Dragon Ball: Updates (Planet Vegeta Re-Calc, DBS Manga Downgrade)

[Damage3245]

Yes. Which means the idea of Blue weakening below 2-C is nonsensical. Because the multiplier of God should be far greater than 160,000x. If we were treating this logically then God would be accepted as a form that multiplies your power infinitely. So Super Saiyan Black inherently needs 2-C power to challenge Blue Vegeta.

So your argument is that even though Goku Black had multiple Zenkais before fighting Vegeta, none of them were multiplying his power level infinitely. But then when he fought Vegeta, his Zenkai multiplied his power infinitely? A bit inconsistent, no?

I think my explanation makes a lot more sense; his control over Goku's body harmonized enough to point where he cought fight with Super Saiyan God Goku's level of power. It'd explain why he goes straight from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rose without exhibiting the Super Saiyan God form.

The inherent problem with this logic is that Vegeta should be far stronger than Goku. On the basis that he trained an additional year that Goku didn't get. And it's clear his training wasn't as simple as figuring out God and Blue, he pretty clearly pushed his body to the breaking point in there. Hell, Vegeta should be stronger than Goku even before the HTC. Earlier in the saga we see FPSS2 Trunks matches SS3 Goku and yet it's stated SS2 Vegeta has the advantage over Black even with Trunks saying Black has grown even stronger since he last fought him. Trunks even says it's been a 'while' since Black last used it, meaning Black was kicking him around in base form for some time.

So the scaling chain from just from basic information stated or shown in the manga would be:

Post-HTC SS2 Vegeta > Pre-HTC SS2 Vegeta > Post-Prologue SS Black > Pre-Prologue SS Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

No matter what way we cut it here, Vegeta would be several times stronger than Goku in the Black Saga. And that's me ignoring things like the idea that Base Black was overpowering FPSS2 Trunks and that Black rarely uses Super Saiyan. If you use that to argue Base Black is akin to FPSS2 Trunks then that would mean Vegeta is several HUNDRED times stronger than Goku even before entering the HTC.

Essentially the scaling between Vegeta and Goku intrinsically doesn't make sense in the context of who has put the more effort or time in. Vegeta at the very start of the saga should already be several times stronger than Goku then trained an entire year in the HTC. Yet Goku is still explicitly superior by the end of the Black Saga.

Actually this part is accounted for by the fact that Vegeta did Gravity Room Training with Trunks after Goku's sparring session with Trunks. Vegeta being depicted stronger than SSJ3 Goku here wouldn't be so much of an issue.

This isn't stated anywhere in any of the pages you posted. Or anywhere else that I can see.

Why else would Goku provide this explanation? "You can't fight in it for long", he says - which applies to Vegeta's earlier fights.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So your argument is that even though Goku Black had multiple Zenkais before fighting Vegeta, none of them were multiplying his power level infinitely. But then when he fought Vegeta, his Zenkai multiplied his power infinitely? A bit inconsistent, no?

It really doesn't matter if it's 'inconsistent'. What matters is what happens in the story as justified by several different characters. I'm not going to ignore Trunks, Shin and Black all citing Zenkai boosts for Black's power increases because he had smaller increases against Trunks in the past. Black isn't growing stronger as he fights, he grows stronger when he is healed by Zamasu. Because he is zenkai boosting.

I think my explanation makes a lot more sense; his control over Goku's body harmonized enough to point where he cought fight with Super Saiyan God Goku's level of power. It'd explain why he goes straight from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rose without exhibiting the Super Saiyan God form.

Pardon? Super Saiyan God Goku's power? Are you claiming Black was using Beyond God with Super Saiyan? Which should make Super Saiyan Blue, or Rose? How does this make sense? Are you conflating the manga continuity with the events of the anime or movie? If so go reread the 4th chapter. Goku never uses Super Saiyan against Beerus. Only God.

So there is no precedent for Beyond God using normal Super Saiyan in the manga. Only Beyond God using SSGSS.

Actually this part is accounted for by the fact that Vegeta did Gravity Room Training with Trunks after Goku's sparring session with Trunks. Vegeta being depicted stronger than SSJ3 Goku here wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Oh so Vegeta's power increased several times if not hundreds of times in what? A few hours at most? But the idea of him making a giant leap in a year of intense training in the HTC is hard to believe when the HTC is as intense if not more intense than the gravity chamber? Keep in mind none of the characters point out that Vegeta made such a large leap in power. Yet the leap is very clearly there. So if we factor that in there's precedent for Vegeta making a massive leap from training in the HTC and none of the characters commenting on it.

