Dragon Ball Super Anime: Fused Zamasu and the Rival Danger Scale

[Nullflowerblush]

Bored.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

God Ki.

That's not what the description is, which is that Goku's power was equal to a god, not him using the power of gods.

How Herms answers the question of his opinion on it makes it extremely clear that it's meant to be read as a claim of Goku being GoD tier.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

And he was being matched by a God of Destruction candidate not even drawing upon his godly strength?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

So? GoD Tier is just a general level of power. Even if SSBKK Goku rivalled the outright weakest GoD, that statement still holds true and there's no inconsistency to it when we've never been shown how strong the weaker GoDs are.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That's not what the description is, which is that Goku's power was equal to a god, not him using the power of gods.

Khai specifically referenced the "pressure" of his energy, which is exclusively used to refer to the overwhelming presence of God Ki.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Khai specifically referenced the "pressure" of his energy, which is exclusively used to refer to the overwhelming presence of God Ki.

Funny red herring. Completely different spectators noting him using God Ki in general has no correlation to the U9 Kai's statement, which is specifically "power rivaling the GoDs" and makes no mention of God Ki (or kami no chikara "power of the gods"). One can simultaneously describe him using God Ki while the other notes the potency of said God Ki.

Again, Herms' answer here makes it abundantly clear how it's supposed to be read.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"power rivaling the GoDs"

When did the Gods of Destruction come into the conversation?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Are you fr right now

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Very.
"Gods" refer to the Supreme Kai, too.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I find it hard to believe that a series precedent of Super Saiyan Blue's godly energy emitting a notable "pressure" is suddenly—and conveniently, I mind you—thrown out of the window in the one scene where his power is compared to the ones, opening up the possibility of Goku scaling to the Gods of Destruction, and only that scene. If the writers wanted to say something else, they would have, but they constantly and consistently refer to a "pressure".

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This should be argued in another thread. Preferably, a thread I'm not a part of.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Very.
"Gods" refer to the Supreme Kai, too.

The Supreme Kais have never been some benchmark of strength like the GoDs nor is any of them rivalling SSBKK, don't be silly.

I find it hard to believe that a series precedent of Super Saiyan Blue's godly energy emitting a notable "pressure" is suddenly—and conveniently, I mind you—thrown out of the window in the one scene where his power is compared to the ones, opening up the possibility of Goku scaling to the Gods of Destruction, and only that scene. If the writers wanted to say something else, they would have, but they constantly and consistently refer to a "pressure".

Nothing's being thrown out the window, it's just that the two statements clearly aren't correlated contextually nor semantically, and this is just a blatant red herring to the topic.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Nothing's being thrown out the window, it's just that the two statements clearly aren't correlated contextually nor semantically, and this is just a blatant red herring to the topic.

Goku goes Blue in front of Krillin → "pressure"
Vegeta goes Blue in front of Cabba → "pressure"
Vegeta goes Blue in front of Trunks → "pressure"
Goku goes Blue in front of the gods → "pressure"

How is this a red herring? This is just consistency.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why am I even arguing this still? This isn't the thread for that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Hey, look! A direct correlation between God Ki and an overwhelming "pressure"!

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, here we go fellas:

There are also other statements that contradict MZ > Beerus like Whis and Surpreme Kai saying that surpressed Jiren is stronger than anyone they have ever met and saying that he is GoD-tier ( in his surpressed state that is considered above MZ)

Whis said that Jiren could be above GoD tier so this can still exist.

If the stars themselves aren't meant to be taken literally I doubt the statements are. Vegito Blue did "approach" him in power as did KK10x Blue Goku to an extent so unless the statement was only referring to the other rivals this wouldn't be correct.

Kind of a false equivalence here because it's simply that the stars don't represent strength, whereas Fused Zamasu actually has a statement of strength.

And even then it's doubtful since it would undermine the narrative for Jiren during the TOP being a Mortal that surpasses a GOD. If Goku could already fight someone(to an extent) who a GOD couldn't even approach in power then Whis and the other GODs wouldn't be hyping up Jiren as if he were the only one this applied to especially since they already watched SSB Goku fight Toppo.

Goku is not on that level. I know this sounds weird, but let me explain.

Zamasu looked down on all mortals, which includes the likes of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks. Why should he be going all-out against such people that he views as beneath him? In addition, Zamasu was casually beating Goku and Vegeta simultaneously. Even after they gave it everything they had to destroy his Lightning of Absolution bird thingy, he proceeded to body them himself without much effort.

