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Dragon Ball Super Episode Discussion Thread 64: I broke Red's Streak (huehue) and it's time for the bittersweet ending of Super.

Man the angles just keep spamming haxx, at first whiss could go back in time and now he can bring back people to life, heck you don't even need the DB anymore if someone died just call for Whiss

Aside from that great final episode, the team up between Goku and Frieza was epic and I don't need to speak about the art or the animation of course, I knew they will bring back SSJ for the final battle cuz that form is still iconic

Jiren was cool this episode, hope we see him again in the future

Goku can't use UI anymore, to be expected since UI is too OP and they want to keep Goku and Vegeta as equals
 
7th Ki'oon said:
Isn't jiren's defeat Pis? Jiren doesn't transform so Freiza shouldn't of been a problem, especially since he wasn't golden. In addition, the androids have unlimited energy, so either there's a output cap or Jiren has beyond infinite energy.

Also, without UI, shouldn't vegeta be categorically stronger then Goku? He didn't lose royal blue, so Goku isn't in the top 3 strongest or maybe 5 depending on Kale and 17.
Click to expand...
Well apparently UI Goku weakened Jiren so much to point Golden Frieza was getting the edge on him, it makes sense IMO too bad Jiren isn't Sayian who have unlimited stamina but he did one last stand but in the end lost to Goku\Frieza and 17

Nope, SSB evolution Vegeta should be around the same level as KKxx20 or maybe little stronger, Kale is weaker than SSG Goku she's barely top 10 lol

without UI Goku should be top 5 I think
 
I think Goku has 'lost' ui, the same way he 'lost' SSG, as in he is now able to use that power in base or some other form and is able to transform into an even more powerful form.
 
I think having a top 5 mortals is iffy because so many of them are super close in terms of strength and some of them have unique abilities and hax and whatnot.
 
That said if we don't allow fusions then my personal Top 5 will be-

1. Jiren

2. Vegeta

3. Toppo

4. Goku

5. A tie between several characters....


..... Though if I had to choose one then Piccolo !
 
LordWhis said:
That said if we don't allow fusions then my personal Top 5 will be-
1. Jiren

2. Vegeta

3. Toppo

4. Goku

5. A tie between several characters....


..... Though if I had to choose one then Piccolo !
Click to expand...
No way Vegeta and Toppo are above Goku. It has always been a Dragon Ball trope that Vegeta will always be 2nd best to Goku.
 
LordWhis said:
Without UI, Goku is weaker than Vegeta and Toppo
Click to expand...
No, he isn't. SSBKKx20 = SSBE. The only thing is that Goku can't maintain SSBKKx20, whereas Vegeta's new form can actually last. While this gives Vegeta an edge over Goku, this does not mean that Vegeta's AP/Speed/Durability > Goku's AP/Speed/Durability.

It only means Vegeta's form doesn't eat up his stamina as bad or as quickly.
 
Stryk3r1337 said:
LordWhis said:
@stryker:
He has been stronger on many occasions, one of which is this.
Click to expand...
Temporarily. One of the rules of Dragon Ball is that Goku is always stronger than Vegeta.
Click to expand...
Honestly, at the end of this series, Vegeta = Goku, as opposed to Vegeta playing second fiddle again. Goku can't use UI, and SSBEvolution = SSBKKx20, so...yeah.
 
LordWhis said:
@koruda:
A Vegeta who was not tapping into his form's full power was equal to kkx20 Goku.
Click to expand...
When and where did it ever state that Vegeta wasn't using SSBEvolution's full power against Jiren or Toppo? Show me the episode stillframe of the statement, and I'll believe you. >_>
 
i mean yeah...UIO is above all of them but it is involuntary which he is in vegeta and toppo's level only time limit GG (AGAIN)
 
LordWhis said:
Because he was getting stomped by Toppo and then after being motivated he stomped Toppo ?
Click to expand...
Yes. And guess who got another UI-based zenkai boost literally these last couple of episodes that would let him close that gap again? Goku.
 
Well for me this is my top 10 strongest in the tournament

1. Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku

2. Limit Breaker Jiren

3. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta

4. God of Destruction Toppo

5. Super Saiyan 2 Berserker Kefla

6. Anilaza

7. Hit

8. Android 17 w/o barriers/Super Saiyan Berserker Kale

9. Super Saiyan Berserker Kale/Android 17 w/o barriers

10. Golden Frieza
 
My top 10

1. Goku(MUI)

2. Jiren

3. Vegeta

4. Toppo

5. Kefla

6. Golden Frieza(could fight Jiren in ep 131)

7. Android 17(Same as Frieza)

8. Aniraza

9. Full speed Dyspo

10. Hit

Note: i put 17 and Golden fFrieza above Aniraza because they might get bumped to low 2C)
 
You don't get to say Goku is stronger just because. That's not a valid reasoning whatsoever. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK Goku were on par with each other at first. That same SSBE Vegeta was getting stomped by Toppo until Vegeta got a power-up that let him turn the tables and defeat Toppo. Absolutely nothing suggests Goku's stronger than Vegeta outside of UI. In fact, feats suggest that Vegeta is the stronger one sans UI, so there's nothing wrong with LordWhis' ranking.
 