And that still doesn't address the idea that Goku is explicitly stronger than Vegeta at the end of the Black Saga. Despite never doing any form of training besides learning the Mafuba. Are we suggesting Goku grew several times to several hundred times stronger by just fighting? In that case the 'inconsistency' of Goku surpassing Post-HTC Vegeta and Post-Zenkai Black resolves itself. He just grew stronger by fighting.

In short, Goku still makes a big leap out of nowhere to surpass Vegeta. And Vegeta makes giant leaps in power by training multiple times in the saga. First the gravity chamber (several times to several hundred times in just a few hours) to making a giant leap in power training an entire year in the HTC to match SSGSS Black after SS Black matched SSGSS Vegeta previously.

Why else would Goku provide this explanation? "You can't fight in it for long", he says - which applies to Vegeta's earlier fights.

Vegeta is fighting an SSGSS user and winning because he is using the form more effectively. Goku is explaining to Trunks why God Vegeta has the edge over SSGSS Black.

 

[Damage3245]

It really doesn't matter if it's 'inconsistent'. What matters is what happens in the story as justified by several different characters. I'm not going to ignore Trunks, Shin and Black all citing Zenkai boosts for Black's power increases because he had smaller increases against Trunks in the past. Black isn't growing stronger as he fights, he grows stronger when he is healed by Zamasu. Because he is zenkai boosting.

I didn't say he wasn't Zenkai boosting; but that isn't all that he's doing as we even see in his own words. Same reason why he initially couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan to begin with.

Pardon? Super Saiyan God Goku's power? Are you claiming Black was using Beyond God with Super Saiyan? Which should make Super Saiyan Blue, or Rose? How does this make sense? Are you conflating the manga continuity with the events of the anime or movie? If so go reread the 4th chapter. Goku never uses Super Saiyan against Beerus. Only God.

So there is no precedent for Beyond God using normal Super Saiyan in the manga. Only Beyond God using SSGSS.

I didn't say it made perfect sense but it accounts for the drastic power difference.

Oh so Vegeta's power increased several times if not hundreds of times in what? A few hours at most? But the idea of him making a giant leap in a year of intense training in the HTC is hard to believe when the HTC is as intense if not more intense than the gravity chamber? Keep in mind none of the characters point out that Vegeta made such a large leap in power. Yet the leap is very clearly there. So if we factor that in there's precedent for Vegeta making a massive leap from training in the HTC and none of the characters commenting on it.

And that still doesn't address the idea that Goku is explicitly stronger than Vegeta at the end of the Black Saga. Despite never doing any form of training besides learning the Mafuba. Are we suggesting Goku grew several times to several hundred times stronger by just fighting? In that case the 'inconsistency' of Goku surpassing Post-HTC Vegeta and Post-Zenkai Black resolves itself. He just grew stronger by fighting.

In short, Goku still makes a big leap out of nowhere to surpass Vegeta. And Vegeta makes giant leaps in power by training multiple times in the saga. First the gravity chamber (several times to several hundred times in just a few hours) to making a giant leap in power training an entire year in the HTC to match SSGSS Black after SS Black matched SSGSS Vegeta previously.

Making an infinite-sized leap? Yeah, a bit more difficult to buy especially seeing as Goku didn't go through that training too yet his Super Saiyan Blue has power just as great as Vegetas.

Also, I don't believe Goku is several times stronger than Vegeta at the end of the Goku Black arc. The only reason why he's able to fight against Fused Zamasu is that he completed Super Saiyan Blue. There's no reason to think Vegeta wouldn't be at this level either if he had completed Super Saiyan Blue too.

Vegeta is fighting an SSGSS user and winning because he is using the form more effectively. Goku is explaining to Trunks why God Vegeta has the edge over SSGSS Black.

Yeah, and I believe this also serves as an explanation as to why he wasn't winning beforehand. It makes more sense to me than Vegeta getting infinitely stronger which Goku Black never comments on.


Also, the idea of making the characters be 2-C in their base forms in the Universe 6 tournament arc doesn't get of the scaling issues either since Hit fought Goku in his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God forms. There's still be an infinite gap issue either way.


I've already accepted with some resignation that we'll never find a perfect solution to the scaling or a solution that will please everyone because the manga itself is not perfectly consistent; but I'm fine with my sandbox at least and if anyone else wants they can create their own sandbox with scans & references to compare.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I didn't say he wasn't Zenkai boosting; but that isn't all that he's doing as we even see in his own words. Same reason why he initially couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan to begin with.


I didn't say it made perfect sense but it accounts for the drastic power difference.