Also, Post-TOP Goku claims after their fight that Broly might be stronger than Beerus so Zamasu would have to be far stronger than Broly too which doesn't really make sense.

Why does Zamasu being above Broly not make sense aside from personal beliefs?

Broly can still be stronger than Beerus. In fact, this especially makes sense given SSB Gogeta stomped FP SSJ Broly.

Actually, I think Goku from the Battle of Gods Saga should be 2-C, since the Danger Scale stated that "Beerus is interested in the Super Saiyan God, with power on par with his own".

I know you've been very sarcastic this whole thread, which is rather unproductive mind you, but this is just very wrong. Beerus's premonition had told him that the Super Saiyan God would have power on par with his own, which is what this is referring to.

We know this to not have actually been the case.

If this is a threat danger scale, wouldn't Zamasu, who's whole plan is basically purging the cosmos be above Beerus and everyone else by default as none of them actually actively want to destroy the cosmos and have their own personal plans, like Frieza wants to conquer, Beerus is wish washy as **** but he doesn't want to destroy EVERYTHING (because he'll get in shit).

I have addressed this in the OP. It's not the danger level that's of any concern to me (otherwise I'd be suggesting Goku Black is above Beerus and I don't need to explain why that's wrong), but rather, Fused Zamasu's statement of being so strong that others cannot approach him

He lost in a beam struggle against Trunks/Vegeta and was getting pummeled by SSJB Goku, so I disagree. Beerus was still acknowledged as stronger than SSJB Goku and Frieza as of the Universal Survival Saga, so I don’t think it’d make sense for Goku to have surpassed him back in the Future Trunks Arc.





I also don’t think Jiren’s hype about being stronger than Beerus would make sense if Beerus got power creeped mid-DBS.

Alright now for the big boy stuff.

In all honesty, I find this whole thing to be very weird. As said before, Fused Zamasu was casually beating both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks is on par with those two. So, he casually beats those two... but then Vegeta + Trunks are suddenly able to overpower his Holy Wrath? I mean even considering the fact that Fused Zamasu wasn't really hurt by the attack, instead being angered by it, I'm not sure how much sense that makes. This is especially the case for SSB Goku doing the same feat by himself. I know he used so much power that it took out his arms, but that's still very odd to me.

Though, at the same time, Zamasu didn't seem very hurt, and was more so shocked (especially because he was mutating).

"But Zamasu is immortal, so he wouldn't be hurt regardless." Technically that's true, until you realize two things:

1. He has shown pain before, such as when he was fighting Vegito Blue.
2. His immortality is inferior to Future Zamasu's because of the conflict between Future Zamasu's immortality and Goku Black's mortality.

So not only does this sequence not make much sense to begin with, but Zamasu wasn't even really hurt by SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, or SSR Trunks.

Yeah, he even mentions among gods directly.

That + the other Supreme Kais statement should place as him as being a GoD tier opponent.

This is good support. Thanks for this.

Funny how statements like this for Fused Zamasu and for Jiren both came from Vegeta.

"The form Goku Black and Zamasu reach after merging via the Potara. He is so strong that others cannot even approach him."

Tbh I also think this is hyperbole because it's demonstratively false since it's talking about his power level, but if it's not applicable to the anime I guess there's not an argument to be had then.

If you're saying it's false because of Jiren, please note that this was put out before the Universe Survival Saga began, so Jiren is a non-factor here.

Also, I'm aware of the argument involving the legitimacy of the source. I'll get to that in a bit, I wanna look into it a little more before formulating my response.

 

[StekFence]

Why does Zamasu being above Broly not make sense aside from personal beliefs?

Cos Jiren is casually above zamasu. And broly bodies Post Top blues.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why does Zamasu being above Broly not make sense aside from personal beliefs?

Pretty sure Jiren is stronger than Zamasu and both Blue Goku and Vegeta were around his level at the end of the tournament
And we know that Base Gogeta is around Blue Goku and Vegeta's power
Broly is stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta

Edit: I have been ninjaed. What a tragedy

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, Broly being stronger than Beerus can still exist with this scaling. In fact, it's very supported.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Jiren is obviously stronger than Zamasu.

What i still don't get is... Why tf is Fused Zamasu weaker than Infinite Zamasu?!

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Goku goes Blue in front of Krillin → "pressure"
Vegeta goes Blue in front of Cabba → "pressure"
Vegeta goes Blue in front of Trunks → "pressure"
Goku goes Blue in front of the gods → "pressure"

How is this a red herring? This is just consistency.

