DRAGON BALL SUPER MANGA SPEED UPGRADE :O (PART 2)

[Damage3245]

Okay. I want you to explain your reasoning to me. Why can't we scale God Goku's speed value above a hypothetical SS3 Vegito? The only justification I can think of is that you think Vegito can't go Super Saiyan 3 when a pair of SS1 kids fusing can.

Well, firstly it is only the anime and movie where Goku's statement is made concerning fusion, correct? So such reasoning doesn't really belong on the manga-exlusive profiles to begin with.

The closest thing would be Vegeta explaining to the others that nobody could beat Beerus because he's the strongest God in the entire Universe, but Potara fusion wasn't an option for them at that point.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Well, firstly it is only the anime and movie where Goku's statement is made concerning fusion, correct? So such reasoning doesn't really belong on the manga-exlusive profiles to begin with.

Nah. We already went over this. Vegito is 4-B. God Goku is 2-C. Therefore God > Fusion.

If you wanna argue Vegito is actually 2-C be my guest.

 

[Omegabronic]

Vegito has never canonically tried to go Super Saiyan 3 at this point in the story, so I don't believe that these reasons are good enough to conclusively say SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito.

I'd be fine with SSG Goku > SS Vegito though.

so, this would also affect the Anime statement/SSJG Multiplier? or are you saying this specifically about the Manga continuity version of the statement?

 

[Damage3245]

so, this would also affect the Anime statement/SSJG Multiplier? or are you saying this specifically about the Manga continuity version of the statement?

I'm not interested in making a thread for the anime multiplier.

 

[Huesito88]

I'm not interested in making a thread for the anime multiplier.

Let me guess is it because of Kai now being canon to the anime?

 

[Damage3245]

Let me guess is it because of Kai now being canon to the anime?

No? I just don't care.

 

[DivineAura44]

This is an assumption that has no basis. The only reason we never see vegito go higher then ssj until the black arc is because he never needed to. And by the black arc, ssj3 was obsolete. Goku is capable of going super saiyan 3, vegito has the same knowledge, and is far more capable. It thus seems more reasonable to assume Vegito could do it, rather than can’t.

The assumption that he can do it because he has the knowledge is similarly baseless.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

The assumption that he can do it because he has the knowledge is similarly baseless.

Bro wut

 

[DivineAura44]

Bro wut

We are assuming Vegito can go Super Saiyan 3 just because Goku has the knowledge of how to do it. Knowing how to do it doesn't mean you meet the qualifications to perform it though.

Should we make a key for a hypothetical UI or Ultra Ego Vegito too? If there's no evidence, I don't see why we should index it as so.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

We are assuming Vegito can go Super Saiyan 3 just because Goku has the knowledge of how to do it. Knowing how to do it doesn't mean you meet the qualifications to perform it though.

Should we make a key for a hypothetical UI or Ultra Ego Vegito too? If there's no evidence, I don't see why we should index it as so.

Your logic is goofy because a pair of children without Super Saiyan 3 can do it. Yet you're implying a fusion of adult men, one of which actually has the form, somehow would be unable to. Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct have more to using them, such as mental states. Vegeta could interfere with Ultra Instinct and Goku could interfere with Ultra Ego. Also, no one ever mentioned giving Vegito a key for Super Saiyan 3. We're discussing form multipliers. And the argument is that God would have a higher multiplier than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

If you can justify your logic by explaining that Super Saiyan 3 has some sort of known special condition that Vegeta would somehow interfere with then sure. Otherwise no. We have every reason to think he would be capable of using it.

EDIT: Checking OP it seems like they edited it to remove the entire SS3 Vegito and God Goku thing so I'm going to stop arguing about that.

 

[DivineAura44]

Your logic is goofy because a pair of children without Super Saiyan 3 can do it. Yet you're implying a fusion of adult men, one of which actually has the form, somehow would be unable to. Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct have more to using them, such as mental states. Vegeta could interfere with Ultra Instinct and Goku could interfere with Ultra Ego. Also, no one ever mentioned giving Vegito a key for Super Saiyan 3. We're discussing form multipliers. And the argument is that God would have a higher multiplier than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

If you can justify your logic by explaining that Super Saiyan 3 has some sort of known special condition that Vegeta would somehow interfere with then sure. Otherwise no. We have every reason to think he would be capable of using it.

EDIT: Checking OP it seems like they edited it to remove the entire SS3 Vegito and God Goku thing so I'm going to stop arguing about that.

You are completely ignoring the fact that once again, this application of transforming into a form that one of the characters doesn't have, has not been shown capable by Potara style fusion.
It's entirely not my burden to prove Vegito can't go SSJ3 due to some special unfulfilled qualifications. Because I'm not claiming there's no way, I'm taking the neutral stance. The simple fact is there's
1. A possibility. (Because Vegito hasn't done it before.)
2. Potential reasoning. (Because Vegeta lacks the capability of doing so.)