I'm sorry but at this point you are extrapolating information with zero justification for it. You are arguing that Black magically absorbed the power of God into base form and could use his normal Super Saiyan form with God power to make it 2-C. There was a basis for this being possible via Goku doing it but last I checked a CRT debunked and removed that from him. As such there is no precedent for this being possible in the story. If such a shocking and unusual thing were to take place I feel like Goku and Vegeta, the two Saiyan Gods, would have brought it up. Instead it's repeatedly stated to be Black zenkai boosting.

So from what I can tell this is essentially just a fan theory. One with no evidence to really substantiate it.

Making an infinite-sized leap? Yeah, a bit more difficult to buy especially seeing as Goku didn't go through that training too yet his Super Saiyan Blue has power just as great as Vegetas.

This is Dragon Ball Super. Virtually every notable character has leaped from 4-B to 2-C within a year or two of Goku becoming a God. So arguing it's unrealistic as an 'infinite-sized leap' is simply pointless.

We've got 2-C Krillin. We've got 2-C Goten and Trunks. We've got 2-C Android 17. We've got 2-C Android 18. We've got 2-C Piccolo. We've got 2-C Gohan. And none of these characters have hard justification for it in-universe. They just made the leap. As evident by the fights they have been in.

Yeah, and I believe this also serves as an explanation as to why he wasn't winning beforehand. It makes more sense to me than Vegeta getting infinitely stronger which Goku Black never comments on.

Again, this saga already has a precedent for characters making large leaps in power without other characters commenting on it. Hell, with my previous statement the entirety of Super has a precedent for this happening.

Also, the idea of making the characters be 2-C in their base forms in the Universe 6 tournament arc doesn't get of the scaling issues either since Hit fought Goku in his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God forms. There's still be an infinite gap issue either way.

The idea that we're still on this is bizarre to me. Hit was stated and shown to be holding back for most of the fight. When he went full power he was strong enough to take attacks from a full power Blue Goku and dodge his Super Kamehameha. Goku even states Hit is much stronger than he was able to show in the tournament.

Hit having fun with the fight and holding back to Goku's level is in-character and supported by how the fight naturally progresses.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Damage, you realize that according to the thread you made, that when someone in Saiyan Beyond God goes SSJ they go Blue. So this theory that you’re coming up with simply does not work. You’re making up unreasonable claims because you think a character getting a tier boost after a zenkai is inconsistent. The fact that it may “seem weird” that a zenkai made him that much stronger isn’t a valid argument. That’s just an argument from incredibility.

 

[Damage3245]

It's not just an argument from incredulity. It's based on Goku Black's own words.

The idea that we're still on this is bizarre to me. Hit was stated and shown to be holding back for most of the fight. When he went full power he was strong enough to take attacks from a full power Blue Goku and dodge his Super Kamehameha. Goku even states Hit is much stronger than he was able to show in the tournament.

Hit having fun with the fight and holding back to Goku's level is in-character and supported by how the fight naturally progresses.

This isn't the part that's in dispute; remember I proposed that we rate Hit differently based on him holding back.

I don't want to go round in circles on this; if anyone else creates a sandbox for a different proposal let me know. I'm fine with my own for now until I see something better.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This isn't the part that's in dispute; remember I proposed that we rate Hit differently based on him holding back.

I'm not so sure what relevance that had with my post then.

I don't want to go round in circles on this; if anyone else creates a sandbox for a different proposal let me know. I'm fine with my own for now until I see something better.

I'm fairly certain that the point of Goku and Vegeta scaling to Goku Black hasn't been decided via vote yet so I see no reason why I or anyone else would make a sandbox until we actually know how the VSBW is treating this.

From everything I've seen, argued and provided evidence for? Post-Zenkai Black is 2-C in all forms. Post-HTC Vegeta is 2-C in all forms. Goku should also be 2-C in all forms by the end of the Black Saga but if it's so hard to believe we can make him 2-C in all forms starting with the USS and just say CSSB Goku is arbitrarily stronger than Post-HTC Blue Vegeta or Post-Zenkai Rose Black.

In other words, I think what was proposed in the OP is perfectly fine with all the arguments provided so far in this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, you don't have to make a sandbox yet of course. I just think they're useful for being as clear as possible on the proposals.

 

[TiltedFN]

Cryo makes the most sense here, and quite frankly, leaping infinitely down to 4-B based on single punches are a couple meters in movement is really nonsensical. Cryo's scaling makes much more sense and imo is the best way to go about it. Which naturally means, yes goku and vegeta's base would be 2-C by this point.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It's not just an argument from incredulity. It's based on Goku Black's own words.