Ok? It’s a red herring because it’s irrelevant drivel to the point and isn’t correlated to the U9 Kai’s statement which is referring to something completely different in saying that Goku’s power itself rival gods. They can simultaneously observe multiple phenomena (in this case, the fact Goku can use God Ki at all and then his level in general), doesn’t somehow mean that they’re all talking about the same thing when they aren’t.

I’ll say it again, when asked about his opinion it, Herms himself very clearly answers it as though it’s describing his power being equal to the gods, not the prospect of him using god ki in general.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Herms isn't the ultimate authority on the Dragon Ball franchise. He is an experienced translator fluent in Japanese, and he gave his opinions on that single line of dialogue, not on the scene itself. As everybody should know by this point, Japanese is a very context-reliant language, and that context is missing from the tweet and Herms' translation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Jiren is obviously stronger than Zamasu.

What i still don't get is... Why tf is Fused Zamasu weaker than Infinite Zamasu?!

I'm actually not sure tbh, I think this was done mainly because of the Low 2-C feat, but do we actually have an indication that one is stronger than the other?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Herms isn't the ultimate authority on the Dragon Ball franchise. He is an experienced translator fluent in Japanese, and he gave his opinions on that single line of dialogue, not on the scene itself. As everybody should know by this point, Japanese is a very context-reliant language, and that context is missing from the tweet and Herms' translation.

His opinion on what it means =/= what it says. Translation and what something literally says isn't opinionated. He acknowledges that it says Goku rivals GoDs, his opinion was whether it was an exaggeration or that it only refers to one GoD, not the fact that it does indeed literally say he rivals a GoD.

There's no left out necessary context to distort extremely straightforward wording like "power equal to a GoD" into anything but. Other characters describing different things is just that.

 

[Chariot190]

I have addressed this in the OP. It's not the danger level that's of any concern to me (otherwise I'd be suggesting Goku Black is above Beerus and I don't need to explain why that's wrong), but rather, Fused Zamasu's statement of being so strong that others cannot approach him

Perhaps, but at that point, you shouldn't have even mentioned the stars to begin with.

Though, the statement is demonstrably false, we have Goku, Vegeta, and even Trunks take legitimate serious blows from him and not die, only to get far, far stronger, and thanks to Kaioken, we have actual minimums of 10s of times for power jumps, and yet despite getting tens of times stronger between Zamasu and the end of the ToP, Goku only surpasses Beerus in UI3 according to other supplemental material, so there's even more fucky scaling going on. and broly just ***** it up some more

We also have Vegito beating his ass down, so the statement is demonstrably false, if he was unapproachable in power we wouldn't have Vegito kicking his ass into the dirt, aka, approaching and moreover surpassing his power, or Trunks Spirit Sword obliterating him.

It's a bad statement that's contradicted by the source material a bunch, it's not that uncommon when it comes to anime or manga supplementals, it just be the way the world the works.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I understand people not agreeing with Zamasu upscaling from Beerus, but is Vegeta's statement not able to be used or are people just focusing on the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Perhaps, but at that point, you shouldn't have even mentioned the stars to begin with.

Though, the statement is demonstrably false, we have Goku, Vegeta, and even Trunks take legitimate serious blows from him and not die, only to get far, far stronger, and thanks to Kaioken, we have actual minimums of 10s of times for power jumps, and yet despite getting tens of times stronger between Zamasu and the end of the ToP, Goku only surpasses Beerus in UI3 according to other supplemental material, so there's even more fucky scaling going on. and broly just ***** it up some more

We also have Vegito beating his ass down, so the statement is demonstrably false, if he was unapproachable in power we wouldn't have Vegito kicking his ass into the dirt, aka, approaching and moreover surpassing his power, or Trunks Spirit Sword obliterating him.

It's a bad statement that's contradicted by the source material a bunch, it's not that uncommon when it comes to anime or manga supplementals, it just be the world the works.

The point of the statement is that it shows Fused Zamasu is above everyone else listed on the Rival Danger Scale (Vegeta, Beerus, Champa, Golden Frieza, Hit, and Goku Black). When supplemented by Vegeta's statement that he's never felt anyone let off energy like Fused Zamasu's, it's clear that Fused Zamasu surpasses Beerus

 

[Veronica]

iirc fighting two-half 2-Cs wouldn't be baseline 2-C

But if it could be proved that Jiren was stronger than two half 2-Cs combined that would probably work. That's how Whis got his rating after all.

