sense for the shockwaves to reach the realm of the Kai and not the afterlife. Especially when the afterlife is closer to the living universe while the Kai realm is farther away.
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That's the anime version of events. None of that happened in the manga.
What he said is that the entire universe is in jeopardy. The term universe can mean one or all of those portions. It's "Living World" that completely combines the Demon Realm and normal universe as one.
What he said is that the entire universe is in jeopardy. The term universe can mean one or all of those portions. It's "Living World" that completely combines the Demon Realm and normal universe as one.
- The Living World is also called the Present World. To be frank, it means the vast universe. This universe is divided into four galaxies; other than that, it is known that there is a chaotic place called the Devil Realm somewhere in the universe. The sections known as the East-West-North-South Galaxies only utilize Kami as administration units, and the lifeforms who reside in the Living World are able to freely travel the galaxies. Of course, that is supposing they have the technology...
- A spiritual world where souls that have lost their physical bodies exist. It is the so-called world after death, as well as a world where the Kami who govern the entire universe reside. Also called the "Heavenly Realm." It is divided into the four smaller worlds of the Enma Realm, the Kaiou Realm, the Kaioushin Realm, and Hell, and each realm is governed by King Enma, the Kaiou, and the Kaioushin. The manager for Hell is King Enma.
- The Universe The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
- Area Means each region of the universe, which is divided into East, West, South, North. It is expressed as the "East Area" and the "West Area." The areas divided into East, West, South, North are governed by respective Kaiou. [Par.] Like the universe, the Demon Realm is also divided into multiple areas.
- The Living World A general term for the world that combines the entire universe and the Demon Realm. In Dragon Ball's world-view, there is the airtight universe, and there is the Demon Realm that takes the appearance of the reverse side of that. In contrast to 'The World Beyond' where everyone that dies resides, it is basically the world where those with lives reside. The lifeforms who live in the Living World are souls from the World Beyond that have reincarnated. Also called the present world.
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It wouldn’t have reached the realm of the Kai if it was just the living world. Generally speaking, we always assume all of U7 when they say “whole” or “entire” universe. I feel like you’re just cherry picking.
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I didn't say he didn't reach it (I mean in the second quote, I admit I did in the first), I said there's no evidence that he would have destroyed it.
We never have because there's no situations in which that has happened. In these kinds of situations (like Beerus or Zeno destroying everything), we typically assume it's the Otherworld, Living World and Kai Realm. The characters within the manga also use these terms interchangeably.
I'm not cherry-picking, you just don't have proof that he was going to destroy the entire Living World. The feat itself would have also taken time.
We never have because there's no situations in which that has happened. In these kinds of situations (like Beerus or Zeno destroying everything), we typically assume it's the Otherworld, Living World and Kai Realm. The characters within the manga also use these terms interchangeably.
I'm not cherry-picking, you just don't have proof that he was going to destroy the entire Living World. The feat itself would have also taken time.
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How could the shockwaves reach it but not destroy it but reach the Kai world but destroy that? Huh?
If it was vague? Maybe but there’s context.
Let’s see. The shockwaves reached the realm of the Kai, way beyond the living world’s range, and Elder Kai literally said “At this rate the entire universe will be destroyed!!!”
C’mon man, this is a burden of proof fallacy, you’re better than that.
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Because the Kai World is far smaller than the Demon Realm. It didn't have to fully destroy it. Also, the shockwaves were only reaching the Kai Realm and didn't seem very destructive.
The only context given is that it'd destroy the universe.
Let's see here: the shockwaves were only reaching the Kai Realm, with no statements that it'd actually destroy it. The term "Universe" is very often used interchangeably, with it typically referring to only the normal universe, especially throughout the Buu Saga.
The burden of proof is on you, and it seems you're not good enough to give anything substantive.
Now, how about a compromise? We could say "possibly far higher" or something like that.
The only context given is that it'd destroy the universe.
Let's see here: the shockwaves were only reaching the Kai Realm, with no statements that it'd actually destroy it. The term "Universe" is very often used interchangeably, with it typically referring to only the normal universe, especially throughout the Buu Saga.
The burden of proof is on you, and it seems you're not good enough to give anything substantive.
Now, how about a compromise? We could say "possibly far higher" or something like that.
