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DRAGON BALL SUPER MANGA SPEED UPGRADE :O (PART 2)

CryoTheMayo said:
Okay. I want you to explain your reasoning to me. Why can't we scale God Goku's speed value above a hypothetical SS3 Vegito? The only justification I can think of is that you think Vegito can't go Super Saiyan 3 when a pair of SS1 kids fusing can.
Click to expand...
Well, firstly it is only the anime and movie where Goku's statement is made concerning fusion, correct? So such reasoning doesn't really belong on the manga-exlusive profiles to begin with.

The closest thing would be Vegeta explaining to the others that nobody could beat Beerus because he's the strongest God in the entire Universe, but Potara fusion wasn't an option for them at that point.
 
Damage3245 said:
Well, firstly it is only the anime and movie where Goku's statement is made concerning fusion, correct? So such reasoning doesn't really belong on the manga-exlusive profiles to begin with.
Click to expand...
Nah. We already went over this. Vegito is 4-B. God Goku is 2-C. Therefore God > Fusion.

If you wanna argue Vegito is actually 2-C be my guest.
 
Damage3245 said:
Vegito has never canonically tried to go Super Saiyan 3 at this point in the story, so I don't believe that these reasons are good enough to conclusively say SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito.

I'd be fine with SSG Goku > SS Vegito though.
Click to expand...
so, this would also affect the Anime statement/SSJG Multiplier? or are you saying this specifically about the Manga continuity version of the statement?
 
StekFence said:
This is an assumption that has no basis. The only reason we never see vegito go higher then ssj until the black arc is because he never needed to. And by the black arc, ssj3 was obsolete. Goku is capable of going super saiyan 3, vegito has the same knowledge, and is far more capable. It thus seems more reasonable to assume Vegito could do it, rather than can’t.
Click to expand...
The assumption that he can do it because he has the knowledge is similarly baseless.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Bro wut
Click to expand...
We are assuming Vegito can go Super Saiyan 3 just because Goku has the knowledge of how to do it. Knowing how to do it doesn't mean you meet the qualifications to perform it though.

Should we make a key for a hypothetical UI or Ultra Ego Vegito too? If there's no evidence, I don't see why we should index it as so.
 
DivineAura44 said:
We are assuming Vegito can go Super Saiyan 3 just because Goku has the knowledge of how to do it. Knowing how to do it doesn't mean you meet the qualifications to perform it though.

Should we make a key for a hypothetical UI or Ultra Ego Vegito too? If there's no evidence, I don't see why we should index it as so.
Click to expand...
Your logic is goofy because a pair of children without Super Saiyan 3 can do it. Yet you're implying a fusion of adult men, one of which actually has the form, somehow would be unable to. Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct have more to using them, such as mental states. Vegeta could interfere with Ultra Instinct and Goku could interfere with Ultra Ego. Also, no one ever mentioned giving Vegito a key for Super Saiyan 3. We're discussing form multipliers. And the argument is that God would have a higher multiplier than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

If you can justify your logic by explaining that Super Saiyan 3 has some sort of known special condition that Vegeta would somehow interfere with then sure. Otherwise no. We have every reason to think he would be capable of using it.

EDIT: Checking OP it seems like they edited it to remove the entire SS3 Vegito and God Goku thing so I'm going to stop arguing about that.
 
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CryoTheMayo said:
Your logic is goofy because a pair of children without Super Saiyan 3 can do it. Yet you're implying a fusion of adult men, one of which actually has the form, somehow would be unable to. Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct have more to using them, such as mental states. Vegeta could interfere with Ultra Instinct and Goku could interfere with Ultra Ego. Also, no one ever mentioned giving Vegito a key for Super Saiyan 3. We're discussing form multipliers. And the argument is that God would have a higher multiplier than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

If you can justify your logic by explaining that Super Saiyan 3 has some sort of known special condition that Vegeta would somehow interfere with then sure. Otherwise no. We have every reason to think he would be capable of using it.

EDIT: Checking OP it seems like they edited it to remove the entire SS3 Vegito and God Goku thing so I'm going to stop arguing about that.
Click to expand...
You are completely ignoring the fact that once again, this application of transforming into a form that one of the characters doesn't have, has not been shown capable by Potara style fusion.
It's entirely not my burden to prove Vegito can't go SSJ3 due to some special unfulfilled qualifications. Because I'm not claiming there's no way, I'm taking the neutral stance. The simple fact is there's
1. A possibility. (Because Vegito hasn't done it before.)
2. Potential reasoning. (Because Vegeta lacks the capability of doing so.)

As long as these two exist, I find it very unreasonable to try to justify an 8x multiplier out of hypothetical forms.

Regardless, my stance seems to be heavily pushed back against so I agree we can cease discussion on the topic for this thread at the very least.
 
