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Dragon Ball Super Manga Downgrades
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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Ignoring the universal threat made plus the absurd gap between them, which is frankly just showing that the statement wouldn't be inconsistent with the multi-galaxy scaling as God Goku was nothing at all to Beerus, should be fairly reliable for two pissed off Gods of Destruction to be universal.
So no, not a counter at all.
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Ignoring the context.
Context was Beerus and Champa were going to either severely damage or destroy the universe, just over a birthday cake, which is why Whis and Vados prevent them from fighting ever again.
The scaling chain is to assert that God Goku was not anywhere near Beerus' level, a common counter used against the manga. It's frankly supporting evidence.
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That's why I went through just how big it is. It's at least hundreds to thousands of times, possibly even exponentially higher than that.
That literally cannot exist.
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Except this is all speculation since we don't actually know by how much.
No, it does. I have Tier 8 characters who are threats to the entire world, just because you can't threaten something doesn't mean you can destroy it in a single hit.
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I don't think that's comparable, though. Beerus and Champa's claims, although vague, pointed more towards the massive damage that'd happen. It wasn't some Cell/Frieza-type "they're a threat to the universe" / "everyone in the universe" situation.
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It's not speculation when it's pretty blatantly given by the manga. Fusion has a multiplier, the god forms have gaps stated verbatim, how is this speculation? Speculation would be guessing their actual multipliers, but the gap between god and blue, the completed blue increase, among others, is stated pretty blatantly.
World and universe are nothing alike. Especially because they threatened to damage/destroy it WITH said single hit.
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There is one thing I'm unsure of actually, been meaning to bring it up but ive been kinda busy.
Correct me if I'm wrong but are we not treating them as 3-B due to being able to "destroy" and completely **** the universe in a few blows, from SSJG BOG tier characters?
As in, in just a few strikes they'd be creating high-end 3-B to baseline 3-A levels of destruction? Especially given the DBZ universe is a few times larger than our baseline.
This is relevant as, if SSJG BOG Goku can "destroy" a larger universe in a handful of blows, why wouldn't the current characters who are dozens of times stronger at minimum be at least baseline 3-A for being, well, dozens of times stronger than a character who could output 3-A levels of destruction in several blows, off the top of my head there's a 10x multiplier from the Broly movie. I would understand saying absolutely not to upscaling 3-B to 3-A in 99% of circumstances as the tier itself is ******* massive, the issue lies in that the 3-B in question is from being able to destroy and perform an alleged 3-A feat in a few attacks, it isnt like it's a few million to trillion times leap from 3-B to 3-A tier jump.
If I'm looking at this right, BOG characters are kinda high-end 3-B due to backscaling off a fraction of 3-A, and as such, either a big jump of multipliers like a few dozens times would put them into 3-A, at least baseline or we arent actually treating them as the level of 3-B the feat would suggest.
Correct me if I'm wrong but are we not treating them as 3-B due to being able to "destroy" and completely **** the universe in a few blows, from SSJG BOG tier characters?
As in, in just a few strikes they'd be creating high-end 3-B to baseline 3-A levels of destruction? Especially given the DBZ universe is a few times larger than our baseline.
This is relevant as, if SSJG BOG Goku can "destroy" a larger universe in a handful of blows, why wouldn't the current characters who are dozens of times stronger at minimum be at least baseline 3-A for being, well, dozens of times stronger than a character who could output 3-A levels of destruction in several blows, off the top of my head there's a 10x multiplier from the Broly movie. I would understand saying absolutely not to upscaling 3-B to 3-A in 99% of circumstances as the tier itself is ******* massive, the issue lies in that the 3-B in question is from being able to destroy and perform an alleged 3-A feat in a few attacks, it isnt like it's a few million to trillion times leap from 3-B to 3-A tier jump.
If I'm looking at this right, BOG characters are kinda high-end 3-B due to backscaling off a fraction of 3-A, and as such, either a big jump of multipliers like a few dozens times would put them into 3-A, at least baseline or we arent actually treating them as the level of 3-B the feat would suggest.
