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KingPin0422

Derp Idol
Joke Battles
Retired
1,280
1,120

Introduction​

Right now, we currently rate Chou Goku as a Super Saiyan God at 3-B based on the following scan:

latest


Meanwhile, Jiren and everyone who scales to him (such as Ultra Instinct Goku) is rated at 3-A because he is stronger than Belmod, who scales to Beerus and Champa, who apparently would have destroyed Universe 7 in their fight, based on this scan:

https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1069/10006000/8.jpg

Now, what is wrong with these ratings? Well...

Problem #1: Lack of Context​

The scans we use to support the aforementioned ratings don't have a lot of context behind them. Everyone acknowledges that the first scan does not specify the timeframe over which Universe 7 would be destroyed by the fight between Goku and Beerus, but defaulting to a 3-B rating is not a good idea. What we actually see in the panels is the universe being shaken, not breaking down like it does in the anime, and even then, it's barely visible, so it logically could not have required more energy than what a 4-A character can put out.

You might object and say "Well, Elder Kai said that at the rate they were going, the universe would be destroyed, so it couldn't possibly be a long time," but the thing is, these characters are way, way beyond the speed of light, so it isn't much of a stretch to claim that they could destroy Universe 7 over a short period of time by attacking each other really fast. Arguably, even Super Perfect Cell could have done so with the power and speed he has.

The second scan is somehow even less clear. All that Champa says is that he doesn't care about what happens to the universe he and Beerus are fighting in while they prepare their attacks, which doesn't necessarily indicate that they were going to destroy it all at once. I just don't see how people can get 3-A based on such a vague statement.

Speaking of statements...


Problem #2: Contradictions​

Yeah, basically, the supposedly 3-B to 3-A stuff, if taken at face value, would contradict statements made much later on in the manga, which strongly imply that far stronger threats than the likes of Super Saiyan God Goku and even Beerus himself are only capable of busting single galaxies at most.

Exhibit A: Fused Zamasu​

Fused Zamasu, when backed into a corner by Goku and his completed Super Saiyan Blue form, who is stated to be an even match for him, charges up an attack that he claims will destroy the galaxy and kill Goku:

https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1069/10025000/21.jpg

On the very next page, when Trunks expresses concern over Zamasu's power, Vegeta informs him that Zamasu is low on stamina and that releasing an attack so powerful would carry drastic consequences, even if he is immortal:

https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1069/10025000/22.jpg

Basically, it's made clear by these two scans that Fused Zamasu, someone who is objectively leagues beyond the Goku that did the alleged feat, is only capable of blowing up one galaxy at best, as well as that Goku probably cannot survive such an attack.

Exhibit B: Moro​

We have confirmation from Whis that Moro, who at this point has copied Merus' strength and bound himself to the Earth, will eventually explode, releasing all of his energy and taking the entire galaxy out with him:

https://cdn.***************.com/file/AnimeRleases/DBS_65_045.jpg


Now, it should go without saying that Moro at this point is stronger than Beerus, due to having the power of a trainee angel and matching Ultra Instinct Goku, who previously contended with the likes of Jiren, who in turn is stated to be more powerful than a God of Destruction. This definitely puts him above Belmod, and should put him above the likes of Beerus as well, since he holds the same position. Yet, despite obviously being more powerful than someone who can apparently destroy an entire universe with ease, he doesn't seem to be capable of destroying more than one galaxy, either.

Other Stuff​

  1. Post-healing Goku Black should not scale to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Both Goku and Vegeta make it a point that neither of them can sustain the full power of Super Saiyan Blue for long, and this is even the entire point behind Vegeta later learning to conserve that power by mainly using Super Saiyan God, then quickly activating Super Saiyan Blue when he attacks.
  2. Completed Super Saiyan Blue should not be separated from regular Super Saiyan Blue for indexing purposes. It's explicitly a perfection of Super Saiyan Blue that enables the user to fight with its full power at all times. Nothing suggests that it's magically more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue altogether.

Conclusion​

  • Super Saiyan God Goku and anyone that scales to him should be downgraded from 3-B to 4-A.
  • Super Saiyan Blue Goku and anyone that scales to him should be downgraded from 3-B to 3-C. Also, Completed Super Saiyan Blue shouldn't be listed as higher.
  • Ultra Instinct Goku, the Gods of Destruction, and anyone that scales to them should be downgraded from 3-A to 3-C.
  • Post-healing Goku Black should be downgraded from 3-B to 4-B.
 
I agree that 3-A is an outlier in the manga. The repeated galaxy-level showings make it clear that it is way more consistent.
 
Also Neutral.