FTW395 said:
Frieza > any incarnation of Kale, idk why u'd think otherwise.
Click to expand...
So basically Golden Frieza who had previously stalemated Pre-Jiren SSB Goku is stronger than a character who effortlessly defeated said Goku who was arguably holding back. Not to mention Kale actually managed to barely hold her own against Post-Jiren SSG which is already way stronger than Pre-Jiren SSB. I fail to see how Frieza > Kale unless people agree that 17 and Frieza got stronger by the end of the tournament. Which I'm still iffy about.
 
Peter1129 said:
So basically Golden Frieza who had previously stalemated Pre-Jiren SSB Goku is stronger than a character who effortlessly defeated said Goku who was arguably holding back. Not to mention Kale actually managed to barely hold her own against Post-Jiren SSG which is already way stronger than Pre-Jiren SSB. I fail to see how Frieza > Kale unless people agree that 17 and Frieza got stronger by the end of the tournament. Which I'm still iffy about.
Click to expand...
You seem to agree that Goku got stronger through the tournament as well, not too far fetched too assume others did as well. The matter of fact is that SSG Goku (the red one) was stronger than kale's controlled beserker state and this Goku is obviously weaker than Golden Frieza, who has been hinted multiple times to be SSB Goku level.
 
Bats16 said:
You don't get to say Goku is stronger just because. That's not a valid reasoning whatsoever. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK Goku were on par with each other at first. That same SSBE Vegeta was getting stomped by Toppo until Vegeta got a power-up that let him turn the tables and defeat Toppo. Absolutely nothing suggests Goku's stronger than Vegeta outside of UI. In fact, feats suggest that Vegeta is the stronger one sans UI, so there's nothing wrong with LordWhis' ranking.
Click to expand...
Saiyans get a zenkai whenever they're beaten down as bad as Goku was. After using Mastered UI, Goku was practically paralyzed--he couldn't move. And then, he could--the zenkai kicked in, giving him that boost of extra energy that was needed.

If Freeza and 17 are possibly being upgraded to the low-end of Low 2-C due to fighting and injuring a tired/friend-boost Jiren (who was still stronger than when Goku first went UI Omen against him), BASE Goku did the exact same feat. At SSBKKx20, he's *surely* equal to Vegeta SSBE, at least in terms of raw power, but I'll agree that Vegeta has the stamina edge.
 
Korudo Daio said:
Bats16 said:
You don't get to say Goku is stronger just because. That's not a valid reasoning whatsoever. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKK Goku were on par with each other at first. That same SSBE Vegeta was getting stomped by Toppo until Vegeta got a power-up that let him turn the tables and defeat Toppo. Absolutely nothing suggests Goku's stronger than Vegeta outside of UI. In fact, feats suggest that Vegeta is the stronger one sans UI, so there's nothing wrong with LordWhis' ranking.
Click to expand...
Saiyans get a zenkai whenever they're beaten down as bad as Goku was. After using Mastered UI, Goku was practically paralyzed--he couldn't move. And then, he could--the zenkai kicked in, giving him that boost of extra energy that was needed.
If Freeza and 17 are possibly being upgraded to the low-end of Low 2-C due to fighting and injuring a tired/friend-boost Jiren (who was still stronger than when Goku first went UI Omen against him), BASE Goku did the exact same feat. At SSBKKx20, he's *surely* equal to Vegeta SSBE, at least in terms of raw power, but I'll agree that Vegeta has the stamina edge.
Click to expand...
There's absolutely no evidence that was a zenkai. Goku's gotten up countless times in this tournament in that exact same fashion. Sorry, but I'm not believing that there was any zenkai without explicit evidence of it.

I don't remotely agree with that upgrade in any way, so it's not relevant whatsoever to my argument. Jiren was extremely weakened and the fact that base Goku and fianl form Freeza could even do that to him is explicit evidence of that. Otherwise, you get nonsensical and fallacious scaling like base Goku and final form Freeza being stronger than SSBKK Goku and SSBE Vegeta.
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
MUI is DBS DBH Goku. There are 4 Goku's in DBH. DBH is currently in the ToP arc. The DBS timeline is considered the correct timeline, but the one with Xeno Goku is where all the plot is. I'm pretty sure he can't enter it at will
Click to expand...
Any new feat from Xenoverse and DBH ?
 
Agree with Bats16 too bad no one who isn't an admin can form an opinion and thus aren't allowed to post in those discussions.
 
Bats16 said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
And each time he's gotten up, he's gotten noticeably stronger, is my point. Every single instance he ever used UIO, he got back up and then went on to perform stronger feats. Why would this be ANY different?


I'll concede the point about the upgrade, since it's still up in the air regardless, but to claim that Goku ended Super being weaker than Vegeta's SSBE is fallacious, and directly ignoring previous instances wherein he got noticeable power boosts after losing his stamina/losing UI.
 
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