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Why 3-A's should be downgraded, when we literally have a scene where Beerus dances through the attacks of 11 Gods of destruction?
Also, Champa said that casually, meaning that he is sure that he has enough strenght to destroy the Universe by his own. Both are individually Universal.
Also, we have to remember that DB Universe is bigger that our own.
I agree with possibly/likely Universal like Warren and Zamasu said, but I completely disagree with the downgrade.
Also, Champa said that casually, meaning that he is sure that he has enough strenght to destroy the Universe by his own. Both are individually Universal.
Also, we have to remember that DB Universe is bigger that our own.
I agree with possibly/likely Universal like Warren and Zamasu said, but I completely disagree with the downgrade.
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I'm pretty sure just being a dozen or so times stronger then SSJG Goku is enough to warrant a baseline 3-A at minimum given they're 3-B off of completely ravaging the universe in a few strikes.
Unless they arn't 3-B off the BOG clashes?
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That's, blatantly untrue? The yield of the feat is unknown, sure, but acting like it's not encroaching on 3-A is disingenuous as **** as that spits in the face of everything we're told, point blank. This isn't even subject to debate, the level of 3-B the feat suggests and the levels of 3-B we unironically accept them as isnt something like baseline, it's "can cause huge damage to the cosmos and will destroy the universe in quick order with just a handful of clashes" tier, which isn't exactly low 3-B.
How long the fight lasted doesn't matter. because the attacks that were actually going to do the damage happened near the end (as in, the clashes that were a threat to the universe only happened near the end), everything prior to that isn't relevant to the feat, the dialogue about the feat or the context in which it is said. And not quite, if memory serves, Beerus and Goku clashed once and then Kai said "At this rate the whole universe will be destroyed", or something along those lines. What's that mean? Well, the term "this rate" is context sensitive, as it's dependent on the context and what the character is comparing to, what's the rate in question? Well, luckily we do indeed know, as he's saying that in reference to a singular clash. If one clash is enough to make him say at that rate the universe will be ******, then it's safe to assume, that, as he says, in just a few more of those clashes, the universe will indeed be ravaged beyond repair if just a single one is enough to make hi go from 1 to 100 panic mode.
At the end of the day, while we don't know the exact yield of the feat, it's undeniable to say that it wasn't gonna destroy the universe in just a small handful of clashes as that's exactly what the dialogue tells us is going to happen and it's worded in such a way that saying anything else is just being dishonest, what's that mean? Depending on how much stronger the characters get beyond SSJG Goku BOG, they're almost certainly hitting 3-A at some point, how far into 3-A? I do not know. When exactly would they hit 3-A? I do not know, though by the time Moro rolls up there's definitely been a few multipliers and at least one 10x boost. All I know is that if we're using the BOG clashes as a 3-B feat, saying that in just one clash they're causing noticeable damage to the universe as a whole and in a few amount of clashes they'd render the universe destroyed more or less as how Old Kai describes, then at some point they're upscaling into 3-A if they're 3-B in one attack and can cause 3-A levels of damage in a handful, and if not, we throw out the 3-B feat as a whole because keeping the 3-B feat but saying they don't become 3-A eventually despite only really needing to be an unknown but not a ludicrous amount times stronger is borderline lying, we can't have it both ways. Being conservative and saying it'd take 9 clashes to destroy the universe and splitting the result by half as it's a shared feat with a held back Beerus means they'd only need to be about 18x stronger than SSJG Goku to hit 3-A give or take, ignoring the DBZ universe is like, 4x larger than our baseline to begin with.
So take your pick, either we treat the feat as presented, and that they'll destroy the universe in a few clashes, and treat it as such and upscale them to 3-A whenever enough boosts happen to suggest that they become strong enough to hit with the power of a handful of clashes in one attack. Or we say **** the 3-B feat and don't use it all or ignore the dialogue and context. Using it for 3-B but ignoring how high into 3-B it is to avoid 3-A is sus imo.
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I dont have time to really debate this so I'm just going to clarify one last time and leave it at at that.