This isn't the part that's in dispute; remember I proposed that we rate Hit differently based on him holding back.

I don't want to go round in circles on this; if anyone else creates a sandbox for a different proposal let me know. I'm fine with my own for now until I see something better.

When does Goku Black talk about using Saiyan Beyond God in his SS form? I’ve not seen you send a single scan to back this up, also the manga disagrees with you. It states that SSJR is just the divine version of SSGSS.

Also, are you gonna address the fact that if he was using Saiyan beyond God, according to your thread that you got accepted he would turn SSJR automatically? The fact that he goes SSJ and then SSJR later, shuts down that very argument.

 

[Damage3245]

When does Goku Black talk about using Saiyan Beyond God in his SS form? I’ve not seen you send a single scan to back this up, also the manga disagrees with you. It states that SSJR is just the divine version of SSGSS.

Also, are you gonna address the fact that if he was using Saiyan beyond God, according to your thread that you got accepted he would turn SSJR automatically? The fact that he goes SSJ and then SSJR later, shuts down that very argument.

I'm referring to these pages;

Where Goku Black says he thought he'd acquire all of Son Goku's own power immediately after taking his body, but he didn't.

In order to get the full potential out of Goku's body, he underwent multiple Zenkai.

As his cells regenerate from the damage he's taken, Goku's body becomes his own to control more and more.

After unlocking Super Saiyan Rose, Goku Black claims he's mastered Goku's power at long last.

If you have a different interpretation, that's fair enough but from what we know Goku Black underwent multiple Zenkai, and not all of these were infinitely-sized boosts in power; instead while he did get more powerful what also happened was that he gained more and more control of Goku's body, such as unlocking the ablity to turn Super Saiyan, and eventually unlocking the ability to turn Super Saiyan Blue (or in his case, Super Saiyan Rose).

Instead of him getting two infinite-sized jumps in power for some unexplained reason, it makes more sense to me that he just got one.

The other scaling also requires Goku and Vegeta to go through two or three infinite-sized jumps in power and is just shrugging off the need for any kind of explanation as "It's just Dragon Ball Super". It feels like lazy powerscaling to me.

And to be clear; I'm not arguing that Goku Black was definitely using Saiyan beyond God because he hadn't fully mastered Goku's power yet; instead he just got close. Close enough to be able to contend with an imperfect Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta - but still weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's full power as shown by their rematch.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I'm referring to these pages;

Where Goku Black says he thought he'd acquire all of Son Goku's own power immediately after taking his body, but he didn't.

In order to get the full potential out of Goku's body, he underwent multiple Zenkai.

As his cells regenerate from the damage he's taken, Goku's body becomes his own to control more and more.

After unlocking Super Saiyan Rose, Goku Black claims he's mastered Goku's power at long last.

If you have a different interpretation, that's fair enough but from what we know Goku Black underwent multiple Zenkai, and not all of these were infinitely-sized boosts in power; instead while he did get more powerful what also happened was that he gained more and more control of Goku's body, such as unlocking the ablity to turn Super Saiyan, and eventually unlocking the ability to turn Super Saiyan Blue (or in his case, Super Saiyan Rose).

Instead of him getting two infinite-sized jumps in power for some unexplained reason, it makes more sense to me that he just got one.

The other scaling also requires Goku and Vegeta to go through two or three infinite-sized jumps in power and is just shrugging off the need for any kind of explanation as "It's just Dragon Ball Super". It feels like lazy powerscaling to me.

And to be clear; I'm not arguing that Goku Black was definitely using Saiyan beyond God because he hadn't fully mastered Goku's power yet; instead he just got close. Close enough to be able to contend with an imperfect Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta - but still weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's full power as shown by their rematch.

Those scans are fine for showing how Black was getting stronger, and using zenkais. Black claims he mastered Goku’s power when he gets SSGSS just like Goku did. I don’t see how you’re getting Saiyan Beyond God from this.

The thing is this isn’t even an interpretation issue, your logic isn’t even logically viable. Saiyan Beyond God when you turn SSJ would turn you into SSGSS. It doesn’t work when you’re already in SSJ then Goku Black turns SSGSS, so that just hurts that argument more.

It’s explained in-series that he got stronger from getting healed and then he performs a 2-C feat, you shouldn’t try to gatekeep a blatant feat because you think an infinite boost is weird.

Well, that’s what the manga and material show us. Your argument is literally making up a random theory that contradicts how Saiyan Beyond God would even work.