One thing I found interesting though in the OP is this
Meanwhile, Jiren and everyone who scales to him (such as Ultra Instinct Goku) is rated at 3-A because he is stronger than Belmod, who scales to Beerus and Champa, who apparently would have destroyed Universe 7 in their fight, based on this scan:
Yet Beerus whooped like 9 of them on his own. Idk how they scale
 
Honestly that's probably talking about one SDB, since it needs all seven and so if one is gone they can't use them, at least that's my take
 
You might object and say "Well, Elder Kai said that at the rate they were going, the universe would be destroyed, so it couldn't possibly be a long time," but the thing is, these characters are way, way beyond the speed of light, so it isn't much of a stretch to claim that they could destroy Universe 7 over a short period of time by attacking each other really fast. Arguably, even Super Perfect Cell could have done so with the power and speed he has.
Wat. . .

No. Just no.

Do you understand how huge the universe is? You would not be able to destroy the universe in a timely manner whatsoever if you're just 4-B (Or 4-A or 3-C for that matter).

There are like 2 trillion galaxies in the universe, with hundreds to thousands of solar systems in your average galaxy. Even traveling at MFTL+ speeds and constantly outputting your highest energy output without it ever waning, along with never sleeping or taking a break, it would still take like decades of doing nothing but destroying solar system after solar system to destroy the entire universe.

Elder Kai's statement clearly implies that the destruction of the universe (and this is all of Universe 7 btw, not just the physical universe) is imminent, and so you would need high 3-B to 3-A levels of power to do such a feat.

As for the "Galaxy statements", it is possible, and even likely, that by "galaxy", they are referring to the North Galaxy aka, the Northern Quadrant of the Universe, which is a consistent thing in the entirety of Dragon Ball (I don't have to mention the old "DB universe is only four galaxies wide" mentality, right? Because its the same logic). And so, would be a 3-B feat then, and would be consistent with other feats.



I think scaling the manga characters to "At least 3-B, possibly 3-A for XYZ reasons" (Or if you are a real big stickler for it being just galaxy level, "At least 3-C, likely 3-B, possibly 3-A for XYZ reasons") makes more sense, but whatever, I don't really care for the manga whatsoever to give this any more of my time - I just had a problem with that statement.
 
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Completely disagree with the OP & agree with Warren
Goku isnt immortal he is a mortal saiyan he cant do that for decades without resting No way
4-A is a massive downplay
Galaxy could mean North Galaxy Which is 1/4 th of the Universe
Also their is ki control
Semi Perfect Cell even stated he would destroy the earth but that doesnt mean he is only planet level
Also there are these things in Buu Saga AS well
So if someone is saying they would destroy the galaxy doesnt mean they are only galaxy lvl & Moro would likely accidently destroy the galaxy which is not a limit of a character to begin with
The Universe destruction feats are implied to be far more quicker & instant threats
They should more likely "At least 3-B , Possibly 3-A" Like Warren said
 
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but the thing is, these characters are way, way beyond the speed of light, so it isn't much of a stretch to claim that they could destroy Universe 7 over a short period of time by attacking each other really fast. Arguably, even Super Perfect Cell could have done so with the power and speed he has.
This makes no sense. You’re assuming that they’ll travel around the universe while destroying clusters of stars at a time. Not only is this [headcanon] but Goku can’t breathe in space, therefore cannot fly around the universe.
Elder Kai said that “at this rate” the universe would’ve been destroyed, and he said it after one shockwave. If one shockwave is enough to threaten the destruction of the entire universe, then it’s 3-B bare minimum.
 
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Wait, where was this agreed on?
Goku couldn't teleport to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber because it was in a different dimension during the Buu Saga, but he could teleport to the Otherworld during cell Saga.

Warren and Zamasu's points make the most sense
 
Vegeta informs him that Zamasu is low on stamina and that releasing an attack so powerful would carry drastic consequences, even if he is immortal:

is only capable of blowing up one galaxy at best

That's kinda contradictory. If Zamasu is low on stamina (which tends to mean he's low on ki and power in dbz standards) then why is him being able to bust a galaxy while weakened indicative of that being his best? It could just be that him busting a galaxy while dead ass tired to the point even his immortality is waning is his best, and his fresh self is way stronger like one would assume.

Other then that, I'm neutral and completely indifferent to how these changes play out, just thought this reasoning as a tad sus.
 
I think either they should be upgraded to "At least 3-B, Possibly or likely 3-A" (Which is more justified to do) Or we should close the Thread
 
Personally, as both a DB fan and someone who dislikes stupid levels of DB strength(reason why I dislike DBX and Heroes, personally)... Zamasu and Warren make fantastic counter arguments that feel correct. So I am siding with them.
 
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