The reason why we are treating them as 3-B is due to them being able to clash and cause massive damage to the universe, notably, as stated by Old Kai, at that rate, the rate being a single clash, if it continued like that, the universe would be in extreme danger as a whole. Hard implying it'd only take a handful more clashes like that.
Ergo, if they're 3-B due to being able to destroy the universe in a handful of clashes, then in order to hit baseline 3-A, what would need to happen is for them to hit a power of where they can hit as hard as SSJG BOG Goku/Suppressed Beerus could hit multiple times albeit in one attack.
How big of a jump is that? I'm not entirely certain, but it's not as big as it's being implied here, something like a 20x jump I could see being iffy as it's a shared feat but even that's a little conservative, but something like a 50-100x jump? Well at that point saying they aren't strong enough to do what BOG Goku was gonna do it a handful of clashes in one attack is disingenuous. Though, to be fair, I actually don't know how big the jumps in the manga are, I know of one 10x boost in Broly and that's it, idk if there's any other quantifiable boosts with hard numbers backing it up, especially due to the lack of Kaioken. either way, it's a 3-B feat and eventually 3-A or neither, saying 3-B is a big tier and upscaling is basically impossible is a half truth, it's true 99% of the time, but the reason theyre 3-B here actually leaves scaling up open, the only way this wouldnt be true is if we outright say they arent 3-B for the reasons agreed on.
The reason why we are treating them as 3-B is due to them being able to clash and cause massive damage to the universe, notably, as stated by Old Kai, at that rate, the rate being a single clash, if it continued like that, the universe would be in extreme danger as a whole. Hard implying it'd only take a handful more clashes like that.
Ergo, if they're 3-B due to being able to destroy the universe in a handful of clashes, then in order to hit baseline 3-A, what would need to happen is for them to hit a power of where they can hit as hard as SSJG BOG Goku/Suppressed Beerus could hit multiple times albeit in one attack.
How big of a jump is that? I'm not entirely certain, but it's not as big as it's being implied here, something like a 20x jump I could see being iffy as it's a shared feat but even that's a little conservative, but something like a 50-100x jump? Well at that point saying they aren't strong enough to do what BOG Goku was gonna do it a handful of clashes in one attack is disingenuous. Though, to be fair, I actually don't know how big the jumps in the manga are, I know of one 10x boost in Broly and that's it, idk if there's any other quantifiable boosts with hard numbers backing it up, especially due to the lack of Kaioken. either way, it's a 3-B feat and eventually 3-A or neither, saying 3-B is a big tier and upscaling is basically impossible is a half truth, it's true 99% of the time, but the reason theyre 3-B here actually leaves scaling up open, the only way this wouldnt be true is if we outright say they arent 3-B for the reasons agreed on.
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Tbh this also apply to BoG Goku from the anime to, since I also find his 3-A rating kind sus tbh
Hasty12345
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you should probably make an anime CRT for that, it's not really relevant to this discussion
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I read them. And I don't agree. Simple as that, what more do you want me to say? (Also I'm pretty sure this point in particular wasnt brought up, similar points, but not this one exactly).
If they're 3-B for ******* the universe in a handful of clashes, then sooner or later they're going to hit 3-A if they were already not that far off it to begin with, especially when it's worded in such a way you'd be hard to press to get it any more blatant unless they outright gave the exact number of blows needed to ravage the universe (which coincidentally they did do in the anime).
Imo, if they're 3-B for the reason we're saying they are, after a few arcs they should also be 3-A due to the reason they're 3-B in the first place, if not then they're not 3-B. This isn't really a one or the other type situation, it's both or neither, honestly I don't quite care which it ends up as, but acting like they cant upscale to 3-A but they're 3-B for a feat that's only a handful of times below 3-A baseline is disingenuous.
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Your point isn't even new and has been responded to anyway. 3-B is a large tier and they are 3-B for being a threat to the universe as a whole. We don't know how much time it would have taken then to destroy the universe at that rate, but assuming it would have happened during that fight, that makes them high-end 3-B. How far into 3-B? We simply don't know. How much more do they need to become 3-A? We don't know. How much stronger they became after BoG? Again, unquantifiable and unknown.