So are you arguing he was close to Saiyan Beyond God or not using Saiyan Beyond God? Also, we know why he beat SSJB Vegeta and then lost to him. Vegeta trained in the hyperbolic time chamber and got stronger. Either way, Saiyan Beyond God isn’t viable here at all. It logically makes 0 sense. We should just focus on what the material shows us and the blatant 2-C scaling.

 

[Quantu]

The series doesn't treat the gap as infinite btw. By our standard yes, but not in Dragon Ball. So using that as an argument is iffy.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, we know why he beat SSJB Vegeta and then lost to him. Vegeta trained in the hyperbolic time chamber and got stronger.

That's what I disagree with. Vegeta getting infinitely stronger with that training and that being the reason for how he's able to contend with Goku Black. Nothing narratively supports that:

1) Vegeta squares off against Goku Black and Goku Black confirms that Vegeta doesn't appear different since their previous battle. He wonders if Vegeta may have new transformation that will make a difference.

2) Vegeta uses Super Saiyan God against Goku Black (and using his trick of instantly switching to Super Saiyan Blue), he overwhelms him. He wonders what Vegeta has done (the answer is Vegeta's instant-switching technique).

3) Trunks wonders how Vegeta isn't getting pushed back by Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rose form, Goku explains it for us the audience, "SSB brings out enormous power, but you can't fight in that form or long. However, the God form is well-balanced by comparison. It doesn't consume much energy either. He's not always keeping the God form up. In the very instant he throws an attack, Vegeta switches to Super Saiyan Blue. He's storing the pwoer of Super Saiyan Blue until the right time and lets it explode when he needs it. Furthermore, his power isn't decreasing. That just shows you how hard he's trained."

That training session in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber you mentioned? It was for this reason; to let him unleash the full power of Super Saiyan Blue just when he needs it, allowing him to fight without the stamina issue he was suffering from earlier. It's spelled out to the audience explicitly.

Nowhere is it said or implied that Vegeta just boosted his power level by an infinite amount, and that Goku somehow did the same without any training too.

Let me ask you; is there anything actually proving that Goku Black gained an infinite-sized power-up when he turned into Super Saiyan Rose? Because here is him fighting Vegeta before and after his transformation... and I don't see an infinite-sized power gap here. He's stronger, yes, but not to that extent.

The series doesn't treat the gap as infinite btw. By our standard yes, but not in Dragon Ball. So using that as an argument is iffy.

Yeah. It's a bit of an issue. Some people are saying that the gap is infinite because that's how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is, others are saying it's 160,000x.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

There is no issue. The 160,000x figure is an extreme lowball figure that was accepted in a CRT. How strong SSG's multiplier would actually be is pretty irrelevant.

If you think characters making infinite leaps is hard to believe then what am I meant to think about Gohan leaping from 4-B to 2-C power in a year of offscreen training? Or Piccolo making a High 4-C to 2-C leap in a similar timeframe via basic scaling? Android 17 just beats up poachers and he went from High 4-C to 2-C casually.

If other characters can leap from Tier 4 to Tier 2 by just training offscreen for a year then I don't see why I should pretend Vegeta training intensely a year in the HTC wouldn't enable him to make an SSG-level leap.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't deny that insane powerscaling in the series happens from time to time where some characters can get huge, unexplained upgrades but I don't think that can be used to excuse every single issue.

I think the series already provides a reason for us for why Vegeta's performance in his rematch is better than his previous fight, and this explanation doesn't result in Goku going though a drastic unexplained power leap even if you can excuse Vegeta's leap with training.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't deny that insane powerscaling in the series happens from time to time where some characters can get huge, unexplained upgrades but I don't think that can be used to excuse every single issue.

"Huge, unexplained upgrades"
The only character here that you can argue has this in the Black Saga is Goku. And as we already outlined earlier Goku has a stupid leap in power regardless of the Black scaling. And no saying the Black scaling would mean a bigger leap doesn't challenge that point even remotely.

Factually speaking Vegeta and Black have explanations for them making their power leaps. And Goku scales to them anyways.

I think the series already provides a reason for us for why Vegeta's performance in his rematch is better than his previous fight, and this explanation doesn't result in Goku going though a drastic unexplained power leap even if you can excuse Vegeta's leap with training.

Yeah, it's the power leap. Not a made up a theory that Black was using Super Saiyan with Beyond God without going SSGSS via some mystical means never mentioned anywhere by the characters or games or author or anywhere.

And since Black explicitly was Blue-level with just Super Saiyan then stacked Rose you're effectively arguing that Vegeta breached an 'infinite gap' by just having better stamina. Which is an even more outrageous claim than simply "Vegeta grew way stronger after training for a year and used the form better".