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You could apply inverse square law to the feat, you'd get ******* huge results from it. Only issue I think there would be with that would be the whole gets stronger the further away it is, which is the opposite of what's supposed to happen. I know why in the anime but i forget if it was explained in the manga.
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The size doesn’t matter kek. It’s the distance, and it’s farther compared to the afterlife. Btw you saying it doesn’t seem destructive is not only a path to [headcanon], but sounds like the logic downplayers use to say Goku wasn’t even gonna destroy earth.
I already said why this is wrong. Stop stonewalling and using circular reasoning.
Didn’t think you’d stoop that low my guy, I’m speechless.
[Reverse burden of proof]
You’re idea of back scaling from 3-A peaked my interest. Especially when they’re at the edge of the universe.
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The shockwaves aren’t stated to get stronger in the manga.
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Size does matter in this case. Basically, my point is you have to prove it was even destructive beyond the universe.
It's not circular reasoning, it's a lack of proof on your end. You've given enough evidence that the shockwaves were probably reaching the Demon Realm, but no proof that they were going to destroy it.
Yes, because they very well didn't say the Kai Realm would be destroyed. By this same logic, you could claim it was going to destroy the Otherworld as well.
I'm just not even going to bother with this one.
Not really sure what this is supposed to mean, but I'll just give my suggestion anyway.
It's not circular reasoning, it's a lack of proof on your end. You've given enough evidence that the shockwaves were probably reaching the Demon Realm, but no proof that they were going to destroy it.
Yes, because they very well didn't say the Kai Realm would be destroyed. By this same logic, you could claim it was going to destroy the Otherworld as well.
I'm just not even going to bother with this one.
Not really sure what this is supposed to mean, but I'll just give my suggestion anyway.
- Attack Potency: Multi-Galaxy level (The clash between Super Saiyan God Goku and Beerus was shaking the universe from its edge, with Elder Kai even claiming that the entire cosmos was in jeopardy. Eventually surpassed this level of power to overpower Beerus' attack), possibly far higher (Elder Kai's statement could have referred to the entire Living World, which consists of the Universe and Demon Realm of equal size. This is substantiated by the fact that their combined shockwaves were reaching the World of the Kais, which is the most remote region of Universe 7)
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Okay, so, I'm assuming that SSG Goku will remain at 3-B, albeit possibly at a much lower level? What about Zamasu and everyone who scales to/above him?
And I still stand by my belief that 3-A for GoDs and comparable/stronger people should be downgraded, as it hinges on a single statement that I strongly consider to be vague.
And I still stand by my belief that 3-A for GoDs and comparable/stronger people should be downgraded, as it hinges on a single statement that I strongly consider to be vague.
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Doubt it, literally nothing has changed in regards to 3-B between now and before this thread. A few clashes would **** the universe, that was how it was treated before the thread, that's how it's still being treated even now, no new information was brought that would change that, both in regards to it being higher or lower (except maybe inverse square law) so the tier of 3-B, by all accounts, would be literally the exact same.
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We should probably get back on topic, yes. The downgrade to galaxy level was pretty much rejected so there is no point in discussing it and the BoG feat anymore. I already gave my views on the GoD 3-A thing, and some people seemed to agree without anybody posting any counterarguments against that.
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So what are the conclusions here so far? I haven't read much of the thread, but Warren seemed to make sense to me.
Also, we should still strive for 1 CRT per verse at a time, as we are overwhelmed enough as it is with too much work to do.
Also, we should still strive for 1 CRT per verse at a time, as we are overwhelmed enough as it is with too much work to do.
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As far as I'm aware, many people agree that the only change that should be made is changing the 3-A characters to "At least 3-B, possibly 3-A"
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No, only thing that everyone agreed on is the 3-B feat being 3-B and not lower as the OP said. The 3-A part has barely been touched at all.
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Really? I thought Zamasu and Warren brought up the 3-B, possibly 3-A proposal.
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So possible reasons to keep finite universal in the manga:
Beerus just utterly one shot post-Black Complete Blue Vegeta, who is a potara level amp higher than his prior self who with the Gamma Burst Flash annihilated two Fused Zamasu, while not even trying, who after the HTC bullied Black in Rosè while in God and normal Blue with Fusion Zamasu being much stronger than Goku Black who with one Zenkai alone became equal to Vegeta in Blue who just got a Senzu bean with super saiyan alone.