As long as these two exist, I find it very unreasonable to try to justify an 8x multiplier out of hypothetical forms.

Regardless, my stance seems to be heavily pushed back against so I agree we can cease discussion on the topic for this thread at the very least.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

You are completely ignoring the fact that once again, this application of transforming into a form that one of the characters doesn't have, has not been shown capable by Potara style fusion.
It's entirely not my burden to prove Vegito can't go SSJ3 due to some special unfulfilled qualifications. Because I'm not claiming there's no way, I'm taking the neutral stance. The simple fact is there's
1. A possibility. (Because Vegito hasn't done it before.)
2. Potential reasoning. (Because Vegeta lacks the capability of doing so.)

As long as these two exist, I find it very unreasonable to try to justify an 8x multiplier out of hypothetical forms.

Regardless, my stance seems to be heavily pushed back against so I agree we can cease discussion on the topic for this thread at the very least.

1. He didn't do it because his plan wasn't to defeat Buuhan but to free the others
2. Gotenks and Trunks only had SS1 and Gotenks had SS3. Why would Vegeta interfere in the outcome? (This was accepted here before, so I deleted that part of the thread.) :v

 

[Damage3245]

In the Vegito's profile says he rivals Beerus. For the mention of Shin and the V-Jump

But the reason I disagree is because:

Toyotaro in the Comic-Con 2017 says that at the moment we don't know if this is true or not.

Also according Herms the Shin statement is about the Vegito's power and don't is 100% sure that is correct this mention

Going by this answer:

T: As Kai'shin pointed out in the final chapter of the manga, Vegetto Blue may have exceeded Beerus's power. But at the moment it is not known whether this is true or not.

Shouldn't this qualify for a Possibly rating scaling Vegito Blue to Beerus?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I honestly don't believe Vegito scales to Beerus. At all. So I'm fine with reducing it to a possibly rating or even removing it.

 

[DivineAura44]

He didn't do it because his plan wasn't to defeat Buuhan but to free the others

1. I'm aware. I don't even see why this would require SSJ1 at all but it's besides the point. If he was trying to flex his power so that he Buu would be more inclined to absorb him, wouldn't he have went to his strongest form?
I'm just saying that the fact he didn't go into SSJ3 leaves the possibility of him not being able to on the table.
2. Goten and Trunks used the Metamoran Fusion Dance. By changing it to Potara, we now have no clue of if the fusion could support a form that not both users are capable of tapping into. You are virtually changing the constants of your experiment and expecting the same dependent.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

1. I'm aware. I don't even see why this would require SSJ1 at all but it's besides the point. If he was trying to flex his power so that he Buu would be more inclined to absorb him, wouldn't he have went to his strongest form?

He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?

I'm just saying that the fact he didn't go into SSJ3 leaves the possibility of him not being able to on the table.

This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?

2. Goten and Trunks used the Metamoran Fusion Dance. By changing it to Potara, we now have no clue of if the fusion could support a form that not both users are capable of tapping into. You are virtually changing the constants of your experiment and expecting the same dependent.

Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all

 

[Omegabronic]

He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?

wasn't Vegeta dead during the fusion? so wouldn't that be mitigated regardless?

This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?

not that i agree with the other guy here but........wouldn't it be obvious that he would answer "no reason to assume he can go SSJ2 as well"? i just don't see how this is a good counter to the claim you are answering

Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all

both had SSJ2, and Kefla went only SSJ2, she never went Berserk like Kale could

 

[DivineAura44]

He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?

Wasn't he already stronger in Base too? I forget. But if the point is to scare Buu with power, SSJ3 would have been the next logical step. Also I don't think SSJ3 has drain on the dead.

This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?

Well yes, SSJ2 does fit the first qualification of possibility because he hasn't shown it.
The second isn't because there's no actual reason to believe he wouldn't have the form. Both Vegeta and Goku do.
It's not the same.

Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all

Kale went into the Super Saiyan form. Caulifla went into the Super Saiyan form.
Kefla goes into... the Super Saiyan form.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

We already accept SSJ3 Vegito being a scaling point in the anime, so take that as you will, but this is no longer a relevant topic, so let's move on.

Personally every arguement I've seen for Vegito not being able to use SSJ3 in this thread has been silly and nonsensical, but atp we are just filling up the thread with tangents that could be solved elsewhere.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

We already accept SSJ3 Vegito being a scaling point in the anime, so take that as you will, but this is no longer a relevant topic, so let's move on.

Personally every arguement I've seen for Vegito not being able to use SSJ3 in this thread has been silly and nonsensical, but atp we are just filling up the thread with tangents that could be solved elsewhere.

I really regret having put this topic, I had not found this information before making the thread.

 

[DivineAura44]

manga thread btw

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?

I didn't find any way to put a multiplier to the UI other than that it is superior to Goku in SSB Kaioken

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I didn't find any way to put a multiplier to the UI other than that it is superior to Goku in SSB Kaioken

Well ya but it's better then SS3 and SSG and SSB KKtimes 20

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?