Oh and let's not forget. Goku was beating Merged Zamasu in their 1v1 fight. Merged Zamasu. The Potara fusion of Black and Zamasu. Saying Merged Zamasu would only be as strong as FP Rose Black would be hilariously disingenuous and is merely the most absurd lowball imaginable. So even if we ignore the Black scaling you still end up with Goku overwhelming a fusion of an SSGSS character.

Now different continuities and all but what multiplier have we been given in the Super anime? Oh right. Sum of the parts multiplied by dozens of times. So at a baseline Merged Zamasu would be dozens of times stronger than Rose Black. What about other multipliers? Well we have statements of 'A x B' but that gives people aneurysms. We also have incredible leaps like Base Gogeta scaling above Blue Goku in the Broly movie. Which is canon to the manga.

No matter what way we interpret the scaling of the Black Saga, Goku's power leap is still absurd, still outrageous and is still a canonical thing. The story does not function without Goku making an absurd power leap. So pretending that contradicts or damages SS Black's scaling or Vegeta's power leap is just blatantly incorrect.

 

[Damage3245]

The only character here that you can argue has this in the Black Saga is Goku. And as we already outlined earlier Goku has a stupid leap in power regardless of the Black scaling. And no saying the Black scaling would mean a bigger leap doesn't challenge that point even remotely.

Oh and let's not forget. Goku was beating Merged Zamasu in their 1v1 fight. Merged Zamasu. The Potara fusion of Black and Zamasu. Saying Merged Zamasu would only be as strong as FP Rose Black would be hilariously disingenuous and is merely the most absurd lowball imaginable. So even if we ignore the Black scaling you still end up with Goku overwhelming a fusion of an SSGSS character.

This is not a stupid unexplained leap of power on Goku's part though; it's explained to us by Vegeta that Goku has developed a way of being able to fight with 100% of Blue's power. Therefore what we can take away from this is that Goku wasn't using his full power earlier in the fight.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is not a stupid unexplained leap of power on Goku's part though; it's explained to us by Vegeta that Goku has developed a way of being able to fight with 100% of Blue's power. Therefore what we can take away from this is that Goku wasn't using his full power earlier in the fight.

SS3 Goku = FPSS2 Trunks
SS Black > FPSS2 Trunks (Hell BASE Black > FPSS2 Trunks potentially)
SS2 Vegeta > SS Black
SS Black zenkai boosts several times
SS Black > FP SSB Vegeta
Black then goes Rose
Vegeta trains an entire year in the HTC growing even stronger
SSG-SSB Vegeta >> SSR Black
SSR Black then fuses with Zamasu to become at least dozens of times stronger
CSSB Goku (Which is just Goku at 100% Power) >/= Merged Zamasu

It's even stated by Goku that Vegeta's power wasn't dropping 'at all' when fighting Black. So are we now arguing that Vegeta was fighting Black with like 1% of his power and somehow stomping him? Of course not. Vegeta himself says that only Goku can beat Zamasu.

So your logic is essentially:

100% Goku > Merged Zamasu > (Dozens of times) > Post-HTC 100% Vegeta > Post-Zenkai Black > Pre-HTC 100% Vegeta > Pre-Zenkai Black > Trunks = Goku​

Either there was an unexplained massive power leap or Goku was always that strong. If it's the latter then there's no longer a contradiction in SS Black's scaling because Goku has a reason for scaling above Black and Vegeta, he was simply holding back. And if it's the former then we have the same scenario as before, Goku has to make unexplained leaps in power for the story to function so using him to debate the Black and Vegeta scaling is nonsensical.

 

[Damage3245]

It's even stated by Goku that Vegeta's power wasn't dropping 'at all' when fighting Black. So are we now arguing that Vegeta was fighting Black with like 1% of his power and somehow stomping him? Of course not. Vegeta himself says that only Goku can beat Zamasu.

That's because Vegeta can't do the Complete form of Super Saiyan Blue; he can only do his trick of switching forms quickly which wouldn't work now if Fused Zamasu was much faster.

And while Fused Zamasu is obviously more powerful than just SSR Goku Black, I don't think there's any solid confirmation that he's dozens of times more powerful.

I'd say it's more like:

100% Blue Goku & Vegeta = Fused Zamasu > Post-Zenkai Black > Incomplete Blue Vegeta > Pre-Zenkai Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's because Vegeta can't do the Complete form of Super Saiyan Blue; he can only do his trick of switching forms quickly which wouldn't work now if Fused Zamasu was much faster.

And while Fused Zamasu is obviously more powerful than just SSR Goku Black, I don't think there's any solid confirmation that he's dozens of times more powerful.