Jiren being above a God of Destruction being terrifying to Goku and Toppo who was about equal to normal Blue. Complete (but suppressed) Goku is far weaker. Goku is capable of using the Kaioken on top of Perfect Blue yet barely fazes Jiren. Ultra Instinct is able to contest Jiren and is GoD tier. Only thing comparable to Ultra Instinct is potara fusion by the lore of Vegito Blue~=~Beerus which is pretty consistent. Vegito Blue who ripped Zamasu in half in base while still weakened, then goes Blue and bullies Zamasu further.
Blue being multiple times stronger than God, a much stronger God at that, after 3 years of training. Goku who already surpassed the feat.
Might wanna calc this in the same vein.
There's also this
So Beerus is massively above Goku and Vegeta, who can the amp themselves dozens of times on top of Blue or even Perfected Blue, got at least dozens of times stronger if not possibly exponentially stronger than their U6 selves during the Black arc, who were 10x stronger than the U6 God who had at least 3 years of training more than the BoG God who is above the feat. Exception is UI Goku and maybe current Vegeta who again are much stronger than before as stated by Moro even in their normal Blue forms. Absolutely gargantuan gap above the feat plus minor implication of the universe getting exploded by Beerus fighting Champa.
Beerus just utterly one shot post-Black Complete Blue Vegeta, who is a potara level amp higher than his prior self who with the Gamma Burst Flash annihilated two Fused Zamasu, while not even trying, who after the HTC bullied Black in Rosè while in God and normal Blue with Fusion Zamasu being much stronger than Goku Black who with one Zenkai alone became equal to Vegeta in Blue who just got a Senzu bean with super saiyan alone.
Jiren being above a God of Destruction being terrifying to Goku and Toppo who was about equal to normal Blue. Complete (but suppressed) Goku is far weaker. Goku is capable of using the Kaioken on top of Perfect Blue yet barely fazes Jiren. Ultra Instinct is able to contest Jiren and is GoD tier. Only thing comparable to Ultra Instinct is potara fusion by the lore of Vegito Blue~=~Beerus which is pretty consistent. Vegito Blue who ripped Zamasu in half in base while still weakened, then goes Blue and bullies Zamasu further.
Blue being multiple times stronger than God, a much stronger God at that, after 3 years of training. Goku who already surpassed the feat.
Might wanna calc this in the same vein.
There's also this
So Beerus is massively above Goku and Vegeta, who can the amp themselves dozens of times on top of Blue or even Perfected Blue, got at least dozens of times stronger if not possibly exponentially stronger than their U6 selves during the Black arc, who were 10x stronger than the U6 God who had at least 3 years of training more than the BoG God who is above the feat. Exception is UI Goku and maybe current Vegeta who again are much stronger than before as stated by Moro even in their normal Blue forms. Absolutely gargantuan gap above the feat plus minor implication of the universe getting exploded by Beerus fighting Champa.
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On another note, we really shouldn't say Blue is 10x SSG on the profiles. SSB Vegeta was knocked out in seconds, while Super Saiyan God was actually superior to Hit at that same level of power. It might be like a 5 or 6 times boost, but not 10.
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Isnt it literally stated because Vegeta, at that point in time, already went blue, and blue has a huge burning of ki when transforming, so when he went up against Hit after going blue against Frost, he was like 10x weaker because doing it the first time wasted most of his ki.
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And Goku and Vegeta were equal in strength at that point in time?
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Doesnt that same panel imply that Goku got drastically stronger in that very scene though?
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I don't see how being above 3-B characters to an unknown degree makes someone 3-A. It just makes them a higher level of 3-B and that's it.
Listentomyrhytm
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I mean, you can get 3-A via scaling but in this case I don't really think so, the scaling chain would have to be massive with specific numbers and I think the 3-B peeps would have to have really high values.
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I'm in agreement with Warren, AKM Sama, KLOL, and Zamasu.
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That's not exactly a counterargument.
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It is, since that's how it works, you are not gonna get a 3-A rating based on vague arguments, stomping 3-B character still makes you only 3-B but on a higher scale
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Damn, a shame, but I have to agree we shouldn't upscale them to 3-A. It's the same reason Buu saga characters don't upscale to 4-A. 4-B and 3-B are insanely large tiers.
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I would have made a counterargument if there was an argument to begin with. Unfortunately, being stronger than 3-B isn't a valid argument for 3-A.
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