DivineAura44 said:
You are completely ignoring the fact that once again, this application of transforming into a form that one of the characters doesn't have, has not been shown capable by Potara style fusion.
It's entirely not my burden to prove Vegito can't go SSJ3 due to some special unfulfilled qualifications. Because I'm not claiming there's no way, I'm taking the neutral stance. The simple fact is there's
1. A possibility. (Because Vegito hasn't done it before.)
2. Potential reasoning. (Because Vegeta lacks the capability of doing so.)

As long as these two exist, I find it very unreasonable to try to justify an 8x multiplier out of hypothetical forms.

Regardless, my stance seems to be heavily pushed back against so I agree we can cease discussion on the topic for this thread at the very least.
Click to expand...
1. He didn't do it because his plan wasn't to defeat Buuhan but to free the others
2. Gotenks and Trunks only had SS1 and Gotenks had SS3. Why would Vegeta interfere in the outcome? (This was accepted here before, so I deleted that part of the thread.) :v
 
Tom4t0GG789 said:
In the Vegito's profile says he rivals Beerus. For the mention of Shin and the V-Jump

But the reason I disagree is because:

Toyotaro in the Comic-Con 2017 says that at the moment we don't know if this is true or not.

Also according Herms the Shin statement is about the Vegito's power and don't is 100% sure that is correct this mention
Click to expand...
Going by this answer:

T: As Kai'shin pointed out in the final chapter of the manga, Vegetto Blue may have exceeded Beerus's power. But at the moment it is not known whether this is true or not.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't this qualify for a Possibly rating scaling Vegito Blue to Beerus?
 
Tom4t0GG789 said:
He didn't do it because his plan wasn't to defeat Buuhan but to free the others
Click to expand...
1. I'm aware. I don't even see why this would require SSJ1 at all but it's besides the point. If he was trying to flex his power so that he Buu would be more inclined to absorb him, wouldn't he have went to his strongest form?
I'm just saying that the fact he didn't go into SSJ3 leaves the possibility of him not being able to on the table.
2. Goten and Trunks used the Metamoran Fusion Dance. By changing it to Potara, we now have no clue of if the fusion could support a form that not both users are capable of tapping into. You are virtually changing the constants of your experiment and expecting the same dependent.
 
DivineAura44 said:
1. I'm aware. I don't even see why this would require SSJ1 at all but it's besides the point. If he was trying to flex his power so that he Buu would be more inclined to absorb him, wouldn't he have went to his strongest form?
Click to expand...
He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?
DivineAura44 said:
I'm just saying that the fact he didn't go into SSJ3 leaves the possibility of him not being able to on the table.
Click to expand...
This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?
DivineAura44 said:
2. Goten and Trunks used the Metamoran Fusion Dance. By changing it to Potara, we now have no clue of if the fusion could support a form that not both users are capable of tapping into. You are virtually changing the constants of your experiment and expecting the same dependent.
Click to expand...
Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all
 
Jaakor48 said:
He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?
Click to expand...
wasn't Vegeta dead during the fusion? so wouldn't that be mitigated regardless?
Jaakor48 said:
This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?
Click to expand...
not that i agree with the other guy here but........wouldn't it be obvious that he would answer "no reason to assume he can go SSJ2 as well"? i just don't see how this is a good counter to the claim you are answering

Jaakor48 said:
Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all
Click to expand...
both had SSJ2, and Kefla went only SSJ2, she never went Berserk like Kale could
 
Jaakor48 said:
He was already destroying Buu as an ssj, why go ssj3? Especially with the drain It has on a living body?
Click to expand...
Wasn't he already stronger in Base too? I forget. But if the point is to scare Buu with power, SSJ3 would have been the next logical step. Also I don't think SSJ3 has drain on the dead.

Jaakor48 said:
This logic falls apart because he didn't go ssj2 either, can he not use that form too?
Click to expand...
Well yes, SSJ2 does fit the first qualification of possibility because he hasn't shown it.
The second isn't because there's no actual reason to believe he wouldn't have the form. Both Vegeta and Goku do.
It's not the same.

Jaakor48 said:
Kale and caulifa had different ssj forms, by your logic kefla should have not been able to go super Saiyan at all
Click to expand...
Kale went into the Super Saiyan form. Caulifla went into the Super Saiyan form.
Kefla goes into... the Super Saiyan form.
 
We already accept SSJ3 Vegito being a scaling point in the anime, so take that as you will, but this is no longer a relevant topic, so let's move on.

Personally every arguement I've seen for Vegito not being able to use SSJ3 in this thread has been silly and nonsensical, but atp we are just filling up the thread with tangents that could be solved elsewhere.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
We already accept SSJ3 Vegito being a scaling point in the anime, so take that as you will, but this is no longer a relevant topic, so let's move on.