Vados states it's (A + B) x 10s
Numerous statements that it's A x B
Base Gogeta > SSB Goku
Base Gotenks > SS Goten/Trunks

In order for your argument for Vegeta not using Complete Blue to function you would need to admit that Merged Zamasu is far stronger than him. In which case the problem still stands.

CSSB Goku = FP SSB Vegeta = Merged Zamasu >> Post-HTC Vegeta >> Pre-HTC FP Vegeta >> Post-Zenkai Black >> Pre-HTC Vegeta

So Blue Vegeta after eating his senzu bean would have one shot SS Black. Effortlessly.

And let's not forget:

SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku
or
SS2 Vegeta > SS Black >> Base Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

So Vegeta was anywhere from over 4x to over 400x stronger than Goku at the start of the saga. Which makes it even more ridiculous that he didn't one shot Black after eating the senzu bean.

100% Blue Goku & Vegeta = Fused Zamasu > Post-Zenkai Black > Incomplete Blue Vegeta > Pre-Zenkai Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

So your argument is that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as Merged Zamasu from the very beginning of the arc. In which case either of them could have one shot Black at virtually any moment with zero difficulty whatsoever. One senzu. One punch.

 

[Sparkive]

So your argument is that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as Merged Zamasu from the very beginning of the arc. In which case either of them could have one shot Black at virtually any moment with zero difficulty whatsoever. One senzu. One punch.

To be fair... Wasn't that Toriyama's plan from the start? Wasn't the inclusion of Vegito a recommendation from Toyotaro or something?

 

[Sus]

cryo makes the most sense here

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To be fair... Wasn't that Toriyama's plan from the start? Wasn't the inclusion of Vegito a recommendation from Toyotaro or something?

1) I have never heard of that before so please cite it.

2) That doesn't mean Goku and Vegeta weren't written to be stronger by the end of the saga.

 

[Damage3245]

SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku
or
SS2 Vegeta > SS Black >> Base Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

So Vegeta was anywhere from over 4x to over 400x stronger than Goku at the start of the saga. Which makes it even more ridiculous that he didn't one shot Black after eating the senzu bean.

No, as I explained earlier that SS2 Vegeta vs Goku Black fight took place after Trunks' sparring with Goku, where both Trunks and Vegeta did gravity room training before their trip to the future.

So Blue Vegeta after eating his senzu bean would have one shot SS Black. Effortlessly.

Which makes it even more ridiculous that he didn't one shot Black after eating the senzu bean.

There is all kinds of ridiculousness if we get into the realm of "Why didn't thsi character one-shot another" like why didn't Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black one-shot Trunks during their two separate fights.

So your argument is that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as Merged Zamasu from the very beginning of the arc. In which case either of them could have one shot Black at virtually any moment with zero difficulty whatsoever. One senzu. One punch.

As I went over, the incomplete Super Saiyan Blue form didn't allow them to exert their full strength in a proper fight otherwise Goku wouldn't need to develop the "Complete Super Saiyan Blue" form and Vegeta wouldn't need his trick of only using Super Saiyan Blue for a split-second at a time.

 

[TiltedFN]

This is not a stupid unexplained leap of power on Goku's part though; it's explained to us by Vegeta that Goku has developed a way of being able to fight with 100% of Blue's power. Therefore what we can take away from this is that Goku wasn't using his full power earlier in the fight.

Goku found a way to fight with 100 percent of blue ALL THE TIME. Since we know using blue for long periods of time, and using the form multiple times even in a single day can drain it. So goku found a way to use the form more efficiently to fight at or near full power. So REGARDLESS you have full power ssb goku AND vegeta scaling to ssr goku black at the absolute lowball, or just far above them when fighting at full power. So FP Goku and Vegeta>=Merged zamasu>SSR goku black>ssj goku black>Pre training FP ssb vegeta>2-C. So you end up with base goku and vegeta being 2-C either way.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, as I explained earlier that SS2 Vegeta vs Goku Black fight took place after Trunks' sparring with Goku, where both Trunks and Vegeta did gravity room training before their trip to the future.

Okay so Vegeta grew several times to several hundred times stronger after training a few hours and scales way past Goku. Same problem exists.

There is all kinds of ridiculousness if we get into the realm of "Why didn't thsi character one-shot another" like why didn't Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black one-shot Trunks during their two separate fights.

Because Goku Black was torturing Trunks from a mixture of his sadism and god complex. He spent a year just stalking and torturing Trunks on a daily basis between committing genocide. Anyone who has read this story can deduce that.