You are pushing for a statistic by simply asking to make an assumption "hey guys idk how strong it is and I don't have any quantifiable evidence but it sure looks like they are now strong enough to be 3-A so lets just eyeball them" which can be easily refuted by me saying the opposite, which is what I just did. Bring evidence, not assumptions, if you are going to make a positive claim like that.
You are pushing for a statistic by simply asking to make an assumption "hey guys idk how strong it is and I don't have any quantifiable evidence but it sure looks like they are now strong enough to be 3-A so lets just eyeball them" which can be easily refuted by me saying the opposite, which is what I just did. Bring evidence, not assumptions, if you are going to make a positive claim like that.
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Sorry but no, anime is different from the manga itself in a lot of ways if AKM Sama's blog hasn't said enough (Especially with the "3 punches required to end it all" with the final punch having the actual power to reduce the entire universe to an empty void as the first two were just for cushioning effects with Goku practicing to cancel out the punch to minimize damage).
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I know they are different and I'm not saying that the manga version is canon to the anime, what I'm trying to say is that the reason why BoG Goku is rated 3-B for him being stated to destroy the universe in an unknown timefram should also be the same for the anime version (in short both aren't canon to each other but the universal clash feat from the Manga is the same as the anime)
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No, BoG Super Anime Goku is Universal through and through because we already know that the anime blatantly tells us that three punches was enough to destroy the universe- the first two punches were just for practicing of cancelling out the side-effects of their power while the last punch was what really carried all that firepower to instantly destroy the universe so timeframe here for the anime is irrelevant. This is how the anime massively differs from the manga in terms of the feat, even if the end result was intended to be the same, destroying the universe. This has already been discussed to hell and back previously and it was eventually accepted to be a full-out 3-A feat for anime characters, and that's not gonna change.
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Nvm forgot about what I said, this isn't the right thread to discuss this
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Well obviously not very well then.
I'm aware, that's a nonargument. This isnt like they're baseline 3-B or low end. Context and the feat itself is important, saying 3-B is a large tier and thus they cant possibly scale up could be true, but in this situation, it isnt, when you take into account the reason why they're 3-B in the first place is for being able to completely **** the universe in a handful of clashes, then however many clashes it would take destroy it is how many times below 3-A they are, and honestly, even if its a lot, the gaps and jumps in power by now is more than whatever that number would be realistically.
we do though, or at least we have a general idea, saying we dont know the exact value means we cant scale them isnt even an argument, we know it's in the higher ends of the tier, we just dont know by how much, only real issue this would cause is when they become 3-A, not if they do at all.
In a singular clash, as in, just one, Old Kai began panicking and said at that rate the whole universe would be in jeopardy. Just one single clash from them is the reference point for "at that rate". We dont know the exact number, but it's made quite clear it isnt a whole lot. And yes, just high end 3-B, I'm most certainly not saying this feat is above 3-B mind you, it's impossible for this feat to be any higher then 3-B, but that doesnt mean it isnt high end 3-B. I'm just saying after a few dozen multipliers they'd be 3-A and saying otherwise is kinda ridiculous, actually, I'm going to blatantly say it's being dishonest.
Do we know the exact value? No. But we have a general idea. How much more do they need to become 3-A? Who knows, but it's definitely not as large a gap as you're suggesting and almost certainly a threshold they passed by this point. we dont know how much stronger have they become? Actually not true, at the very least there's a solid 10x multiplier from the Broly movie. There's probably more tbh, I dont know when exactly it'd happen or it'd be safe to say it happened, but it's ludicrous to assume that they arent ridiculously above BOG SSJG Goku with an added 10x multiplier from Broly that, the high end 3-B feat that would result in the destruction of the material universe in quick order wouldnt make the characters dozens of times above the feat to be at least baseline, especially when DBZ's universe is already over 4x baseline 3-A. I mean, if I had to bet, Post Black is around the time I'd say 3-A is a possibility and post Broly is basically undeniable.