Personally every arguement I've seen for Vegito not being able to use SSJ3 in this thread has been silly and nonsensical, but atp we are just filling up the thread with tangents that could be solved elsewhere.
Click to expand...
I really regret having put this topic, I had not found this information before making the thread. 🙏
 
Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?
 
Darkmon_cns said:
Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?
Click to expand...
I didn't find any way to put a multiplier to the UI other than that it is superior to Goku in SSB Kaioken
 
Darkmon_cns said:
Ok so question


If ultra instinct is scalled above gogeta blue, and base Gogeta is above the Blue forms at one time, dose that mean we'd apply another round of God multipliers and everything to speed?
Click to expand...
Z Goku = 1
Z Goku SS3 = 400
Z Vegito = 400
Z SS3 Vegito would = 160,000
God Goku = >160,000
SSB = 50 x God = >8,000,000

DBS Gogeta > Goku Blue = >8,000,000
Gogeta Blue = 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 or 64,000,000,000,000

Moro-73 is fast enough that he would be relative to fusions like Gogeta and is implied to be stronger than FPSS Broly was. UI Goku blitzes and stomps Moro-73.

Assuming UI Goku is relative to Blue fusion that equates to a 64 trillion times multiplier.
 
Damage3245 said:
The gap between Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct being that high seems inconsistent.

SSB Goku is able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is also able to fight on relative terms with Awakened Gas.

Ultra Instinct Goku is obviously faster and more powerful, but the gap shouldn't be as drastic as millions otherwise Gas would be being blitzed.
Click to expand...
That's because Ultra Instinct has no set multiplier, it's always stronger then SSBE but UI is a state of mind that varies in power depending on Goku's mindset and it also adapts to his opponents too

Also SSB Goku was fighting a holding back Gas
 
Spinoirr said:
That's because Ultra Instinct has no set multiplier, it's always stronger then SSBE but UI is a state of mind that varies in power depending on Goku's mindset and it also adapts to his opponents too

Also SSB Goku was fighting a holding back Gas
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting ultra instinct was actually weaker well fighting gas but at it's prime against moro?
 
Merus did state that the UI Goku would attain against moro a his current strengths would be far more stable than any other

43.jpg


So it could simply be a case of Moro arc UI and up having a much greater boost
 
Jaakor48 said:
Merus did state that the UI Goku would attain against moro a his current strengths would be far more stable than any other

43.jpg


So it could simply be a case of Moro arc UI and up having a much greater boost
Click to expand...
Unfortunately gas comes after moro so that dosen't help the present counterdiction, besides just holding back and playing with him
 
Darkmon_cns said:
Unfortunately gas comes after moro so that dosen't help the present counterdiction, besides just holding back and playing with him
Click to expand...
I mean, Goku fighting him in both SSB and UI means one of two things

1) SSB is relative to UI, which as we see with moro, it's nowhere near close
2) Gas was sandbagging

Gas holding back is the most reasonable assumption

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks
 
Jaakor48 said:
I mean, Goku fighting him in both SSB and UI means one of the things

1) SSB is relative to UI, which as we see with moro, it's nowhere near close
2) Gas was sandbagging

Gas holding back is the most reasonable assumption

Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks
Click to expand...
Well I think your right
 
Jaakor48 said:
Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks
Click to expand...
Moro getting his arm blown off there isn't Moro holding back; Goku used a charged up Kamehameha at point-blank range to deal an attack more powerful than what he normally dishes out.
 
Jaakor48 said:
Moro did something similar actually, he got his hand blown clean off by SSB Goku when he was toying with him iirc, ye against UIO Goku where he actually took him seriously, he ate all his attacks
Click to expand...
Charged attacks scale above physicals + Goku's aura in that instance was reminiscent to when he used stressed SSB against Jiren, which is in a similar function to Kaio-ken. Meaning Goku here was far stronger than he is in Blue regularly
7Gy2z1x.png
d1vPkyJ.png
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Charged attacks scale above physicals + Goku's aura in that instance was reminiscent to when he used stressed SSB against Jiren, which is in a similar function to Kaio-ken. Meaning Goku here was far stronger than he is in Blue regularly
7Gy2z1x.png
d1vPkyJ.png
Click to expand...
But even reading the chapter Moro wasn't fighting seriously, he was just having fun, when Goku became UI he did fight seriously
Which is similar to when Vegeta launched his Final Flash towards Perfect Cell, and did a lot of damage to him, but in the end he was just playing
 
Last edited:
Tom4t0GG789 said:
But even reading the chapter Moro wasn't fighting seriously, he was just having fun, when Goku became UI he did fight seriously
Which is similar to when Vegeta launched his Final Radiance towards Perfect Cell, and did a lot of damage to him, but in the end he was just playing
Click to expand...
I didn't say he wasn't suppressed, I'm just adding more wood to the fire
 
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