As I went over, the incomplete Super Saiyan Blue form didn't allow them to exert their full strength in a proper fight otherwise Goku wouldn't need to develop the "Complete Super Saiyan Blue" form and Vegeta wouldn't need his trick of only using Super Saiyan Blue for a split-second at a time.

Vegeta is at least 4x stronger than Goku and ate a senzu bean. Meaning he was at full stamina, i.e full power when he resumed his fight with SS Black. And he was actively trying to kill Black.

Listens to Goku telling him to just kill Black immediately
Actively trying to kill Black
Declaring he will kill Black

By that stage of the fight, when Vegeta ate that senzu and went in at full power. He was out for blood.

Along with that I just noticed this statement here: ""Excellent. Vegeta, your level is quite suitable for increasing my strength!" So Black's Zenkais increasing in power is justified in-universe by Black fighting a far more powerful opponent than usual. Which addresses your earlier arguments that Black did not much such a huge leap against Trunks.

 

[Damage3245]

@CryoTheMayo You've got some good points; I still don't think some of the earlier proposals in the thread are correct but I'll ammend my sandbox with a compromise taking into account what you've said.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@CryoTheMayo You've got some good points; I still don't think some of the earlier proposals in the thread are correct but I'll ammend my sandbox with a compromise taking into account what you've said.

Alright, thank you.

 

[Sparkive]

1) I have never heard of that before so please cite it.

Translations | "Dragon Ball Super" Manga Vol. 4 Tori-Toyo Free Talk Vol. 2

English translation of the interview with Akira Toriyama and Toyotaro from Shueisha's fourth volume of 'Dragon Ball Super' manga in Japan

www.kanzenshuu.com

 

[Killerdrone123]

Snip

Snip

What are your thoughts on the manga scaling since the discussion has been done already

 

[Damage3245]

Alright, thank you.

I've ammended my sandbox.

In this version, Goku and Vegeta have a Post-Training key where they'll be 2-C in base after their separate training sessions prior to their return to the future for a rematch with Goku Black.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Translations | "Dragon Ball Super" Manga Vol. 4 Tori-Toyo Free Talk Vol. 2

English translation of the interview with Akira Toriyama and Toyotaro from Shueisha's fourth volume of 'Dragon Ball Super' manga in Japan

www.kanzenshuu.com

Interesting. Regardless that was merely a draft and the actual story is completely different.

I've ammended my sandbox.

In this version, Goku and Vegeta have a Post-Training key where they'll be 2-C in base after their separate training sessions prior to their return to the future for a rematch with Goku Black.

Looks fine to me. It's in line with the OP, which is that they are both 2-C in all forms in the latter half of the Black Saga.

 

[Omegas03]

needs to adress "Goku > Gotenks and Gohan" scaling already by the Beginning of BoG.

 

[Sus]

needs to adress "Goku > Gotenks and Gohan" scaling already by the Beginning of BoG.

i agree with this
goku and vegeta obviously were treated as the strongest

 

[Damage3245]

I can't find anything in the manga directly supporting that; the only exception being when Vegeta gets his "My Bulma!!!" rage boost and has a better performance against Beerus than the others, but this is situational.

 

[Omegas03]

I'll go ahead and copy paste what I said before

If the BoG manga storyline is the same as the anime, narratively, SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta SHOULD scale above SSJ3 Gotenks and PU Gohan already by the beginning of the series.

This is by the fact that Goku and Vegeta were considered 1 and 2, Vegeta gave more fight to Beerus than Gohan/Gotenks AAAAAND Vegeta was also scared shitless when he heard Goku lost to Beerus before the ritual. This couldn't be the case if Gohan and Gotenks were still ultimate trump cards/~100x stronger than Goku

BoG narratively is the same anime and manga, no reason to believe Goku and Vegeta arent top 1 and top 2

(I may do some research for stuff in the BoG manga to prove my point as the anime seemingly can't)

 

[Damage3245]

You're probably right for the anime but this isn't the thread for that. In the manga Vegeta doesn't learn that Beerus beat Goku.

 

[Omegas03]

Just took a re-look to BoG's manga again.

There's no direct statement about the duo being the strongest or Vegeta ******** his pants over Goku losing to Beerus beforehand but at least Goku kinda gave more of a fight to Beerus than Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks (which isn't much really xd), (Enraged) Vegeta also doing much more than anyone else aaand the fact Goku was the one used for the ritual.

(Goten also implied Goku was the strongest at the very beginning, but its not much of a explicit statement).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I've ammended my sandbox.

In this version, Goku and Vegeta have a Post-Training key where they'll be 2-C in base after their separate training sessions prior to their return to the future for a rematch with Goku Black.

I think this is reasonable