Jiren no sold a combined beam attack of Goku and Vegeta

 

[CloverDragon03]

Jiren no sold a combined beam attack of Goku and Vegeta

Yeah he withstood a combined Final Flash and Kamehameha from SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta

 

[Braking]

neutral. for now. though i feel like im towards agreeing.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Zamasu looked down on all mortals, which includes the likes of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks. Why should he be going all-out against such people that he views as beneath him?

Zamasu viewed the Saiyans as enough of a threat to his ultimate goal that he resorted to Fusion. In fact, his decision to resort to Fusion, his final trump card, in the first place was in response to Trunks' near-successful use of the Evil Containment Evil, which fully solidified to Zamasu that being careless and unconcerned with the war at hand would lose to his untimely demise. Why only after fusing would Zamasu suddenly drop his stance and start going 5% from his previous 120%? Like, Fusion Zamasu viewed the situation as fit to utilize his Barrier of Light and Wall of Light against Goku and Vegeta, and he expressed shock when they bulldozed through his Absolute Lightning and his Wall of Light. When that failed, he delivered his Holy Wraith, and even declared his own invincibility after Vegeta and Trunks managed to push back against his blast. In the end, the two overpowered Zamasu, and he was visibly and audibly shaken and strained (and furious) after defending against their attack, reminiscent of the Kaio-ken x20 Kamekameha against Frieza. After that failed, Zamasu was driven to the point of deciding to erase the three right then and there, but was ultimately completely overpowered by Goku, even after increasing his power and resisting even more fiercely against Goku, and was damaged to the point that his body began to fall apart.

Zamasu was going all-out, and he was squarely outmatched in the end by the ever-increasing power of the Saiyans.

I know you've been very sarcastic this whole thread, which is rather unproductive mind you

so say you.

Also, again...

"We’re looking back on all the rivals who have traded blows with Goku, while displaying the V-Jump editorial department’s own personal degrees of danger for them."

V-Jump does not even work on the Super anime, Toei Animation does. V-Jump publishes the manga.

 

[Spinoirr]

Basically fused zamasu is stronger then the beerus and champa that did the half 2-C feat and not beerus at full power

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Basically fused zamasu is stronger then the beerus and champa that did the half 2-C feat and not beerus at full power

That's what I'm arguing for. Not sure if Clover is doing the same thing but this makes the most sense. Also the fact this supports the idea that GoDs in general (not high-ends like Champa or Beerus) are capable of this which makes a lot of the Tournament of Power scaling much more consistent for this level.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Zamasu viewed the Saiyans as enough of a threat to his ultimate goal that he resorted to Fusion. In fact, his decision to resort to Fusion, his final trump card, in the first place was in response to Trunks' near-successful use of the Evil Containment Evil, which fully solidified to Zamasu that being careless and unconcerned with the war at hand would lose to his untimely demise. Why only after fusing would Zamasu suddenly drop his stance and start going 5% from his previous 120%? Like, Fusion Zamasu viewed the situation as fit to utilize his Barrier of Light and Wall of Light against Goku and Vegeta, and he expressed shock when they bulldozed through his Absolute Lightning and his Wall of Light. When that failed, he delivered his Holy Wraith, and even declared his own invincibility after Vegeta and Trunks managed to push back against his blast. In the end, the two overpowered Zamasu, and he was visibly and audibly shaken and strained (and furious) after defending against their attack, reminiscent of the Kaio-ken x20 Kamekameha against Frieza. After that failed, Zamasu was driven to the point of deciding to erase the three right then and there, but was ultimately completely overpowered by Goku, even after increasing his power and resisting even more fiercely against Goku, and was damaged to the point that his body began to fall apart.

Yes, I'm aware that Goku Black and Future Zamasu were threatened enough by this point to resort to fusion, but the same cannot be said about Fused Zamasu, as now he far surpassed the trio. In fact, that arrogance is why he was shocked that Goku and Vegeta even broke through Lightning of Absolution to begin with. And again, I must reiterate, he was casually beating Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks (the latter of which he was casually beating in the same sequence that he used Galick Gun against his Holy Wrath and the whole Father-Son Galick Gun happened). I can understand the Kaioken x20 Kamehameha example with Frieza as a comparison, but the thing is, Zamasu showed zero pain or any sign of injury. Which, again, isn't fully because of his immortality given that his immortality is inferior to Future Zamasu's and he himself has shown pain.

As for Goku, even after his body destabilized, he was hardly damaged by the Kamehameha. His shock primarily came from the destabilization of his own body, which is what enabled Goku to land a few hits to begin with (and even then, he quickly recovered and was going to heavily damage Goku had he not used Kaioken to shake Zamasu off).