Z Goku = 1
Z Goku SS3 = 400
Z Vegito = 400
Z SS3 Vegito would = 160,000
God Goku = >160,000
SSB = 50 x God = >8,000,000

DBS Gogeta > Goku Blue = >8,000,000
Gogeta Blue = 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 or 64,000,000,000,000

Moro-73 is fast enough that he would be relative to fusions like Gogeta and is implied to be stronger than FPSS Broly was. UI Goku blitzes and stomps Moro-73.

Assuming UI Goku is relative to Blue fusion that equates to a 64 trillion times multiplier.

 

[Damage3245]

The gap between Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct being that high seems inconsistent.

SSB Goku is able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is also able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is obviously faster and more powerful, but the gap shouldn't be as drastic as millions otherwise Gas would be being blitzed.

 

[Spinoirr]

The gap between Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct being that high seems inconsistent.

SSB Goku is able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is also able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is obviously faster and more powerful, but the gap shouldn't be as drastic as millions otherwise Gas would be being blitzed.

That's because Ultra Instinct has no set multiplier, it's always stronger then SSBE but UI is a state of mind that varies in power depending on Goku's mindset and it also adapts to his opponents too

Also SSB Goku was fighting a holding back Gas

 

[Darkmon_cns]

That's because Ultra Instinct has no set multiplier, it's always stronger then SSBE but UI is a state of mind that varies in power depending on Goku's mindset and it also adapts to his opponents too

Also SSB Goku was fighting a holding back Gas

Are you suggesting ultra instinct was actually weaker well fighting gas but at it's prime against moro?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Merus did state that the UI Goku would attain against moro a his current strengths would be far more stable than any other

So it could simply be a case of Moro arc UI and up having a much greater boost

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Merus did state that the UI Goku would attain against moro a his current strengths would be far more stable than any other

So it could simply be a case of Moro arc UI and up having a much greater boost

Unfortunately gas comes after moro so that dosen't help the present counterdiction, besides just holding back and playing with him

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Unfortunately gas comes after moro so that dosen't help the present counterdiction, besides just holding back and playing with him

I mean, Goku fighting him in both SSB and UI means one of two things

1) SSB is relative to UI, which as we see with moro, it's nowhere near close
2) Gas was sandbagging

Gas holding back is the most reasonable assumption

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I mean, Goku fighting him in both SSB and UI means one of the things

1) SSB is relative to UI, which as we see with moro, it's nowhere near close
2) Gas was sandbagging

Gas holding back is the most reasonable assumption

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks

Well I think your right

 

[Damage3245]

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks

Moro getting his arm blown off there isn't Moro holding back; Goku used a charged up Kamehameha at point-blank range to deal an attack more powerful than what he normally dishes out.

 

[Omegabronic]

Z Goku = 1
Z Goku SS3 = 400
Z Vegito = 400
Z SS3 Vegito would = 160,000
God Goku = >160,000
SSB = 50 x God = >8,000,000

DBS Gogeta > Goku Blue = >8,000,000
Gogeta Blue = 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 or 64,000,000,000,000

Forgot Kaioken and Blue Evolution

 

[Spinoirr]

Forgot Kaioken and Blue Evolution

Blue Kaioken exists in the Manga but only x2

Blue Evolved has no multiplier in the Manga tho

 

[Ednaxel2]

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks

Charged attacks scale above physicals + Goku's aura in that instance was reminiscent to when he used stressed SSB against Jiren, which is in a similar function to Kaio-ken. Meaning Goku here was far stronger than he is in Blue regularly

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Charged attacks scale above physicals + Goku's aura in that instance was reminiscent to when he used stressed SSB against Jiren, which is in a similar function to Kaio-ken. Meaning Goku here was far stronger than he is in Blue regularly

True, good catch

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

Charged attacks scale above physicals + Goku's aura in that instance was reminiscent to when he used stressed SSB against Jiren, which is in a similar function to Kaio-ken. Meaning Goku here was far stronger than he is in Blue regularly

But even reading the chapter Moro wasn't fighting seriously, he was just having fun, when Goku became UI he did fight seriously
Which is similar to when Vegeta launched his Final Flash towards Perfect Cell, and did a lot of damage to him, but in the end he was just playing

 

[Ednaxel2]

But even reading the chapter Moro wasn't fighting seriously, he was just having fun, when Goku became UI he did fight seriously
Which is similar to when Vegeta launched his Final Radiance towards Perfect Cell, and did a lot of damage to him, but in the end he was just playing

I didn't say he wasn't suppressed, I'm just adding more wood to the fire

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

I didn't say he wasn't suppressed, I'm just adding more wood to the fire

I agree with that, what I don't agree with is giving a multiplier to the UI (I don't know if this has already been discussed)
I agree that UI > Broly ~ Gogeta SB