Except I'm not, that's a blatant strawman, And I even gave a solid multiplier for later on. The only assumption here is how many clashes it would have taken, and Occam's Razer says it's nowhere near the amount needed for them to not eventually become 3-A if a single clash was enough to make Old Kai think the universe was in jeopardy and at the rate they're going (read; a single attack thus far) that they'd destroy it. It wasnt going to take dozens and dozens of clashes, that goes against everything suggested, at best we're talking only a handful. And as such, whenever they get strong enough to where they're hitting with the force of a handful of SSJG Goku's attacks x2 due to being a shared feat, they'd hit 3-A, if not sooner due to being 4x. Now, I'd appreciate it if you didn't resort to strawmanning like you clearly are. the 3-B feat is only a handful of times off of 3-A, we have evidence to suggest it's only a few times due to the dialogue and context, we have quantifiable jumps in power and even a multiplier from Broly, which is 10x so we actually do have a quantifiable and known power jump.
Worse case scenario, possibly 3-A is the lowest I can go on, and even that seems ridiculous because you have to assume it would take a ridiculous amount of clashes before they destroyed the universe which isnt what was being suggested in story at all.
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If you're thinking about making a separate thread for this, you should know we've already discussed this to death several times where we ultimately concluded that the anime feat was 3-A through and through for being a lot more different than the manga feat itself and even made a rule against such threads trying to downgrade DBS anime Goku to lower than 3-A without any new evidence, and what you're suggesting is not new, it's already been tackled before and debunked.
Also, read AKM Sama's blog post before you jump in to make the thread.
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To say I was implying any such thing is incredibly disingenuous. I've consistently said it's closer to Universe level than Multi-Galaxy level, but the yield is unknown and it's not enough to substantiate Champa's vague claims.
Here's a quote showing my opinion.
While Goku and Beerus were presented as a massive threat to the universe, literally nothing suggests the destruction would take a "few hits". We literally see them perform a few hits over the course of the battle, as well as a massive energy clash, and nothing of the sort happens.
Even if early SSG Goku, who survived hits from Beerus at a similar level of power, was hundreds of times weaker than the level of power he was at while threatening the universe, the clashes weren't near the end. We know this because a visibly tired Goku and Beerus are seen attacking each other into the stratosphere (see the links in the above quote), meaning that they performed more than a "few punches" and literally nothing happened to the universe. In fact, the initial battle before the clashes is presented as being the very beginning, as Goku's power is still increasing while it's fading in the stratosphere. To say I'm being disingenuous and then advocating for/outright removing context behind the feat is highly hypocritical.
Fighters in DBZ throw dozens, if not hundreds of attacks during battles, which is actually supported by Elder Kai saying "at this rate". This is like saying one nuclear bomb is a threat to the entire because the combined nuclear arsenal of the planet would constitute an extinction-level event.
I've removed the middle section because it's a rehash of the previous point with character scaling.
If we take the feat at face value, they performed a few hits (at least 3) already in addition to an enormous energy clash. You're literally ignoring what the manga shows you.
I'll respond tomorrow, if you make a response.
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Why don’t we use inverse square law? Someone brought it up before but no one acknowledged it.
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We already did tho, that's how Chou Goku was originally 3-C+ before he got to 3-B.
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Huh? But wasn’t that for shaking and not destroying?
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We got 3-C+ for shaking from the very edge IIRC. It was definitely assumed to be violently shaken which is what boosted the value.
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Yeah but they were gonna destroy it. Not shake it to death.
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Im just saying what I see here dude. Literally over half your examples are before they actually clashed, ie, the actual feat. You're unironically using examples of before they clashed, or hell, them not even clashing to begin with and just them attacking while in full control to say it wouldnt have taken a few hits, even though the feat itself and the line suggesting it would only take a few hits more happens after that. Im honestly confused as to what you're trying to argue with those scans, only one of relevance is the energy ball scan and that lit up a bunch of planets, and mind you, that was actually the kamehameha that did that, as in, something Goku has complete control over. there's a reason why I said several clashes and not attacks (Actually I may have once or twice, oops). The clashes were the issue, not random attacks.