If Zamasu was truly outmatched, fusion wouldn't have been necessary. Even if you say it was because of his fluctuating immortality, he was still able to fight Vegito Blue relatively equally and harm him on multiple occasions.

 

[CloverDragon03]

so say you.

Also, again...

Well yeah, I very much see the sarcasm and it's not really contributing anything. The Super Saiyan God thing is just a bad example.

And I mentioned before I'd get to the V-Jump thing. I'm looking into it (though at the same time, I'm not gonna stay on the thread at all times, like come on I need some time for myself )

 

[Nullflowerblush]

he was still able to fight Vegito Blue relatively equally and harm him on multiple occasions.

Because he became more powerful. Gowasu confirmed he became more powerful.

 

[Chariot190]

The point of the statement is that it shows Fused Zamasu is above everyone else listed on the Rival Danger Scale (Vegeta, Beerus, Champa, Golden Frieza, Hit, and Goku Black). When supplemented by Vegeta's statement that he's never felt anyone let off energy like Fused Zamasu's, it's clear that Fused Zamasu surpasses Beerus

That... Is not an argument, you can't just say "it's clear that it is because [...]", and then ignore the twenty blatant contradictions to it.
And no, either his power is unapproachable, or it isn't, nowhere does it say it's relegated to just that scale, the statement is in general, and yet, on screen, we see Vegito beat his ass so the statement is already suspect. But when you factor in the numerous contradictions to it, it's nothing but an inconsistent line that we wouldn't take even if it was true because that ain't even Toei.

Also Vegeta is full of shit, he's never even seen a legit Beerus fight at that point, using that line to scale anyone above Beerus has just as much validity as scaling people above Whis, because Vegeta has never seen either go all out, and the alleged 2-C feat in question didn't even happen, it was something that would've if they got out of control but they were stopped before that could occur, aka Vegeta didn't witness them going all out.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because he became more powerful. Gowasu confirmed he became more powerful.

Nowhere in this does Gowasu say he got stronger. He just says that they need to hit Zamasu with even greater power than before, which makes sense given that even when his immortality was destabilizing, he wasn't taking much damage from the Saiyans

That... Is not an argument, you can't just say "it's clear that it is because [...]", and then ignore the twenty blatant contradictions to it.

Twenty demonstrably false "contradictions"

And no, either his power is unapproachable, or it isn't, nowhere does it say it's relegated to just that scale, the statement is in general, and yet, on screen, we see Vegito beat his ass so the statement is already suspect. But when you factor in the numerous contradictions to it, it's nothing but an inconsistent line that we wouldn't take even if it was true because that ain't even Toei.

It says "others" cannot approach him. What else would "others" be in this context given that it's about all of Goku's enemies up to this point?

Also Vegeta is full of shit, he's never even seen a legit Beerus fight at that point, using that line to scale anyone above Beerus has just as much validity as scaling people above Whis, because Vegeta has never seen either go all out, and the alleged 2-C feat in question didn't even happen, it was something that would've if they got out of control but they were stopped before that could occur, aka Vegeta didn't witness them going all out.

Beerus and Champa were letting out enough energy to cause the 2-C feat to happen to begin with, it's just that Whis and Vados stopped them before things could get to that point. As such, Vegeta felt that energy from Beerus and Champa

 

[CloverDragon03]

Anyways I'mma be busy for the rest of the night so please don't expect any further responses from me until tomorrow

 

[Chariot190]

Twenty demonstrably false "contradictions"

Honestly, give or take yeah. That's what everyone has been telling ya.

It says "others" cannot approach him. What else would "others" be in this context given that it's about all of Goku's enemies up to this point?

Others, as in literally everyone? Like "other people"? This is a non-argument, ya gotta prove "others" is specifically just a very small subset of characters and not being used like, the word is usually used.

Beerus and Champa were letting out enough energy to cause the 2-C feat to happen to begin with, it's just that Whis and Vados stopped them before things could get to that point. As such, Vegeta felt that energy from Beerus and Champa

That is untrue, they barely even got to the point of destroying the room they were in, it was escalating, and they stopped it. Vegeta didn't witness the end of the escalation, aka the 2-C feat, ergo, Vegeta saying funny line doesn't implicate Zamasu scaling to Beerus, and if it did, it'd be contradicted down the line anyway. And Vegeta's line has absolutely nothing to do with the OP statement, they're two separate things and no, it doesn't support the OP as the OP isn't even from people who have a say to begin with.