The clashes, there was only ever one clash, don't pluralize it if that wasnt the case. Best case scenario, two punches were thrown from what we see, and gonna be real with you, they don't really seem like clashes to me, they just seem like ambiguous undefined strikes, if there wasnt an actual clash why are you bringing them up? I didnt even think this was a point of confusion or controversy, I shouldnt have to explain why only clashes are relevant here as that's what caused the damage in the first place, what made Old Kai panic, and what he was referring to when he thought the universe was in huge jeopardy, not the standard controlled strikes.
Yes, it is presented as the beginning, nobody said otherwise. If Goku's power was increasing at the start and was fading in the stratosphere why are you using examples of a weakened Goku instead of Goku at the power he performed the clash that worried Old Kai in the first place? You see the issue with that right? Though as I said, the other attacks are a literal moot point, I've said it from the very start and I've continued to say it, Ive been very specific with my wording. Clashes. it would only take a few more clashes to destroy the universe. Other attacks? Dont know, dont care. But clashes? The thing that actually spanned the whole universe, reached the kai realm, and what made Old Kai panic and say at that rate the universe would be in jeopardy? Still stand by that and still stand by saying otherwise is disingenuous, you could consider me hypocritical or having foregone context, but only if you misinterpret my argument here. I'm strictly referring to the clashing, the feat itself, what Old kai was referring to when he actually made the claim, ie, the clash was strong enough to where if a few more of those happened, the universe would be ******, whatever else happened in that fight has no bearing on what Ive been saying.
In the anime sure or when they're drawn as such. But in this fight? We only see like a dozen or two attacks. But that's irrelevant, don't take Old Kai's statement and apply it to something it isnt about, that's actually straight up lying. When he said "at this rate", he was talking about the clash, the giant universal range shockwave, nothing else, prior to that he was just worried about the Earth but when that happened, he changed his tone from earth to "oh shit the whole universe will be screwed if this happens at that rate". That's a false analogy, because that's not the context of the line, he's very clearly talking about the giant shockwave, he even precedes that statement with talking about it directly.
Now, to be fair, I understand where I may have ****** up in explaining what my point was. But, I'm not talking about every attack they've thrown.
With the information presented to us, we know a few things.
1. When Goku and Beerus clashed, the resulting shockwave reached Elder Kai, who expressed shock and awe at it.
2. In reference to the clash, he said, if that keeps up, the whole universe will be in shit.
Ergo, the clash was strong to where if it happened a few more times, they'd have destroyed the material universe, or just about anyway. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view), it didnt happen, they never clashed again, it was a one off event in the manga, they never unleashed another big **** you giant shockwave, but we know from Old Kai that the one that did happen was strong enough to if it occurred a handful more times, there would be actual universal levels of damage happening, which mostly just tells us the clash was super high into 3-B to where a handful could cause 3-A levels of destruction, which is what I've been saying, and that after several big multiplier jumps they'd reach the level to where they're outputting that level of force several times over, which by all accounts should at least make them baseline. You get my point right? I hope I've made myself clearer here to avoid further confusion as to what I'm actually trying to argue.
i mean, at face value, they technically only did one hit, and a bunch of hits that didnt actually do anything at all and arent part of the feat (the energy blast might be though? So I may give you that one). It's not ignoring what the manga shows, as those arent actually the feat, in the same vain in the anime they fought and attacked each other but did nothing major till they clashed, the exact same thing happened here, just to a far lesser degree and only once opposed to like 3-4, of course the anime isnt the same canon, but we have old kai's statement and point of reference to gauge the severity of the clash they did do and how many more would be required, which is implied to be not a whole lot.
It's fine, if you want to respond tomorrow, tbh after I crash I'm probably not gonna be coming back to this thread for at least a few days, have some shit to do "today" and tomorrow.
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Well even the shaking went real close to 3-B, a hair's width away from it. Not like I agree with the downgrades anyway, Manga Goku is fine at 3-B (High-end 3-B, close to 3-A but which value, we don't know, all we know is that it's thoroughly high-end 3-B) and Anime Goku is fine where he is at now (Which is 3-A).
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